Cropping help please

[Daf]

Hi all,

I'm trying to get a grip on cropping for the best shot. I've read over the "rule of thirds" (thanks PhotosGuy!) but may need some guidance in applying it, please.

Here is the original shot:
http://www.dreamscraps.com/photos/neo800.jpg

Below is with a little color adjustment and the crop. How does that look? I tried to line the tennis ball up in a "third" space. But when you move the subject over it creates "dead" space doesn't it? I'm a little confused I have to admit. :o

http://www.dreamscraps.com/photos/neo600.jpg

Thanks for any help with this! :)

Daf

[Feihung08]

I think your right Daf about the 'dead' space. And one thing to remember is....."all rules were made to be broken"!!

Now this is just me talking, and I don't know the official 'photography philosophy", but I have an observation about this. Your dead space is to the left of the dog (from our 'viewer' perspective of course) right? And in the English language we "read" from left to right correct? So I've noticed that if you flip the picture horizontally so that the 'dead space' is now on the 'right' and the subject is on left, all seems to be forgiven. Plus I added a little 'dodge' into the shadowy side 'eye'.

Make sense? Or am I losing it?

[PhotosGuy]

"all rules were made to be broken"!! :D:D Guess who else said that! ;) How about this?

[tim]

Images can be centered - I think i'd prefer this one centered than put to the side for no good reason.

[Daf]

:D:D Guess who else said that! ;) How about this?

Yes you did and I remember that. :) I prefer it in the center, too.

The trick, for me, is going to be knowing when to use the "rule of thirds" and when not to... got a lot learn - that's for sure! :)

Thanks to all for the advice!

Daf

[PhotosGuy]

I prefer it in the center, too. I didn't plan it this way when I cropped it, but you'll notice that the eyes are about a third way down from the top.

[rdenney]

The direction of the dog's motion is to the right, but your empty space is to the left. Thus, the dog leads the viewer out of the image. The so-called rule of thirds is a hint, but there is another hint, that the motion of the image or subject should lead into the image rather than out of it. That is actually more important than the rule of thirds. (And the whole idea behind the rule of thirds is to avoid the static composition of putting the focal point dead center.)

The other thing is that the tennis ball is not really the focal point of the image, but rather the dog's eyes (and therefore his expression). Focusing on the subject would help, too, heh, heh.

Rick "who would suggest refining compositional skills on non-moving subjects because action shots require the compositional sense to be subconscious" Denney

[Feihung08]

Rick "who would suggest refining compositional skills on non-moving subjects because action shots require the compositional sense to be subconscious" Denney
Good tip Rick!
I'm going to be shooting a hockey game next Monday......I'm just gonna try and keep everyone centered and deal with the cropping later! Those guys are moving way to fast to try and get a 'perfect' composition!

[rdenney]

Good tip Rick!
I'm going to be shooting a hockey game next Monday......I'm just gonna try and keep everyone centered and deal with the cropping later! Those guys are moving way to fast to try and get a 'perfect' composition!

The best way to give yourself plenty to work with in action shots is to always pan a bit ahead of your subject. Your image should include the subject (the hockey player), and what's in front of him. That way, you are off-center and the direction of motion is still into the frame. That's enough to remember with action shots.

In practice, if your position suggests that you'll get better images panning left to right, then set your focus point over to the left, and us that as your target to pan with the subject.

Rick "who's no good at sports photography and should shut up" Denney

[Feihung08]

The best way to give yourself plenty to work with in action shots is to always pan a bit ahead of your subject. Your image should include the subject (the hockey player), and what's in front of him. That way, you are off-center and the direction of motion is still into the frame. That's enough to remember with action shots.

In practice, if your position suggests that you'll get better images panning left to right, then set your focus point over to the left, and us that as your target to pan with the subject.

Rick "who's no good at sports photography and should shut up" Denney
Well Rick, even if you've never accomplished shots like what you speak of, at least your here to help me prepare for my attempt! So don't you dare shut up! Your 'action into the frame' makes perfect sense though. I'm sure most of the action will be going from left to right at least at some point. They switch sides between periods so both teams will have that chance.

But I hate taking over Mr Daf's thread here *bows low* so will you look over another thread I started about this 'hockey shoot' and see if you can add to it? I was suggested to use a 'center focus' point there. http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=73008

[Daf]

Thanks, Rick, for the reply and advice. :) I appreciate it!

Daf

[Feihung08]

Thanks, Rick, for the reply and advice. :) I appreciate it!

Daf
Hey Daf, I notice that you dabble in the 3D imaging realm. Can I ask you about that? I was thinking of mixing some 3D imaging with regular photography and was wondering how hard that would be? Basically what I want to do is something like the pic below but add in the 'letter' instead of a live prop. Have you done this??

http://DicksDwelling.smugmug.com/photos/21907637-L.jpg

[Streetshooter]

I dunno...the first image has a sence of movement that the others don't have....his movement to the side where there is space makes me keep looking and feeling his movement...on the second one I loose that recycling feeling of movement.....the third...is just a snapshot of a dog.....

the theory of reading from left to right is what makes that image work in the first placeit makes the eye travel bounce back and forth........just my opinion.........don www.streetshooter.us

[Daf]

Hey Daf, I notice that you dabble in the 3D imaging realm. Can I ask you about that? I was thinking of mixing some 3D imaging with regular photography and was wondering how hard that would be? Basically what I want to do is something like the pic below but add in the 'letter' instead of a live prop. Have you done this??

http://DicksDwelling.smugmug.com/photos/21907637-L.jpg

I'm afraid I have no experience with this concept...altho I'm sure it's possible.
The first thing I would probably try is to create a plane or box and set it up to cover the screen area by setting the camera up to view it straight on. On this plane I would map a very high quality (tif or targa) copy of the photo you want to use. At that point you can create the text letter (using a spline in 3D Max) and position it in front of the mapped plane. The camera now sees both - the letter in front of the photograph. The tricky part will be post production in PS - You will have to replicate the shadows and "paint" in any interaction between the 2 subjects... the shadows will be especially tricky I would imagine.

Like I say I'm guessing at this point. There may be a better way to do this. You may want to ask at one of the 3D forums - lot's of extremely clever folk over at http://www.cgtalk.com/. Sorry I can't be more help than that. :confused:

Streetshooter - what you are saying makes sense to me. I guess you just have to try all the different approaches and go with the one that pleases you most? Thanks for the insight! :)

Daf

[PhotosGuy]

Streetshooter is right, we lose the motion in my crop. Since we usually crop to print, I'd have liked to have more area around the image to work with to get something that would fit a standard size paper, but we don't have to be restricted by those sizes, which is why someone came up with mattes. Another alternative would have been a long narrow crop that kept the feet in. (Best alternative would have been to shoot it right in the first place) ;-)

[Daf]

(Best alternative would have been to shoot it right in the first place) ;-)

So true and, believe me, I'm trying to do so more and more. My problem is that some of these shots happen rather quickly and my finger acts before the brain thinks. ;) But I am coming to realize the value in setting up the shot in my mind before hand... for the static shots anyway. I think the "action" shots will require a bit more experience and practice on my part.

Thanks for all the help!! :)

Daf

[rdenney]

So true and, believe me, I'm trying to do so more and more. My problem is that some of these shots happen rather quickly and my finger acts before the brain thinks. ;) But I am coming to realize the value in setting up the shot in my mind before hand... for the static shots anyway. I think the "action" shots will require a bit more experience and practice on my part.


Whatever you do, don't let the brain get in the way of the finger.

There are lots of photographers who have a great sense of composition. But there are many fewer who have a great sense of timing. Capturing the decisive moment it what action photography is about, and an image with good timing will be better than an image with great composition every time. Of course, it's better to have both, but you want the compositional sense so deeply buried that it doesn't get in the way of the finger. Play with composition on static subjects.

Rick "who thinks it's the difference between playing good scales and making good music" Denney

[Feihung08]

I'm afraid I have no experience with this concept...altho I'm sure it's possible.
The first thing I would probably try is to create a plane or box and set it up to cover the screen area by setting the camera up to view it straight on. On this plane I would map a very high quality (tif or targa) copy of the photo you want to use. At that point you can create the text letter (using a spline in 3D Max) and position it in front of the mapped plane. The camera now sees both - the letter in front of the photograph. The tricky part will be post production in PS - You will have to replicate the shadows and "paint" in any interaction between the 2 subjects... the shadows will be especially tricky I would imagine.

Like I say I'm guessing at this point. There may be a better way to do this. You may want to ask at one of the 3D forums - lot's of extremely clever folk over at http://www.cgtalk.com/. Sorry I can't be more help than that. :confused:
Daf
Ok, thanks for the help anyway! I'm gonna check out that site. I really don't know crappola about 3D so I figure it's gonna take some serious basic training first! Though I do have a copy of Cinema 4D. Is that good or compare to 3D Max?? Or is Maya better??
Man some of this 3D stuff is just amazing! Including YOURS!!!

[lostdoggy]

Rick "the philosopher" Denney. Were you a Sage in the pass life?

[rdenney]

Rick "the philosopher" Denney. Were you a Sage in the pass life?

Not at all. I'm an amateur photographer and an amateur musician, old enough to realize that my timing isn't the best in either. That's why my photography web page doesn't have pictures of people and animals. My posed shots are merely competent, and getting a good wildlife shot for me is a matter of good fortune. I have seen many great images go uncaptured, because I failed to push the button. It requires a sense of anticipation, and I just don't have it.

As for the advice I gave above, it's quite similar to musical training. One works on scales, long tones, slurs, flexibility exercises, and so on in non-musical contexts. That drills them so deeply that those skills appear unrequested when actually playing music. If you have to think about fingerings and such as that during musical performance, the musical expression will be lost. I know this by comparing my own playing with that of really good musicians.

Rick "who occasionally gets lucky" Denney

[Daf]

Ok, thanks for the help anyway! I'm gonna check out that site. I really don't know crappola about 3D so I figure it's gonna take some serious basic training first! Though I do have a copy of Cinema 4D. Is that good or compare to 3D Max?? Or is Maya better??
Man some of this 3D stuff is just amazing! Including YOURS!!!

Cinema 4D is a fine 3D application as is Maya - both could probably do what you are wanting to do. All of the 3D apps have substantial learning curves but you may be able to zero in on just that aspect and get want you want out of C4D - not sure. :confused: One thing about creating scenes in a 3D program that is different in photography is that you are in complete control of all the elements - lights, shadows, etc....

Good luck with ths project! And thank you for the nice comment about my artwork, too! :)

Daf