A question of honesty...

[scraggles]

I've got a question and I need some outside opinions.

I have recently been saving up for a new camera, specifically the 20D. So, I sold my laptop, and my P&S and managed to get 1000$ out of the two. So, still a little short, I have to come up with more money. I decided to sell a guitar for 1400$. The very first day I put an ad up on the net, I got a number of responses and ended up settling with a guy in New Zealand who offered 100$ more than I had asked AND stated that he owned a shipping company that would take care of shipping 100%. So, all looked well. He got my address and proceeded to have his 'accountant' write me a check.

A few days later, I recieve the check in the mail.

It wasn't for 1500$ like he had offered.

The check clearly states that it is valued at 3900$. A giant boo boo? No. After contacting the seller, he stated that he wanted me to take my portion of the check, and wire the rest of the funds to a manager of his business in the UK.

I called the police when he also asked me if I could possibly buy him a few cell phones with the extra money. I didn't know if there were any laws about me purchasing that sort of thing and shipping it to him. I wanted to make sure that I wasn't going to get in any trouble. After talking to an officer, and leaving him with the full details that I just gave above, he told me that legally, he just purchased my guitar for 3900$ and that I don't have to give a single penny back. They check cleared by the way, I have the 2400$ cash that isn't "mine" right here just in case I do wire it to him.

Now, the final question is. Do I give him the extra money, or do I keep it? I mean, when it comes to morality, and doing 'what is right' I know I should give it right back. However, something actually doesn't feel right about giving the money back. I almost feel like I should keep it. What are your opinions?

[Andy_T]

Scraggles,

Be very WARY!!!!

you might search the net for more information on this.

It SOUNDS like a very well-known SCAM. Normally the check bounces, and the buyer has your item and the money you sent him back. The check might not bounce immediately, but some weeks later when the banks really find out it that it is not good.

Best regards,
Andy

[scraggles]

I was thinking that too, but it was a cashiers check. Which to my knowledge, can't bounce. Not to mention, the check can bounce, but it wouldn't penalize me. They already gave me cash. It'd be his account that would be in trouble.

Not to mention, I still haven't shipped out the item. He isn't using UPS or anything. He apparently has a shipping company that he owns.

[Vetteography]

I was thinking that too, but it was a cashiers check. Which to my knowledge, can't bounce. Not to mention, the check can bounce, but it wouldn't penalize me. They already gave me cash. It'd be his account that would be in trouble.

Not to mention, I still haven't shipped out the item. He isn't using UPS or anything. He apparently has a shipping company that he owns.

Not only can a cashiers check bounce, they are easily forged. You are being scammed. You send him the guitar and the rest of the money, or cell phones. The check comes back in a week or two as a fake cahsiers check, the bank takes the money back out of your account and you are screwed.

Be smart, run like hell.

[dewmuw]

I agree with Andy - be very careful. I read somewhere about a scam like that (specifically the part where he asks you to send money on to the UK) and it was a way of crooks laundering dirty money.

Think about it - why would someone you have never met send you an extra $2400 and trust that you will send it on for him? People just don't do that sort of thing - especially if, as he claims, he owns a number of businesses.

If he gets back in touch with you and asks for the money back I bet he asks for you to wire him the money or to give him your account details.

You may also find that although the check has 'cleared' your bank has not yet processed the cheque to accredit authenticity (why banks do this is beyond me) and it can take up to 3 weeks for this to happen and you then find that the money is removed from your account by the bank after the find it is a dud cheque.

[scraggles]

I cashed the check at a local bank in which I do not have an account. I then went to my bank after I got out of work that day and deposited my 1500$. I have 2400$ cash. That's why I am contemplating just keeping it. Something isn't right here and I'm trying to figure out what I should do. The police officer even told me to keep the extra cash. He said that if it is in fact a scam, it is not my problem unless I give him personal bank account info. I did not give him anything except my name and address. The officer told me that if I did keep the extra money due to internet sales laws, I do not have to give him his 'change'.

The sale wasn't made on E-bay either, so I don't have to worry about a bad rep or anything.

[Vetteography]

I work in the banking industry and so does my wife. There is not a single bank I know of that will cash a check like that for a non-customer. How you managed to get it done is beyond me.

Ok, let's pretend that you get away with it and that you now have this guy's money. If the transaction is legitimate and you keep his money, then you are the thief for keeping money that doesn't belong to you.

Then let's add in the highly improbably advice given to you by a local police officer, most of whom have no clue about internet transactions, banking laws etc.

Something about this whole thing stinks to high heaven. I call "Shenannigans".

[tommykjensen]

This is definately a scam. Don't ship the guitar.

I can't imagine how one can write $3900 instead of $1500 on a check as a mistake. It is done delibarately so You send him the $2400 and the guitar. Then weeks later the check is bounced, the bank takes back the $3900 resulting in a loss for You in the amount of $2400 + the guitar.

Keep all the money but don't spend it because the bank will request it back.

[Moppie]

ended up settling with a guy in New Zealand



Let one of us know his adress, phone number, and name of his bussiness we will let you know very quickly if its real or not.
New Zealand is a very small country. :cool:

Infact have a quick search in www.whitepages.co.nz (http://www.whitepages.co.nz) and see if you find anything on him. You should at least have his full name, and or company name from the cheque and shipping information.


Unforuatly it sounds a lot like a scam, and one I really reall don't like as it sounds like someone is useing the widly known good nature of kiwi's to try and make it work.


If they are in Auckland send me PM, I will gladly go knock on his door with Pete and Wazza and who ever else wants to come for a drive, and check out how legit it all is.

[dewmuw]

I cashed the check at a local bank in which I do not have an account. I then went to my bank after I got out of work that day and deposited my 1500$. I have 2400$ cash.

Wow. Banks in the US must be a lot different than in the UK. I could never walk into a bank where I have no account and get them to cash a cheque for me - be it for £3 or £3000. Especially if the cheque is made out to a named person rather than cash. Banks would simply lose millions that way.

If this guy has been foolish enough to send you money and asked you to send it on for him and to buy some phones and you keep it, then you are simply a thief.

The officer told me that if I did keep the extra money due to internet sales laws, I do not have to give him his 'change'.

So the police officer is an expert on international sales laws too? Must be better educated in this stuff than the average UK bobby.

The sale wasn't made on E-bay either, so I don't have to worry about a bad rep or anything.

Ever heard of something called a conscience?

Oh and he does have your name and address right?

[scraggles]

The whole point I'm getting at, is if I don't hear anything on a bounced check, then what? Say 2 weeks go by and nothing? What do I do then?

I checked those white pages. I didn't find him. The name is Pastor Ben Yusuke. However, everything with the name is legit. Whether its his name or not, we'll never know. When we started talking about the cell phones is when things got sketchy in my eyes. He stated that he wanted me to purchase 5 of the cell phone for him because they are cheaper in the US than they are in New Zealand. Apparently, in NZ, they are about 860$ each, and in the US, the are only 650. I proceeded to tell him that I didn't have 3200$ to buy cell phones with.

It got weird here. He e-mailed me his mastercard information. I know that there is a 99.99999999 % chance that this is a scam. I never doubted that.

The officer told me that if it is in fact a scam, I did not do anything illegal, and that I would not even have to give the money back if it was stolen, because I had absolutley no knowledge of it being stolen. If the money is stolen, bank insurance will cover it. I have every e-mail, and IM conversation saved, and backed up in 2 seperate locations. Here, and at work. He called me last night to make sure that I did't have problems cashing the check. That was also recorded.

So, now I have 3900$, and all he wants in return, is for me to purchase a few items for him because they are cheaper here. That sounds fishy. Another thing, the check was not written by him. It was written by a company in the UK. He claimed it was his 'creditor'. It did not have his name on it at all.

Reminds me of that guy who got one of those letters in the mail with a 'fake' check claiming that he won a million dollars. For kicks considering it was april fools day, he decided to go make an attempt to deposit the check. It worked. The check actually cleared. He put all the money in a safety deposit box and when goons started to show up demanding the money back he refused. The company cutting the checks took him to court and lost miserably because they were actually using real checks and just stamping 'void' on them which in the US does NOT actually void out the check as long as there are something like 7 requirements met on the check, I don't remember them specifically, but they were, a signature, dollar amount, spelled out and numerically printed, and some other crap. The word void, was, in fact, voided.

Anyway, if the **** does NOT hit the fan, I should keep the money, eh?

[scraggles]

Wow. Banks in the US must be a lot different than in the UK. I could never walk into a bank where I have no account and get them to cash a cheque for me - be it for £3 or £3000. Especially if the cheque is made out to a named person rather than cash. Banks would simply lose millions that way.

If this guy has been foolish enough to send you money and asked you to send it on for him and to buy some phones and you keep it, then you are simply a thief.



So the police officer is an expert on international sales laws too? Must be better educated in this stuff than the average UK bobby.



Ever heard of something called a conscience?

Oh and he does have your name and address right?

I stated it is a cashiers check. Not a personal check. Here is the wiki on cashiers check


Cashier's check

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

A cashier's check is a check issued by a bank on its own account for the amount paid to the bank by the purchaser with a named payee, and stating the name of the party purchasing the check (the remitter). The check is received as cash since it is guaranteed by the bank and does not depend on the account of a private individual or business. Cashiers' checks are commonly used when payment must be credited immediately upon receipt for business, real estate transfers, tax payments and the like.


The officer did not have any knowledge on international sales laws. This was not an international issue. It is a web related issue, and yes, that is what he specialized in.

Do I have a conscience? Not if this guy is trying to scam me. Thats when I get evil.

Does he have my address? Yes. However, PO Box 35 gets him nowhere.

[dewmuw]

So, now I have 3900$, and all he wants in return, is for me to purchase a few items for him because they are cheaper here. That sounds fishy. Another thing, the check was not written by him. It was written by a company in the UK. He claimed it was his 'creditor'. It did not have his name on it at all.

PENNY DROPS LOAD AND LONG. IT IS A STOLEN OR FORGED CHEQUE.

Was the cheque made out to cash or to you personally?

What was the name on the cheque? If it was a company name I can tell you straight away if they are a real UK company.

[tommykjensen]

Do I have a conscience? Not if this guy is trying to scam me. Thats when I get evil.


Problem is that it probably is not his money You are keeping but someoneelses money (bank, company or private individual)!

[scraggles]

The company on the check was Dlaw Shipping and more specifically, it was signed by Mr Robinson Scote

The money isn't a private individuals. If it is, the bank insurance would cover that. If its the banks fault, maybe it'll get them to beef up security a bit. However, why should I feel bad that they allow this to happen?

[dewmuw]

There is no company in the UK registered under the name of Dlaw Shipping and there is no company director by the name of Robinson Scote. I checked two separate industry databases and companies house.

There is a Robinson Scote registered as a business owner in Nigeria. Interestingly a mobile phone store. Where you asked to buy Nokia 7650's by any chance?

[scraggles]

No, now that is strange. Since you mentioned Nigeria

The phones were to be shipped to:
Holy Sent Church
20 Abiodon Street
Lagos Nigeria
Zip 23401

The phones were Sony Ericsson p910i unlocked.

Edit: He said that the phones needed to make it to Nigeria because of his daughters wedding.

[scraggles]

Moppie, how is the english of the New Zealanders? That reminds me. Yours seems perfect. His english is absolutely horrible.

[dewmuw]

Nigeria is the home of scams! Read this:

"One of the current schemes involves a scammer contacting someone who has an item for sale on the Internet. The person pulling the scam will send the seller a check for more than the amount of what they are purchasing, like sending a $7,000 check for a $5,000 car.

They ask that the seller return the difference. By the time the check clears and is discovered to be counterfeit, the seller is out a couple thousand dollars.

The target is usually a person selling a relatively expensive item on the Internet, or possibly even in newspaper classified ads. The seller is approached by an individual, usually from a foreign country, who wants to buy the item and pay with a cashier’s check.

The buyer then says that he or she can only send a cashier’s check for an amount greater than the price of the item, and asks the seller to mail back a check for the difference. The difference may be several thousand dollars. The unsuspecting victim sends the buyer the difference and only later finds out the cashier’s check was counterfeit.

What makes this plot work is that most people place great confidence in cashier’s checks. Cashier’s checks are generally considered much safer than personal checks, since they are issued by financial institutions that have already verified the existence of sufficient funds. Personal checks can “bounce” when there are insufficient funds in the check writer’s account; cashier’s checks do not bounce.

The counterfeits are generally of excellent quality and may even fool the bank initially.

Unfortunately, this scam can harm innocent citizens twice. Under some state laws, the bank may be considered the actual victim of the crime, while the citizen is may be viewed as the perpetrator for passing the counterfeit check.

Adding further to the deviousness of the scheme is the fact that the criminal does not ask for an advance fee. More and more people are savvy enough to recognize the request for an advance fee as the tell-tale sign of the so-called Nigerian fraud. The counterfeit cashier’s check scam has found a way to disguise this red flag. The consumer is offered a large sum to deposit, so the refund check seems to be covered.

In order to avoid detection by the fraud department of Western Union, the scammers are now asking that the larger amounts be sent in two or more smaller transfers.

While there has been a huge increase in the use of counterfeit cashier's checks by Nigerians in the later part of 2003, this article clearly indicates it has taken a while to perfect this online scam."

Sounds to me that you got 'lucky' when you cheque was cleared.

Honestly mate if I was you I would go back to the bank where you cashed it, explain the situation in full and suggest to them that you think it might be a scam.

[scraggles]

Wow. Where'd you get this info?

He did want me to wire the money back via Western Union and said to do it in sums of less than 700$ for 'insurance reasons'

I'm just going to hold onto the money for a while. at least 2 months. If he tries to contact me I'll just let him know I'm going to report him for scamming. If the bank somehow gets in touch with me, hell, I didn't know better. I"ll just return the money in full.

[dewmuw]

Because of the job I do I can access company information quite easily. Part of my role is also to help companies who have been victims of scams and we get this sort of thing all the time. Lots of people think that they can out-scam the scammers - but they never do.

As soon as you hear or see nigeria, cashiers cheque overpayment, shipping agent and are asked to wire money back stay well away. It is a scam.

I hope you don't take this wrong way and I am not trying to scare you, but if the FBI turn up at your door in 6 weeks time and accuse you of passing dud cheques, as soon as you say "Oh I've got the cash here in my sock drawer and I was about to take it back to the bank" then you have got problems explaining that away.

[Moments]

That is normally a scam, as the checks will clear at first with the bank that it has been deposited in, and then I heard it could take a month or longer for it to be bounced back from the bank in the country that it was issued from. The different shipping addresses to send things in different counties help to hide the person's who are working the scam.

This happened to one of my photographers this winter. He went to his bank in NYC to deposit the $7000.00 International Money orders he recieved for a $1500.00 job he was hired to do this summer. He was contacted through his websites email. He emailed the person who sent the money, and they gave him the exact type of excusses and requests, (buy some stuff and send back the excess money) and asked a question about the transaction, and the bank would not deposit the checks. The then the bank called the US Postal inspector. It is mail fraud.


Yesterday I to was contacted though my studios email to travel to the Netherlands to photograph a wedding in June. I will be compensated for all my expenses, yada yada yada, Scam scam scam.
I have seen this and other same type scams come into my email at least 4-5 other times.

As always, if it seems to good to be ture, it is.

[Andy_T]

Quite frankly,

... on one hand it's nice to have $2,400 :D
... on the other hand, a criminal who knows your name and address might be holding some grudge against you :confused:
... and you might at this moment be considered an accomplice in a bank fraud :shock:

... wish you luck!

Best regards,
Andy

[pcasciola]

I checked those white pages. I didn't find him. The name is Pastor Ben Yusuke. White pages!! Why not Google? I just did a Google search of Pastor Ben Yusuke, and the first hit was, guess what, a cashiers check purchase scam by him.

Here's the link:
http://www.byui.edu/scroll/20050412/news1.html

And, if that bank finds out in the next few days that the cashier's check was a forged one, guess who they are going to go after for fraud? I'd go back to that bank today and explain the situation before things go really bad. I can't believe they cashed it for you. I think some bank clerk is going to be in a lot of trouble too.

[scraggles]

Quite frankly,

... on one hand it's nice to have $2,400 :D
... on the other hand, a criminal who knows your name and address might be holding some grudge against you :confused:
... and you might at this moment be considered an accomplice in a bank fraud :shock:

... wish you luck!

Best regards,
Andy
I'm sure our government would cut me some slack with all the evidence that I have proving that I had no part in this other than just trying to sell a guitar.

Anyway, this guy called me again. He's trying to get me to buy watches, clothes and other crap with all my own money. I came up with the excuse that I don't have the cash, of course to force him to provide me with the money. He had no way of doing that then he proceeded to harass me stating that he NEEDS it by saturday, and that I don't trust him. I promptly hung up on him.

Now I have 3900$ of his money. It's going to sit there in my bank account until I am 100% positive that it has cleared.

After talking to him on the phone, I'm convinced that this is a scam. What man who is CLEARLY NIgerian, spends 1400$ on a guitar? None...

Better yet, what Nigerian guitarist, buys a Kirk Hammet (Metallica) Signature series guitar?

After starting this thread and the fact that you guys saw it was a scam, I was really thinking about things.

After the very 1st e-mail, he never mentioned the guitar again.
He never saw pics of the guitar.

Yeah, well, you can't catch em all. I never would have let him scam me. I am very thorough in checking it out before I do anything about it.

Thats why I didn't send the guitar out yet.

As I was typing this he IM'd me. I told him I was mailing it out today. Is there somewhere I can report him? Or should I just take my money and run?

[scraggles]

White pages!! Why not Google? I just did a Google search of Pastor Ben Yusuke, and the first hit was, guess what, a cashiers check purchase scam.

Here's the link:
http://www.byui.edu/scroll/20050412/news1.html

And, if that bank finds out in the next few days that the cashier's check was a forged one, guess who they are going to go after for fraud? I'd go back to that bank today and explain the situation before things go really bad. I can't believe they cashed it for you. I think some bank clerk is going to be in a lot of trouble too.

Hahahaha the same bank clerk cashed my paycheck a few months back, and the bitch gave me a counterfit 50$. When I went to deposit in my bank, the clerk at my bank caught it.

[tommykjensen]

Now I have 3900$ of his money.

That is not correct. You have $3900 that belong to someoneelse. Now that You know this is a scam You should return the money to the bank were You cashed it.

[scraggles]

Well, to my good fortune I just got off the phone with the bank.

The check cleared. Or at least from the bank I cashed it at. They said there was absolutely nothing fraudulent about it.

However, I mentioned the word 'fraud' to my little Nigerian buddy, and now when I send him an e-mail I get a mailer daemon error! I'm blocked!!!

Thanks guys for helping me take care of the scammer. I'm still going to keep the money in my account for a few months to avoid any problems. The worst that could happen, they take it back. So far, it looks like this guy just lost 3900$ trying to solitify the foundation of his scam. As any internet geek would say... 'pwnd'. Well, hopefully the months will pass, and I will be able to keep the money. I'll keep you informed.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Title of the thread has become ironic don't you think?.. honesty certainly does not seem to be the path chosen.

[scraggles]

Dishonesty how?

This guy apparently scams people. Day after day. Now, his scam backfires on him once, and what do I do?
A) Give the money back to the bank, which as far as I can tell is LEGIT, so I'm basically just giving this scammer back his money. He wins.
B) Keep the money. Maybe it'll slow him down a bit, and I have some extra cash. I win, he loses, no laws broken.

Yes, it is somewhat dishonest keeping the money because maybe I didn't earn it. Let him take me to court. I'd love it. I'll use his money to pay for my lawyer.

[dannym]

This is the reason for the "Oil For Food" investigation that's going on. In transactions like this, one never knows who we are really dealing with. Terrorists? Organized Crime? It's quite possible in todays world. It would be a sad thing if one of those phones was used to trigger a bomb that killed innocent people. And, I wouldn't want Bin-Laden knowing where I live if I had his money. Just some thoughts.

[snibbetsj]

That check is going to bounce and the bank will want their money back. This is a typical scam a lot of e-bayers are getting caught up in an screwed. For more info go to www.419eater.com (http://www.419eater.com) or www.419legal.com (http://www.419legal.com) Don't spend the money, the bank is going to want it back.

[sixshot]

I have just sat here and read this and the google thread passed on by Philip. As far as I can see everyone thinks its a scam and that you should head straight to the bank and explain the situation. I have been saving for a 20D for too long - will eventually get one - but if this happened to me I would not keep it. It is not mine. Pure and simple.

You seem to be justifying keeping the cash in may of your posts, is this for us or for you? It also seems your mind is made up....

I'm just going to hold onto the money for a while. at least 2 months.

Now I have 3900$ of his money. It's going to sit there in my bank account until I am 100% positive that it has cleared.

You clearly stated his money.....Indeed - not yours. Probably not his either.

Ignore these posts given you advice if you wish, but if the s**t does hit the fan, you'll be in the middle of it - the bank, the police, the person you stole from, the scammer or if none of these, it will be your conscience. You choose.

[sixshot]

I took a while typing my post and a few more responses have been added while doing so. Why not log off now, you obviously are not interested in the advice you asked for. Has anyone actually said keep it apart from you.

In my opinion, and you or anyone else can disagree, you are as bad as him if you sit on the cash and make no effort to return it to the owner.

[tommykjensen]

So far, it looks like this guy just lost 3900$ trying to solitify the foundation of his scam. As any internet geek would say... 'pwnd'. Well, hopefully the months will pass, and I will be able to keep the money. I'll keep you informed.

Unfortunately it is not the scammer that lost money but either a bank, a company or another private individual. Don't You get it? You said Yourself the check did not have his name on it but a company name that to our knowledge does not exist.

[scraggles]

I just called the local police department again. As long as I do not spend any money, I can not be held liable for anything at all. By law, if the check was a fraud, the bank would HAVE to contact me within 24 hours. It is their responsibility. If they do not, then they are responsible for any money the checked covered. I am STILL going to hold onto the money.

Why? Because I'm 22, I work full time, I go to school full time and I can not afford a car. I take OPPORTUNITIES. I need money.

The thing is, this check came from the scammers account. He deserves to lose it. I need it more than him.

[snibbetsj]

The money didn't come from the scammers account because it's a fake check. It may take several weeks but it's going to bounce. The bank IS going to want their money back and you'd better have it ready to give to them.

[scraggles]

Unfortunately it is not the scammer that lost money but either a bank, a company or another private individual. Don't You get it? You said Yourself the check did not have his name on it but a company name that to our knowledge does not exist.

Do you really think scammers work alone? No. Why would he want me to wire the money to a company in Nigeria if there was no company in nigeria to recieve it? The way it apparently works, is he sends too much money, then, when someone cashes it, it temporarily goes through, he hopes the wire the money out of their own account to cover what he overpaid. Then, when the fraudulent check is found, you get screwed and not him.

I do not feel guilty at all. The title of this thread was based STRICTLY on if this was a legit guy.

[eastcoast909]

Sorry, but I think that you are wrong. The title of the post says it all.


It's not your money, regardless where it comes from.

As for the question, I think that it has been answered.

[tommykjensen]

Do you really think scammers work alone? No. Why would he want me to wire the money to a company in Nigeria if there was no company in nigeria to recieve it? The way it apparently works, is he sends too much money, then, when someone cashes it, it temporarily goes through, he hopes the wire the money out of their own account to cover what he overpaid. Then, when the fraudulent check is found, you get screwed and not him.

I do not feel guilty at all. The title of this thread was based STRICTLY on if this was a legit guy.

Hmm, sorry to say so but I think You may have ruined Your options of ever selling/buying anything to/from users here...

It is not Your money.
It is not the scammers money.
The money should be returned to the bank, anything else is dishonest.

[scraggles]

I don't get it. The police tell me to keep it, the bank tells me to keep it, and you guys tell me its dishonest. God, I wish I knew what the hell 'honest' was.

[sixshot]

Not what you are doing for a start!

[jfrancho]

I guess it is a matter of disclosure. How much information did you give the police and the bank? Their recommendations should be solid as long as they have had full disclosure.

[scraggles]

I told the police that it was most likely a scam. I e-mailed the officer I was talking to the article you guys found, along with the e-mails he sent me.

The officer clearly stated 'Yep, this is definitely the same scam.'

Then he told me to keep the money, only return it if asked to. I told the attendant at the bank that there was a VERY good chance that the check was a fraud. She said the check passed their scanners without any problems, so as far as they were concerned, it was legit. It is no longer their problem. If the check is a fraud, it is up to the originating bank.

The bank and police told me to keep the money. So, I'll do just that until I have a bank manager calling me.

[jfrancho]

Since the legality question has been answered, this becomes a morality issue, and I'm not sure if the forum is the place to hash this out. We have a very diverse audience here.

[tommykjensen]

If the check is a fraud, it is up to the originating bank.


But where do You think the originating bank goes when they discover the scam? To the bank where You cashed the check. And where do You think that bank are going when that happens? You.


I don't get it. The police tell me to keep it, the bank tells me to keep it, and you guys tell me its dishonest. God, I wish I knew what the hell 'honest' was.

Problem is that once You learned that You learned this was a scam You can no longer claim You did not know something was wrong and You are obliged to correct that. If You think the bank is just going to take the loss You are wrong. Somebody will pay. And You can be sure that it won't be the bank or the scammer.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Did you send them the guitar?

No.

So you have taken someones money and not supplied the merchandise.

This is how it started and has gone on from there.
If the check is "good" you are stealing from the person who sent it,. if the check is bad, you are stealing from the bank...

Regardless of how it turns out.. there is one thing that is absolutely certain.
The money is not yours.

[CyberPet]

This is how I see it: You cannot claim "in good trust" since you've been informed here, by people in NZ and UK that this person does not exsist or the company he claims to own is not in any records either. You've also been informed, in detail, how these types of scams are working, and that this check *will* bounce eventually.

If you keep the money, you've comitted fraud, even if you can prove your innocence. But you haven't covered your tracks completely. In *this* thread, anyone can read that you *are* aware this is a scam and that you hope that you can scam the scammer. What you're doing is scamming yourself and you might not want that little "mark" on yourself for the future. You are 22 years old and have your whole future ahead of you, but you aren't acting smart right now.

I know it's tempting to keep the money and hope to scam the scammer, since you've been told it's fine from both the bank that cashed the check and the local police. But what about FBI, who investigate frauds? Will they buy your excuses?

My suggestion is that you contact FBI and tell them your story, provide them with ALL your emails and phone logs. Let them deal with it, instead of you being the target for check fraud.

Honestly, I'd made the call as soon as I saw the first references about this type of scam. I think you should too. Don't wait until it's too late, you cannot claim you did it in good faith anymore. You've been informed, and you are making informed decisions about how to "deal" with this. Might get you in more trouble than you hoped for.

Btw, there's no free picknicks.

[mbze430]

You are asking all the WRONG sources. you really need to do is consult a LAWYER. Its simple, liability. When something does happen with that check, the banks doesn't care who is at fault, they will sue who ever they can get ahold of, liability.

Since this is mail fraud, Federal Gov will step in as well. I think the $3900 won't even cover for your cost for the lawyer to defend you in court as to why you knew it was fraud, and did not return the money.

All the information here can be used against YOU for not returning the money....


Think about it REAL hard. Think REALLY HARD.

[embdaw]

You might want to think long and hard about this comment.........



If you keep the money, you've comitted fraud, even if you can prove your innocence. But you haven't covered your tracks completely. In *this* thread, anyone can read that you *are* aware this is a scam and that you hope that you can scam the scammer.

I just spent 10 minutes reading all the posts in this thread, and I have come to the conclusion that you are aware that someone has tried scamming you, and other taking the high road and reporting the incident, you are going to sit on your a** and keep money that doesnt belong to you (and probably the person who sent it too...)

Just the fact that you have the audacity to think this is acceptable behavior is beyond me and it makes me quite aggrivated. It is dishonisty like this that causes honest people greif. You say that everyone (meaning police, bank, etc) is telling you keep it...fact is, you should have NEVER cashed the check to begin with. You should have returned to sender.

You really should listen to all the GOOD advice being given to you by the users on this forum....because if what you are saying is true..that your local authorities are avocating your frauduelt activities... the comments on this site will keep your butt out of court more than the advice of the police. Because whether you want to belive this or not, IT WILL CATCH UP WITH YOU...you cant see it now because the Green Eyed Monster has ahold of you and you are being greedy....but when the FBI or the bank is calling you for fraudlent activites...dont say we didnt warn you!

[jfrancho]

I don't think everyone is seeing scraggles dilemma here. If he keeps the money and does nothing, you are judging him as dishonest. If he follows through with the alleged (and likely, it would seem) scammer's sales conditions, he will be judged a fool for falling for such a scam. He has gone to the bank, and the authorities and they both have told him top sit on the cash. I would be curious how the FBI would proceed. If they say sit on it, would you then demand he contact Interpol? He is holding the money for a reasonable time frame. There is the possibility that scraggles is not fully aware of what exactly the police are doing in the background.

[neil_r]

Will one of the mods please move this to the conscience and morality forum, then I won’t keep coming back to it as I lack the two basic ingredients to enter that place ;)

N

[tommykjensen]

I don't think everyone is seeing scraggles dilemma here.

I believe there is no dilemma here.

This is what I think: When he got the check he must have known that it either was a scam or a mistake. Why else would he cash it in immediately in a bank where he does not have an account? If You expect a check of $1500 but get one for $3900 huge alarm bells should ring immediately.

[tommykjensen]

Will one of the mods please move this to the conscience and morality forum, then I won’t keep coming back to it as I lack the two basic ingredients to enter that place ;)

N

http://photo.klein-jensen.dk/smilies/rotfl.gif

[Citizensmith]

I just called the local police department again. As long as I do not spend any money, I can not be held liable for anything at all. By law, if the check was a fraud, the bank would HAVE to contact me within 24 hours. It is their responsibility. If they do not, then they are responsible for any money the checked covered. I am STILL going to hold onto the money.


And I'm sure they will notify you withing 24 hours of discovering it is a fraud. That won't happen until the check is received by the bank holding the account. At a guess this is a dollar check drawn against a UK bank which slows down payment considerably. Whenever you mix currencies the check needs to be sent to the bank of origin for clearance. So two months later the bank where you've got the money receives a letter saying the check wasn't cleared due to fraud and then they'll come after you.

I'm actually going to agree with you. If by some miracle the check actually clears then go ahead and keep the money. If both your bank and the originating bank clear it the liability becomes theirs if there is a problem. If one of their customers comes to them and protests they cleared a check that the customer never wrote they will cover their customer. This scam only works because people fail to realise that both banks need to clear a check as they are used to it happening behind the scenes.

I just want to warn you that two months may be a little short. I used to work as a foreign cashier and we'd usually quote 4 to 8 weeks for clearance, but I had a check actually drawn on an Australian government account that took 7 months of phone calls before it finally, successfully cleared. You paid the check in to cashier who doesn't have the first clue about foreign currency transactions (as is common in US banks). If you'd actually gone somewhere with a foreign desk they would have been able to correctly advise you real time this would take you to clear.

[Andy_T]

Will one of the mods please move this to the conscience and morality forum, then I won’t keep coming back to it as I lack the two basic ingredients to enter that place ;)

N

I respectfully disagree.
It belongs in this forum ..... because you get a nice camera with $3,900 :lol:

Best regards,
Andy

PS: I'd go with MBZE's advice and ask a lawyer.

[jfrancho]

I believe there is no dilemma here.

This is what I think: When he got the check he must have known that it either was a scam or a mistake. Why else would he cash it in immediately in a bank where he does not have an account? If You expect a check of $1500 but get one for $3900 huge alarm bells should ring immediately.You might be right, but scraggles indicated otherwise. Like I said, we can only assume based on his disclosure. I personally find this an interesting hypethetical ethical question to ask friends and coworkers. So far, most common response has been "call your laywer." Perhaps that is what is going on here?

[pcasciola]

I respectfully disagree.
It belongs in this forum ..... because you get a nice camera with $3,900 :lol:
Seriously. He was saving for a 20D, and now can afford a 1DMkII instead, hopefully at the expense of the scammer and not the bank or some other poor sap who's account the funds were likely drawn from.

It seems the "Pastor Ben Yusuke" scam has been going on for a while now, so this might just be a little payback for the other poor folks that have been scammed out of some money. Even the scammers make mistakes from time to time. As long as the scammer is actually eating the loss, I wouldn't feel too bad about it. There's a good chance it will be a loss of the bank that cleared the check for you though, or some other random person who just had their identity stolen and will find out this week a $3900 certified check was drawn against their account.

The only definite thing I would do at this point is wait. There's a good chance you will be hearing from the FBI and/or the bank within the next couple of weeks.

[Rob612]

Thanks guys for helping me take care of the scammer. I'm still going to keep the money in my account for a few months to avoid any problems. The worst that could happen, they take it back.

I won't do that.. Sure, "innocent until proved guilty" works. BUT I will report everything to your local FBI (I believe that in the US bank fraud is a federal offense, correct me if I am wrong) and let them manage everything. Just to make sure you do not have, in the future, to pay attorneys to defend you against anything that could happen. Cheap insurance, the money is not yours so at the end you loose nothing.

[Rob612]

My suggestion is that you contact FBI and tell them your story, provide them with ALL your emails and phone logs. Let them deal with it, instead of you being the target for check fraud.


I havent read this post before sayng the same thing. But CyberPet said it definitely better :D

Go talk your local FBI office, man. Now.

[Noni]

It is not Your money.
It is not the scammers money.
The money should be returned to the bank, anything else is dishonest.
Hear, hear! It isn't YOUR MONEY!

Look, I know what it's like to struggle. I know what it's like to eat Top Ramen for weeks, while I bust my tuchus to earn enough to pay the rent. I know what it's like to have the creditors call...and call...and call....and not answer the phone because the money's not there, and you're sick of getting yelled at. I know what it's like to get to the parking lot and see the empty space where you parked your car, because the repo guys came and took it because you couldn't pay the loan. I know what it's like to come home to a dark house, because you couldn't pay your light bill. Or a cold house because the gas got cut off...or...or...or....endless examples experienced in my life.

I know.

I also know about karma. What goes around, comes around. The world/universe/God/whatever presents us with opportunities to live our ethics, to do right even if no-one is watching. And when we have the shortsightedness to see only tomorrow, or the next week, then we really miss the big picture, which is the challenge to do the right thing even when it hurts us or deprives us of something we really want. I stress "want" because it's not a need, keeping the extra money.

One of the best phrases I've ever heard is "pure generosity is giving not when they need it most, but when you need it most." Turning that around to fit this situation, "honesty is behaving within ethical and integrity boundaries which are not subject to whims and wants, even though we'd really, really like to do something self gratifying but not ethical nor in integrity."

So how about this...

Donate the money - once you're absolutely sure it's cleared the bank!!! - to a charity you respect, or to these forums, or to the local homeless shelter, or to the pet rescue place around the corner. Do something NOT for you with the "found" money, and see what happens. The least that will occur is that you will feel better about yourself; and karma works interestingly, too. Sometimes, understanding "what goes around, comes around" is not negative, but positive (although we tend to see it as a punishment thing rather than a neutral cause and effect...).

Enough of my pontification. You will do as you will do; but realize that the effects of your actions will have far reaching ramifications...and be willing to accept them as they come, with integrity and responsibility and accountability. Your choice, your action, your result.

Best of luck.

Noni

[scraggles]

Alright, a few hours ago I went to the Albany office of the FBI. I gave them all the information I had. They said they'd call back within a few hours. They also told me, "Don't do anything with the money yet, you might not have to give it back". So, I went off, did my daily things, and returned to a mssg that said the check they gave to me was legit. So, they said my options with the money, keep it, or bring it back to the bank out of good heart.

Someone said something about a change in currency. There wasn't one, the check was provided in US dollars.

I've got 2 friends in Harvard for law. According to both of them, and 1 of their professors, I am doing nothing illegal. Even if the check was a fraud, based on the evidence I had at the time of me cashing the check, I did absolutley nothing wrong.

Finally, I figured... This might be effective to get to the bottom of this. I brought the 3900$ to the bank. I talked to a manager there about the problem and I explained who I had talked to and told him that I did not want to get in trouble 2 months down the line.
He told me that they can not legally take the money because they cleared the check, and the only way they can hold the money is if I open up an account with them. I told him that I was pretty sure the check was a fraud and he still stated, since the check has left the bank, if it does in fact turn out to be fraud, based on NY laws they are now responsible for not contacting me within 2 business days.

I asked him what he'd do. He told me he would be spending it.

I have every phone coversation with the FBI office recorded too.

Now, I'm going to tell you what I'm going to do. I'm going to buy my 20D. Grab some accessories. Then, I'm going to save the rest in order to get a car. Oh yeah. I'm keeping up my end of the deal too. I mailed out the guitar.

[jfrancho]

Oh yeah. I'm keeping up my end of the deal too. I mailed out the guitar.What about the cell phones? Was that not part of your end of the deal?

[Longwatcher]

My philosophy on this issue would dictate that even if I did not trust the person and thought he was scamming me, I would after a suitable period (say 6-8 weeks) ship the guitar out to the address given, since it was paid for and the check was cashed. However, the extra money above the expected sale price of the guitar would be a different dilemma.

I would lean towards after another 6-8 weeks to be sure, sending the extra money back to the person as I would be unlikely to desire to purchse any extra items for that person.

If I KNEW (as opposed to thought might be) however that the person in question was trying to scam me and he got caught, then the money is mine at that point as a tip for services rendered.

I am also having a little trouble believing that a bank that you did not have an account at let you cash the check, even a cashier's check. Unless it was that person's bank or I was opening an account at that moment and even then they would hold the money for 2 weeks at everyone I have ever used.

[mbze430]

Okay, if that is true of what they say the check is. Send your guitar. Because he rightfully have paid for it. By holding it, you are now committing a crime.

As for the rest of the money, I would send it back with the guitar. Because if he decide to sue you for not sending the so-call "other mecherandise" it will be your words against his. Again, are you willing to go to court and paid a lump sum of dollars to defend yourself.

Summary, get the name of the FBI officer you spoke with. Make sure they have documented your concern, get a copy of this documentation. Send out your guitar and the balance of the money back to the address. That would be the right thing to do.

[CyberDyneSystems]

I read a "blog" regarding a very similar event some months back. (years?)

The events were so similar to this one here,. and the turn of events on page four here (shipping the guitar??) are such that I am beginning to question if any of this is in fact taking place,. or if this is some interesting morality test? http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2hdzu/pics/scratchy.gif

Anyway,. at this point Scraggles it looks like you have certainly gone out of your way to do the right thing.


I think it's time we put this one to bed.