Rant: 580ex I vs II - Master/Slave switch

[shutterfiend]

Why Canon would phase out a super helpful feature and relocate it deep within the menu system is quite beyond me.

In the real world, 2 seconds is not a viable waiting time. Period.

[bobbyz]

Isn't that was done when they added the sync port?

[40Dude6aedyk]

Canon probably figured out that most of their customers do not have more than one flash and do not do the master/slave thing. They probably had many complaints about that switch being "accidently'" set by mom and dad and then things not working as expected. Next they will probably take the on-camera FEC control and make it only work by pressing 3 buttons simultaneously for 6 seconds, then 2 other buttons in a special sequence of down, wait, down, down, down, wait, wait, up, down.


PS: Here is an example of a photo of a 580EXII posted on this forum that amazed me. Someone must have been randomly pressing buttons to get the LCD to show what it shows:
[link deleted to protect the guilty]

[timecut]

http://pixsylated.com/2009/07/syl-arena-canon-speedlite-wishlist/

[Jannie]

I agree, you can get used to some of the menu if you're using the speedlights regularly but I notice I kind of have to retrain myself if I haven't used them in a while. Mayb that is part of why I stopped using Ettl and use them in Manual and trigger with skyports. Ettl is a neat idea that isn't very dependable foe me and the 580 menu system sucks big time but yhe actual 580ex11 is a great source of light and I'm thinking of feeding a third head. My old 420Ex was easier in some respects to use as a slave with the manual slave switch and the other manual buttons. I repeat, the 580ex11 menus system sucks and is anything bit intuitive, the logic behind having layers and having to find what you want to set and then having to go through that with sveral heads while trying ro get set up quickly stinks. Logically and intuitively it's easier to use manual which seems ludicrous. Canon could take a good lesson from the designers of the MKIII menu layout which is wondeful , whoever designed the 580exII menu reminds me of old time PC software where you had to know why to go into to fond Th next thing to go into to find what you wanted to fi d so you could turn it on but then you had to remember which file to choose from to choise the type of turn on switch you want to use. End of rant.

[Jannie]

And then they could teeach me how to type better on my iPhone!

[GerBee]

Why Canon would phase out a super helpful feature and relocate it deep within the menu system is quite beyond me.

In the real world, 2 seconds is not a viable waiting time. Period.

It's ALMOST totally USELESS ....... ove the years I've owned it, it's become my biggest gripe [apart from the ill fated 1DMKIII]

I got one of the first ones and this was my immediate gripe

[pgruiz123]

they did it because they want to mass market the 580 EXII and not just to advanced users. As someone said the casual user will slide the switch and forget they did it. A very high percentage will never use the master/slave function, but hey they have the top of the line speedlight.

But let me join in the rant, I too believe that it was in a more logical place.

[Curtis N]

The 580EX II is weather sealed, the original 580EX was not.

Possibly the off/master/slave switch as originally designed would have been difficult to make waterproof?

Just a theory.

[pgruiz123]

Making the lever on the 580 EX weather sealed would have been no more difficult than making the on/off lever on the 580 EXII weather sealed.

[Green Li]

Why Canon would phase out a super helpful feature and relocate it deep within the menu system is quite beyond me.

In the real world, 2 seconds is not a viable waiting time. Period.
Please forgive me my "ignorance", but could you give an example of a scenario when you need to switch from master to slave in less than 2 seconds?
Thanks!

[Hermes]

Please forgive me my "ignorance", but could you give an example of a scenario when you need to switch from master to slave in less than 2 seconds?
Thanks!

You're shooting with the on-camera flash as a non-firing trigger or as the fill in a high-ratio setup with slaves on booms, umbrellas, e.t.c. held by an assistant - something goes wrong, you lose the wireless connection to the slaves or you spot something across the other side of the room and you quickly need to switch the on-camera flash back to working solo so you don't miss crucial moments. Not having a physical button to turn off the wireless ettl will screw you over good and proper :)

[Underscore]

Canon probably figured out that most of their customers do not have more than one flash and do not do the master/slave thing.

If you fork out the dough on a 580, regardless whether it is I or II, then you are either 1 of 3 things:

1) Don't know about light, but learning to get to the point of using master slave
2) Already know and bought the flash for that purpose
3) Don't care about how much money things cost and you just buy the most expensive willy nilly.

[Green Li]

You're shooting with the on-camera flash as a non-firing trigger or as the fill in a high-ratio setup with slaves on booms, umbrellas, e.t.c. held by an assistant - something goes wrong, you lose the wireless connection to the slaves or you spot something across the other side of the room and you quickly need to switch the on-camera flash back to working solo so you don't miss crucial moments. Not having a physical button to turn off the wireless ettl will screw you over good and proper :)
Good example. Thanks!

[shutterfiend]

Please forgive me my "ignorance", but could you give an example of a scenario when you need to switch from master to slave in less than 2 seconds?
Thanks!

I shoot weddings. At the reception halls I usually have two speedlights on stands. The third one's (master) on my camera.

Sometimes I might have to shoot outside the reception hall, sometimes I might have to shoot in another area where the stand lights won't reach. In either case, it helps to switch the master off .

Then when I get back to the reception hall I usually start shooting before I realize that I have the master switched off. And then I can watch cake being smeared or the bouquet flying across the room while I hold the pesky button down for 2 long seconds.

[Green Li]

I shoot weddings. At the reception halls I usually have two speedlights on stands. The third one's (master) on my camera.

Sometimes I might have to shoot outside the reception hall, sometimes I might have to shoot in another area where the stand lights won't reach. In either case, it helps to switch the master off .

Then when I get back to the reception hall I usually start shooting before I realize that I have the master switched off. And then I can watch cake being smeared or the bouquet flying across the room while I hold the pesky button down for 2 long seconds.
Got it. I've been thinking in about MASTER/SLAVE cases. But you guys referring to MASTER/OFF ones.
I do understand that MASTER/OFF switching also takes 2 seconds and, indeed, creates a problem. It's just I've been thinking about a different thing.
Thanks!

[CliveyBoy]

Possibly the off/master/slave switch as originally designed would have been difficult to make waterproof?
My guess is that they made the change so that the camera's flash control menus could control this aspect of the flash. Canon could not allow the switch to visually indicate one setting, and the camera menu to set it differently.

The old three-position switch, or any substitute I know of, is not capable of being moved by programming logic to match the "stored" state.

[Jannie]

I actually no longer care why, I simply really dislike fiddeling around with the menus system and have dropped all desire to try using the my 2 580exII's ETTL, the infared doesn't work dependably enough to consider it a viable tool for me.

Seldom do I ever use on camera flash and had purchased two different length ETTL cords for off camera flash. After messing around with all of that for a month, The whole kit ihas been religated as extra gear for table top shooting, ETTL be damned and the same to the menu. I,ve stopped carrying them and am only using them for some neat small lights with my strobes.

[Jannie]

Here is what I have been using the 580EXII's for: Actually I'm probably wasting them here and should probably put them in the food section.

This one is one with hard light skimming in from the side and the other with a Kaiser umbrella softbox for the fill (there is also a white card for additional fill.
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb200/palousegirl/PhotobucketA.jpg

This next one is a 580EXII in a Kaiser umbrella softbox for the key and then the other one raw to pop up the rim in the background, plus card in front.
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb200/palousegirl/PhotobucketB.jpg

This last one is shot on my apartment stove, a 580EXII was on a flex arm hanging back over the counter with a Lumiquest little bounce thing with the white diffusion over the front, and then I had another raw one coming right along the tripod and I had it hit a piece of computer paper from behind and held up under the lens to fill the beans in a bit. These lights are really shining for this kind of work. The last two days I've been using a Deep Octa and the 69" octa from Elinchrom and then adding the 580EXII's with snoots as kickers. So they have not been a waste of money after all but I have abandoned most of my ideas for using them as a portable strobist kit.
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb200/palousegirl/PhotobucketC.jpg

[mattograph]

I used to miss this switch, but then, when I moved to the radiopoppers, I realized there is a feature I'd rather have more. I have three 580 EX IIs, two remotes and one as a controller. All three stay in set the same way all the time -- controller is Manual group A, Remote 1 is Group B, Remote 2 is Group C. Once again, All three stay in manual, which is a great setup as I can change power on any of the remotes right from the camera. What I would love to have, then, is a "flash on/off" switch. In the off position, the flash is just a controller. In the on position, the flash fires at the appropriate power for fill, candid, what not.

[mattograph]

@ Jannie -- I hope you made enough for everyone! :)

[Jannie]

Oh-oh, I'm caught!!! I grew up in farm country where a lot of people hunted. I remember my friends saying they would never hunt anything just for sport and they ate everything they shot.

Well I'm eating everything I shoot too, but mine are with a camera. My daughter called about 5 days ago and asked me to do a bunch of vegetable shots to adorn the kitchen of her new apartment, so with no more than that I've been going to the market and buying the produce for my lunch and dinner with the intention that I will photograph it first, it's been a fun project and have to say I did eat the boiled beans but just blanched them in the water and then saute'd them with olive oil and they were very good lol.

[CliveyBoy]

I actually no longer care why, I simply really dislike fiddeling around with the menus system
I can understand your frustration, Jannie, and sympathise.

By using the camera's flash settings controls, I find the setting process fast and much more certain, as the LCD on the camera provides so much more information. Even the enabling or disabling of inter-related options is clearer.

I think that there is only one configuration that fulfills the promise of Canon flash implementations - a camera body which provides full external flash control (with customised menus for quick access); a camera-controllable master flash (not an ST-E2); and RadioPoppers (not Pocket Wizards) to carry the communication link.

[Jannie]

I'll check that out, I've never even looked at the flash settings in the menu page on the MKIII, I think there is one, hmmmm not sure. It's a good light as a light source but very expensive considering. If they took out the menu and just gave us manual, and then took out the infrared I wonder what they could sell them for. Yeah I know it's supposed to be a on board flash with all the rest as an afterthought; methinks someone needs to re-think the whole thing. Everytime I look at that red plastic on the front of my flash, it makes me think I'm driving dad's 1951 Plymouth with a brand new Cadillac engine.

[Curtis N]

My guess is that they made the change so that the camera's flash control menus could control this aspect of the flash.This is the most plausible explanation I have read so far.

[Jannie]

Well I checked the speedlight controls in the Menu and yes it's easier to scroll through to set up but not to actually make adjustments while out shooting. To + or - the general exposure and the other setting for the + or - in the flash, it's much easier to push a button and spin the control wheel on the back of the camera rather than push menu, click over to set up II, scroll down to the bottom to speedlight control, then click on that and you now have another menu of controls. Hopefully who ever designed that one gets a job over in N Korea designing missles, they'll have the rocket off and running before they ever get the silo door open.

[Tiberius47]

You're shooting with the on-camera flash as a non-firing trigger or as the fill in a high-ratio setup with slaves on booms, umbrellas, e.t.c. held by an assistant - something goes wrong, you lose the wireless connection to the slaves or you spot something across the other side of the room and you quickly need to switch the on-camera flash back to working solo so you don't miss crucial moments. Not having a physical button to turn off the wireless ettl will screw you over good and proper :)

However, in such a situation, you will need to set your off camera flashes to work in the Canon wireless system, so you're going to be taking a while to set that up anyway. You can easily set the 580 to master while you walk over to the flash.

Anyway, I set my master settings through the camera, not the flash.

[Hermes]

However, in such a situation, you will need to set your off camera flashes to work in the Canon wireless system, so you're going to be taking a while to set that up anyway. You can easily set the 580 to master while you walk over to the flash.

Anyway, I set my master settings through the camera, not the flash.

The slaves are set up at the beginning of the event/day and stay there or are held by an assistant for the rest of the day. Sometimes you want to use them and have your on-camera flash add just a touch of fill, sometimes you want your on-camera to light the entire subject on its own. The point is you can switch between the two setups as often as you want at the flick of a button.

[roger767]

when I need TTL I use my 580EX but when Im using off camera flash I have my 3 Nikon SB 80DX's. Far better than my 580! Canon really went backwards with the 580EX II more menu's and less buttons/switches. At least they added a PC sync port. But no optical slave :(.
Its time for canon to make some bold moves concerning their flashes, they're too conservative. And their lagging behind Nikon.

[GerBee]

they did it because they want to mass market the 580 EXII and not just to advanced users. As someone said the casual user will slide the switch and forget they did it. A very high percentage will never use the master/slave function, but hey they have the top of the line speedlight.

But let me join in the rant, I too believe that it was in a more logical place.

Actually, Canon themselves defended their position because of the new locking collar. I can accept this explanation ~ But ~ regardless of aesthetics, I WANT this switch back [obviously in a different position, I like the locking collar]

[Jannie]

'll go with that part of Canons defense about the locking collar, it is much better. It never occurred to me that I can use Nikon flashes if I'm not using ETTL and off camera.

Not fully understanding what was said about radio poppers, I'd like to understand more about what you are doing.

Does this mean I could have a radio popper transmitter on the camera and my two off camera 580exII's set on manual and be able to change the intensity of the 580exII's from the camera or the transmitter.

[CliveyBoy]

Regarding RadioPoppers...
www.radiopopper.com

The Canon wireless system uses light pulse for the master to command any slaves. It works well, at times. There is always the line-of-sight, short distance, and swamping problems. A Radiopopper transmitter intercepts the light pulses, converts it to radio information, and RP receivers translate it back to light pulse and feed them into the slaves' receptor windows.

Essentially, whatever can be done in good circumstances with Canon Wireless flash can be done in a hugely wider range of circumstances with RPs added into the mix. Pocket Wizards work differently - they seem to be generating their own control coding, which means they can do more things and differently. However, RPs are pure Canon-compliant, and a new flash with new coding should be compatible with RPs. (The RP Junior units expected "soon" are rather different.)

To use RPs, a master flash unit (580EXii is ideal) is needed on-camera, to which an RP transmitter is attached. Each slave needs an RP receiver. (Hybrid configurations are possible.) The new series of PocketWizards do not require a master flash.

Why isn't everyone using RPs? They already have working systems, or do not need the range and reliability, or prefer PWs, or are pig-headed, or prevented by cost. Cost is a major, as is non-availability of European and Australasian frequency-approved units. Those who have RPs are simply getting on with business, and have little need of frequenting places like this forum. :)

[vadim_c]

Please forgive me my "ignorance", but could you give an example of a scenario when you need to switch from master to slave in less than 2 seconds?
Thanks!
Are you kidding me ? It is more difficult to come out with an example when 2 seconds is enough than vise versa.

[vadim_c]

It is not the first example proving that there is a lot of very smart engineers at Canon but unfortunately none of them is a photographer.

A combined AF assist and the onboard flash is another obvious example.