Hey ump, read the rules!

[Curtis N]

I think we've all heard fans tell umpires to look at the rule book, but I've never seen them actually do it until yesterday.

Close play at the plate, kid goes in standing up. Ball bounces off runner. Runner at home called safe as two other runners advance before the ball is recovered.

Coaches for the defense say he has to slide and should have been called out. They check the league rules, then the official little league rule book. After ten minutes they stick with their call and the run counts.

Of course this was in the 6th inning of the championship game and the run in question tied the game. The good news is, the team that lost that argument won the game so the umps are off the hook and no one can say they influenced the outcome.

http://performancephoto.smugmug.com/photos/590460944_Bn5FK-L-2.jpg

[gecko3s]

Never heard of the "you have to slide into home plate" rule...

[snyderman]

Yep, in LL, sliding to ANY base when a play is being made is the rule. It's for safety reasons and to avoid collision. the coach who called the play were correct. The runner should have been called out for not sliding. Oh, and you have to slide feet first UNLESS a runner is going back to a base he's already occupied or safely passed.

Good thing the team that got the 'free run' didn't end up winning by a single run or things would have gotten ugly.

Sign me ... LL umpire of hundreds of games!

dave

[cstewart]

The rule here in BC is called the "Slide or Avoid" rule and states, "if a play is being made, or is about to be made, it is MANDATORY for players of all age groups to slide or make an effort to avoid a collision at all bases and home plate. Failure to do either will result in an automatic out. The ball is dead and no runner may advance beyond the base that was legally acquired. An umpire will have the option of ejection if the incident warrants such a measure."

The rule was designed primarily to avoid catchers getting steamrolled at the plate, however the fact that it applies to ALL bases and that it states in part "...or a play is about to be made..." introduces some gray area into this rule. It sounds in your case like the runner should have been called out, but I guess the umps felt that the play could not have been made...or alternatively, if there was no collision, perhaps they felt he "avoided"? The rule becomes even more gray when a runner stealing second for example goes in standing up, does not slide, and there is close play...technically he should have slid and many a coach has argued this point based on the rule (some with success), even though from a traditional baseball sense, the runner WAS safe and it was at his own risk of not sliding to possibly be tagged out.

I'd also be interested in knowing who brought the rules on to the field. Generally if a COACH does this, many umpires will eject them from the game as I always understood that a coach can not bring a rule book on to the field...I am not sure if this is technically against the rules, but at least I think it is technically against the "umpire rules"...ie showing the umps up or something, and they will not be pleased!

[Curtis N]

Well, it was Little League.
;)
There were two other runners behind the guy going into home. The kid was just running, probably had no idea the play would be at home, or if a play was being made at all, since it was all happening behind him.

Also, the coaches on the offensive team argued that the catcher can't block the plate without the ball, which he was doing (in my opinion).

I didn't hear the ump's explanation as to why they decided that way. But it seems like a pretty tough call to me. Umping Little League has to be one of the most thankless jobs in the world, and my hat's off to anyone willing to put up with the crap they get.
Sign me ... LL umpire of hundreds of games!

dave
Dave, just curious, have you ever pulled out the official rule book during a game?

[Sledhed]

My oldest daughters softball league has a slide rule. If there's a play at the plate you have to slide or you are out.

[Darsk47]

I'd also be interested in knowing who brought the rules on to the field. Generally if a COACH does this, many umpires will eject them from the game as I always understood that a coach can not bring a rule book on to the field...I am not sure if this is technically against the rules, but at least I think it is technically against the "umpire rules"...ie showing the umps up or something, and they will not be pleased!

Agree big time ! I've seen it happen.....was on the field in a game when a coach came roaring off the sidelines, book in hand, crossed that line to the 'fair territory' and the ump ran him right there.

Ol' Blue then said something like "try to show me up will ya" .... ! ! :lol:

[caroleigh]

We were in a similar situation this past weekend.

Kid coming home, catcher ran down the line and initiated contact (reached his glove out - I missed this shot, wish I had gotten it). Our runner had not attempted to slide just yet because the kid came down the line. They made contact and the ball popped out.

Kid coming home was called out, not for not sliding, but for not avoiding contact. Funny thing is the ump had just told us the game before he threw a kid out for sliding into the catcher and taking his feet out. Had this runner slid it would have been the same thing, with the catcher coming down the line like that.

It was argued that had he tried to not make contact he would have been out of the baseline and would have been called out anyhow. Ump said untrue, they wouldn't have called him out of the baseline for avoiding a collision....which I know is bull because had they not, they should have. You can't go out of the baseline, period. Coaches have always told our kids (no matter what coach they have played for) if they are in the baseline, or on the bag, run through them, you have rights to the base.

Not the best shot, but you get the idea.
http://i811.photobucket.com/albums/zz39/caroltrentlerphotography/IMG_0350-web.jpg

[caroleigh]

btw, my husband has coached for 14 years and says he agrees with the umps that your runner is safe.

[cstewart]

Carol:

Does not matter how long anyone has been coaching (me for almost the same amount of time), as the rule seems to always change depending on the ump and the rule simply leaves too much of a gray area to always be enforced properly (as in your example). I have seen runners called out at plate for not sliding on wild pitches when the pitcher is not even covering and there is no play and I have seen pitchers in same situation when covering get run over with no call on the runner. It would be nice if there was a simple way to clarify and enforce the rule but I am afraid it will always be up to umpires and coaches differing opinions of what constitutes a "play being made" or what constitutes "avoidance". All I can hope as a coach is that it does not cause an issue in a big game. For my players, I err on the side of caution and tell them to slide in pretty much all cases.

Cheers!

Chris

[dlpasco]

First - I like the photo ;)

Anyone who umps or refs youth sports is special. It is a thankless job. My hats off to blue and zebra suited folks.

Just for grins, I found this: http://www.fld9.org/rules/myths.php?answer=11#11

[Curtis N]

First - I like the photo ;)Thanks. I happened to have a good vantage point for the shot, and I think it does a good job of telling the story.Just for grins, I found this: http://www.fld9.org/rules/myths.php?answer=11#11
From reading that link, I would think the umps made the right call in this case, since the catcher did not have the ball.

My nephew was on the losing team, coming up with second place in the league for the second year in a row. He's the most intense 12-yr-old athlete I have ever seen, and the counterpart to this intensity is that he takes it pretty hard when he loses. Of course, sometimes you learn more valuable life-lessons from losing than from winning.

In any event, I would rather deal with disappointed kids than overzealous, pi$$ed off parents any day. A few immature buttheads in the stands can really take the fun out of a ball game.

http://performancephoto.smugmug.com/photos/590459536_9bGwF-L-2.jpg

[mikekelley]

When I coached I hated this rule. Sliding is a great way to break the catcher's ankle...and I've seen that happen. Yikes. It's just kind of a lose/lose thing, but I think the rule needs to go. I think if the runner intentionally tries to take out the catcher with no attempt to avoid him, you can call him out, but if he runs across the plate and isn't even near the catcher, he shouldn't be called out.

Oh well. It's a grey area and just a thing you have to deal with in little league

[Odie23]

Curtis, we had just about the same thing happen here in MD on Sunday. North Calvert All Stars vs Baden All Stars, (Girls fast pitch softball) Baden batter hits a ball towards second, Runner on first heads to second. Ball hits the runner heading to second, then bounces to the second baseman. She picks up the ball and throws out the girl heading to first. Ump calls both girls out. (Outs 2 & 3) Baden coach goes nuts, Baden assistant coach gets loud enough to get tossed, and the NC Coach tells the ump he missed the call as well. Umps go to the rule book and after a lengthy review reversed the call. According to little leauge fast pitch rules if a runner is hit by a batted ball, that runner is out; however the ball is then dead. Ump reversed the out on first since the ball was dead, then asked the asst. coach if he had calmed down, and told him that since it was his error, he would allow the coach to remain in the game. All in all I thought the umps did a good job of reversing their bad call and making it right.

Odie

[MJPhotos24]

We had a game lost this year because of this "rule" where the umps told us there was a slide rule when there wasn't and when the other team didn't slide he said there was none contradicting himself allowing the run to score. However, there's no such thing as a slide rule in most leagues (official little league does not have one - other leagues calling themselves little league and not affiliated are not supposed to be calling themselves that btw). The leagues who have it are BEGGING for a law suit if a kid slides and breaks his leg by forcing him to do it. Usually a "no-collision" rule is better where you avoid colliding and a slide is one way of doing it. The UMPS were 100% correct!! The leagues who have the slide rule are 100% stupid IMPO - should be just a "no collision rule".

[MT Stringer]

I captured a similar play at a 13 Y/O tournament last year. The runner decided to run over the catcher. However, the catcher stood his ground, made the tag and didn't drop the ball. Not only was the runner out, but the ump ejected him from the game for not sliding.
Mike

[caroleigh]

True, once the ball hits the runner the ball is dead. We had the exact same thing as you described...the same game as our runner getting out in the pic above.

Curtis, we had just about the same thing happen here in MD on Sunday. North Calvert All Stars vs Baden All Stars, (Girls fast pitch softball) Baden batter hits a ball towards second, Runner on first heads to second. Ball hits the runner heading to second, then bounces to the second baseman. She picks up the ball and throws out the girl heading to first. Ump calls both girls out. (Outs 2 & 3) Baden coach goes nuts, Baden assistant coach gets loud enough to get tossed, and the NC Coach tells the ump he missed the call as well. Umps go to the rule book and after a lengthy review reversed the call. According to little leauge fast pitch rules if a runner is hit by a batted ball, that runner is out; however the ball is then dead. Ump reversed the out on first since the ball was dead, then asked the asst. coach if he had calmed down, and told him that since it was his error, he would allow the coach to remain in the game. All in all I thought the umps did a good job of reversing their bad call and making it right.

Odie

[DD974]

Yeah, it's all about safety in LL...they just can't "Pete Rose" a catcher at the plate. In one instance like this at the plate the HP ump was the District Admin and he still had to pull out the rule book.

[asysin2leads]

I've been officiating football the 13 years. My dad and I are on the same varsity crew, which is great in my book. We've only had to take the book out once in that time to clarify a rule. It's not so much as not knowing the rule, but getting the right application of a rule. I've played football at the college level and have even coached it. It's amazing the number of coaches who don't know the rules. The general public doesn't have a clue what the rules of the game actually are unless they've coached or officiated. Unfortunately, it's those idiots in the stands who are booing out of their own stupidity. If you are really interested in impacting the game, especially at the lower levels, become an official. You'll be surprised at how much you thought you knew, but didn't. Also, there is NOT an "Uncatchable Ball" rule in high school football.

[alwaysonephotography]

asysin2leads has it right. This is all the fault of the defensive coaches. They should know the rules inside and out and should ALL be carrying a rule book in their back pocket. If this was a LL game then this was an obvious blown call by the umps.

From the original poster:

Close play at the plate, kid goes in standing up.

He even used the word "play" in his description.

Ball bounces off runner.

I'm assumming this didn't happen as the runner was returning to the dug out :). I'm betting by the description it happened at home plate.

As an umpire the ONLY way I could see this being called any differently is if the catcher was no where near home plate. Again from the original post I making the assumption this is not the case or it wouldn't have been a close "play."

The runner is out. Disagree or not this is the rule and a pretty obvious interpertation of the rule. There was much better example of a "gray" ruling in the thread where the catcher ran up the line.

There were also some bad examples given here. Wild pitch and the pitcher doesn't cover, runner is called out. Again, I bet the coach did not have a copy of the rule book to prove his point. How can any umpire look you in the face and say their was a PLAY at the plate but there was no one their to receive the ball. I realize you get your nut jobs but in my experience if you presented your case in writing (rule book) to a LL ump, they will reverse the call.

The catcher not having the ball means nothing....if this was the case runners would come into bases and swat the ball out of the air with their hands or body. This is covered in the rules as well. These rules have developed over years of play and in almost all cases are very well thought out.

And BTW, yes you can go out of the baseline. One of the most misunderstood rules in baseball. Sit down and watch a baseball game tonight. You will see runners on a double rounding first base that are over 12' out of the baseline between first and second base. How are they doing it? Because there is no rule that they may not leave the baseline. The rule is that you may not go more than 3' feet out of the way to avoid a tag.

There were two other runners behind the guy going into home. The kid was just running, probably had no idea the play would be at home, or if a play was being made at all, since it was all happening behind him.

Unfortunately, for this young man, ignorance doesn't excuse you from the rules. It just has to be that way, or people would take advantage always pleading "I didn't know". For example, if you enter a state that has a "No turn on RED rule" it won't fly in court that you didn't know the law. It's your responsibility. And from a coaching stand point this is poor coaching because the batter on deck should have been signaling the runner to GET DOWN play is at home.

A catcher is not allowed to block the plate with or without the ball. However, if a catcher has TWO feet planted on the ground then it is understood by umpires that this is not blocking the plate. Pretty hard to argue you can't find a place to get your toe in on a 15" x 15" object because two feet are in your way.

However, sitting on the plate, laying down in front of it, bending your leg so your shin completely covers the part of the plate nearest the baseline (most common) would all be considered blocking the plate. With or without the ball.

Rule books at game? ALL the time. Coach comes out screaming "He's out of the baseline, blah, blah, blah." Pull out the rule book, toss it to him. Read, page 17 section 5.4 and tell me what you think.

The reason you don't see it on a professional level is for the most part (99%) EVERYONE (coaches, players and umpires) no the rules inside and out. This also why you rarely see an arguement in the major leagues about rules. The arguements are overwhelmingly about judgement calls (tags, homeruns, fair/foul poles, etc.).

On the amatuer level, not so much. In fact it's probably way under 5% of the people who fully know the rules inside and out. Unfortunately, this includes umps, but they should ALL be carrying rule books.

A perfect example of this is the infield fly rule. If you see one on a MLB game, all the player, coaches, umpires and even the announcers calmly go about their business and get on with the game. When this happens in a LL game. BEDLAM! Naturally, the fans are the worst but umpire enough and you get it from players and coaches as well.

Unfortunately, in this case, they couldn't find it or they ruled this wasn't a "PLAY" at home plate. "PLAY" should be defined in the rule book as well.

[MJPhotos24]

Should ALL be carrying a rule book in their back pocket.

True, as a coach I agree with this and have been on both ends of a call where we didn't have the rule book handy to prove the official wrong as varsity rules differed from modified or vice versa.

If this was a LL game then this was an obvious blown call by the umps.

100% wrong!! The umps got it right. It's only a dead ball when it's batted and hits a runner, on a throw it can hit the player or ump and is still in play, i.e. "live" ball. Actually on a batted ball it can hit the umps and is live, but not a runner. Where do you get the umps were wrong?

I'm assumming this didn't happen as the runner was returning to the dug out :). I'm betting by the description it happened at home plate.

That only proves the point the ball was still in play. Actually the ball can hit a player going back to the dugout and still be in play.

As an umpire the ONLY way I could see this being called any differently is if the catcher was no where near home plate. Again from the original post I making the assumption this is not the case or it wouldn't have been a close "play."

I'm confused, you said the umps were wrong but in this say it can't be called any differently? The ruling was right by LL rules.

The runner is out. Disagree or not this is the rule and a pretty obvious interpertation of the rule. There was much better example of a "gray" ruling in the thread where the catcher ran up the line.

The runner is safe, you're wrong by what the rule book says as there is no "slide" rule in the LL handbook...and you spelled interpretation wrong :cool: Even if a catcher is up the line as long as he has or will have the ball he can still block the plate or line and tag the runner out.

There were also some bad examples given here. Wild pitch and the pitcher doesn't cover, runner is called out.

What? Wild pitch the runner scores easy as there's no play and is safe.

Again, I bet the coach did not have a copy of the rule book to prove his point. How can any umpire look you in the face and say their was a PLAY at the plate but there was no one their to receive the ball. I realize you get your nut jobs but in my experience if you presented your case in writing (rule book) to a LL ump, they will reverse the call.

WHAT??? Seriously you're making no sense at all. Even the "no collision" rule says you have to avoid colliding when they do cover. If they don't cover the plate there is no rule and the runner is safe. What are you talking about??

The catcher not having the ball means nothing....if this was the case runners would come into bases and swat the ball out of the air with their hands or body. This is covered in the rules as well. These rules have developed over years of play and in almost all cases are very well thought out.

I'm sorry but you have no idea what you're talking about. When you try to knock the ball away as a runner either in air or in the glove to knock it out it's called interference (it's called obstruction if a defensive player does it).


And BTW, yes you can go out of the baseline. One of the most misunderstood rules in baseball. Sit down and watch a baseball game tonight. You will see runners on a double rounding first base that are over 12' out of the baseline between first and second base. How are they doing it? Because there is no rule that they may not leave the baseline. The rule is that you may not go more than 3' feet out of the way to avoid a tag.

You need to read a rule book man, seriously. The base line rule is to avoid being tagged out and not for rounding the bases. For the base line rule to apply it needs to be for reason. You need to run out of the base line to avoid being tagged out, not just in general. You're not reading the rules correctly.

Unfortunately, for this young man, ignorance doesn't excuse you from the rules. It just has to be that way, or people would take advantage always pleading "I didn't know". For example, if you enter a state that has a "No turn on RED rule" it won't fly in court that you didn't know the law. It's your responsibility. And from a coaching stand point this is poor coaching because the batter on deck should have been signaling the runner to GET DOWN play is at home.

I agree, and teach my kids I coach to let there teammates know to slide (hook, straight, avoid slides, etc) but you have this ruling 100% wrong.

A catcher is not allowed to block the plate with or without the ball.

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!! You do not know baseball at all if you think this.

However, if a catcher has TWO feet planted on the ground then it is understood by umpires that this is not blocking the plate. Pretty hard to argue you can't find a place to get your toe in on a 15" x 15" object because two feet are in your way.

Not a rule, not anywhere even close to the rule book. Please explain this and point out the rule number (section 6 underline .05 for example - extra points if you know what 6.05 is).

However, sitting on the plate, laying down in front of it, bending your leg so your shin completely covers the part of the plate nearest the baseline (most common) would all be considered blocking the plate. With or without the ball.

Huh? That's blocking the plate and is legal if you have and/or about to have the ball.

Rule books at game? ALL the time. Coach comes out screaming "He's out of the baseline, blah, blah, blah." Pull out the rule book, toss it to him. Read, page 17 section 5.4 and tell me what you think.

What?

The reason you don't see it on a professional level is for the most part (99%) EVERYONE (coaches, players and umpires) no the rules inside and out. This also why you rarely see an arguement in the major leagues about rules. The arguements are overwhelmingly about judgement calls (tags, homeruns, fair/foul poles, etc.).

The pros also know that you spell it "know" and not "no". You don't see arguments in the majors about rules??? I'm sorry but I shoot 150-200 pro games a year and hear arguments all the time about rules. Most the time it's about judgment but you do hear about rules very often.

On the amatuer level, not so much. In fact it's probably way under 5% of the people who fully know the rules inside and out. Unfortunately, this includes umps, but they should ALL be carrying rule books.

I agree with that, this year was the worst for umps in our league and the coordinator confirmed that saying it was the worst year in 20 years for reviews. When I told an ump about a rule stating the section and byline he was dumbfounded. However, as mentioned, the umps got it 100% right in this call.

A perfect example of this is the infield fly rule. If you see one on a MLB game, all the player, coaches, umpires and even the announcers calmly go about their business and get on with the game. When this happens in a LL game. BEDLAM! Naturally, the fans are the worst but umpire enough and you get it from players and coaches as well.

I guess you missed that in the last week there has been two disputed infield fly rules called in the majors with coaches saying it shouldn't of been called because the player was in the OF grass. However, the rule states it's the discretion of the umpire on how far it goes into the OF grass.

Unfortunately, in this case, they couldn't find it or they ruled this wasn't a "PLAY" at home plate. "PLAY" should be defined in the rule book as well.

Sorry, but you're wrong...very, very, very, wrong. Most of what was said is wrong or an example of not understanding the rules. I make my entire living in baseball as a coach, ump, and photog, and 99% of what was stated is not right or even close to it. Sorry.

[Mtjtc4]

Not to get off topic but as a LL Umpire, the umpires ruled correctly. The rule states that the runner must slide to avoid contact. The rules also states that the defense player must have the ball in his glove in order for that rule to be enforced not simply in flight to a bag or plate. It is also on the LL website under the umpire section under the section that gives examples of plays. anyway sorry for getting off topic.




Yep, in LL, sliding to ANY base when a play is being made is the rule. It's for safety reasons and to avoid collision. the coach who called the play were correct. The runner should have been called out for not sliding. Oh, and you have to slide feet first UNLESS a runner is going back to a base he's already occupied or safely passed.

Good thing the team that got the 'free run' didn't end up winning by a single run or things would have gotten ugly.

Sign me ... LL umpire of hundreds of games!

dave

[snyderman]

I'm seeing some misconceptions of rules and interpretation of said rules.

1) Any baserunner struck by a batted ball in fair territory is out every time. A baserunner struck by a thrown ball (or booted ball already touched by a defensive player) is NOT out and the ball remains live--provided the runner isn't clearly out of the basepath and attempting to obstruct or take away a defender's ability to field the ball and/or make a play.

2) A fielder is allowed to block a base provided he/she is in the process of making a play on the ball. If no play is being made, it is not allowed.

3) Back to the runner not sliding in the little league game. He is by rule supposed to slide, thus reducing likelihood of injury. The operative words (again) are 'when a play is being made.'

On a base hit to right field and a runner trots in from 3rd to home scoring a run, there is no need to slide if no play is being made. And again, in Little League, the operative words are 'when a play is being made.' Same at ANY base except first.

I can't cite the rulebook section and number because it's not with me. But I can say that having umpired hundreds of games from LL all the way through HS ball, I've only seen a fraction of the head-scratchers that CAN and DO happen during a game. Also a firm believer in knowing and correctly interpreting the rules, seeing plays clearly as they happen and being decicive in your calls takes 99.9% of the guesswork from an umpires job. More importantly, it nearly eliminates arguments from coaches and managers during the game.

dave

[MJPhotos24]

Problem still is in the official LL handbook there is no slide rule and never has been. There's some leagues that call themselves LL when they are not officially affiliated with them in any sense, and some of those leagues have a slide rule - which I still think is absolutely stupid and will not be surprised one bit when a law suit pops up because of it. It's kinda scary seeing so many umpires saying there's a slide rule when there isn't in official LL. I really hope you mean your own leagues that are not affiliated with the national LL association or you need a brush up on the rules. It's a no collision rule, you must avoid contact and sliding is ONE of the options to do this.