Opening a can of worms - my first flash question to you guys.

[pixel_junkie]

Hi guys!

While I have a pretty good idea about using a camera overall, flash photography is very new to me. So far, I’ve relied on fast lenses for all my low light images. However at times like shooting on the beach facing the sun and having a subject facing the camera as well, I’ve realized that a shot like that just can’t happen without a flash to put some light in the subject’s face.

I’ve been reading a lot about using flash. I don’t feel like I’ve learned that much yet but I’m plugging along. So I wanted to use the answers of the following question as more or less first stepping stone on my way to concur flash photography.

Here’s the scenario – just like the example above, if I was to shoot a subject on the beach – me facing the sunset, her standing against the sunset and facing the camera such as the example bellow – if I’m shooting in AV the way I have been (I’m comfortable with that mode), how would I control the power of the flash?

http://www.emilkara.com/sunset.jpg

Obviously I want to put just a little bit of light into the subjects face, just enough so she isn’t a silhouette at the end. The sunset is the main event on the picture.

Do I set the camera as I would if I was shooting without flash and then dial in manually just enough power on the flash until I’m happy with the results?

Is it a wrong approach to set up the camera first and figure out the flash exposure later by testing different power settings?

I guess the main thing I need to understand is the sequence of setting up both camera and flash and also I imagine leaving the camera to control the flash won’t do the trick so what is the best/quickest/standard way to control the flash output – all this in aperture priority mode?

Any replies to this would be greatly appreciated!!!

[DDCSD]

First of all, do not use your flash in AV mode. AV mode is usually terrible with flash unless you really know what you're doing (and if you really know what you're doing, use M) or are using the flash only as fill. Use M when using flash in a situation like you posted above. The only time you'd want to be in AV is if you're only using the flash for fill light, which is not the case in the above photo.


Set up your camera to get the exposure that you want on the background, then adjust your flash/strobe's power to get the exposure that you want on the subject that you are illuminating with the flash.

[pixel_junkie]

First of all, do not use your flash in AV mode. AV mode is usually terrible with flash unless you really know what you're doing (and if you really know what you're doing, use M) or are using the flash only as fill. Use M when using flash in a situation like you posted above. The only time you'd want to be in AV is if you're only using the flash for fill light, which is not the case in the above photo.

Thanks Derek! How come? What does AV do to the flash that M doesn't?


Set up your camera to get the exposure that you want on the background, then adjust your flash/strobe's power to get the exposure that you want on the subject that you are illuminating with the flash.

You just fire a test shot and then adjust the EFC on the actual flash separate from the camera?

[CliveyBoy]

There is a great deal on this method at
http://www.strobist.com

It is a common approach to set the camera for the background, possibly 1-2 stops down from "normal", and then set the flash to light the subject.

[DDCSD]

Thanks Derek! How come? What does AV do to the flash that M doesn't?



AV mode will attempt to expose the ambient light. It will likely give you way to long of a shutter speed, or way too short. The shutter speed will also vary wildly depending on exactly where you point the camera.





You just fire a test shot and then adjust the EFC on the actual flash separate from the camera?

In that situation, I would put the flash on M as well. You're in a controlled situation with a very difficult scene for the camera to meter. If the model move a hair in any direction, your camera/flash could choose wildly different settings.

[pixel_junkie]

There is a great deal on this method at
http://www.strobist.com

It is a common approach to set the camera for the background, possibly 1-2 stops down from "normal", and then set the flash to light the subject.

Thanks! I'll eat that site for dinner tonight!

[pixel_junkie]

In that situation, I would put the flash on M as well. You're in a controlled situation with a very difficult scene for the camera to meter. If the model move a hair in any direction, your camera/flash could choose wildly different settings.

Sounds like I've chosen an extra difficult scene as an example. What if you're in a more controlled environment? Would shooting in manual and adjusting the FEC as a secondary step not be appropriate? I'm trying to figure out not so much how to do that shot but more what the basics are when setting up any shot. Step A - set up camera in manual for proper exposure, ... step B?

[pixel_junkie]

One more thing - if I'm in AV, there's no way to override the Flash and control its output entirely?

[drh681]

the trick with AV mode and flash is to set the custom function for shutter speed with flash to maintain 1/250 of a second.

but manual is almost a necessity for a scene such as your example.

and yes Flash Exposure Lock (FEL) is very effective for that sort of scene also.
as you surmise, it separates the flash exposure calculation from the overall scene exposure calculation.

[theveed]

One more thing - if I'm in AV, there's no way to override the Flash and control its output entirely?

You could, just switch your flash to Manual...

[bobbyz]

Like others mentioned keep camera in manual exposure mode. FLash can be in eTTL.

You select aperture based on dof you need. Select ss and ISO for bg ambient light. Then just use FEC for proper subject exposure.

If you need to darken bg, increase ss. If need to bring up bg, slower ss. At sunset you won't be limited by flash sync speed of the camera.

[pixel_junkie]

You could, just switch your flash to Manual...
That's what I though. So if this is possible and I already know how to set up the exposure in AV well, what would I gain by using manual on the camera? If I need to underexpose the shot in AV (or overexpose, .. whatever), I can do that and then go to my flash end adjust IT to light up my subject as much as I want (by doing it manually). Would I be doing more work than necessary?

Sorry guys, not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand the advantage of Manual mode for the camera and its relation to the flash.

[msowsun]

Av mode or Manual mode are used ONLY for the ambient light exposure.(background) In this case you need to underexpose the ambient light. This can be done with a -EV exposure compensation using Av or Manual mode.

The flash will be the main light for the subject. This can be ETTL or manual flash.
Some test shots and trail and error will be necessary.

[TMR Design]

Once you're using flash or strobes the idea is to NOT have the camera do the thinking for you, as it doesn't always make the right 'suggestion'. When you shoot in manual mode you're taking control of every aspect of the shot and the exposure. You're using shutter speed to accurately control the amount of ambient light in the shot and you're using aperture to control both depth of field and the amount of flash in your shot.

Any of the auto modes will not always give you the results you want and won't give you consistent results. Repeatability is the key to controlling light.

[pixel_junkie]

Av mode or Manual mode are used ONLY for the ambient light exposure.(background) In this case you need to underexpose the ambient light. This can be done with a -EV exposure compensation using Av or Manual mode.

The flash will be the main light for the subject. This can be ETTL or manual flash.
Some test shots and trail and error will be necessary.

Thank you sir!

Once you're using flash or strobes the idea is to NOT have the camera do the thinking for you, as it doesn't always make the right 'suggestion'. When you shoot in manual mode you're taking control of every aspect of the shot and the exposure. You're using shutter speed to accurately control the amount of ambient light in the shot and you're using aperture to control both depth of field and the amount of flash in your shot.

Any of the auto modes will not always give you the results you want and won't give you consistent results. Repeatability is the key to controlling light.

Okay, thanks. Got it. So when you shoot with flash, do you set up both manually always or only your camera stays in manual?

[Jim M]

I'm not sure why Av is such a popular mode. Aperture is almost never as important as shutter speed. I shoot way more in Tv than in Av. That being said, I shoot almost all my flash shots with the camera in manual mode. However, I tend to use the flash in ETTL mode. Not always, though. I seem to be doing a fair bit of manual flash lately, not even counting studio flash.

I'll take a crack at explaining this. In Tv and Av, the camera tries to make a proper exposure as if there was no flash involved. Then it throws in a little flash to fill the shadows. In those two modes, the emphasis is always on the ambient light exposure. Of course, you can control this by dialing in a negative exposure compensation (or positive if you want it blown out). But that is why folks like shooting with the camera set on Manual.It gives you ultimate control.

[patrick clarke]

this is what i have learnt from other members on this site
when you are using flash to provide fill light only,such as in bright sunlight then av mode is fine,you just need to know how much FEC you need to dial in to acheive the right flash look and know when and how to use HSS :for example on a bright sunny day f2.8 iso 100 with an ss of 1/400 may require a FEC OF 0 OR -1
on the other hand when flash is your main source of light such as indoors or outdoors at night like your scene above then manual mode is better and you would adjust ss or aperture to 1 or 2 steps below ambient and shoot ettl
if your settings do not capture enough of the ambient light you could increase this by dragging the shutter(decreasing shutter speed ) or increasing iso

[pixel_junkie]

I'm not sure why Av is such a popular mode. Aperture is almost never as important as shutter speed. I shoot way more in Tv than in Av. That being said, I shoot almost all my flash shots with the camera in manual mode. However, I tend to use the flash in ETTL mode. Not always, though. I seem to be doing a fair bit of manual flash lately, not even counting studio flash.. I like AV because aperture is a creative element, the shutter speed is necessity (that's how I read it) so I start with the idea of the picture I want to take (aperture) and then get to "what do I need to get it" (shutter).

I'll take a crack at explaining this. In Tv and Av, the camera tries to make a proper exposure as if there was no flash involved. Then it throws in a little flash to fill the shadows. In those two modes, the emphasis is always on the ambient light exposure. Of course, you can control this by dialing in a negative exposure compensation (or positive if you want it blown out). But that is why folks like shooting with the camera set on Manual.It gives you ultimate control.

On the flash right? Not the camera.

[pixel_junkie]

this is what i have learnt from other members on this site
when you are using flash to provide fill light only,such as in bright sunlight then av mode is fine,you just need to know how much FEC you need to dial in to acheive the right flash look and know when and how to use HSS :for example on a bright sunny day f2.8 iso 100 with an ss of 1/400 may require a FEC OF 0 OR -1
on the other hand when flash is your main source of light such as indoors or outdoors at night like your scene above then manual mode is better and you would adjust ss or aperture to 1 or 2 steps below ambient and shoot ettl
if your settings do not capture enough of the ambient light you could increase this by dragging the shutter(decreasing shutter speed ) or increasing iso

Thanks Patrick! This would be in manial mode on the flash, yes? Not ETTL (although I can stil dial in FEC in ETTL)?

[patrick clarke]

no,this is manual mode on the camera with the flash in ettl
you can go with manual flash if your lights are a fixed distance from your subject but if your distance is constantly changing such as a wedding reception ettl may be easier unless you are very adept at manual flash and can chage the settings very quickly
if it's a photo session where there is no rush then manual flash is fine,it just requires some chimping to get the right settings

[msowsun]

In flash photography there is always TWO exposures. One for ambient and one for flash.

Most experienced photographers prefer to use Manual mode in the camera to control ambient. You can use Av or TV or even P if you wish, but you must understand how it works and how it will tend to correctly expose (or overexpose) the ambient light in the scene when using flash. (Unless it is only a little fill-flash, you need to underexpose the scene, as in this example) You can use - EV exposure compensation in the camera, but it is so much easier just to use Manual mode.

For flash you can use ETTL with +/- FEC, or Manual flash. Experienced photographers use both but as Patrick said, ETTL is much better when dealing with constantly changing scenes.

[pixel_junkie]

Thanks guys, this is great help. Now I'm getting somewhere.

On another note, I just noticed that my SIMGA 30 produces soft images consistently when used wit my flash and it isn't user error.

[Wilt]

Okay, thanks. Got it. So when you shoot with flash, do you set up both manually always or only your camera stays in manual?

The point is 'control' -- YOURS!

You might want to consider Auto anything to be 'camera/flash sets itself'
...yet you CAN maintain some control over the flash via use of FEC. So putting the flash on ETTL with a specific FEC setting is maintaining control over it, asking it to give less/more exposure than it otherwise might.

While using EC on Auto ambient exposure is maintaining a degree of control over ambient light exposure, you are still relinquishing a degree of control...as you move your framing about, notice that the exposure set by the camera (even with EC set) will often change (some metering modes exhibit this more than others, by their nature). Manual permits you to LOCK the exposure to a specific setting regardless of framing effects on the meter (and bypass the need for EC, by doing so).

The same control, or relinquishing control, affect flash exposure, too. FEC asks it to give more/less light, but it still is altering the output depending upon the framing. If you put the flash into Manual, too, then you can lock flash exposure to a specific level also...but you sacrifice the ease engendered by ETTL automation, and put yourself back to what we had to do 40 years ago, with manual everything and computation of flash exposure with Guide Numbers (and that is made even more difficult today because flash zoom heads change the GN whenever the FL changes on the flash head!)

[HeadShotz]

Once you're using flash or strobes the idea is to NOT have the camera do the thinking for you, as it doesn't always make the right 'suggestion'. When you shoot in manual mode you're taking control of every aspect of the shot and the exposure. You're using shutter speed to accurately control the amount of ambient light in the shot and you're using aperture to control both depth of field and the amount of flash in your shot.

Any of the auto modes will not always give you the results you want and won't give you consistent results. Repeatability is the key to controlling light.

Very true, but then again, there is someone like POTN member tonyr0584 doing incredible and consistent outdoor work using OCF in mostly AV mode, High Sync Speed and eTTL.
For starters check out photo examples in posts 1, 2 & 10 and read post #12. Though he as impressive shots all throughout the thread:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=653964

[pixel_junkie]

Thanks Wilt! That was important point for me to understand, that with ETTL, I can still adjust FEC if I need to.

[TMR Design]

Very true, but then again, there is someone like POTN member tonyr0584 doing incredible and consistent outdoor work using OCF in mostly AV mode, High Sync Speed and eTTL.
For starters check out photo examples in posts 1, 2 & 10 and read post #12. Though he as impressive shots all throughout the thread:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=653964

Absolutely. I didn't say it can't be done. There are some very talented people that do great work and do not conform to what others do (or preach). The other example of that are those that do brilliant work and do not own or use a hand held light meter.

But, those people have taken the time to learn about what they're doing and put into effect a method that allows for consistency and repeatability, as opposed to it being a random thing. Most people that use AV mode with flash haven't mastered the technique and are easily thrown off and confused by those inconsistencies that make them scratch their heads and cock their head as if they were a puppy looking up a ceiling fan. :D

[pixel_junkie]

Very true, but then again, there is someone like POTN member tonyr0584 doing incredible and consistent outdoor work using OCF in mostly AV mode, High Sync Speed and eTTL.
For starters check out photo examples in posts 1, 2 & 10 and read post #12. Though he as impressive shots all throughout the thread:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=653964


Wow, pretty unscientific, straight forward approach to using flash. The guy sounds like he just started shooting OCF yesterday but the results really are great. Thanks HeadShotz!

[bobbyz]

I'm not sure why Av is such a popular mode. Aperture is almost never as important as shutter speed. I shoot way more in Tv than in Av.

For most shooting conditions you want control over aperture, that is why Av is more popular. You want to shoot ambient portraits, you don't care what your ss is but do care a lot about aperture.

Tv can be useful say when you trying to get some blur like shooting prop planes, panning cars etc.

Want to use fast lens wide open, I would prefer Av (if not using manual) rather than Tv as by setting my ss, I am letting camera decide aperture which to me gives me lot less control.

[Wilt]

Very true, but then again, there is someone like POTN member tonyr0584 doing incredible and consistent outdoor work using OCF in mostly AV mode, High Sync Speed and eTTL.
For starters check out photo examples in posts 1, 2 & 10 and read post #12. Though he as impressive shots all throughout the thread:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=653964

Please do NOT forget that the end result might have resulted from considerable adjustment to RAW files, masking any exposure errors which might have occurred! In other words, you see the outcome in the link, you have no clue as to how close or how far from perfect was the shot was, out-of-camera with no postprocessing. Yes, the balance of ambient vs. flash cannot be altered, but the accuracy of the overall exposure and even the balance of highlight vs. shadow areas are easily controlled in programs like Lightroom. If I use my off-camera flash to fill in shadows, I can brighten the shadows even more if I provided insufficient light from the flash (FEC was set too low, for example) via simple use of the Fill function in Lightroom. A professional will use many different tools in his/her arsenal to achieve a beautiful end product as often as possible.

[DDCSD]

Thanks guys, this is great help. Now I'm getting somewhere.

On another note, I just noticed that my SIMGA 30 produces soft images consistently when used wit my flash and it isn't user error.


Can you post an example? If its sharp without flash and soft with flash then its user error.

[pixel_junkie]

Can you post an example? If its sharp without flash and soft with flash then its user error.

You're right :-) I just did a test on a tripod and the images are identical. I take that comment back :-)

[DDCSD]

You're right :-) I just did a test on a tripod and the images are identical. I take that comment back :-)

You're probably seeing the results of using AV mode with flash. The camera is likely choosing too slow of a shutter speed and you are seeing the blurred ambient exposure mixed with the sharp flash exposure.