Bride wanting a refund..

[MarkAnthonyPhotography]

Here is the situation,

I booked this couple a year in advance to their wedding. We've done Engagements and ordered all the good save the date crap, magnets, invations, etc. It's 2 months till their wedding and she calls me to say they may not get married and would like to get her money back. She signed up for a $3000 package and has paid half already. Now in my contract it states clearly that in order for refund of moneies couple must submit a change/cancellation of date within 6 months of saved date and that the deposit would not be refunded but any payment made towards balance would be.
Would it be unethical to not refund her money?? I believe by contract she is obligated for the remaining balance, but I'm willing to write that off to be a nice guy. We've turned other couples away on this date because it was going to be a very big southern wedding.
Any thoughts??

[elysium]

If it is outside of the contract that she has signed, I say keep the money. You have taken time to book time for her and arrange things for that date. You could have taken on other work for the date she booked.

I would remind her of the terms to which she agreed too and if you wanted, you could claim the rest but you are choosing to write it off. If she does want to take it to a small claims court or solicitors, claim all the money.

[hawk911]

yeah- I'd say if she signed a contract, stick to it. Keep the deposit, as your contract states, and tell her you're willing to let her keep the remaining balance.

[Stevie@JC]

I too agree with Hawk keep the deposit or an amount that covers your costs an let her have the remaining balance, after all she agreed to it when she signed the contract. You are not being unethical as you have had to turn work away on the date of her wedding

[MarkAnthonyPhotography]

Thanks for all the input. It's always a tuff position to be put in. This is the first time its happened to me, but I'm sure it won't be the last.

[photoguy6405]

You're certainly under no obligation, ethical or otherwise, to return any money.

You could return some or all if you happen to fill the time with another wedding, but if you wanted to do so I would not tell her in advance. Saying anything would just place the expectation in her head.

[Stevie@JC]

Thanks for all the input. It's always a tuff position to be put in. This is the first time its happened to me, but I'm sure it won't be the last.


It sure is a tuff position to be put in but at the end of the day your running a business a contract is a contract

[hairy_moth]

Here is the situation,

... Now in my contract it states clearly that in order for refund of moneies couple must submit a change/cancellation of date within 6 months of saved date and that the deposit would not be refunded but any payment made towards balance would be.

I hope this is not the wording in the contract.. "prior to 6 months of saved date" would be better. 3 months is "within 6 months".

[imahawki]

I would say either keep the $3000 or pro-rate it, i.e. give her 2/6 (1/3 or $1,000) back. Either way I wouldn't make her pay the full balance but I also would not give her a full refund. This is where small businesses shoot themselves in the foot. If you signed a contract with Sprint, they don't just let you out of it because you changed your mind.

[Joelene]

I agree, you are not obligated to return any money. I would just chalk up the final 1500.00 as a loss. Possibly offer her a 50% of what she paid credit. She can use it, or give it as a gift to someone. That would be being overly nice.

If she is difficult, pleasantly remind her of the contract she signed the $750.00 Gift Certificate is just that, a gift for her troubles and that you have lost money due to her cancellation because you have turned away business and will probably not get book at this point now..

[hawk911]

A wedding I shot last weekend actually had a different tog, and then only way they could back out of the contract was if the tog found another wedding on that same day, otherwise they were olbigated to full the initial contract. You could do the same, if you feel so inclined.

[danameless]

I agree with the others and would keep the money, especially if you turned business away because of her date. Look at it from her perspective, she would want you to honor the contract you signed, so why should you expect any less from her?

[SoccerRef]

My contract reads that the deposit is not refundable unless I am able to rebook that date. And ALL expenses incurred by me will be detailed and removed from the deposit prior to returning the balance. All of those "expenses" are considered at Retail Price. So, for example, the deposit totals $500. If I have already shot the engagement shoot ($125 per my price list), I will refund $375 ONLY if I am able to rebook that date.

If I can't rebook the date, then I keep the deposit. (At least that's the way the contract reads. I have never had to utilize that part of my contract yet, and hope I never have to, but...)

[DennisW1]

Here is the situation,

I booked this couple a year in advance to their wedding. We've done Engagements and ordered all the good save the date crap, magnets, invations, etc. It's 2 months till their wedding and she calls me to say they may not get married and would like to get her money back. She signed up for a $3000 package and has paid half already. Now in my contract it states clearly that in order for refund of moneies couple must submit a change/cancellation of date within 6 months of saved date and that the deposit would not be refunded but any payment made towards balance would be.
Would it be unethical to not refund her money?? I believe by contract she is obligated for the remaining balance, but I'm willing to write that off to be a nice guy. We've turned other couples away on this date because it was going to be a very big southern wedding.
Any thoughts??

Your contract terms seem farily well laid out, you are completely within your legal and ethical rights to stick to them. If holding this date has cost you other business then I guess it's up to you what you feel comfortable returning.
Maybe make an offer something like, if you are able to salvage the date with another wedding then you'll offer a more generous refund. If not, and you're left sitting at home that day then your contract terms stand.
I can agree with your feelings about not pursuing the remaining balance, but if it were me I'd not be quite as willing to just return the money already paid for the date unless I could fill it with another booking.

[nicksan]

Sounds like you are trying to be nice about this and I commend you for that.
However she did sign the contract and you actually did turn down other couples for this date so that is opportunity lost because she had the date booked.

I guess if I were in your shoes (and I am not, b/c I am not a pro) and if I am always booked (meaning, you run a good business and ALWAYS have couples that are booked) then I would definitely consider it an opportunity lost and try to get as much out of it as possible. Otherwise, if I am only occasionally booked, I would pro-rate any work done already, maybe add a little extra for the trouble, then call it a day.

But I think it's totally up to you. Looks like you would also be in the right keeping everything too.

I guess it's a little tough to act as the "enforcer" when you run a small business.

[noxcuses1]

I think you should stick to your terms of the contract. What good is a contract if both parties don't stick to the terms? Not only that but what does she my by "may not" get married?? That's not really your problem.

IF, however, you are able to book another wedding/event on that day, then it would be the right thing to do to refund her the difference minus your costs/expenses.

[Trey T]

Agree w/ every words nicksan said.

[airfrogusmc]

When I shot weddings I had this happen twice. I called all the hotel to see if they had canceled with them and I also called the florist and in both cases they indeed cancelled. In both cases I was the only one in the mix that returned the all the deposits. In 3 of the 4 people involved I got wedding down the road the two brides and one of the grooms and it was because I returned their deposits though my contract clearly stated I was to keep the deposit. In one case I booked the date the other cancelled one a couple of weeks before.

I guess my point is sometimes these things can work out better in the long run. I wound up making so much more money on the three weddings of those that came back than I would have if I would have kept the deposits.

Its your call. I think I would still give back the deposit if indeed they cancelled their wedding. Maybe tell them if you rebook the day you will give it back? Tough call and you're certainly right if you keep the deposit.

[Zansho]

Here's one thing that I really grate on. The word "deposit" implies that they can get their money back, as a lot of other businesses use a deposit as a sort of collateral for services/goods, and if the other side fulfills their terms, they receive the deposit back.

Get rid of that word in there, and replace it with retainer or "booking fee" and make sure it explicitly states "non-refundable upon signing of contract." or something along those lines. You lost money, you're out $1,500 and material costs.

Once you bend over, you'll develop that reputation. Stick to the contract, and stay with it. I can understand for extreme situations, like maybe the fiancee or FOG or MOB died in a car accident the previous day or whatever.

Did you go over the contract with them when they signed it? You BOTH should read it together and explain/clarify any questions they have for any future prospective clients.

[stathunter]

My contract is written as a "retainer" and not a deposit - and the retainer is non-refundable to secure the date. I personally have only refunded this one time - it was when the groom was killed in a car accident a month before the wedding - I did not hesitate in that case (other than to call around and verify that this was the truth) -- personally I would have a hard time refunding in the case that the wedding was called off so soon to the date.
Remember this is a business - and you need to make business decisions here - not based on emotion.

[SoccerRef]

Zansho makes a good point... "Did you go over the contract with them when they signed it?"

Not that doing so makes it any more or less valid, but I always sit with both the Bride and Groom AND whoever is paying me if it is someone other than the Bride and Groom and I go over every part of the contract. I also always provide a copy to them BEFORE that meeting so they can read and come with their questions.

[photoguy6405]

Here's one thing that I really grate on. The word "deposit" implies that they can get their money back, as a lot of other businesses use a deposit as a sort of collateral for services/goods, and if the other side fulfills their terms, they receive the deposit back.

Get rid of that word in there, and replace it with retainer or "booking fee" and make sure it explicitly states "non-refundable upon signing of contract." or something along those lines. You lost money, you're out $1,500 and material costs.
As a general comment I agree with this. "Deposit" does imply a reasonable expectation of getting the money back regardless of any other wording.

Personally, I see such wording as dishonest and I wonder what other spin they're trying to get by me.

[snails]

Remember this is a business - and you need to make business decisions here - not based on emotion.

On the other hand, you are doing business with people. Referrals and repeat business are based on emotion. It may be penny wise and pound foolish to forget this.

[airfrogusmc]

On the other hand, you are doing business with people. Referrals and repeat business are based on emotion. It may be penny wise and pound foolish to forget this.

I can tell you personally it worked out (refund) for me. So I lost 2 deposits but gained 3 full weddings and all were very good. legally you;re in the right to keep the deposit but if I found out they had cancelled the wedding and BROKE UP then I would be inclined to refund but it all depends on circumstance.

[cdifoto]

"may not get married" isn't the same as "are not getting married"

Color me cynical but I think they're just trying to save some cash. I'd tell them to call me back if and when they cancel their wedding. Until then it's still on.

[LBaldwin]

I am with both CDI and Airfrog on this, but I would add one other notion to the mix, if the event is actually dead, then return all but your expenses and labor for that ;portion. But offer the option of a credit for future work, portraits, family events, or whatever. You never know she may need a new portait for social websites now.. lol.

I don't really think that it will lead to more direct work down the road, airfrog was either good or lucky or maybe both. But you never know.

[MarkAnthonyPhotography]

thanks everyone. I'm definitly going to reword our contract. I do go over the contract in detail with each client prior to signing it. I feel for her going through all this so close to the event. I can only imagine the loss she has already incrued with venues, caterers, etc. We emailed her stating we could not refund any money that has already been paid, but would not hold her liable for the remaining balance. We did offer her to hold the money untill Dec 2010 in case they "work things out", or she happens to find someone else to marry ;)
We also offered her to "gift" the $1500 already paid to someone that she knows that may be getting married soon. Just trying to keep any bad feelings out of her mouth so she doesn't go around bad mouthing us.

[picsofmykids]

"may not get married" isn't the same as "are not getting married"

Color me cynical but I think they're just trying to save some cash. I'd tell them to call me back if and when they cancel their wedding. Until then it's still on.
I thought that same thing

[nicksan]

thanks everyone. I'm definitly going to reword our contract. I do go over the contract in detail with each client prior to signing it. I feel for her going through all this so close to the event. I can only imagine the loss she has already incrued with venues, caterers, etc. We emailed her stating we could not refund any money that has already been paid, but would not hold her liable for the remaining balance. We did offer her to hold the money untill Dec 2010 in case they "work things out", or she happens to find someone else to marry ;)
We also offered her to "gift" the $1500 already paid to someone that she knows that may be getting married soon. Just trying to keep any bad feelings out of her mouth so she doesn't go around bad mouthing us.

Sounds reasonable to me. You own a business but you are still a human being and can't help but feel for her pain.(if it is true!)

But at the same time, you do have to manage your business and the potential opportunity lost on that specific date.

Hopefully you are able to fill that date or this is not a major hit for your business.

Sounds like you have a very reasonable outlook on things. It's rather refreshing actually.

:D

[SwitchBlade]

IMHO the word deposit does imply that it won't be refunded. I can't think of any deposit I've paid that has been refundable if I had to cancel.

TBH the way they said it would imply to me that they want to cut back costs and have likely found someone else to do it on the cheap.

[airfrogusmc]

You can also keep the deposit now and wave it if she remarries but I always treat clients the way I would like to be treated.

I know if my daughter and her fiancé broke up and I got my deposit back and the photographer was sensitive enough to return my deposit I doubt when/if she was getting married again we would even consider anyone else.

I think in both of those cases I mentioned I was the only one that returned the deposit. It paid off for me and in both of those circumstances I feel it was the right thing to do.

[snails]

You can also keep the deposit now and wave it if she remarries but I always treat clients the way I would like to be treated.

I know if my daughter and her fiancé broke up and I got my deposit back and the photographer was sensitive enough to return my deposit I doubt when/if she was getting married again we would even consider anyone else.

I think in both of those cases I mentioned I was the only one that returned the deposit. It paid off for me and in both of those circumstances I feel it was the right thing to do.

This is consideration has become too infrequent in today's corporate world.

[OdiN1701]

If you're not hurting for business, I would return the money, minus the costs of the engagement sessions and any other product that you ordered (save the date etc. stuff) and I bet that pays off for you more than keeping it would.

Just include an itemized bill that shows the deductions from their deposit for these items, and I'm sure they will understand that, and be happy that they got most back.

[Karl Johnston]

If your contract is solid then keep the cash, by all means..forget about helping people out just a bit, you've done their job and its time for them to do theirs.

I am having to take someone to small claims court because they have "decided" that despite the 3-week extension I gave out of heart, despite the sob stories about living on EI which were bull****, despite having more than enough money now and stating it...client no longer wants the work I did for them so they "decided" they wouldnt pay.

Doesn't happen in a restaurant, doesn't happen in a dental office so why should it happen with us?

Contract states you pay...so you pay.

Fill out a complaint with small claims if she's not coughing up, I have no more sympathy for people who try to con us out of honest good work done.
----
That said and out of the way, bit of my own rant there not related to this at all...
Reading into this a bit more I would forget about the full amount. She's not getting married and that was what they deposit was for..to retain the date. I wouldn't refund the deposit, but I would forget about the other 1500$.

Explain to her about how this works...the deposit is for booking the date, and planning on your part, and that your contract illustrates this, and that she will be forgiven for the other half of the 3000 but I would warn against falling for any bleeding heart stories like I did..its just a bad road, man, and none of our business.

Best to be friendly, empathetic but don't get involved. I'm a bit biased in that regard, and a bit cold...but still, you have a deposit for a reason and that's for a reason like this.

[nuffi]

Seriously... I Think yo ushould just try to look at it from her POV for a sec... I don't know the circumstances but it looks like her life plans have just fallen apart. This is a very very stressful time for her.

If you really don't htink you can fill that weekend with something that will pay some bills, and you don' think you'd have a great time with a weekend off, then be really gentle when you explain to her that she's not getting any cash back.

Personally, I'd feel like I need to create more demand if I can't fill my time with 6 months to find a booking.

[imahawki]

Seriously... I Think yo ushould just try to look at it from her POV for a sec... I don't know the circumstances but it looks like her life plans have just fallen apart. This is a very very stressful time for her. Then why take a deposit/have a contract at all? Under what circumstances would you actually keep the deposit if not this circumstance? If the couple just says they changed their mind? How do you know that's not what happened here?

[SwitchBlade]

Sod her point of view. She paid a deposit, she knew the arrangement, now she's deciding "she might not get married". Well that's nice but not his problem.

Many years ago as a teenager I DJed and one evening a mate double booked and passed his gig on to me, after consulting with the bride and groom, establishing what they wanted, etc, I went and did the gig, kept people on the dance floor most of the night, all happy chappies. Got my cheque at the end of the night, packed up and went home. Paid the cheque in the bank and it bounced. After the event the couple cancelled all the cheques for it as they were too tight to pay, when I called them to find out why the cheque had bounced they said I'd done a bad job, yet they were prepared to pay me on the night.

That was when I learned to take cash and not to trust a client. Deeply cynical I know but such is life.

[photoguy6405]

Sod her point of view. She paid a deposit, she knew the arrangement, now she's deciding "she might not get married". Well that's nice but not his problem.

Many years ago as a teenager I DJed and one evening a mate double booked and passed his gig on to me, after consulting with the bride and groom, establishing what they wanted, etc, I went and did the gig, kept people on the dance floor most of the night, all happy chappies. Got my cheque at the end of the night, packed up and went home. Paid the cheque in the bank and it bounced. After the event the couple cancelled all the cheques for it as they were too tight to pay, when I called them to find out why the cheque had bounced they said I'd done a bad job, yet they were prepared to pay me on the night.

That was when I learned to take cash and not to trust a client. Deeply cynical I know but such is life.
All it takes is one to screw things up for everyone else.

[RDKirk]

We've done Engagements and ordered all the good save the date crap, magnets, invations, etc. It's 2 months till their wedding and she calls me to say they may not get married and would like to get her money back. She signed up for a $3000 package and has paid half already. Now in my contract it states clearly that in order for refund of moneies couple must submit a change/cancellation of date within 6 months of saved date and that the deposit would not be refunded but any payment made towards balance would be.

Something to be careful of in your contracts: In several states of the US, courts consider a "deposit" or "retainer" to be fully refundable if the client has not actually received any product or service, regardless of what the contract says.

What is more safe is to have specified what service the pre-payment actually covers. This can include "liquidated damages" if by saving the date you had to turn away other business, but your contract should characterize it as such. It would also include things like consultation time, planning time, having purchased anything that can only be used for that job, et cetera.

But having said "deposit is non-refundable" in the contract is not necessarily solid protection in court.

[RDKirk]

That was when I learned to take cash and not to trust a client. Deeply cynical I know but such is life.

You don't have to take cash, but just be sure you've cashed the check before you've done the work.

[SwitchBlade]

All it takes is one to screw things up for everyone else.

Unfortunately it's not just one though, well one for me, but over the years afterward I spoke to other DJs that had had people do the same to them with cheques. Always take cash because you can't reverse a cash transaction.

EDIT @ RDKirk: IIRC a cheque can be cancelled upto a month after it has "cleared". At least here in the UK it can. Similarly with credit/debit card transactions.

[cdifoto]

Unfortunately it's not just one though, well one for me, but over the years afterward I spoke to other DJs that had had people do the same to them with cheques. Always take cash because you can't reverse a cash transaction.

EDIT @ RDKirk: IIRC a cheque can be cancelled upto a month after it has "cleared". At least here in the UK it can. Similarly with credit/debit card transactions.
Treating people as deadbeats right from the start is a sure way to kill your business. Losses occur in any business but a smart business establishment builds those into their costs of doing said business.

Cash is dying.

[photoguy6405]

Don't know about the UK or other countries, but in the US you can take them to small claims court and get a judgment for the money (in the case of a bounced or canceled check).

It may or may not help in recovery, but you can place a lien on any property they have or may get.

ETA: Not to mention that alot of county district attorneys are taking these things more seriously now as criminal matters.

[DennisW1]

If your contract is solid then keep the cash, by all means..forget about helping people out just a bit, you've done their job and its time for them to do theirs.

I am having to take someone to small claims court because they have "decided" that despite the 3-week extension I gave out of heart, despite the sob stories about living on EI which were bull****, despite having more than enough money now and stating it...client no longer wants the work I did for them so they "decided" they wouldnt pay.

Doesn't happen in a restaurant, doesn't happen in a dental office so why should it happen with us?

Contract states you pay...so you pay.

Fill out a complaint with small claims if she's not coughing up, I have no more sympathy for people who try to con us out of honest good work done.



Maybe, just maybe, they're not trying to "con" anyone. Yep, there are those that do, and thats why all the contractual language about non-refundable retainers and the like, but being a small businessman you have the unique opportunity to be able to deal with these people one-on-one. It doesn't take too much effort to find out if they're really in the middle of a very bad situation or if they're just trying to cheap out.

If you know you're being screwed over, then yes I would agree 110% that you should enforce the language of your contract, but if you know it's just because this couples' plans and lives have just fallen apart, maybe a little bit of compassion isn't such a bad thing.
And as one person pointed out, it can come back to you as even more business. No guarantees that it will, but the good word-of-mouth alone is worth some of it.

Not everyone is a con or a swindler. Yes, there are enough of them out there, but not all of them. The hard part is telling the difference between the two.

[SwitchBlade]

Aye, as a kid though I knew naff all and just got angry. Had no contract or anything either.

Back on topic, that's why I'm untrusting of people and with an excuse like that are just looking to get there money back to use a cheaper 'tog.

[cdifoto]

I haven't received a referral from anyone I've lent a financial hand to. Working with their contract, putting together a package that works, yes. But forgiving a balance or amount owed me per the contract? Nope. Not once.

You wanna back out? Fine. But we stick to the terms of the contract. It's business.

Once again, the bride said "we MAY not get married" according to the OP. She didn't call to say "we have canceled our wedding plans." That's not grounds for the photographer to bust out the kleenex.

[photoguy6405]

Aye, as a kid though I knew naff all and just got angry. Had no contract or anything either.

Back on topic, that's why I'm untrusting of people and with an excuse like that are just looking to get there money back to use a cheaper 'tog.
Just for the sake of conversation, if they issued you a check it's supposed to be good. Contract or no contract.

[photoguy6405]

I haven't received a referral from anyone I've lent a financial hand to. Working with their contract, putting together a package that works, yes. But forgiving a balance or amount owed me per the contract? Nope. Not once.
That you're aware of.

You wanna back out? Fine. But we stick to the terms of the contract. It's business.
Then again, maybe you're right... not once. After all, it's just business. ;)

[cdifoto]

That you're aware of.
I know where my clients come from. I always ask them how they found me.

Then again, maybe you're right... not once. After all, it's just business. ;)
Yes, it is. I'd rather stick to a contract and run a successful business than be a doormat who can't pay his rent.

My customer service is top notch but I don't sympathize via my finances and breaking contracts. Breaking your own contracts undermines their integrity.

[Alleh]

Just tell her you can't give a refund and if you are unable to book another wedding on that date you will have to charge her the other $1500 still.

[slitherjef]

As far as "deposit", well most places charge you a deposit if you rent a house or apartment and if the place is trashed when you move out, you don't get your deposit back.

But, I guess "May not be getting married" is not the same as trashing your apartment when you vacate. Even so, I would probably change "deposit" to "booking fee" or "retainer"

Looking at things here, she did cancel out of the contract terms so you should keep the money because, after all, it was a contract. It was not your fault her love life may be falling apart. A signed contract is a signed contract, right?

However, looking at things from the other direction, saying, "Yeah, I signed a contract, my love life fell apart, but the photographer understood and decided to work with us and give us a refund, well thats some stand up customer service in my book! If I get married again or my friends do, I will recomend this photographer for his customer service!"

Well, okay it may not work quite like that, but it may work in your favor. Or might not, it may turn out to be, "Yeah, if you are not 100% sure the wedding is on, go to this photographer, he will give you a refund up to the last minute if things go sour!"

Me personaly? I would probably just break down and refund.

[photoguy6405]

As far as "deposit", well most places charge you a deposit if you rent a house or apartment and if the place is trashed when you move out, you don't get your deposit back.
Right, but they don't get their money back because they didn't hold up their end of the contract in maintaining the place. That is what a deposit is for... security of some sort, or an incentive to do your part.

In my younger days, before I knew any better, I paid a "non-refundable deposit" for an apartment. If I knew then what I know now I never would have agreed to that. Live and learn.

[Karl Johnston]

Maybe, just maybe, they're not trying to "con" anyone. Yep, there are those that do, and thats why all the contractual language about non-refundable retainers and the like, but being a small businessman you have the unique opportunity to be able to deal with these people one-on-one. It doesn't take too much effort to find out if they're really in the middle of a very bad situation or if they're just trying to cheap out.

If you know you're being screwed over, then yes I would agree 110% that you should enforce the language of your contract, but if you know it's just because this couples' plans and lives have just fallen apart, maybe a little bit of compassion isn't such a bad thing.
And as one person pointed out, it can come back to you as even more business. No guarantees that it will, but the good word-of-mouth alone is worth some of it.

Not everyone is a con or a swindler. Yes, there are enough of them out there, but not all of them. The hard part is telling the difference between the two.
Of course, I agree, I'm not saying she is in this case..but it's wise to be wary of those that are and letting yourself be taken advantage of by having a soft heart can lead to trouble. On the flip side it could be the best thing.

That said its all about personal judgement and intuition...I'm not saying she is a con, or to say to hell with her and not refund the cash, or that I have no empathy to her situation...all I am saying is, however, be cautious of letting things go too easily; you could open yourself up to be taken advantage of.

But, again, its personal judgement.

Granted I have little experience compared to some of you but I'm learning quickly, and in one case the hard way. Sometimes it's best to be kept neutral

[SoccerRef]

I know where my clients come from. I always ask them how they found me.

Yes, it is. I'd rather stick to a contract and run a successful business than be a doormat who can't pay his rent.

My customer service is top notch but I don't sympathize via my finances and breaking contracts. Breaking your own contracts undermines their integrity.

This is exactly why I have an "escape clause" for me and my clients. IF I am able to rebook the date with the same or better package, They are entitled to a refund of the "unused" portion of their deposit. IF I am not, I am fully entitled to keep it.

This also means that a couple that cancels 6 months away from the date is a whole lot more likely to receive a refund than that one that cancels two weeks before the date...

[m33p33]

Methinks someone had too much fun at their Bachelor Party.

So should the reception hall, caterer, DJ all give up their deposits? What about all the potential Airfares and Hotel Accommodations from Uncle bob and Aunt Mary from out of town and for the Honeymoon that are for certain to be canceled. (Yea, there will be lots of fees to cancel all that mess)

This is all supposed to happen in two months. A lot of money will be lost by a lot of hardworking people. Should they lose more because of someone else's bad choice?

There are always consequences for one's actions. Keep the deposit. Keep your services as a Photographer available to the customer for that weekend. Remain professional. Regardless, you will continue to get business by delivering quality product in a professional manner.

Who wants a referral as someone who will tear up a contract on a whim.

[cdifoto]

I don't know about you guys but I'm in the business to make money. I'm not in the business to be adored by everyone. I'll work with you but I won't allow myself to be opened up to financial ruin. One wedding refunded wouldn't kill me but once I start opening up and making exceptions, it doesn't end there. It's never "just this once." It's over and over and over and over. Those big, profitable businesses became big, profitable businesses because they were fair to themselves as well as their clients. They set up fair and reasonable policies and stuck to them and enforced them to ensure that their clients stuck to them. I'd sure like to become a big, profitable business and I won't get there by tearing up my legally binding contracts and giving people back their money just because they pouted their lips.

[tim]

Without reading the whole thread... point out the contract and say no. The thing is if it gets to court a judge will make a decision based on their whim, not the contract, so you could be SOL. So don't let it get that far.

[Photon Phil]

I guess it's a little tough to act as the "enforcer" when you run a small business.

Exactly, if the money is needed, well it's yours. But a bad reputation, however unfounded, can cost you for the remainder of that next season's bookings.

[Karl Johnston]

The thing is if it gets to court a judge will make a decision based on their whim, not the contract, so you could be SOL. So don't let it get that far.
Really? So conracts are effectively useless in that regard?

[tim]

Really? So conracts are effectively useless in that regard?

That's what i've read on DWF, but you'd need to ask a lawyer to be sure. A judge can make a ruling based on something being unreasonable, which is totally a judgement call. Hence the name, judge.

I would say no, you signed this, but I may compromise and I would back down if lawyers got involved. They'd charge more than what she's paid you.

[DennisW1]

Methinks someone had too much fun at their Bachelor Party.

So should the reception hall, caterer, DJ all give up their deposits? What about all the potential Airfares and Hotel Accommodations from Uncle bob and Aunt Mary from out of town and for the Honeymoon that are for certain to be canceled. (Yea, there will be lots of fees to cancel all that mess)

This is all supposed to happen in two months. A lot of money will be lost by a lot of hardworking people. Should they lose more because of someone else's bad choice?

There are always consequences for one's actions. Keep the deposit. Keep your services as a Photographer available to the customer for that weekend. Remain professional. Regardless, you will continue to get business by delivering quality product in a professional manner.

Who wants a referral as someone who will tear up a contract on a whim.


Once again, you assume.

The reason for the potential postponement of the wedding has not been disclosed. It may be something like that, or any one of a thousand different reasons that might have nothing at all to do with someone's bad choice or moment of indescretion. None of us really knows the reason for their decision, or at this moment it may be nothing more than a moment of indecision.

After all the advice, both pro and con, that has been given the OP is the only one who can make the choice that seems right for him.

[UAlso]

This story is why I only do elopements for cash, eh?

[sfgp]

I just read thru the entire thread.

A thought comes to mind -

with 2.5+ million jobs lost in the last few months -

They may not HAVE the money.

Think about it -

[Joelene]

I just read thru the entire thread.

A thought comes to mind -

with 2.5+ million jobs lost in the last few months -

They may not HAVE the money.

Think about it -


You are right, and it is a sad truth...

Even if they don't have it, I still say, don't give back the deposit. Everyone has a sad story they can tell. You need to remember contracts are to protect both you and the client. This is where your protection comes in. You are not obligated at all. As I mentioned before, when in this situation, to save face I give a 50% of monies paid back in a "credit" or "Gift Certificate" valid for only 1 year. If they don't use it, they don't use it.

with 2.5 million jobs lost, you don't want to be one in the unemployment line because all your brides decided they can no longer spend the money...

[photoguy6405]

I don't know about you guys but I'm in the business to make money. I'm not in the business to be adored by everyone. I'll work with you but I won't allow myself to be opened up to financial ruin. One wedding refunded wouldn't kill me but once I start opening up and making exceptions, it doesn't end there. It's never "just this once." It's over and over and over and over. Those big, profitable businesses became big, profitable businesses because they were fair to themselves as well as their clients. They set up fair and reasonable policies and stuck to them and enforced them to ensure that their clients stuck to them. I'd sure like to become a big, profitable business and I won't get there by tearing up my legally binding contracts and giving people back their money just because they pouted their lips.
Not so. Large retailers like Wal-Mart, Target, Lowe's, Home Depot, etc., all bend their return rules every single day to keep customers happy. It's a fact. My SO works for Lowe's (and has worked for some of the others) and would constantly get overridden by the manager when she tried to enforce the rules. Unless the customer is being a total jerk, all they have to say is "I want to speak to a manager..." and they'll more often than not get their way.

It's frustrating for her, because she gets in trouble if she gives in, but the managers cave almost every time.

[SoccerRef]

Photoguy is right. I work in Retail and I can't tell you how often we get RIDICULOUS returns... I see General Managers take back stuff that is 2 YEARS OLD!!

About a month ago, one of our GMs took it upon himself to return a customer's $1,800 laptop. Dude bought the laptop 4 years ago and purchased a 3 year extended coverage contract. The guy DROPPED his laptop and proceeded to bring it in claiming that he was due a new laptop per his 3 year extended warranty. It was pointed out that:
1 - The three years had expired almost 9 months earlier
2 - He DROPPED the laptop, it was HIS FAULT the screen was cracked and the case was broken.
3 - The contract stipulated that he send the unit to the third party contract supplier

He indicated that he understood all of the above, but the third party supplier from whom he had purchased the extended warranty refused to replace or repair the unit!

The GM ultimately refunded the FULL $1,800 PLUS the $285 he spent on his 3 year coverage contract. The guy turned around and bought a $1,500 laptop, a $250 3 year coverage policy for his NEW laptop and we gave him change of $335 cash less the sales tax!!!

[aebrown]

Stick to the contract. Though I know I, like you, would want to be nice and refund them the money.

The bottom line, in my eyes at least, is that you've done the work, taken the time etc. and you deserve at least some compensation. It's like senior portraits. Just because the senior doesn't graduate doesn't mean they get a refund on their pictures. These are circumstances out of your control and not something you should have to pay for.

Haven't read through all the posts on here, but maybe somebody already said all that. Either way, best of luck with whatever your decision is!

[m33p33]

There are large differences in Big Box retail

A larger company like a Wall*Mart or Best Buy can take the trashed product and send it back to the vendor for a account credit. What is the vendor going to do? Boycott selling their product to Wall Mart? (yea right!)

Maybe the OP's customer should have gone to Wall*Mart for her wedding pics they would have given her her money back, right? :P

[photoguy6405]

There are large differences in Big Box retail

A larger company like a Wall*Mart or Best Buy can take the trashed product and send it back to the vendor for a account credit. What is the vendor going to do? Boycott selling their product to Wall Mart? (yea right!)

Maybe the OP's customer should have gone to Wall*Mart for her wedding pics they would have given her her money back, right? :P
Not always. Many times they eat the cost themselves.

What's Wal-Mart going to do, make the product themselves? It's not as one-sided as one would think.

[m33p33]

If OP sells His $3000.00 package every weekend annual sales would be $156,000 net. Losing one week of work would be about a 1.9% loss in sales. (That's assuming he has that opportunity every weekend. the percentage goes up if his average packages are smaller.)

In '08 Wal-Mart reported $374.5 billion in net sales 1.9% of that is 7.11 billion dollars.

I wonder if I returned my $7.11 billion dollar gold plated flat screen to Wall Mart they would take it back without a box or receipt? Even after I punched a hole in the screen rendering it inoperable because the ballgame didn't go the way I wanted that weekend?

What's my reason? It just wasn't working out for me. Sorry, these things happen you understand, right?

[photoguy6405]

Wow. Talk about going on a tangent from a tangent. :-|

[Karl Johnston]

Don't get me wrong, I'm a nice guy :) (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=718226)but you know...gotta pay the rent somehow, right?

We just don't know the full story here...where's the OP at? Maybe they can fill us in on an update

[m33p33]

Nope, same tangent - you can compare and recommend the business practices of large corporations to a small business, Just make sure your rational is the same.

one customer returns damaged unsellable product to W*M last year for $3000.00. that's a 0.0000008% loss for them.

that is equivalent to 0.0012 dollars based on the OP's calculated net income.

Yet our OP is planing on refunding $1500.00, maybe more, on a contract that the customer is in default.

A Wal-mart store manager would have to take back 1,200,000 damaged unsellable un-returnable pieces of merchandise at $3000.00 per credit (no restocking fee LOL) to match the generosity of our OP. Double that if he gives a full refund.

mind boggling really

[The Stig]

Business is business. You do this to make money to put food on the table for you and yours, and like said you passed up other gigs that likely would've paid to do theirs. It's unfortunate that it worked out that way for them, but that's life sometimes. There's a nice way to say all of that, but a contract is a contract. In the long run, it'll be better for your business if you're consistent and go with the terms in your contract. After all, you wrote that contract for a reason - to protect your interests. Now it's time to protect them.

While I didn't read every post in the thread, I did scan it, and saw one where someone was killed before the wedding. In an extreme and rare situation, that's a bit different. But changing your mind - not rare and not extreme. Sorry for the couple.

[MarkAnthonyPhotography]

Looks like this thread has taken on a mind of its own! lol
I emailed the bride and called her. Apparently she is away at her parents house somewhere in Wisconsin. We offered to eat the remaining balance and hold their $1500 as "credit" until Dec 2010. Hopefully they will work this out and do the damn thing, or I'm out $1500+ considering the weddings we had to turn away due to the date being booked. I do double book from time to time, but not when one wedding is as large as this one was. Shame....

[Az2Africa]

Mark
I think you did the reasonable thing with your offer. I would not contact them again though. Let them work on whatever their problem is and see if they even persue it any further.

[photoguy6405]

Nope, same tangent - you can compare and recommend the business practices of large corporations to a small business, Just make sure your rational is the same.

one customer returns damaged unsellable product to W*M last year for $3000.00. that's a 0.0000008% loss for them.

that is equivalent to 0.0012 dollars based on the OP's calculated net income.

Yet our OP is planing on refunding $1500.00, maybe more, on a contract that the customer is in default.

A Wal-mart store manager would have to take back 1,200,000 damaged unsellable un-returnable pieces of merchandise at $3000.00 per credit (no restocking fee LOL) to match the generosity of our OP. Double that if he gives a full refund.

mind boggling really
Not even close. The original post that started this tangent was in refernence to one person saying they would like to be said "big business", and comparing themself to said big business when big business wasn't big... not big business as they are today.


Looks like this thread has taken on a mind of its own! lol
So many threads do after the first few pages. :lol:

[airfrogusmc]

Again if they broke up then for me I would return the $$$. If they're switching dates or are now trying to do things on the cheap then thats another story but then again I would at least hear them out and I would always double check.

But I think it all boils down to whether your in business for the long haul or the quick buck. Like I previously mentioned that both brides when they finally did get married came back to me at higher prices and for large orders and so did one of the grooms and IIRC so I also got a sister of one of the brides. My prices when I made the switch to corporate now over 10 years ago my starting prices were $5500 and my deposit was 3/4 with the balance due on receipt of the proofs.

I called the hotels and the florist to find out if they had indeed cancelled and when I found out they indeed had I refunded their deposits. I thought and still think it was the right thing to do and I had no expectations of getting any more business from them.

I was the only vendor that returned their deposits and they all remember that. In fact I was the only business that did and was the only one that got their weddings when they all finally married.

My contract clearly stated that I didn't have to return the $$$ but at the time I thought it was the RIGHT thing to do under those particular circumstances.

I run my corporate business the same way. I think long term and don't always go for the short end gain and as a result I have very loyal clients steady clients. I think it boils down to the basic philosophy of the way you run your business. And that approach or philosophy can be just one more thing that separates you from the herd.

[nicksan]

^Well put Allen.

[Karl Johnston]

Again if they broke up then for me I would return the $$$. If they're switching dates or are now trying to do things on the cheap then thats another story but then again I would at least hear them out and I would always double check.

But I think it all boils down to whether your in business for the long haul or the quick buck. Like I previously mentioned that both brides when they finally did get married came back to me at higher prices and for large orders and so did one of the grooms and IIRC so I also got a sister of one of the brides. My prices when I made the switch to corporate now over 10 years ago my starting prices were $5500 and my deposit was 3/4 with the balance due on receipt of the proofs.

I called the hotels and the florist to find out if they had indeed cancelled and when I found out they indeed had I refunded their deposits. I thought and still think it was the right thing to do and I had no expectations of getting any more business from them.

I was the only vendor that returned their deposits and they all remember that. In fact I was the only business that did and was the only one that got their weddings when they all finally married.

My contract clearly stated that I didn't have to return the $$$ but at the time I thought it was the RIGHT thing to do under those particular circumstances.

I run my corporate business the same way. I think long term and don't always go for the short end gain and as a result I have very loyal clients steady clients. I think it boils down to the basic philosophy of the way you run your business. And that approach or philosophy can be just one more thing that separates you from the herd.



That's a good reflection compared to what everyone else is writing, and I think you're right about the long-haul or the quick buck, too.

Lots of good discussion here

[LBaldwin]

Not so. Large retailers like Wal-Mart, Target, Lowe's, Home Depot, etc., all bend their return rules every single day to keep customers happy. It's a fact. My SO works for Lowe's (and has worked for some of the others) and would constantly get overridden by the manager when she tried to enforce the rules. Unless the customer is being a total jerk, all they have to say is "I want to speak to a manager..." and they'll more often than not get their way.

It's frustrating for her, because she gets in trouble if she gives in, but the managers cave almost every time.

Yes they do give refunds, but that is for tangible items like socks and tires, lawn mowers and such. Although photography has a tangible side, the contract is about image creation, and exclusive dates for an event. NOT even close to what is sold in a store.

If the B&G are in financial straits, then say so, I would think most of us would try to find a way to work within more narrow parameters. But I think if the wedding is actually on then it is just buyers remorse, cause they have a GWC running around out back who will give away images or worse a CD.

Bottom line for me is, this. If the wedding is indeed canceled and I can rebook the date then I would forgive a percentage of the shoot already paid. But I want a written letter from the B&G (all signatories of the original contract) and a new booking for that date prior to ANY discussion of refund. It is still some time away so the flowers and food have probably not been purchased yet. BUT any vendor that has to order well in advance or any special orders are usually non-refundable. The wedding site may want to keep some of their deposits too.

In the commercial world this is called a kill fee, in other words if you spend time on a project, present your ideas, gather a team, and start to formulate a shoot then the cleint cancels there is still a fee due to the photographer to compensate for the time and materials used in the early stages.

I do know a few wedding photographers who have something like this in their contract to cover themselves, and to let the B&G know that funny biz is not a good idea.

If it just buyers remorse than tough cookies.

[photoguy6405]

Yes they do give refunds, but that is for tangible items like socks and tires, lawn mowers and such. Although photography has a tangible side, the contract is about image creation, and exclusive dates for an event. NOT even close to what is sold in a store.
It's a customer seeking a refund that they're technically not entitled to, and how a business... any business... reacts. The example could just as easily be for a service provided, i.e. carpet cleaning, dog poop scooping, and still be equally valid. Tangible vs intangible is irrelevant and splitting hairs.

[LBaldwin]

It's a customer seeking a refund that they're technically not entitled to, and how a business... any business... reacts. The example could just as easily be for a service provided, i.e. carpet cleaning, dog poop scooping, and still be equally valid. Tangible vs intangible is irrelevant and splitting hairs.

I'll agree that they is the possibility that they are not entitle to a refund. But I think we both know that there are sometimes mitigating circumstances. But I am loathe to compare my business to a plumber, carpet cleaning or heaven forbid - a poop scooper. I have a real issue with photographers that do make that comparison, primarily due to the fact that I want my customers to choose me for my artistic ability, creativity and technical skills, not my ability to afford a really neat light tight box with expensive glass bolted to the front!! Too often we shoot ourselves in the foot, by comparisons to other types of existing businesses. Even though both are painters, one paints walls and the other paints portraits...

*MART does not create anything for themselves, they are just a retailer, large to be sure, but still just a retailer. They don;t care about returns unless the customer is really beligerant. They factor in returns and sell entire lots to secondary resellers and still make a serious killing in the retail business.

So I may have split hairs, but to me and my business they are more important to seperate myself from just another schmoe with a camera, lawmower etc.

[chakalakasp]

Zansho makes a good point... "Did you go over the contract with them when they signed it?"

Not that doing so makes it any more or less valid, but I always sit with both the Bride and Groom AND whoever is paying me if it is someone other than the Bride and Groom and I go over every part of the contract. I also always provide a copy to them BEFORE that meeting so they can read and come with their questions.

Many lawyers will tell you that it's not a good idea to explain contracts to people. Let them read it on their own. If you explain a contract wrong, or the customer claims that you explained it wrong, you could wind up complicating things.

/I am not a lawyer, seek consultation with an attorney for professional legal advice

[SquareOne]

I didn't have time to read all of the replies, however I wanted to throw my 2 cents on the subj.

I'll keep it short and sweet:
-Keep the money (your contract was well laid out and they broke their end of the deal).
-Offer photographic services for the amount deposited at a later date (family photo, E-Shoot, ect).
-The gesture of offering "something" for your money will help keep their possibly "bad" experience
from ruining your future business opportunities with the couple or their friends/family/ect.
-These are very difficult decisions to make, however, a refund would not help you as you have passed
up other opportunities for them to have their date held. Get paid, but find an angle to benefit from
the unfortunate situation.

[Hikin Mike]

I didn't have time to read all of the replies, however I wanted to throw my 2 cents on the subj...

Do you realize this thread is nearly 2 years old (July 2009)?

[TopHatMoments]

Oop's!

[SillyGuy]

holy necro thread

[nonameowns]

pancakes

[SMP_Homer]

thread resurrection is sometimes better than the History Channel

[Gomar]

Hold on, why is the _bride_ asking for the moolah back, not the groom? Refunds are based on what the contract states; if it says you get 100% back if cancelled within 6 days, or they get nothing back if cancelled within 6 months, if signed by both parties then it's legally binding.
6 months or 2 months is plenty of time to get other clients, so yes, you should keep some $, but dont ask for balance. Offer to work off the deposit. My cousin cancelled his wedding cuz his bride was a schitzo after depositing $1500 to wedding hall. His mom got her birthday done there instead. Ifcourse, he could have threated to invite the homeless for a nice meal :-)

[TopHatMoments]

Again look at time stamp, for this dead thread!

[Gomar]

someone was killed before the wedding. In an extreme and rare situation, that's a bit different.

People get killed, get into car accidents, get arrested, run away, get abducted by little green men, etc. My friend was a photog, got arrested on the way to the wedding for not paying $500 in tickets. What if photog gets sick and doesnt show up. Does he have to refund the entire deposit? My friend had a court case, his lawyer didnt show up, my friend lost. Turns out the lawyer's mom was in serious condition, so he decided to drive from NYC to Philly, but on the way was told she kicked the bucket. Then my friend sued the lawyer for not doing his job. Likewise, could the B&G sue the photog for not showing up?

[TopHatMoments]

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing025.gif