Am I Charging Too Much

[Jacobredphoto]

I have been asked to shoot a 15nera A.K.A. Quincenera. From what I've heard from other photographers as well as family that have been to those, they say it's VERY similar to shooting a wedding. So that's where I started my pricing base from, a package in my area goes for around $1600.00-$1800.00 plus the cost of the album and DVD of images. Let me be clear that I am comfortable, but not satisfied with my work. I'm renting the following:

2X BG-E5 Battery Grips
70-200mm f/2.8
85mm f/1.8
Backup XSi
580EX II

The total of this all is $333.00 so I figure a $350.00 deposit would be called for to cover my expenses.

I was thinking of charging around the $600.00-$800.00 for full coverage of the event and a CD of the images. Is this too much?

Thanks for any help, I have learned so much in the last few months thanks to the wonderful people on this forum!

EDIT: I'm considering if they decide to pay me the entire cost up-front to give them a discount of $50.00.

[Karl Johnston]

I suggest not renting the gear, work with what you have, forget about the added expense..its just not needed.

I think you should do it for a bit less than 800, more towards doing your first gig for free. I'm not sure how you would be paid an amount like 800...being 15 years old and all it can be a handicap (though shouldn't, it is) without anything to show for a portfolio related to this type of photography.

It takes time to get used to the new gear, and learn how to use it. The 70-200 2.8 and the backup XSI...probably will be overkill. Work with what you have, don't worry about buying any extras right now.

Shoot a couple, 2 or 3 or so and then I think it would be appropriate to start charging hundreds. I believe there is more to covering a wedding than the actual photography, (or related event); learn the ropes, have fun, don't sweat and gain some portfolio stuff ;)

I also suggest, if you do demand a payment of anything or for future reference: I use a 55% deposit/retaining fee which acts to book the appointment and commit the client to my business (rather than saying, at the last minute, they will go with someone else this enables the added incentive to stay with me...it protects their slot, and ensures all the work I've researched or done for their project wasn't for nothing).

55% up front, 45% at the end of the shoot when the product is delivered.

Have fun!

[Krapo]

Sound advice. By the way I like your pictures, Karl :)

[sry407]

Karl,
Just curious why you dno't think renting an extra body is a good idea, especially since it's the same body (no learning curve). I think getting new equipment you're not familiar with (like the flash and 70-200) could be trouble as you pointed out, so agreed there.

My two cents is to have a second body, just me though.

[Christopher Steven b]

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I was under the impression that these and similar gigs [bat mitzvahs e.g.] range from $400-$800. Given that you don't seem to have any experience shooting such events and given that you aren't offering what many pros would be offering [do you have a backdrop for portraits and group shots? a softbox?] you should perhaps consider something lower.

Just to give some perspective, I shot my first large event [a bat mitzvah] for an obscenely piddly sum. The clients knew they were getting a deal because of my inexperience and so they adjusted their expectations accordingly [read: I didn't sweat it nearly as much]. They took a risk that paid off wonderfully for them--and I gained experience. Would I ever shoot another for that [again, piddly] sum? God, no. But I can only say that having gained the confidence from doing.

[Christopher Steven b]

oh--and if it were me, I would rent the 70-200 and the 580ex and that's all.

[Karl Johnston]

Karl,
Just curious why you don't think renting an extra body is a good idea, especially since it's the same body (no learning curve). I think getting new equipment you're not familiar with (like the flash and 70-200) could be trouble as you pointed out, so agreed there.

My two cents is to have a second body, just me though.
From a practical point of view I can see you are right; it would be a good idea to invest in a second body for the learning experience and to get used to it..though if he has to pay to rent one, then it's probably just best to work with the couple of lenses that he has and save the extra cash. That said there is a bit of a learning curve that he may not be ready for, as it takes time to adjust to developing a system or a rhythm of shooting two bodies and lenses at once. Probably just best to go with the one body and the couple of lenses and keep it as simple as possible before working up.

I think maybe a little bit of money is called for to accept his time, of course, but I don't think anyone with no experience would get away with charging full price or even half price that a pro would.

I haven't shot a wedding before, yet on my website my prices are pretty standard for my area...on the low range, in fact.

My first three weddings I have booked this season are 1/3 of the price. It was part of an advertisement I sent around "First 3 are 2/3s of the price!"

That said I'm an internationally printed professional nature photographer :o...so that's got to count for something, eh? I know my way around the camera and there's a lot more to my business than my photography, the experience, the printing options, etc.

My regular rate is 150$/hourly, so if I factor that in that works out conveniently to nearly coming to what 66% off would be subtracted from each package.

First one is this week :o at 500$ (minus printing expenses).

Jacob: Thanks, I'm happy you enjoy them :)

[egordon99]

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I was under the impression that these and similar gigs [bat mitzvahs e.g.] range from $400-$800. Given that you don't seem to have any experience shooting such events and given that you aren't offering what many pros would be offering [do you have a backdrop for portraits and group shots? a softbox?] you should perhaps consider something lower.

Just to give some perspective, I shot my first large event [a bat mitzvah] for an obscenely piddly sum. The clients knew they were getting a deal because of my inexperience and so they adjusted their expectations accordingly [read: I didn't sweat it nearly as much]. They took a risk that paid off wonderfully for them--and I gained experience. Would I ever shoot another for that [again, piddly] sum? God, no. But I can only say that having gained the confidence from doing.

I shoot Bar Mitzvahs. I'm really cheap. $500 gets you an hour at the synagogue for photos (can't shoot during the ceremony) of reading the torah, group shots, etc... and two hours coverage at the reception. An additional hour is $75. You get a DVD of full resolution processed JPGs about two weeks after the event (along with a print release) I started out charging $300 for the first 3 hours of coverage but recently raised my rates.

My first wedding I charged $300. I had no real wedding portfolio, the couple knew this, they took a chance on me. It paid off for both of us. I did an engagement session, and provided about six hours of coverage on the wedding day, and gave them a DVD of JPGs.

OP - For the first "gig" like this, you should cut them a deal and once you have some more experience/images in your portfolio, you should raise your rates. Good luck!

[egordon99]

That said I'm an internationally printed professional nature photographer :o...so that's got to count for something, eh?

Deer are alot more cooperative than a bridezilla :lol:

Good luck with your weddings! I'm teaming up with a good friend to second shoot with her for a few weddings coming up.

[Jacobredphoto]

Karl,
Just curious why you dno't think renting an extra body is a good idea, especially since it's the same body (no learning curve). I think getting new equipment you're not familiar with (like the flash and 70-200) could be trouble as you pointed out, so agreed there.

My two cents is to have a second body, just me though.

The minimum that I can rent the gear is for 7 days so I'm giving myself about two days (I know not a lot but enough for me to get comfortable) and I may be able two line up two more customers in that time period so I'll be efficient while I have the gear :D. To be the hired 'professional' at the event and NOT have the second body freaks me out because I know that's the time that something would go wrong with mine.

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I was under the impression that these and similar gigs [bat mitzvahs e.g.] range from $400-$800. Given that you don't seem to have any experience shooting such events and given that you aren't offering what many pros would be offering [do you have a backdrop for portraits and group shots? a softbox?] you should perhaps consider something lower.

Just to give some perspective, I shot my first large event [a bat mitzvah] for an obscenely piddly sum. The clients knew they were getting a deal because of my inexperience and so they adjusted their expectations accordingly [read: I didn't sweat it nearly as much]. They took a risk that paid off wonderfully for them--and I gained experience. Would I ever shoot another for that [again, piddly] sum? God, no. But I can only say that having gained the confidence from doing.

oh--and if it were me, I would rent the 70-200 and the 580ex and that's all.

I'm not sure where you live at but in my city in New Mexico they are a large business, SOMETIMES they are even LARGER than wedding, haha. I do not have backdrops or anything like that and I will of course let them know that.

From a practical point of view I can see you are right; it would be a good idea to invest in a second body for the learning experience and to get used to it..though if he has to pay to rent one, then it's probably just best to work with the couple of lenses that he has and save the extra cash. That said there is a bit of a learning curve that he may not be ready for, as it takes time to adjust to developing a system or a rhythm of shooting two bodies and lenses at once. Probably just best to go with the one body and the couple of lenses and keep it as simple as possible before working up.

I think maybe a little bit of money is called for to accept his time, of course, but I don't think anyone with no experience would get away with charging full price or even half price that a pro would.

I haven't shot a wedding before, yet on my website my prices are pretty standard for my area...on the low range, in fact.

My first three weddings I have booked this season are 1/3 of the price. It was part of an advertisement I sent around "First 3 are 2/3s of the price!"

That said I'm an internationally printed professional nature photographer :o...so that's got to count for something, eh? I know my way around the camera and there's a lot more to my business than my photography, the experience, the printing options, etc.

My regular rate is 150$/hourly, so if I factor that in that works out conveniently to nearly coming to what 66% off would be subtracted from each package.

First one is this week :o at 500$ (minus printing expenses).

Jacob: Thanks, I'm happy you enjoy them :)

Karl, I surely appreciate your input! I just don't think my current gear would cut it, all I have is the kit lens and Tamron 28-80mm and a flash that I have to control completely manually. The extra body is for experience as well as peace of mind. It freaks me out to not have an extra body if I'm the actual hired pro.

I shoot Bar Mitzvahs. I'm really cheap. $500 gets you an hour at the synagogue for photos (can't shoot during the ceremony) of reading the torah, group shots, etc... and two hours coverage at the reception. An additional hour is $75. You get a DVD of full resolution processed JPGs about two weeks after the event (along with a print release) I started out charging $300 for the first 3 hours of coverage but recently raised my rates.

My first wedding I charged $300. I had no real wedding portfolio, the couple knew this, they took a chance on me. It paid off for both of us. I did an engagement session, and provided about six hours of coverage on the wedding day, and gave them a DVD of JPGs.

OP - For the first "gig" like this, you should cut them a deal and once you have some more experience/images in your portfolio, you should raise your rates. Good luck!

Thank you! I'll definitely keep those numbers in mind.



Okay all, I've decided to charge much less, I had a feeling I was charging to much based on my experience or lack-thereof. I am renting the following:

(1) BG-E5 Batter Grip for my main camera
(1) 70-200mmL IS
(1) Backup XSi (I know Karl advised against it but it's more for me than it is for them :o)
(1) 580EX II

The total of this is $246.00 so I'll ask for a $250.00 deposit.

I feel comfortable charging $350.00 for X? of hours and $10.00 for each additional hour, is this cheap enough?

Thank you all so much for helping me with all of this!!!! :D

P.S. Of course I will still offer $50.00 discount off the total if they decide to pay all of it up-front.

[nicksan]

Keep in mind, the higher the price, the higher the expectation.

I recently started doing paid shoots. For all of them, I shot something for free (concert, baby portraits, etc.) just for the fun of it and they came back to me for paid shoots.

It's a pretty comfortable way to start b/c you know they like what they see and want to pay you now.

I did one shoot for a small business. I charged them a package price based on my hourly rate, which I set the same as what I make in my real career outside of photography. I am using my free time for these shoots, so I figure that's the least I could ask for.

[Jacobredphoto]

nicksan, that is very true. I feel MUCH MUCH MUCH more comfortable with revised pricing. I have done free work in the past for a few people. This one came about by word of mouth. Like I said since I'll have the gear for 7 days I'm going to see if I can line up two other customers that are interested during that time period.

[nicksan]

nicksan, that is very true. I feel MUCH MUCH MUCH more comfortable with revised pricing. I have done free work in the past for a few people. This one came about by word of mouth. Like I said since I'll have the gear for 7 days I'm going to see if I can line up two other customers that are interested during that time period.

Sounds good. Good luck to you!:D

[Krapo]

Keep in mind, the higher the price, the higher the expectation.


There is certainly a correlation between price and expectations, but I think that there is a HUGE gap between free of charge and ANY fee you ask.

Asking $350 is fine, but they will still expect you to deliver as a "pro".

[Jacobredphoto]

Krapo, I do realize they will still expect a professional and I will try my absolute best to present myself as a professional and deal with things professionally even if I'm freaking out in my own head. Of course I will try me very best to provide the absolutely utmost quality of the photographs, the free pictures I've done before were a while ago and done with my Fujifilm P&S, while I was completely dissatisfied with the products and my ability at that time, the customers were absolutely blew away and were impressed with the pictures so I KNOW that I will do much better this time as my skills have improved drastically as well as my gear selection!

[Jacobredphoto]

Forgot to add that those revised prices will of course include the CD of the images as well!

[RDKirk]

There is certainly a correlation between price and expectations, but I think that there is a HUGE gap between free of charge and ANY fee you ask.

Asking $350 is fine, but they will still expect you to deliver as a "pro".

This is very true. Rarely do people appreciate a "good deal." If they have to pay anything at all, they expect the same quality of service that Paris Hilton would expect. And then they'll still gripe about how much they paid.

[Jacobredphoto]

Thank you everyone for your helpful and knowledgeable replies, it's very much appreciated!

RDKirk, I realize that. I'll just have to handle everything thrown my way professionally, easier said than done but I know if I set my mind to it, I can do it.

[wizeguy4]

I personally would purchase teh opteka battery grip for 80 and get the 2 batteries and get to keep it when everything is all said and done. I dont know what you are renting it for though

[Saxi]

This is very true. Rarely do people appreciate a "good deal." If they have to pay anything at all, they expect the same quality of service that Paris Hilton would expect. And then they'll still gripe about how much they paid.

+1 100%, even $.01 isn't and will cause dramatically different expectations. I would do whatever you can justify as your minimum is, if they don't want to spend that, then move on. You both need to be happy or the quality and experience will suffer.

I too would forgo the rentals, in fact, I wouldn't get any of the gear and just buy a 580EX II for inventory. The price will run you about the same and you will be better equipped for future work. The 70-200 is probably Canon's best piece of glass, but you CAN do without it and perhaps not having it will give you a better feel for the event.

With that said, I have never done a wedding and I will likely never will. I do candid of my son and family parties, so feel free to ignore everything I said.

[nicksan]

^Absolutely!
But sooner or later you become a little tired of being thrown around doing free bee work. If they want to pay you because they saw your work, then that makes things a lot easier to handle. I know it does for me.

[SOK]

I have been asked to shoot a 15nera A.K.A. Quincenera.

For the benefit of the ignorant Aussie, could you explain what this (assuming the names refer to the same thing?) is?

[Karl Johnston]

For the benefit of the ignorant Aussie, could you explain what this (assuming the names refer to the same thing?) is?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quincea%C3%B1era

Sort of like a latin version of a bar mitzvah

[RDKirk]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quincea%C3%B1era

Sort of like a latin version of a bar mitzvah

Or rather, a bat mitzvah.

[Karl Johnston]

:o woops typo

[Jacobredphoto]

I personally would purchase teh opteka battery grip for 80 and get the 2 batteries and get to keep it when everything is all said and done. I dont know what you are renting it for though

That is one of the things I will buy with the money earned from this. I already have 1 Canon battery that came with my camera and 2 amazing off brands. I'm renting it because it's not real expensive and I've heard it helps balance out a camera with a longer lens plus I have very large hands so I think it would make camera holding more comfortable plus allows for longer shooting times and incase of something bad happening I can use AA's as a power source. Not to mention I'd imagine I'll be doing a lot of portrait style orientation so it will help with comfort as well!

Wow, who knew I had that many reasons to rent one. I didn't :lol:.

Thanks again for all the help guys!

[Saxi]

That is one of the things I will buy with the money earned from this. I already have 1 Canon battery that came with my camera and 2 amazing off brands. I'm renting it because it's not real expensive and I've heard it helps balance out a camera with a longer lens plus I have very large hands so I think it would make camera holding more comfortable plus allows for longer shooting times and incase of something bad happening I can use AA's as a power source. Not to mention I'd imagine I'll be doing a lot of portrait style orientation so it will help with comfort as well!

Wow, who knew I had that many reasons to rent one. I didn't :lol:.

Thanks again for all the help guys!

You should be more than ok without the grip, especially if you forgo the 70-200 rental. I heard there was something up with the Optech grip, it is missing something like the other two buttons or wheel or something that turned me off when I looked for a grip for the 50D. It is only $159 to buy new, to save less than $80, I would just buy the Canon one.

I wouldn't rent a thing, and pass the savings on to them and get the experience. If I was to do anything, I would get a 580EX II (if you ever plan to use more than one flash off camera) or the 430EX II if you just want an on-camera flash. Put the money into buying one rather than renting. You can practical sell the thing after your shoot and be into it about the same just by renting it.

You have plenty of gear to do a decent job without renting anything. Yeah it isn't prefect, but you can still get good shots and the client should be happy. Take the money saved on rentals and use it to buy one piece for the next gig. It won't be long and you will have everything you need and by then you will be much better with it as well, and have a start at a portfolio.

This advice is as a business person, not as a photographer. I do not make a dime for my photography, I do it all for fun for taking pictures of my 2 year old. I have run my own business for over 10 years and am giving advice in that capacity.

[Jacobredphoto]

Thanks so much Saxi. Your advice is being taken very seriously and is very much appreciated from a different viewpoint.

The one that I might rent is a Canon but I can't bring myself to pay that much for a grip yet.

I'm starting to re-consider the extra body and considering down-grading the flash to a 430EX II.

[Jacobredphoto]

Saxi, do you by any chance have any photographs of the Bg-E5 grip. All I can seem to find is a straight-on view of the front :/.

[Saxi]

Saxi, do you by any chance have any photographs of the Bg-E5 grip. All I can seem to find is a straight-on view of the front :/.

I have a different grip for my 50D.

But Google image search pulled up a lot of photos:
http://images.google.com/images?oe=UTF-8&q=Bg-E5&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi

[Jacobredphoto]

Thanks, hehe. I didn't even think of doing an actual image search. I'm actually considering getting this one :)!

[Saxi]

Thanks, hehe. I didn't even think of doing an actual image search. I'm actually considering getting this one :)!

If you have any interesting in getting an XXD or xD camera in the near future, I would wait on the grip, it isn't a game changer as a good flash or lens would be. It is great if you do a lot of portrait shooting (which I do) but I very comfortably shoot portrait without the 2nd button before I got it. It also doesn't look like you have a lot of big heavy lenses to worry about either. The battery life of a single battery should be more than sufficient to do a shoot if charged before.

[Jacobredphoto]

I don't have any plans in the near future. My parents were kind enough to buy this one for me and I feel it will take me a while to use it to it's fullest abilities. Not to mention I don't have the current funds to buy my dream cameras, haha.

Dang it you all are just narrowing my gear selection down more and more as we speak. Now I don't think I'm going to rent the battery grip.

I absolutely refuse to budge on the Canon 70-200mm though. I WILL get this lens in my hands :lol:.

[Saxi]

I don't have any plans in the near future. My parents were kind enough to buy this one for me and I feel it will take me a while to use it to it's fullest abilities. Not to mention I don't have the current funds to buy my dream cameras, haha.

Dang it you all are just narrowing my gear selection down more and more as we speak. Now I don't think I'm going to rent the battery grip.

I absolutely refuse to budge on the Canon 70-200mm though. I WILL get this lens in my hands :lol:.

The 70-200 is my favorite by far, but you would be perfectly fine without it.