(softbox vs beauty dish) sample pics

[RLipp69]

Does anyone have sample pictures of the same subject useing a softbox then a beauty dish with and without the grid?Thanks in advance.

[Gaussian_Blur]

:) Check out this website:

http://www.bron.ch/vt_pd_lg_sc_en/index.php

[TMR Design]

Good site but it doesn't offer a shot with a beauty dish. The rectangular Softlite reflector is a beauty dish of sorts but I don't think it's what the OP wants to see.

[Gaussian_Blur]

Click on the modifier and compare images:

http://www.profoto-usa.com/products/lightshaping/softlight.asp

:cool:

[kenwood33]

Are you trying to decide if it is worth while to buy a beauty dish? If so you might want to compare it against a small softbox umbrella instead.

[TMR Design]

Does anyone have sample pictures of the same subject useing a softbox then a beauty dish with and without the grid?Thanks in advance.

Since no one else has posted images I decided to create some samples that will hopefully show you what you want to see and let you see the differences between some modifiers.

The next 2 posts contain my samples.

[TMR Design]

The following images were all shot at f/11 with the modifier placed 4 feet from the subject at 45 degrees off the lens' axis and with the center of the modifier aligned with the subject's eyes. The subject is 4 feet from the background. There is no fill source other than whatever light may be bouncing off the floor, ceiling or walls, but it's fairly controlled and you should be able to see relative differences in softness, shadows and specular highlights. I metered for the highlights.

The first image is with a Photoflex 36" x 48" softbox. The second set of images are shot with a Photoflex 24" x 32" softbox, first with no grid and then with a grid.

[TMR Design]

This next image was shot with a Photoflex 16" x 22" softbox and the set of images that follow are with the Speedotron 22" beauty dish, first with no grid and then with the grid in place.

[abdul10000]

great comparison Rob!

Quick question why did you keep the light low relative to the model? The nose shadow is horizontal and almost starting to point upward.

one more question, did you place the BD at 4ft? Isn't the beauty of BD is that you can have them much closer to the model than other large light modifiers without showing up in the picture frame?


Thanks

[Gentleman Villain]

Good site but it doesn't offer a shot with a beauty dish. The rectangular Softlite reflector is a beauty dish of sorts but I don't think it's what the OP wants to see.

Hey that new shot of Shannon from the avatar looks really clean :D

[lukeap69]

very very good examples rob.

i noticed that grids make the shadow more pronounced.

thanks for these.

[abdul10000]

i noticed that grids make the shadow more pronounced.




yes, that is because there is less spill from the light source. This also happens with softboxes, when lighting a face only I prefer smaller softboxes because I can control the shadows more. If I want less shadows I bring a reflector panel on the other side.

[TMR Design]

great comparison Rob!

Quick question why did you keep the light low relative to the model? The nose shadow is horizontal and almost starting to point upward.

one more question, did you place the BD at 4ft? Isn't the beauty of BD is that you can have them much closer to the model than other large light modifiers without showing up in the picture frame?


Thanks

Thanks abdul.
The light isn't really that low relative to the model but the reason why I placed it where I did is because I wanted to show the shadow as it traveled down the neck to see the highlight to shadow transition. I also didn't want to raise it up and create an angle because I felt that would be more difficult to keep constant for direct comparison, whereas by having the modifier parallel to the subject with the center aligned with the eyes made it easy to be consistent and accurately compare the modifiers.

If I had moved the beauty dish closer to the subject then I'd be comparing apples to oranges. A distance of 4 feet is not that unusual, even for a beauty dish and you can easily see how the 36" x 48" softbox is creating very soft transitions with and the specular highlights are not pronounced. As you move to the smaller softbox or the 24" x 32" softbox with grid you can see the highlight to shadow transition changing, more pronounced specular highlights and the light is not wrapping to the shadow side of the face as it did with the 36" x 48" box.

You can also see that the beauty dish gives you quite a bit of spill and uncontrolled light without the grid but once the grid is added, not only do you see the effect it has on the subject, but you can also see the effect it has on the spill and the directionality of the light as it hits the background.

[TMR Design]

Hey that new shot of Shannon from the avatar looks really clean :D

:D Thanks Mike. That's actually one of my favorites from the most recent Shannon shoot.

[TMR Design]

very very good examples rob.

i noticed that grids make the shadow more pronounced.

thanks for these.

The shadows are more pronounced because there is greater directionality and the light is not as scattered and diffused. This gives a harder shadow edge and more contrast, which in turn means a less gradual transition from highlight to shadow.

[TMR Design]

great comparison Rob!

Quick question why did you keep the light low relative to the model? The nose shadow is horizontal and almost starting to point upward.

one more question, did you place the BD at 4ft? Isn't the beauty of BD is that you can have them much closer to the model than other large light modifiers without showing up in the picture frame?


Thanks

I almost forgot... regarding the shadow off the side of the nose. It is pointing upward because the nose on the mannequin is a small noise that does point up. The shadow is not pointing any further up than the nose itself. Also, with a nose like that you'll find that it's very difficult to create standard loop lighting without the rest of the shadows looking very nasty. In order to get the loop to point down towards the corner of the mouth the modifier would have to very high and in an unnatural position to properly light the facial mask.

[MrScott]

So why the fake catchlight in the mani's eyes? Come on paint out the confusion...

Also, it doesn't look like the SB grid made any difference on the BG, where as the grid on the BD made a big difference on the BG. Is that because of the size of the SB vs. BD or are the grid angles that much tighter on the BD?

Thanks!

[TMR Design]

So why the fake catchlight in the mani's eyes? Come on paint out the confusion...

Also, it doesn't look like the SB grid made any difference on the BG, where as the grid on the BD made a big difference on the BG. Is that because of the size of the BD vs. SB or are the grid angles that much tighter on the SB?

Thanks!

The demonstration is about shadow, highlight to shadow transition and the effectiveness of a grid. I did not paint out the fake catchlights because it has nothing to do with the demonstration and so far no one else found this to be confusing.

There is an absolute difference in the amount of light that reaches the background with the grid as compared to the amount of light without the grid. Remember that the subject is 4 feet from the background and the light source is 4 feet from the subject. The crop is fairly tight as well. Given a softbox with a recessed edge, a 24" width and a 40 degree grid there isn't going to be a change in shadows on the background.

With a 22" beauty dish the spread and spill are greater than with the softbox and the grid increases directionality much more than the 40 degree fabric grid used in the softbox. I believe the grid for the beauty dish gives you about 20-25 degrees.

[george m w]

There is an absolute difference in the amount of light that reaches the background with the grid as compared to the amount of light without the grid...
On that subject, a few weeks ago, in my inexperience with all this, I asked for examples of when I might use a "black reflector". Several folks pointed out what should have been obvious to me that there are times when I might need to block light from getting to part of the scene. I saw this attached diagram, which I thought of when I saw Rob's above post. Rob, I know you were not talking about this specifically, but it jogged my memory and made me think I 'need to try this'......having the 'flag' to 'not have spill light on the backdrop'

[TMR Design]

On that subject, a few weeks ago, in my inexperience with all this, I asked for examples of when I might use a "black reflector". Several folks pointed out what should have been obvious to me that there are times when I might need to block light from getting to part of the scene. I saw this attached diagram, which I thought of when I saw Rob's above post. Rob, I know you were not talking about this specifically, but it jogged my memory and made me think I 'need to try this'......having the 'flag' to 'not have spill light on the backdrop'

HI George,

Flags, gobos, cutters, dots, fingers and scrims are all tools for regulating and controlling how much light, and if light is going to various parts of your scene/shot.

You can block light from reaching your background or if you have a small space with white walls you can control light that might be returning to your subject area or background from those walls. If you're working in a small space and rendering a background as pure white you can also use flags/gobos as a means of controlling the light returning to your subject that may be introducing wrap.

[Hermes]

Free-standing flags are good. Grids and barndoors are better - they're more precise, they can stop spill in all directions and they take up less room.

I don't have a huge studio and the ceilings are white, but if I take an exposure with no model in place and no background lights switched on, then the frame always comes out pure black. No light from the key, fill, accents, hairlights, e.t.c. spills or bounces anywhere because everything is gridded. Everything suddenly becomes 1000 times easier when you have things under control like this.

In many ways, the differences between a beauty dish and a similarly-sized softbox aren't that huge once they're both properly controlled and not adding any fill through spilt/reflected light. The beauty dish (especially if it's silver) will have a slightly sharper shadow transition and throw out light that's hotter in the centre, but both modifiers can be used for soft, even lighting and darker, contrasty lighting in the hands of a good photographer. The beauty dish is the more versatile tool as you can add a diffuser to the front and basically turn it into a softbox when needed, but you're definitely not limited if you only have access to a softbox.

[george m w]

Rob,
For years I just tried to get the best photos I could using nothing but available light and leaving myself mostly at the whim of how that light naturally fell on the scene. About six months ago, I realized I really needed to take more proactive control over the situation....and so now I find myself playing with all this cool stuff like studio lights, softboxes, grids, reflectors, gobos, scrims....man, it has opened up a whole new world for me to think and create in.
This is all just do much fun, and it's really given me a far deeper appreciation for the guys and gals that have truely mastered this. The possibilities are essentially endless.

Thanks for your helpful comments and contributions....I read as many of you posts as I can...good info.

[george m w]

The beauty dish is the more versatile tool as you can add a diffuser to the front and basically turn it into a softbox when needed, but you're definitely not limited if you only have access to a softbox.
Hermes,
Thanks for the comments. I started out with a large softbox about a month ago, and was a bit confused for a while as to whether I could see the value in a beauty dish. After looking at some really nice photos where a BD was used, I decided that I'd get one. I really have not had the time to play much with it yet....but I got a grid for it and also the diffusion sock....so I'm looking forward to getting busy with it. I've bought a lot of cool stuff recently....I now just need more time to learn to use it !

[abdul10000]

The light isn't really that low relative to the model but the reason why I placed it where I did is because I wanted to show the shadow as it traveled down the neck to see the highlight to shadow transition. I also didn't want to raise it up and create an angle because I felt that would be more difficult to keep constant for direct comparison, whereas by having the modifier parallel to the subject with the center aligned with the eyes made it easy to be consistent and accurately compare the modifiers.

ok, this makes perfect sense, especially the part about keeping the angle the same.


You can also see that the beauty dish gives you quite a bit of spill and uncontrolled light without the grid but once the grid is added, not only do you see the effect it has on the subject, but you can also see the effect it has on the spill and the directionality of the light as it hits the background.

you were using the 35 degree grid?

I almost forgot... regarding the shadow off the side of the nose. It is pointing upward because the nose on the mannequin is a small noise that does point up. The shadow is not pointing any further up than the nose itself.

very interesting point, I have noticed this problem before too. To summarize some faces can never create decent Rembrandt lighting pattern. From my experience it was always the nose that caused the problem. Some noses are too small or point up or are bumpy? to create such lighting pattern.

Also, with a nose like that you'll find that it's very difficult to create standard loop lighting without the rest of the shadows looking very nasty. In order to get the loop to point down towards the corner of the mouth the modifier would have to very high and in an unnatural position to properly light the facial mask.

I know this is out of the topic but can you kindly post an image of the mannequin with the problem you describe above. I think I know what the picture will look like but I just want to confirm we are talking about the same thing.


Thanks!

[TMR Design]

you were using the 35 degree grid?

I'm using the Kacey grid. I'm not exactly sure of the angle, but it's pretty tight.


very interesting point, I have noticed this problem before too. To summarize some faces can never create decent Rembrandt lighting pattern. From my experience it was always the nose that caused the problem. Some noses are too small or point up or are bumpy? to create such lighting pattern.


Correct.


I know this is out of the topic but can you kindly post an image of the mannequin with the problem you describe above. I think I know what the picture will look like but I just want to confirm we are talking about the same thing.


Sure. Here you go.

The first image shows the loop coming off the nose pointing down towards the corner of the mouth and you can see how making that happen has created pretty horrible lighting on the rest of the face, eyes and neck. I metered for highlights. Not pleasing at all. The height and angle of the light is not even close to anything you would use normally, even if you were going for a shot with greater contrast and hard transitions between highlight and shadow.

The second image is simply a profile to show how short the nose is and how it turns up. That's just about the worst combination to have if you're going for classic loop lighting.

The last image is a 'pull back' so you can see the position of the softbox relative to the subject. That's the 24" x 32" box.

[Conner999]

As an FYI, look at the bottom of this page (and their You Tube videos). No dedicated BD samples per se (vs octa with silver diffuser), but some nice enlargable (sic?) samples of (what looks to be the 39" normal-depth) octa w/wo various deflectors, diffusers and a model, same light location, etc - shows differences in shadow definition, wrap, etc.

[TMR Design]

As an FYI, look at the bottom of this page (and their You Tube videos). No dedicated BD samples per se (vs octa with silver diffuser), but some nice enlargable (sic?) samples of (what looks to be the 39" normal-depth) octa w/wo various deflectors, diffusers and a model, same light location, etc - shows differences in shadow definition, wrap, etc.

What page? You did not include a link.

[Conner999]

#$%!, knew I should have had that extra cup of coffee...

http://www.theflashcentre.com/rotalux-softbox-system-c161.html

Not owning a BD as yet (70cm Rota and 53" Octa + deflectors) , what would be the substantive differences (other than white vs silver of course) between the light modifying effect of a large BD vs. a 39" Octa with silver deflector?

[TMR Design]

Oh I see. I've seen those images before. Unfortunately, web optimized jpg's of that size make it very difficult to really see detail and slight changes in contrast. Even though the Deep Octa can simulate the look of the beauty dish there's no getting around the fact that it's a 39" modifier and most dishes (other than some really large ones) are in the 22"-27" range.

[TMR Design]

Not owning a BD as yet (70cm Rota and 53" Octa + deflectors) , what would be the substantive differences (other than white vs silver of course) between the light modifying effect of a large BD vs. a 39" Octa with silver deflector?

Size, coverage, directionality, specularity and the hot spot.

[Conner999]

Just to clarify, I'm talking the 39" reg Octa, NOT the deep (which would be more directional) with the larger Elin deflectors vs. the larger Elin BD (same deflectors of course).

[TMR Design]

Just to clarify, I'm talking the 39" reg Octa, NOT the deep (which would be more directional) with the larger Elin deflectors vs. the larger Elin BD (same deflectors of course).

Size, coverage, directionality, specularity and the hot spot. :D

[Conner999]

... :D

[abdul10000]

Sure. Here you go.



Awesome! many thanks for the test.

I also noticed that if the nose is bumpy it will produce an irregular shadow triangle. The inner edge of the shadow will not resemble a clean line and the triangle will look more like a blob.


#$%!, knew I should have had that extra cup of coffee...

http://www.theflashcentre.com/rotalux-softbox-system-c161.html



Great link, thanks for posting

[TMR Design]

Awesome! many thanks for the test.

I also noticed that if the nose is bumpy it will produce an irregular shadow triangle. The inner edge of the shadow will not resemble a clean line and the triangle will look more like a blob.


My pleasure.

Any irregularities will show up in the shadow and the shape and contour of the nose is something to look at when doing a facial analysis of your subject. For some subjects, Rembrandt lighting is not going to work well or be very flattering.

You always have to be careful when trying to create the loop because placement of the light source will affect all other aspects of the way the face and facial mask are modeled. Granted, there are times that we may want drama or want the eyes in shadow but most often that is not the case. I pay particular attention to the eyes and if my lighting doesn't let me see the eyes or at least have a nice bright eye closest to the light source then I light the subject differently.

[Conner999]

Abdul, as Rob indicates, they aren't the largest pic samples, even when enlarged, but they give a 'macro level' idea of the differences. Just wish they had a BD sample. For newbies to (especially) Elinchrom kit like my lonesome, their You Tube videos are also great.

Am toying with idea (too many lenses, not enough variety in lighting gear) of an Eli BD, but the Speedotron mod looks good as well given that also can get sock and grid...

[MR do little]

Am toying with idea (too many lenses, not enough variety in lighting gear) of an Eli BD, but the Speedotron mod looks good as well given that also can get sock and grid...

The sock is available for both Elinchroms BD, getting a grid requires a small mod for 70cm dish, unless you get one that fits like i did (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=8219117&postcount=242). (there are a few 3rd party grids in right size) For the smaller it will require some precise cutting and drilling/rivets. (buying a larger grid and "resize" it)



Just to let you know. ;)

Kindest

[Conner999]

Thanks Paul. The Lencarta unit looks interesting.

[MR do little]

No problem Conner, just know that Lencarta has changed their grid, (the picture on their website is not representative any more) It now has metal clips that attach to the profile of the dish, and the Elinchrom is thicker then the Lencarta so it wont fit unless you do a quick mod and drill those clips off and rivet some "spring" blades of a sort.

Reason for this (wich is obvious once you have handled a grid in this size) is that grid is not very easy to attach without proper technique and i guess some people dropped their grids more then once... :-)



Kindest

[Conner999]

Thanks again Paul