Saving Photos

[mdaddyrabbit]

I save all my photos to a external Hard drive, and then burn them to DVD-RAM for a backup copy. What do you guys use for storage and backup. Please list your equipment used.

[Rob612]

I voted for the external, but its not really true. I use a 300GB internal (actually a RAID1 double HD) as the main storage. This is copied mainly weekly (or after every important shooting session) to another 300 GB external. The External has 2 folders: Dumped/Undumped. I burn on DVD the Unduped everythime I have 4.5 GB of data, and move what I have burned to the Dumped folder.

I also adopted a naminche scheme for shooting folders that is YYYY-MM-DD - Subject of the shooting so I can easily find what I need.

[pcasciola]

My setup is similar to Rob's. My main work drive is an internal 250Gb drive, and I have two external 250Gbs that I mirror the data too. I also have a 60Gb laptop drive in a tiny external case that will fit in the front pocket of my jeans that I use for offsite backups.

My problem with DVDs is that they are too small and too unreliable. If one of my backup hard drives fails, I would know immediately. If a DVD fails on the shelf, you will not know until you need it, and then it would be too late.

Oh, and I have a little bit of experience with DVDs. I've burned over 3,000 of them. ;)

[Belmondo]

This is one of the cases when the simple "one-choice" survey is possibly misleading. I use external hard drives primarily, but also use CDs and DVD-RW as well.

At present, I have two Maxtor 160-gig (I think) external drives, and I regularly download my working photo files onto them. Then, I periodically archive the backed-up files onto an optical medium, usually dvd-rw.

I back up probably once a month, but if I taken an important photo, I usually back it up immediately, even before I start post-processing it.

I don't claim to have the best work habits, but paranoia has doomed me to being reasonably diligent about backing up..

[pcasciola]

Belmondo makes a good point. It's not a good idea to rely on just one medium for backup. If I count how many copies of my important data I have, I keep about 3 backup copies of all my photos (all on hard drives) and about 6 backups of my more important data, several of which are DVD-RWs that I rotate between.

[slin100]

I agree with belmondo. A multiple-answer poll would have been better. I back up to a second internal-harddrive and CD-R. I plan to make the jump to DVD soon.

[UncleDoug]

Hard drives have moving parts, so I avoid "backing up" to them.
Retrieving data from a bad drive is EXPENSIVE.
I burn two copies of a CD/DVD.
One for local/on-site storage and one in the safe deposite box.
CD/DVD's do breakdown over time but this is drastically reduced if stored properly, just like chromes :lol:

[BDM]

I'm using CDR with Nero software. My computer has two 128 gigabyte hard drives in a RAID configuratiuon so there is automatic backup there. I do plan to get a DVD drive that can burn to that medium one of these days. My office computer does have a DVD burning capable drive but, unfortunately, Photoshop and my image files are on my home computer.

Bruce

[Hoopster]

Most of my images are saved twice (once each on two 200Gb internal drives). Very few are on DVD because I'm too lazy to copy my 60Gb of data!

This has reminded me to back up this week.

Thanks

[tim]

1) Primary copy on main internal HDD.
2) Secondary copy mirrored to 2nd internal hard drive, manual process, done weekly or after important events.
3) Portable 80GB hard drive holds all image data, at least it will until it fills up, which is starting to happen. Drive is usually kept at home but apart from the PC, so it's vunerable to fire and theft if the PC gets stolen.
4) Copy of all photos are stored on the hard drive of my work PC.
5) Copies of important data are periodically written to DVD and stored in another city. This is my "last resort", as I don't trust DVDs or CDs for important data.

I think my paranoia should keep my data reasonably safe ;)

[ssim]

This poll is difficult to answer for me.

I edit all my images on my C drive. The really good keeper TIFF's are copied on a secondary hard drive. Once I have copied my RAW files to my C drive I go through them and delete the obivious losers. I then back up the RAW files to DVD for preservation.


The choices here just don't fit with my workflow.

[chtgrubbs]

I burn RAW files onto CD and copy both the RAWs and any conversions onto an external hard drive. When I build my new computer it will have three hard drives, one for operating system and programs and two in a RAID 1 configuation for working files.

[KevC]

As of right now, only internal HDD. But going to back up the stuff I like onto DVDR.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Edited poll to include more than one back up option and extended it past the single day it was due to run. ;)

[dannym]

RAID Mirroring on a server & then backup to DVD-R.

[MTalley]

Most recent work is saved to my laptop hard drive (40G). Within a day or so (probably should be more immediate), I copy it twice to an external 120G drive that I have split into two 60G partitions. When I have about 650 to 700G of new data, that also gets backed up onto a CD-R and stored.

I redo all of the CD-R's yearly, to avoid long-term deterioration problems.

[S230]

I save my photos onto CD's. I don't trust HD's because it failed on me before. I still use it for quick referencing but for backup I tend to do it on DVD and CD's Write ONCE. I don't use many CDRW or DVD-RW becasue they too have short shelf life (5+ years). I make multiple copies and include some offsite. For really important data, I put onto QUALITY CD's that are rated for archival purposes. CD's are much more stable for data and had already proven itself over the years. Also, you get what you pay for as to the cost per disc (Some reated 50 - 100 years life). Not long ago, I was still using Phase Discs but it was too costly so I switched to CD's. I figure every 10 - 20 years, if the data is stil valuable, I should go back to those CD's and make a duplicate of them to continue the lifespan.
As for hard drives, I still use it for quick access to ones I would likely use. I put onto 2 separate 120GB hard drives internal. I also store on separate removable hard drives.

ie. after an important photosession:
- photos onto the two internal hard drives' folders.,
- place on a separate removable drive and store on shelf.
- burn multiple copies onto CD's and store some offsite.

Hope this helps.

[S230]

Just a note... failed hard drive does not mean dying or not spinning. What's worst is that everything seems to work but over the years, if you try and access or compare the same photo to the original, bits of the data are not in sync. Sometimes an image with bad data may get unnoticed until you decide to edit or print it. I had one jpg photo ending up with red line across the image and I cannot figure out why until I compared the binary bits of the data.

Just a bit off-topic... but those of you that have massive amount of Mp3's in your collection, bad data can also cause a "jump" or "scratch" in the music. It can be something like a sharp sound while playing in the music.... Image you had thousands and not sure which ones are bad...

[guitarman3]

I burn to either cdr or dvd-r and make at least two copies. I'm finding that dvd's are a little unreliable and if one goes bad, you lose a lot more data than if a cdr goes bad.

[Jesper]

I backup my photos to an external harddrive and also to DVD-R.

I switch on the "verify data" feature of my DVD writing software to check if the data has been written to the DVD-R correctly - I did have a bad DVD once...

[S230]

Guess my point proven already. Someone had once told me (Please correct me if I heard wrong) that DVD are not as reliable because it was primairly used for movies and even a few skips, we won't notice it much. The precision required writing to DVD are more extreme because of the density of the data. CD's were mostly used for music and many audiophilies (People that loves music) can pickup even the slightest flaw therefore CD's tend to be more precise than the CD.

[gmaize]

Thanks to all for your insights. Great thread. I need to be more proactive in my data storage. Question. How do you store your disks? Jewel cases, Sleeved folders, stacks, other?? Do you use home safes, fireboxes, etc.??

--gmaize

[UncleDoug]

You guys got me thinking...

Check this out.

http://mmi.musc.edu/CDR.htm

[tommykjensen]

My current workflow is following.

- copy the cards to my new Epson P-2000
- copy the data from P-2000 to my photo editor pc
- RAR all the files into DVD sized parts and burn DVDs
- copy the DVDs to a second pc that with 2 hotswap harddisks in manual raid 1
- check that the RAR's can be unpacked
- manually copy the data from drive 1 to 2
- remove drive 2 until next time I make a backup.

So that results in 5 copies of all photos. Obviously the Epson has a limited capacity and soon I will be deleting the oldest photos from that.

[S230]

Thanks to all for your insights. Great thread. I need to be more proactive in my data storage. Question. How do you store your disks? Jewel cases, Sleeved folders, stacks, other?? Do you use home safes, fireboxes, etc.??

--gmaize
I strictly use Jewel Case because sleeved ones can potentially scratch it. I never stack. They are in individual jewel case with proper labelling OUTSIDE on the box and NOT on the CD. Any writing on the CD you need to be very careful because even felt markers can sink into the CD. I use waterbased ink so that it does not harm the disc.
As for storage, I leve them vertical to minimize the pressure over time. Where to store them... I leave one copy on the bookshelf, one offsite and one in another room.
As for fireboxes, it depends on how much data or photos. I do keep one in my safety deposit box, but space is limited.

[S230]

Just to add to my last comment... I still have copies on my local hard drives. one copy on each and a copy on a removable drive that get's placed in the shelf once full. 40GB each.
Escentially, I have 3 NON magnetic copies and 2 magnetic copy. I do use DVD but for quick access only. This will then make a total of 7 copies. I did not even count the backed up one on my Portable Photo drive. The most important way to look at it is the 3 copies that are on CDs.

Some people keep them offline such as sites like smugmug.com but again, this depends on how many files you have.

Bottom line is how important you feel your data is. Magnetic storage is not meant for long term storage and is acceptable to deteroriation over time. By keeping multiple copies of data in several location minimizes the risk of Fire, theft or accidents.

Here's My workflow.
- after a photoshoot, I now have a CF card with photos on it.
- I would backup the data onto my PD7x (Portable Photo storage)
- I then copy the data from the CF card onto my Notebook Computer.
- I keep the CF card in a safe place until I get home.
** already I have 3 copies on hand.

- Once home, I would copy the data from the CF card onto my local hard drive (D: drive).
- Delete any bad photos not required and make any necessary changes. (Not to original file).
- After the update, make a backup onto secondary hard drive. (E: drive)
- Burn 3 copies with Verification onto CD's. and store in different places.
** Already I have 5 different copies...

- After several shooting sessions, I would have enough photos to fill a 40gb hard drive.
make a copy of the images onto a removable 40gb hard drive and place on shelf.

** So in Total, i would have had a total of 9 copies floating around.. Of course this is not permanent because what will happen is that after I make sure files are on the CD's, i would delete images from my PD7x and CF card and one of the hard drive partition, even the notebook if not used often.

esentially what I am left with is 5 copies. 3 are on CD's and 2 on hard drives. (On shelf and in computer).

[S230]

My current workflow is following.

- copy the cards to my new Epson P-2000
- copy the data from P-2000 to my photo editor pc
- RAR all the files into DVD sized parts and burn DVDs
- copy the DVDs to a second pc that with 2 hotswap harddisks in manual raid 1
- check that the RAR's can be unpacked
- manually copy the data from drive 1 to 2
- remove drive 2 until next time I make a backup.

So that results in 5 copies of all photos. Obviously the Epson has a limited capacity and soon I will be deleting the oldest photos from that.
I am curious. Does RAR compress JPG and Raw photo files a lot? I personally leave it as it because it's too much trouble and also I find that JPG is already compressed a lot.

[Ken Fong]

There is an old thread on here that suggests that all burnable media that we know of (CD, DVD) should not be considered safe for long-term archival storage because of the light-sensitive nature of the media. Someone pointed out that for comparison, the reason store-bought music CDs and DVDs last virtually forever is because they are not light-sensitive (they are 'pressed', a different process than our in-home burning method.) But my guess is that for practical purposes, and if you are using higher quality media (not the no-name brands you find in the office supply stores), and if you store them in a dark place vertically in a case, burned CDs/DVDs should probably last the remainder of your lifespan without problems. The folks at the computer store said hard drives or even external (hotwire or USB) drives are the best value for true long-term archival storage...if the drive breaks down, you can always use a service to retrieve the data (a bit costly however).

[tommykjensen]

I am curious. Does RAR compress JPG and Raw photo files a lot? I personally leave it as it because it's too much trouble and also I find that JPG is already compressed a lot.

No not really. I just use it to pack the files to chunks that fit easily on one dvd. Much easier than manually copying.

[S230]

There is an old thread on here that suggests that all burnable media that we know of (CD, DVD) should not be considered safe for long-term archival storage because of the light-sensitive nature of the media. Someone pointed out that for comparison, the reason store-bought music CDs and DVDs last virtually forever is because they are not light-sensitive (they are 'pressed', a different process than our in-home burning method.) But my guess is that for practical purposes, and if you are using higher quality media (not the no-name brands you find in the office supply stores), and if you store them in a dark place vertically in a case, burned CDs/DVDs should probably last the remainder of your lifespan without problems. The folks at the computer store said hard drives or even external (hotwire or USB) drives are the best value for true long-term archival storage...if the drive breaks down, you can always use a service to retrieve the data (a bit costly however).I somehow think that the person working at the store either lack knowledge or is trying to sell drives. Magnetic media deteroriate much faster. Remember the news about how VHS's are rotting away because they have only 20 years life. This is same with media. As for best value (bang for the buck) for storage on hard drive is true but it's not true for archival.
This is why I store my media out of sunlight. Pressing CD's are a bit extreme for most people but if data is critical enough, it's worth it.
Earlier, I mentioned that I used PD. I own a Panasonic PD which holds only 750Mb data. These are Magneto-optical storage which is rugged and extremely reliable storage. What boils down to is cost. A single PD disc costs more than an entire spindle of CD's.

TDK offers CD's that are rated 100 years of storage life. So far I currently have data on these disc and had been already 10 years and still perfect condition. I will let you know 90 years from now if they are still readable (providing if I am still around or if I even remember anything...)...

[S230]

There are different dyes used to produce the CD's. Cyanine dye and Phthalocyanine are the most common ones. This also depends how you are burning the CD's (format) and Brand (Quality of laser and accuracy). Not all burners are equal. This is why you would probably notice why you pay more for a Yamaha verses a BenQ.

Here's some useful Links:

http://www.cdrfaq.org/faq07.html#S7-5

http://www.cd-info.com/CDIC/Technology/CD-R/Media/Longevity.html

http://www.informationweek.com/story/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=15800263&pgno=1

http://www.melbpc.org.au/pcupdate/2106/2106article14.htm

http://www.tdk.com.au/products/multimedia_storage/index_multimedia_storage.htm#mo

http://www.mscience.com/survey.html