Action shots...HELP!!!

[Rockrz]

OK, so this isn't actually "sports" but it's pretty close...I'm trying to get some
action shots of the grand baby (almost 3 years old) as she plays in the backyard.

I know when I want to shoot...but it seems my camera is about a second
or so behind.

I'm able to push down slightly so auto focus kicks in, and then push down
all the way and by the time I do all that the little tyke isn't making that
cute smile she was a few seconds before that would have made a good shot.

I'm basically using the default factory camera settings. Is this where I'm
going wrong and I need to change a bunch of settings? If so, which ones?

Any ideas that would help a beginner like myself?
(See signature below for type of camera being used)

[The Moose]

I'm afraid that's shutter lag and there's nothing you can do about it with the SX1IS.

[Rockrz]

But, all other cameras can have the shutter sped up?
The SX1IS should only have shutter lag down to a quarter of a second

Don't SLRS have auto-focus? If so, how can they possible focus
and catch the shot at the exact same time?

Do SLRS have instant auto-focus & capture?
If so, I guess I need to find which one can do that and buy it.

[snyderman]

But, all other cameras can have the shutter sped up?

Don't SLRS have auto-focus? If so, how can they possible focus and catch
the shot at the exact same time?

Like The Moose stated, what you're experiencing is shutter lag. Here's another real life example involving shooting basketball.

Focus on player. Player goes up for the jump shot. You press the shutter when it looks like the ball is just about to release from the player's hand. The picture you GET is one with a completed shooting motion and NO BALL in the frame. It's already gone.

What I recommend for you to get those playful shots of your subject is to assign the auto focus to the * button on the back of your camera, set the focus to AI Servo, set frames to multiple (can't remember the exact term, but not single shot) and start shooting BEFORE the action begins and shoot bursts of 3-4 frames. Remember to keep the AF (*) button pushed while shooting so the focus continues while your subject moves.

Sounds like the basketball recipe I use would work for your subject. Try it out and good luck!

dave

[dmwierz]

But, all other cameras can have the shutter sped up?
The SX1IS should only have shutter lag down to a quarter of a second

Don't SLRS have auto-focus? If so, how can they possible focus
and catch the shot at the exact same time?

Do SLRS have instant auto-focus & capture?
If so, I guess I need to find which one can do that and buy it.

Define "instant". The MkIIn's shutter lag is 0.04s and I believe the lag for the SX1IS is comparable (I've read it's around 0.02s). However, there's a LOT more that goes into camera response time than simply shutter lag. It's typical that camera response time is called "shutter lag" but this isn't really accurate (and in my opinion, more than a little misleading).

The shutter lag is actually how long it takes the shutter to respond to an "input" to trigger. In reality, the camera itself may delay this input by a substantial amount of time from when you depress the shutter button, while it deals with a lot of other calculations.

The ability to get a properly-exposed image while auto-focusing, shooting 5-10 frames per second and getting shutter speeds (not shutter lag) up to 1/8000s all with minimal shutter lag are some of the things that make pro-level DSLR's cost many, many times as much as the SX1IS. The mechanical and electrical sophistication that goes into producing a machine like this is phenomenal (and expensive). The processing power of a modern DSLR is substantial, and again, not cheap.

Your camera is not meant to be a pro-level sports camera. It does many things well, but "instant" camera response is not one of them.

Actually, from what I've read, it's not the shutter lag that drives the long response of the SX1IS - it's primarily the time it takes for AF and secondly the time it takes to perform the myriad other "auto" calculations that you might have enabled, and only then does shutter lag figure into the overall camera response time.

Here's a description of the things that go into how long it takes a camera to respond to depressing the shutter button, and an older table showing some times for popular cameras.

http://www.impulseadventure.com/photo/shutter-lag.html

And a newer list of cameras and their response times:

http://www.cameras.co.uk/html/shutter-lag-comparisons.cfm

And here's an interesting way to test your camera response time (again, incorrectly called shutter lag)

http://www.shooting-digital.com/columns/schwartz/shutter_release_test/default.asp

Something else that bears noting is that your own response time is typically a factor here. Most people take at least 0.10-0.30s (http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/stats.php) to react when their brain issues a command. If you do the test at the Web site above, you will be including your own response time into the number you get.

You might want to turn off some of the bells and whistles that may be bogging down your camera, taking up processing bandwidth, like face detection and IS (if you keep your shutter speeds >1/500s you won't need IS anyway) and shoot in manual mode, as this will also relieve the processor of the burden of performing exposure calculations. Also try shooting without flash (if you had it on).

When shooting sports, timing is one of the many things you have to learn, and it's not just the timing of the action. For example, when I use my MkIIn, I get very used to "calibrating" for the camera's response and can anticipate the action by triggering the shutter slightly early. If I switch to my back-up and much older 20D, I find I have to "re-calibrate" my timing.

Hope this helps.

[S.Ransom]

I will try to explain this as easily as I can.

Due to the slow auto focus and shutter lag of your camera I would try taking the photo by getting fairly close to your Grand Baby and use the zoom at wide angle.

Because your camera has a small image sensor, when you use wide angle zoom you do not need to worry about focusing because everything will fall into the depth of field.

This way you only need to worry about the shutter lag so you will get more chances to try and predict when you think the photo should be taken.

If your camera can do burst shooting then use that because it does not matter how many photo's you take because one perfect photo is worth it in the end.

I hope this helps.

Regard's,

[Rockrz]

What I recommend for you to get those playful shots of your subject is to assign the auto focus to the * button on the back of your camera, set the focus to AI Servo, set frames to multiple (can't remember the exact term, but not single shot) and start shooting BEFORE the action begins and shoot bursts of 3-4 frames. Remember to keep the AF (*) button pushed while shooting so the focus continues while your subject moves
You might want to turn off some of the bells and whistles that may be bogging down your camera, taking up processing bandwidth, like face detection and IS (if you keep your shutter speeds >1/500s you won't need IS anyway) and shoot in manual mode, as this will also relieve the processor of the burden of performing exposure calculations. Also try shooting without flash (if you had it on)
If your camera can do burst shooting then use that because it does not matter how many photo's you take because one perfect photo is worth it in the end.

OK, thanks for all this info...I'll study my User Manual and see if I can get it to do "burst shooting" and see how that works out.
I've been able to get a few really good shots but it's irritating to see moments that should be captured and I try but the camera is a little late. As long as things are reasonably still, it's been taking great pictures

[dmwierz]

Because your camera has a small image sensor, when you use wide angle zoom you do not need to worry about focusing because everything will fall into the depth of field.

If your camera can do burst shooting then use that because it does not matter how many photo's you take because one perfect photo is worth it in the end.


I believe you've gotten these things backwards, or maybe I've misunderstood what you were trying to say - The depth of field is a function of several things, and sensor size is only a factor as it relates to effective focal length. The smaller sensor in many pro-sumer compact cameras actually decreases the depth of field since it increases the effective focal length.

In addition, getting closer to the subject will also decrease the depth of field (at a given aperture).

So, shooting a smaller sensor camera at closer range will DECREASE your depth of field and make it more challenging to get in focus shots.

Of most importance to the OP is the aperture chosen (either by him or by the camera) and the distance to the subject. The smaller the aperture (the larger numbers) the greater the depth of field. The farther the distance (with a given aperture and constant focal length), the greater the depth of field.

One of the reasons why consumer cameras have relatively small aperture lenses is because these yield larger depths of field, which make it easier for inexperienced shooters to get their subjects in focus and also gives the camera manufacturers the chance to skimp on AF circuitry therefore making their cameras less expensive (the other reason is that larger aperture lenses are much more costly to produce).

http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

Also, shooting in burst mode may actually produce LESS shots in focus, especially if the subject is moving towards or away from you at a rapid rate. Shooting at the highest frames-per-second mode of your camera will put added strain on its ability to auto-focus. I'd suggest just the opposite - shoot single shot and learn to anticipate the firing of the shutter. The more you shoot, the better you'll become.

If you want to genuinely improve your action shots, don't "Spray and Pray" which is what it's called to just hammer the shutter and hope the camera figures out the rest.

Learn to work with your camera and use it the way it was designed to be used.

The S1XIS is a very capable camera, but it's also a fairly complex piece of electronics. Read your manual and practice, practice, practice. You'll get some really great shots of your grandchild that you will cherish forever.

[Rockrz]

I'd suggest just the opposite - shoot single shot and learn to anticipate the firing of the shutter....Learn to work with your camera and use it the way it was designed to be used....Read your manual and practice, practice, practice

Yep, it's come to that...I gotta break down and study the manual :lol:

And, I guess I shouldn't complain too much because I have obtained
some really good pictures doing single shots.

I was just trying to increase my efficiency because I've seen quite a few
images with my eyes that would have been great shots but I couldn't
seem to capture most of these with the camera.

I think practicing is the key along with studying the manual so I can
experiment with different settings, enabling me to maximize the
abilities of the equipment.

[S.Ransom]

I believe you've gotten these things backwards, or maybe I've misunderstood what you were trying to say - The depth of field is a function of several things, and sensor size is only a factor as it relates to effective focal length. The smaller sensor in many pro-sumer compact cameras actually decreases the depth of field since it increases the effective focal length.

In addition, getting closer to the subject will also decrease the depth of field (at a given aperture).

So, shooting a smaller sensor camera at closer range will DECREASE your depth of field and make it more challenging to get in focus shots.

One of the reasons why consumer cameras have relatively small aperture lenses is because these yield larger depths of field, which make it easier for inexperienced shooters to get their subjects in focus and also gives the camera manufacturers the chance to skimp on AF circuitry therefore making their cameras less expensive (the other reason is that larger aperture lenses are much more costly to produce).


I think you must have misunderstood what I was trying to say.

When using any point and shoot camera including the op's camera you will always have infinite depth of field at wide angle settings regardless of focusing or not.

At wide angle just pressing the shutter fully down without focusing always produces sharp results.

I have tried this myself and it works every time and even my son when he was only three years old would take photo's of us on holiday and the photos were always sharp and he does not understand how to focus a camera.

This is why I said to the op that it would be one less thing to worry about when trying to capture the photo he is after.

Mind you it's nice that a pro sports photographer like yourself has the time to help us amateurs.

Regard's

[Rockrz]

At wide angle just pressing the shutter fully down without focusing always produces sharp results.

I have tried this myself and it works every time and even my son when he was only three years old would take photo's of us on holiday and the photos were always sharp and he does not understand how to focus a camera.

This is why I said to the op that it would be one less thing to worry about when trying to capture the photo he is after

Wow! You mean all I have to do is set my camera to "Landscape"
(that's wide angle, right?)...and it is automatically focused and will
take a nice clean image? :eek:

Your right, that would solve alot if it will eliminate the auto focus time.
It would help me to capture more shots that right moment

[dmwierz]

When using any point and shoot camera including the op's camera you will always have infinite depth of field at wide angle settings regardless of focusing or not.

Shane, while I think your intentions are good, I fear you've still missed the mark and I want to make sure Rockrz and anyone else still paying attention to this thread can understand the science behind this topic.

There is no way to get an "infinite depth of field". Ever make a "pinhole camera" in High School science class? Even this very small aperture has limits on the depth of field. If you were to stop down a modern camera to an aperture size of a pinhole, chances are you couldn't get adequate light to the sensor to make an exposure.

Let's see what the depths of field for a SX1IS would be, using the actual hardware and specs:

The lens specs on this camera are: 28-560mm zoom (the 35mm equivalent is almost identical). Aperture range f/2.8 - f/5.7 (fully open) to a minimum of f/8.0 stopped down.

Let's say you shoot the SX1IS at its widest (smallest) focal length of 28mm, on a subject 10 feet away, with the lens stopped down to f/8.0. The depth of field would be 3.16 feet, extending from 1.34 feet in front of the subject to 1.82 feet behind it. Far from infinite, I think you'd agree? See the screen capture below.

If the subject halved the distance to the camera to 5 feet (as you seemed to suggest), remaining at 28mm and f/8.0, depth of field would decrease to .77 feet, which is only a matter 9 inches or so. This would mean some parts of the subject (an outstretched hand, for example) could easily be out of focus independent of shutter speed.

If the subject were to double the distance to 20 feet, depth of field would increase to close to 14 feet.

So what's my point? Only to show that getting fairly close to your Grand Baby and use the zoom at wide angle will not result in an infinite depth of field at wide angle settings regardless of focusing or not

This just won't work, plain and simple.

Plus, by shooting fully stopped down, you may not have enough light to even take an image unless you are in bright sunshine or under VERY strong indoor lights.

Also, Rockrz, don't be so sure that any of this would solve alot if it will eliminate the auto focus time.

The only way to eliminate auto focus time is to focus manually.