How many photos to give?

[korrektor]

I shoot mostly portraits (you may see my posts for examples) and I have this giant dilemma of how many photos to give to my clients in the end.

Since I retouch the photos, retouching changes the appearance from very little to very significant difference. This is why I can't have a proofing site. It will compromise the artistic integrity. Therefore I pick their best shots. So far not a single client walked away disappointed.

My roomate (lol i know) thinks that I should give all the images to my clients, since they all call me for more photos of them since they know I have at least 600 more. He also tells me that if I want to sell more I have to listen to the clients.

I always tell my clients that they will be getting only a certain number
of photos (usually 6-10 retouched) for the price they pay. Additional images are $20 each. Is this fair?

I can go on forever but the botom line is

1. How many photos do I give?
2. Do I let the clients to choose their own shots from RAW unretouched shots?

please help me, I'm about have a fit :))

[Karl Johnston]

What I do is just do some minor edits in DPP, filter out the really bad shots using the rating system (1, its keepable, 2 its sellable, 3 its gotta be printed!)

Usually I end up with about 10% 3s, 30% 2s and the rest are 1s

The horrible ones I just delete right away that don't meet the cut at all (blinks, bad pose, off center smile, etc.)

Now, I offer a slideshow with all of my portrait packages for a reason...not only is it a little extra to add, but it serves as a way for the client to pick out the work they want printed.

So come the end of the shoot I say I'll have the DVD slideshow ready for (sometime recent, the next day for example if its not busy). I say they can select the prints they want from the slideshow (oh by the way; number each file or identify it someway if not sit and view the show with the client) and explain that, for free, I can retouch the selected prints. If they see examples of my work, or another photographer's work, or send me a link to the style of photograph they envision..then I do my best to replicate that.

This sounds better than putting a direct premium on "additional images." When you get back to them with the finished product (the prints) and they see the comparison of how well the processed shots look compared to the SOC shots..half the time they go "Oh wow... can we have a few more in (xsize) in this same style ? How much will that cost to have this in black and white, too? I really would like to see the shot from here done again using this style...it turned out so good, etc."

Bottom line: Always. Always show your best. 600 is a bit too much...I would say you want 100-200 at max otherwise its just too much to sort through..for you and the client.

The way I work I do absolutely everything in camera that I can. That's just my style and a large percent of my mark shies away from heavily manipulated work. When I say I do minor edits in DPP..I boost saturation a bit, contrast, add sharpness or crop/stamp a photo. That's all they need, and it saves SO much time (time is cash)

[asysin2leads]

I do mostly what Karl does. I give the images a rating. I scrap the ones that suck. I'll pick out about 10% and edit those. I starting doing a before/after image so they can see what type of edits were done. So far, I've had positive feedback on this. I will then post the gallery online for them to view. I will also offer them the option to view in person. I will post multiple images of the same pose if need be. I don't charge to edit the images. I just figure that into the price of the print. However, if there is a major edit, like adding or removing people or getting rid of braces, I will usually farm this out to someone else and charge accordingly. I've only had to do that once w/ braces. The kid wanted the braces in the pic and they actually looked cute w/ them. The mom was impartial, but the dad was dead-set on having them out of the picture. Go figure.

[korrektor]

This sounds interesting. So you do show people raw images. Even if its 30 keepers? Because what i do is i tell them gow many photos they will get per look before the shoot. I also pick the imagrs for them...

Also retouching is something i diffirrntiate myself from others. It is a large part of why people call me. Apart from angles, lighting and everything else, i make them look... So to say... Enhanced. Showing them raw images will take away from the "magic trick"
or... Am i wrong? Think... David LaChapelle without photoshop. (i really dont mean to draw any parralells with my work, however)

Karl, you offer them to see for themselves the difference between a retouched image and a raw one. What if they don t want any of them "done"? And when they take home the raws they will show them off to someone who had theirs retouched and will not be "wowed" by the result they paid for.



So from what i understand - the happy medium is DPP editing.

[Mark1]

Since I retouch the photos, retouching changes the appearance from very little to very significant difference. This is why I can't have a proofing site. It will compromise the artistic integrity.


Id love to have this explained.

[Mark1]

This sounds interesting. So you do show people raw images. Even if its 30 keepers? Because what i do is i tell them gow many photos they will get per look before the shoot.

I would not do this. What if you simply cant get enough good shots of one of the looks. You have put your self in the position of delivering subpar images.

Also retouching is something i diffirrntiate myself from others. It is a large part of why people call me. Apart from angles, lighting and everything else, i make them look... So to say... Enhanced. Showing them raw images will take away from the "magic trick"
or... Am i wrong? Think... David LaChapelle without photoshop. (i really dont mean to draw any parralells with my work, however)

If you really do heavy PP. It is kinda pointless to show them the raws isnt it. If you are going to do that you might as well just show them from the back of the camera. What if they fall in love with it as it is, then you go and do your thing to it, they may not like the change. But if they had not seen the raw, everything might be fine.

[hawkeye60]

Just curious...Is taking over 600 photos from a portrait session considered normal ?

[elisesanchez]

600 sure does seem like a lot. How long are your photo sessions? I would never show a raw.

[korrektor]

I saw your work. very enjoyable! There's post processing involved. and sometimes a lot of it. This is why I don't want to show RAW either.

600 sure does seem like a lot. How long are your photo sessions? I would never show a raw.

[korrektor]

Just curious...Is taking over 600 photos from a portrait session considered normal ?


it is normal for some. I take 400. My sessions last at least 2 hours including makeup.
I actually don't have a time cap on my shoots. I hate to rush. I concentrate on the subject and create. Money is money but I strive for delivering quality. I am not good enough yet to deliver high quality in a short multiple location shoot.

On the other hand headshot sessions are 40 min at the most.

[korrektor]

Id love to have this explained.

I don't change the appearance of the subject to the point where it stops being "them".

My level of retouching is close to the "Playboy" level of intrusion.

Sometimes it is nip/tuck. Sometimes its the skin, sometimes its the teeth... you never know. I retouch everything individually and over the years working in concept art industry I learned how to work with Photoshop without wasting much time. I take a subject and I try to approach "perfection" as much as I can.
"It's the same you - but better", my wife/MUA/accountant jokes. :)
Once again, it all depends on a model.

If you look in my posts - you will see a posted pic of a male fitness model.
The guy shaved his body a day before the shoot, but the razor caused some really nasty rashes and burns. It looked scary. On top of that the guy has asked me to airbrush his abs to make them more prominent. I did. He paid good money. He ended up looking great.
The end result is very different from the raw image. I couldn't send RAW's to him even for proofing. I told him that he would get 10 different images and he got 15 ( I was rather nice that day :))
Everyone was happy.

After talking to Phamster (you all know who he is do ya? :)
over the phone today I have reached a compromise. First of all I think it is fare to discuss everything upfront with the client. If they are ok with getting 5 great looking photos instead of 30 mediocre ones, that's great.

Some kind of a proofing gallery will probably be needed. But it has to be a pretty small one. Like 10 images per look with 1-3 print worthy ones.
It all depends on a client. Sometimes I even give my client only 2-3 photos. But - they print it in large format (100 bucks a print) and hang them as a work of art on their wall... I'm just trying to describe the folks I work with.
My goal is to produce personalized works of art. Senor portraits are great too, and I would do a sesion in a heart beat only if it pays.

Currently I haven't reached my goals regarding the skill level needed for what I am trying to provide. Yet. So for now finding a happy medium between two business strategies is paramount.

In the end I still tend to believe that showing "stetches" is... takign something away from the magic of this wonderful craft.

[Karl Johnston]

This sounds interesting. So you do show people raw images. Even if its 30 keepers? Because what i do is i tell them gow many photos they will get per look before the shoot. I also pick the images for them...

Karl, you offer them to see for themselves the difference between a retouched image and a raw one. What if they don t want any of them "done"? And when they take home the raws they will show them off to someone who had theirs retouched and will not be "wowed" by the result they paid for.

So from what i understand - the happy medium is DPP editing.

DPP, aperture, bridge or whatever your poison ;) I find DPP the fastest.

When I go through and rate the images, I make 1 round to decide which shots are keepers. The ones I don't mark I delete.

After that, I go through a second time and do minor adjustments (brightness, contrast, curves, sharpness, etc.) using the tool editor. Right click on the image and click copy recipe to clipboard.

I then go through images of the same setting and ctrl+click or shift+click the ones I think need the same adjustments.. then right click on the batch and press past recipe on selected.

Boom, then 15 images have the same processing styles that I used on the first one. Of course you can't do this to a set of 200 because the lighting changes (sometimes, depending on what you do) but its great for mass processing similar lit photos.

Sometimes I cull for a second time or even a third. I try to do only at a max of 5 of the same shots in the same theme or pose so any extras that are just too similar then I unmark those and keep the best of the 5.

From a Diamond Package session that I had, recently, we took 250 images in total. After the culling process and the editing and then the second culling process I have about 137 left. I batch processed this 137 images and saved as high res jpegs (in this case, a high res. CD was selected for an additional fee).

Now from those 137 High res jpegs I'll be making the slideshow and the CD. I don't believe in giving out raw files ("digital negatives") because once you give them to someone then they may not have the software to do anything with them nor the idea of how to work the software or make prints from them. 137 is enough for the client to look at on its own. Any more than 3 of the same looking shots or the same look and its just stupid. 10 shots of the same look, the same pose and the same light is redundant.

I let them pick the images they want printed and then if they don't want anything done to them then you just go with that and don't do any processing; print from what the adjusted raws look like.

With my style this works because I don't do heavy adjustments in the first place and I do the majority of the "editing" through the cam

[RDKirk]

I shoot both personal and commercial portraits.

For commercial portraits (business, headshots), the final product is a CD. By the contract, for a given price and usage license, the client gets five moderately retouched images. Usually, the client selects the images from my laptop at the end of the session.

For personal portraits, the final product will be a wall portrait (a framed 16x20 is my minimum package). The client can select higher-priced packages (larger framed portraits, canvas, et cetera) and add gift prints to the packages a la carte.

I don't shoot more than 100-150 images in an hour-long session. I'm perhaps twice as loose as I was with film (I'd shoot three rolls of 220 with a Mamiya RZ67). I pose fairly carefully and take a picture when I see a picture. I take a few variations of each pose, but I don't snap the shutter until I see the picture.

I'll select one or two shots from each major pose, with four or five major poses in a session. So I won't show but 10-12 previews to the client; they will all be 80% fully retouched when I show them. Some of them may be composites of the best body parts from more than one image.