Another nasty rights grab release - Janes Addiction

[blackshadow]

FYI - PDF available at http://******/sgPx

[narlus]

they didn't appear to have that waiver in place for the US dates, or at least if they did, no one on Flickr was kvetching about it (and a lot of people shot them on the NIN/JA tour).

that waiver sucks. run, don't walk.

[splithesky]

I'm not positive but not having that waiver on the NIN/JA tour probably had a lot to do with NIN. Trent wanted to have an open camera policy where anyone could shoot the shows.

[DDCSD]

Well, it was't completely insane until article 2... ;)

[BJWOK]

hey richard,

obviously that release is no longer valid as the tour was canceled, but i was just curious as to your stance? i was due to shoot JA here in adelaide, but hadn't seen the release yet.

from my understanding of it's content you are signing away EVERY right aside from the agreed publication? ouch!!

[blackshadow]

from my understanding of it's content you are signing away EVERY right aside from the agreed publication? ouch!!

That's right.

[BJWOK]

might have to cross parts of that out before signing if it's the same one they use at the rescheduled shows (when they announce them)

[exile]

Would that document actually hold up in a court?

Think about it - by signing it you are granting them rights beyond that which you possess. You cannot grant them rights "in perpetuity" as you yourself do not have the "rights in perpetuity". Once the copyright term expires then that's it!

[DDCSD]

Would that document actually hold up in a court?

Think about it - by signing it you are granting them rights beyond that which you possess. You cannot grant them rights "in perpetuity" as you yourself do not have the "rights in perpetuity". Once the copyright term expires then that's it!


Stop trying to interject logic into a conversation about a completely illogical document!!! :p

[coalcliff]

maybe the band should be called "Lawyer's Addiction":mad:

[DDCSD]

maybe the band should be called "Lawyer's Addiction":mad:

Or maybe "Lawless Addiction".

[exile]

Stop trying to interject logic into a conversation about a completely illogical document!!! :p

lol -fair point! :lol:

[narlus]

I was confronted with my first rights-grab photo waiver last night, from an OPENING band...who the fck do they think they are? Here was my response today to their label:

Hello Major Label Person -

Thanks again for helping to set up my photo pass/approval for [Band X] on such short notice. Unfortunately, I didn't shoot them, and photos of the band will not be in the [Headling Band] photo gallery to be published @ [the outlet I was shooting for] shortly.

The reason is that I objected to the rights waiver which was presented to me (attached). It's one thing to have rights restricted to editorial use for the specific outlet you are shooting for (much like [the Headliner's last night], and others that I have signed), but to transfer over complete copyright and control of my photos, without any compensation to me, is frankly insulting. You may not be aware of this policy (it might be band management-specific), but I just wanted to let you know my perspective. I did explain this to the Live Nation media relations person, and she went back to [Band X's] people on my behalf to see if the first clause could be crossed out, but they did not agree to this.

There does seem to be a groundswell of increasingly restrictive shooting conditions and now rights grabs that the concert photography community is being subjected to, and it's blatantly unfair in my opinion. I suppose the big players are still immune to this. The shooter for the Boston Globe wouldn't (and couldn't, as a matter of his paper's policy and his contract) sign [the Headliner's] waiver, and the tour manager eventually relented and let him shoot. Smaller players like myself have no leverage, so it's either knuckle under or walk. I decided to walk.

I hope you understand.

Sincerely,
Tim

[DDCSD]

Did you try the cross-out route?

Let us know if they respond.

[narlus]

Did you try the cross-out route?

Let us know if they respond.

from my post:

I did explain this to the Live Nation media relations person, and she went back to [Band X's] people on my behalf to see if the first clause could be crossed out, but they did not agree to this.

the show was last night. they responded by not altering the waiver.

[londonblue007]

Way to go Tim!

[DDCSD]

from my post:

I did explain this to the Live Nation media relations person, and she went back to [Band X's] people on my behalf to see if the first clause could be crossed out, but they did not agree to this.

the show was last night. they responded by not altering the waiver.


Oops, missed the Live Nation person line. That's what I get for trying to catch up with POTN at lunch. I would probably have just crossed out the part and see if they said anything.

I meant to let us know if the "Major Label Person" that you addressed the letter to responds.

[DennisW1]

I was confronted with my first rights-grab photo waiver last night, from an OPENING band...who the fck do they think they are? Here was my response today to their label:

Hello Major Label Person -

Thanks again for helping to set up my photo pass/approval for [Band X] on such short notice. Unfortunately, I didn't shoot them, and photos of the band will not be in the [Headling Band] photo gallery to be published @ [the outlet I was shooting for] shortly.

The reason is that I objected to the rights waiver which was presented to me (attached). It's one thing to have rights restricted to editorial use for the specific outlet you are shooting for (much like [the Headliner's last night], and others that I have signed), but to transfer over complete copyright and control of my photos, without any compensation to me, is frankly insulting. You may not be aware of this policy (it might be band management-specific), but I just wanted to let you know my perspective. I did explain this to the Live Nation media relations person, and she went back to [Band X's] people on my behalf to see if the first clause could be crossed out, but they did not agree to this.

There does seem to be a groundswell of increasingly restrictive shooting conditions and now rights grabs that the concert photography community is being subjected to, and it's blatantly unfair in my opinion. I suppose the big players are still immune to this. The shooter for the Boston Globe wouldn't (and couldn't, as a matter of his paper's policy and his contract) sign [the Headliner's] waiver, and the tour manager eventually relented and let him shoot. Smaller players like myself have no leverage, so it's either knuckle under or walk. I decided to walk.

I hope you understand.

Sincerely,
Tim

I realize it would take a lot more than one person or one media outlet doing this to have any effect, but if suddenly no photographs of these greedy bastards were being taken anywhere by anyone maybe it might make a point. You can't rights-grab what doesn't exist.

[blackshadow]

Excellent work Tim. I wonder what the response you get will be.

Keep us posted. BTW I met the managers of the band in question last year when they were out here and they were damned good blokes - it would have been interesting if you could have gotten through to them directly.

Cheers, Richard

[BJWOK]

nice work tim. i would like to see any reply you may get too :)

richard how did you get the name of the band from tim's post?? :)

[constrict]

When HOB presented me with a contract I misspelled my name, put a different address and date. F-them.

[johnstoy]

Well written Tim... At least you stood your ground and conveyed the message clearly and to the point... Maybe next time, they'll remember and reconsider, on what a fair deal should be.

[londonblue007]

nice work tim. i would like to see any reply you may get too :)

richard how did you get the name of the band from tim's post?? :)


My guess is Richard knew who Tim was shooting and therefor knew who the openers were.... I'll give you a single hint.... tim was shooting in boston (in a neighborhood called fenway)at a large outdoor stadium that is rather famous normally does not have concerts. google what you know about this stadium with the date 8/5 and you'll figure it out. :D

[narlus]

well i was also more explicit in the post i made to the concert photography group on Flickr. :D

[René Damkot]

Very well written Tim!

Let's hope they get the message :)

Were there any more shooting that night? Did they sign?

[narlus]

rené, i was the only one approved to shoot the opener (which i thought was weird...if you get approved to shoot one of the biggest pop stars in history, why not also automatically get approved for an opener most haven't heard of)...the McCartney publicist told me the pass was good only for Paul, so i contacted the opener's label contact and got approved (there was no mention of a waiver at that time).

[totalphoto]

Narlus, may I ask how they get your images, if you did agree to shot?

[totalphoto]

And a good point about the opening act. At the last show I was at I asked how do I shoot the opening act? They all looked at me and said why? WHY? Why the hell am I here!!!!!
Many shallow-minded people here!

[narlus]

Narlus, may I ask how they get your images, if you did agree to shot?

i didn't agree to shoot. read post #13 again.

[totalphoto]

I read it, I was just wondering how they get your stuff if you do. Do they heard u like cattle to a computer? Take your cards & Dump them all??? I could not imagine this? I totally understand that you did not shoot.

[DDCSD]

i didn't agree to shoot. read post #13 again.

Did you ever get a response from where ever you sent that letter/email to?

[narlus]

I read it, I was just wondering how they get your stuff if you do. Do they heard u like cattle to a computer? Take your cards & Dump them all??? I could not imagine this? I totally understand that you did not shoot.

i've personally never been in this situation, so i am not certain. i suppose there are various ways to approach this, including the draconian one you mentioned, down to the more lax approach of expecting you to send the files afterwards. if you don't, i suppose you could be blacklisted by the publicist for future assignments.

and no, i never heard a response back.

[totalphoto]

Got ya! Thanks!

[jsphotos]

PDF file not available

[DDCSD]

PDF file not available

Comes up for me.