Beauty Dish for Tabletop

[Jannie]

From another thread while I was looking for something else, it was suggested I try a BD for food photography. I'd not thought of that so I did and here's the results using a 17" white Elinchrom with the silver reflector installed but not using the diffusion cloth. The top one has had nothing done to it in post processing in LR. This is sweet. Following Robert's suggestion I called my dealer to see also about getting the 10 1/4" 50degree reflector but they didn't have it in stock. I may add that as well to my tabletop kit but I'm sold on the BD for this type of work adding it to my Octaboxes I feel I'm really well covered. For fill on both shots, I'm using a 69" octabox.

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb200/palousegirl/BDOnionsPhotobucketBest-2.jpg

And here's a shot taken using the BD with the diffusion cloth. This one I did bump the clarity and sharpness a tiny bit.

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb200/palousegirl/BDw-Diffusion_.jpg

[MR do little]

Hi Jannie!

Its always great to find out ways for tools you have in your closet isnt it ?

I havent used my BD for any food shots yet, but i have a few in mind that i will try soon.

Just personal observation though, i would love to see a more contrasty light for this type of scene subject, to bring out the "crispness" and charachter of the onions (in lack of better words)

A grid would help, to make it more directional and contrasty, or using a diffrent modifier.

Eitherway enjoy your BD.

[Jannie]

Yeah Paul, I'm playing with this and that and why I'd be interested in getting the 10 1/4" parabolic reflector to get the punchiness. It also has a grid available for it but to be honest I use grids seldom, only because I haven't thought of it. I'd thought of adding some contrast in LR but wanted to leave it alone for the example.

The setup is still there so I think I'll put on a 7" reflector with a grid just for the fun of it and see what I can get. Good suggestion Paul.

Well it has more contrast in that the light was more localized and I did pull it way back but it doesn't look crisp, granted I haven't sharpened or done anything to it and I will and then I'll put on the 135L and see how it does. Never questioned this lens before and have done plenty of tests with it, these are all shot at f 16.

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb200/palousegirl/BDw-Grid.jpg

[MR do little]

I understand. Yes the 26cm is nice , just be prepared to shoot @ F/22+ lol :-) it will really focus the light.

BTW i really like the the Deep octa for food shots, shot a whole series of food closeups for a company using it as my key.

Kindest

[MR do little]

I like the first "edit" best, the light im "looking" for is quite harsh window light coming thru a small window, onions lying on a old wodden table in a old shed.. you get the picture. :-)

Kindest

[Jannie]

Yeah the Deep Octa is a very special modifier, I like to play with light a lot, thus the reason for trying so many different things.

It's neat there's someone else out there that likes contrast, I see so much that appears to be shot under a light tent now and if I go to the stock food websites, after a while they all start looking like each other, not bad, much of it is very nice but I think they might have enough of that style all ready huh.

I really like the Deep Octa for product shots, with and without diffusion but more often without, it's just an amazing light. I haven't done that much product stuff with it but enough to know it's all by it'self that way.

[Jannie]

It doesn't seem to make much difference which lens I use, but it did make a little difference to not manual focus as I usually do and switch it to auto focus, at f16 even an eighth of an inch makes a difference.

Paul I know you use a Nikon with Zeiss lensed but do you use extension tubes or a macro for food shooting. I've borrowed a 180Macro several times and it looks exactly the same as my other lenses, especially stopped down. In outdoor backlight situations it does seem to pop a bit more with a nice edge to it.. The thing is I really love shooting wide and close or I should say I like shooting table top/food stuff all over the place with lenses and the macro's just limit that too much.

[TMR Design]

I definitely think you're going to get the best shots without diffusion and by creating the contrast through lighting and not software. If you're not capturing microcontrast then Lightroom or any other RAW editor can't give you microcontrast. This is what separates the ladies from the girls (intended for Jannie, :D ).

I like the look that Paul is describing and the 7" reflector with a grid may be a very good solution. I think you'd love the 10 1/4" reflector with the grid as well but in general, high contrast directional lighting is what I believe you're after for this type of work.

[MR do little]

Yeah the Deep Octa is a very special modifier, I like to play with light a lot, thus the reason for trying so many different things.

It's neat there's someone else out there that likes contrast, I see so much that appears to be shot under a light tent now and if I go to the stock food websites, after a while they all start looking like each other, not bad, much of it is very nice but I think they might have enough of that style all ready huh.

I really like the Deep Octa for product shots, with and without diffusion but more often without, it's just an amazing light. I haven't done that much product stuff with it but enough to know it's all by it'self that way.

Yes, and im for one is guilty of those comercial clean looking snaps on white backgrounds, not the most fun things to shoot thats for sure. :o But what the client wants, the client gets..;)



I used it with both, but just as you mostly with just the inner baffel.

Here (http://www.lindqvist-photography.com/showcase/bp_zf100_5.jpg) i think you can see what i used in the reflection.;)


It doesn't seem to make much difference which lens I use, but it did make a little difference to not manual focus as I usually do and switch it to auto focus, at f16 even an eighth of an inch makes a difference.

Paul I know you use a Nikon with Zeiss lensed but do you use extension tubes or a macro for food shooting. I've borrowed a 180Macro several times and it looks exactly the same as my other lenses, especially stopped down. In outdoor backlight situations it does seem to pop a bit more with a nice edge to it.. The thing is I really love shooting wide and close or I should say I like shooting table top/food stuff all over the place with lenses and the macro's just limit that too much.

Unless i shoot with dedicated macro lenses i avoid going beyond F/9 due to diffraction, if depth of field distribution is a high priority renting a T/S is the best solution imo.

But even with macro lenses i often do not exceed F/9, my most used lenses for food and product is my Zeiss planars 100/2 and 50/2, but also my 35/2 Zeiss get used when i want a wider perspectiv.And latley the Zeiss 135/1,8 wich is a joy to use as well.

Two examples, on choice of lenses. 100/2 for the closeup where i wanted to isolate a part of the asparagus, 35/2 to get a wider perspective wich in this case also distort the asparagus, due to the short distance.(wich was my intention)

Zeiss 100/2
http://www.lindqvist-photography.com/showcase/sparris_zf100.jpg
Zeiss 35/2
http://www.lindqvist-photography.com/showcase/sparris_zf35.jpg



Kindest

[Jannie]

I'll try not stopping down so far, I'm not about to buy a TS lens although I know well the benefits of what it'll do, I used to shoot a lot with a 4x5 view camera when I was first starting in photography.

Also I agree with the contrast idea, my whole life shooting commercials I used fresnel lights which give you control, control, control and then created soft diffusion by using large silks etc., and then I did have my little basher scoop light but tended to get a lot of contrast out of that as well.

Last year when I bought my first strobes, I really didn't know what to expect without fresnels and yesterday I found myself pining for even just one. They aren't the answer to everything but sure were a necessity in my past work.

Liquids of any type of course with food really help it pop. I tried that a couple of days ago and it's fun.

From the same lens a couple of days ago, shot with a 580EXII in a Kaiser umbrella softbox as key.

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb200/palousegirl/AAA1.jpg

And this with the Deep 39" with both diffusers as the key.

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb200/palousegirl/AAA2.jpg

And this also with the Deep 39" with both diffusers as the key and the 69" octa as the fill plus an additional white card.

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb200/palousegirl/AAA3.jpg

[Jannie]

This is interesting and something I've not noticed before but none of what I've showed you here in this thread looks very sharp and actually Paul's look about the same. Granted I'm looking at them on a 17" iMac but I went back and looked at mine in LR and they are very sharp. I'm exporting mine from Lightroom to Photobucket at:

1025 on the longest edge
Quality 100
300 pixels per inch
JPEG
RGB (Adobe 1998)

Is this my problem?

[TMR Design]

This is interesting and something I've not noticed before but none of what I've showed you here in this thread looks very sharp and actually Paul's look about the same. Granted I'm looking at them on a 17" iMac but I went back and looked at mine in LR and they are very sharp. I'm exporting mine from Lightroom to Photobucket at:

1025 on the longest edge
Quality 100
300 pixels per inch
JPEG
RGB (Adobe 1998)

Is this my problem?

I once looked at Photobucket and rejected it right away. I didn't like what it was doing to the images. Loss of clarity, contrast and sharpness. I either use my own domain or Zenfolio to host my images and I've been very happy with the way it preserves those details and sharpness. I really dislike Photobucket.

[Jannie]

I also understand the need to shoot on a white background, I have several friends who are commercial artists and ask for white backgrounds to facilitate lifting the image into a print add more easily in Photoshop.

It kills a lot of the color and punch in a lot of table top photos to shoot on white or against a white background but those are the needs of that particular client. I recently shot a product for a friend who manufactures some sporting gear and he came back with "the layout guy wants it against white". I did it but it was semi-transparent and looked way better with the black background I'd originally shot. But by the time it was on the packaging, it really didn't matter, the subtleties were all lost but the packaging looked great.

[drh681]

if you are re-sizing for eexport, then you might want to add a little bit of snmart sharpen.
I made an action just for re-sizing web images, to 6x4 at 100ppi and then smart sharpen by a few pixels. if you go this way, you may want to make anther action to do verticals.
oh yeah the 'beaty dish make good sense for food, you want it to be beatutiful too. :)

[Jannie]

I just signed up for Zenfolio and am downloading a bunch of food shots right now.

Curious what is snmart sharpen or is that a typo? And drh681 does your signature location mean you live next to the El Camino Real (I used to live a rock throwing distance from it while going to Brooks Institute of Photography in Santa Barbara, many decades ago).

Just tried the same setup with the Deep 39 Octa with middle diffuser and it looks pretty great too. Will try next with no diffusers but just the reflector in the middle to see if I can get more punch but it looks really good with the middle diffuser. That is the most amazingly versatile light. But the Beauty dish without the diffuser does look great, will try it as well on food other than the onions.

[Cathpah]

I just signed up for Zenfolio and am downloading a bunch of food shots right now.

Curious what is snmart sharpen or is that a typo? And drh681 does your signature location mean you live next to the El Camino Real (I used to live a rock throwing distance from it while going to Brooks Institute of Photography in Santa Barbara, many decades ago).

Just tried the same setup with the Deep 39 Octa with middle diffuser and it looks pretty great too. Will try next with no diffusers but just the reflector in the middle to see if I can get more punch but it looks really good with the middle diffuser. That is the most amazingly versatile light. But the Beauty dish without the diffuser does look great, will try it as well on food other than the onions.

I believe he was referring to SMART sharpen.

[Jannie]

Well I downloaded into Zenfolio a bunch of photos but can't figure out how to get them here lol, always something. Robert to they have a printed book I can buy to learn it?

[TMR Design]

Well I downloaded into Zenfolio a bunch of photos but can't figure out how to get them here lol, always something. Robert to they have a printed book I can buy to learn it?

Hi Jannie,

There is no book or printed docs. I believe there are some FAQ's and their support is excellent.

In a nutshell, if you have an image uploaded to a gallery and you want to link to it from POTN, you do the following.

Make sure you're logged in to your Zenfolio account. Go to the Gallery and the image you want to use. With your mouse anywhere on the image, right click and you'll see a small set of menus appear. The second option down is "Show Link To Photo". Select that menu. A window will open on the right side of the screen and about 1/2 way down you'll see a section titled "Direct Links To Images". They are listed in size order from thumbnail to large image. Click over the link of one of the image sizes. When you click the link it will be highlighted. Since you have a Mac just command-C to copy the link.
Then you can click the Close button in that window to stop displaying the links.

Come back to POTN, select the 'Insert Image' icon when creating a post, paste (command-V) the link into the field for the URL, click OK and Voila!.

[MR do little]

Hi Jannie!

None of my images are sharpened othern then in the resizing process (bicubic sharper best for reduction), also all my images for web is srgb. I dont sharpen other then for print/press. What i cant stand is oversharpened images and halo effects, nor am i a big fan of localsharpening to eyes etc but thats just me. :-)


I really like the tomato shot, water really adds to it.

Similar setup for this shot, singel SB-800 with a 91x122cm softbox.

http://www.lindqvist-photography.com/showcase/berries_zf100_1.jpg

[Jannie]

Well I did a bit of testing last night with lenses and did notice a sharpness improvement by shooting at f 9 instead of f 16 with both my 85L and 24-70L, I will do some tests as well at f 11. I have tested this before and generally felt f 16 was good and it still seems to be on images that have som edge or hardness to them but the difference really came out in the onion shots. I do think though it also is that difference in lighting and will shoot some tests at some point with speedlights again ( small fresnel-sort of). Also adding water to the image really makes it snap but that is not always desireable. It's a subjective call.

[drh681]

In photoshop there is under the filter menu, under the Sharpen sub-menu a a selection for Smart Sharpen it is right above "Unsharp Mask".
the advance dialog will let you apply sharpening to the highlights and shadows seperately ( reduces making shadow noise more obvious )
it also has a selector to remove "lens blur"( not sure what that means, I haven't got around to looking it up ) "Gauss blur" which is what you need for downsizing and "motion blur" ( which is a cool Idea but does not seem to execute as weel as one might hope :) )

El Camino Real is a few miles away at the San Gabriel Mission, I am about two miles south of Route 66 though.

[TMR Design]

In photoshop there is under the filter menu, under the Sharpen sub-menu a a selection for Smart Sharpen it is right above "Unsharp Mask".
the advance dialog will let you apply sharpening to the highlights and shadows seperately ( reduces making shadow noise more obvious )
it also has a selector to remove "lens blur"( not sure what that means, I haven't got around to looking it up ) "Gauss blur" which is what you need for downsizing and "motion blur" ( which is a cool Idea but does not seem to execute as weel as one might hope :) )

El Camino Real is a few miles away at the San Gabriel Mission, I am about two miles south of Route 66 though.

It should be noted that Smart Sharpen didn't appear until CS2 so if people are still using CS they don't have that option.

[abdul10000]

Following Robert's suggestion I called my dealer to see also about getting the 10 1/4" 50degree reflector but they didn't have it in stock. I may add that as well to my tabletop kit but I'm sold on the BD for this type of work adding it to my Octaboxes I feel I'm really well covered.



Jannie

is this the reflector you are referring to?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/16864-REG/Elinchrom_EL_26137_10_1_4_High_Performance_Reflect or.html

What is the advantage of using that particular reflector for food photography? Since the 8.25" reflectors has the same spread angle is it comparable to the 10.25?

Thanks

[Jannie]

First thanks for clarifying smart sharpen but I don't use photoshop, using just Lightroom instead.

Secondly yes that's the reflector we are talking about is a deep parabolic which causes it to throw the light in a more directional way, throwing it long distances when needed. They're usually lights that can be aimed more precisely and hopefully you can get edgier shadows when using one and then adjust the shadow level with a second fill light. Still trying to decide if I want to spend the money. Seems with photography, every direction you take with it costs a lot of money. When I was shooting motion, we rented all the gear to fit each job, all I owned once I stopped shooting 16mm documentaries was a case full of meters and another full of filters.

[TMR Design]

That is the reflector. A reflector or any modifier is about much more than its angle of coverage. The high performance reflector is a parabolic shape and as you can see it's quite deep. This creates very directional focused light and it's not as scattered and diffused as with standard reflectors. As a result you get high contrast and very crisp images.

This is similar to the way the Deep Octa works and that is what distinguishes the Deep Octa from a standard Octa.

[abdul10000]

Secondly yes that's the reflector we are talking about is a deep parabolic which causes it to throw the light in a more directional way, throwing it long distances when needed. They're usually lights that can be aimed more precisely and hopefully you can get edgier shadows when using one and then adjust the shadow level with a second fill light.

That's what I understood, only I was surprised that people were using it for food photography.


That is the reflector. A reflector or any modifier is about much more than its angle of coverage. The high performance reflector is a parabolic shape and as you can see it's quite deep. This creates very directional focused light and it's not as scattered and diffused as with standard reflectors. As a result you get high contrast and very crisp images.

This is similar to the way the Deep Octa works and that is what distinguishes the Deep Octa from a standard Octa.

thanks for the extra feedback, I guess I need to try this reflector one day before ordering it.

[TMR Design]

That's what I understood, only I was surprised that people were using it for food photography.

Why?

[abdul10000]

Why?

isn't the reflector very efficient? One stop more efficient than the 8.25?

The 8.25 reflector outfitted to the 600RX lowest power setting provides I think f16 and above at 3ft. The 10.25 reflector will be reaching f22 and above! Must use gels?

[TMR Design]

isn't the reflector very efficient? One stop more efficient than the 8.25?

The 8.25 reflector outfitted to the 600RX lowest power setting provides I think f16 and above at 3ft. The 10.25 reflector will be reaching f22 and above! Must use gels?

If ND gels are needed then you use them. If you prefer ND filters on the lens then use them. The approach (or at least my approach) is always going to be that you choose the modifier for the quality of light you want. Once you have that in place then you control the light as needed.

BUT, this also goes back to discussions we've had here many times on POTN and a topic that Hermes always chimes in on as well, and that is to have strobes of the right power level. Obviously, if you have a 600RX then the power can only go down to 18 Ws, but if you have a 300RX that goes down to 9 Ws. Of course not everyone has the luxury of having strobes or different power levels but ideally that is what you should have. The same goes for working in studios with huge sets or working outside and having to combat the sun. Rather than trying to do that with a 600RX you're better off with a 1200RX and the extra stop of light.

[Jannie]

Interesting, that's a lot of power out of that reflector considering I am using a
BX400 which I don't think goes as low as the ones you mentioned. Not excited about using neutral density fells on camera or lights, my impression has been that they give a similar affect as stopping down the lens too far, similar to what I see from my polarizer.

This however is not what I've experienced when using ND fells on my speedlights, probably because the light is inherantly so crisp.

[MR do little]

Actually for "table top " food photography the highperformance reflector wouldnt be my first choice, it would be a 21 standard reflector with a grid, i would however use the highperformance reflector for mimic sunlight thru a window or similar (other use is to aim it against a white wall and get a large indirect light source.) on a larger scene. But for food where the "scene" rarely is larger then 1,5 meter the power and focused beam of the highperformance reflector is wasted if not just to much.

Not saying one cant or shouldnt use it, thats just how and why i would/n't use it.

Kindest

[TMR Design]

Actually for "table top " food photography the highperformance reflector wouldnt be my first choice, it would be a 21 standard reflector with a grid, i would however use the highperformance reflector for mimic sunlight thru a window or similar (other use is to aim it against a white wall and get a large indirect light source.) on a larger scene. But for food where the "scene" rarely is larger then 1,5 meter the power and focused beam of the highperformance reflector is wasted if not just to much.

Not saying one cant or shouldnt use it, thats just how and why i would/n't use it.

Kindest

I agree Paul. I don't think it would be my first choice, but in an attempt to help Jannie in her quest for alternative directional, high contrast light sources, it seemed like a reasonable suggestion. :D

[MR do little]

And it is indeed!, as long she has the space. .-)

Kindest

[Jannie]

My space is too small for the high performance reflector, by 21 are you referring to a 21cm reflector, I've got the 7" with a set of grids and have been using it a fair amount this week. I've been busy; just put everything away and cleaning up my apartment, getting a private chef's lesson tomorrow and I'm excited.

In the process of shooting veggies this week I can say I used probably equally, 69" Octa, 53" Octa, 39" Deep Octa, 17" BD with and W/O diffusion sock, 7" reflector with and w/o different grids, speedlight raw, or in Kaiser umbrella softbox, or with Lumiques 80-20. There was no unit that in the end I would say was "it", in that like other kinds off shooting situations, different tools for different shots; overall I'm quite pleased with my kit to handle everything I've needed so far. The only thing I didn't try was to hang the 69" Octa from the boom overhead but will when the need arises.

I really do love Elinchrom products, I have yet to have anything I think isn't anything but good about the way they are made, the way the work and more than anything I really love the light they put out, whether open or with the Octaboxes or BD. I'm really happy with my choices.

One thing that did really stand out was that in the beginning I was using mostly the 24-70 with a few shots also up around 180mm. I was mostly shooting at f16 but decided to try Paul's method of f9 (pick a number Jannie LOL) and stuck with it for two days to see how I would adapt to that amount of depth of field.

Well at the same time I got really addicted to using the 85L with extension tubes and the combination is very sweet. Granted my subjects ran from 3" to 10" in width so this worked out well. I've hardly ever used that lens for table top but quite like the perspective. Shooting at f9 with both the 24070 and 85 did show an improvement in what appears to be sharpness, overall I'm loving the images.

[tetrode]

Here's some examples and a tryout now that I'm using Zenfolio:

This was shot with the 85L f9 ISO 100 with the 69" Octabox and a fill card.
http://www.zenfolio.com/zf/img/null.gif

This is with the 17" BD:
http://www.zenfolio.com/zf/img/null.gif

This also was with the 17" BD:
http://www.zenfolio.com/zf/img/null.gif

EIther those are the wrong links, Jannie, or your photos are about 13 stops overexposed ;)

Dave F.

[Jannie]

The links work for me now, please check them, still trying to figure out how to make the actual images show here, maybe it's a mac thing.

[TMR Design]

The links are working and your Zenfolio gallery is looking very nice. You can embed the images in posts as well by placing the link in between the and tags.

[Jannie]

Thanks Robert, you're instructions finally got me there, the ones from Zenfolio help got me the links. The images have very little PP, maybe a tiny bit of sharpness which they really didn't need. The top one only looks fair here on POTN in my monitor and the actual image is very sharp. But I like Zenfolio already and hope to learn more to develop a place where I can offer a link, web link etc. and put together several galleries.

Thanks:-)

[Jannie]

Back to the discussion of reflectors, how different is the 8" Elinchrom compared to the 7". I have the 7" with a set of three grids and unless there's something quite different to the 8", I can't imagine for what I'm doing that I'd notice a difference.

[Jannie]

The more I think about this, the more the High Performance reflector appeals to me. Yes it's a matter of getting it back far enough and it's also something that might only get used occasionally but still interesting. I'm remembering a shot in a commercial I did many years ago of a 50 lb. opened bag of coffee beans as the primary subject. I'd taken a 10,000w fresnel set back across the studio to get that sunlight source look of light and the outcome was quite simple but thrilling. Often I make a concerted effort to do give images the single source lighting look whether from a very edgy to very soft beginning. It doesn't mean I don't use many lights, I just don't want the viewer to be able to have them as a distraction, anything that looks good is valid.