Indoor Action Shots

[Feihung08]

I know some people here have taken sports shots and some have experimented with them as well, so this question is for you........

I'm looking to take some indoor roller hockey shots (like the ones found here (http://www.photoreflect.com/scripts/prsm.dll?EventFrame?event=06XJ001Q)) and want to see if anyone has any tips?

I'll be using a friends 10D, and I'm waiting to hear what lenses he has. I know he has an image stabilizer glass which I don't think will help much right??

[pcasciola]

It all depends on the lighting, and whether or not you can use an external flash (Speedlight). Without a flash in a low light gym, you will roughly need an f/2 or faster prime, like the 135/2L or 85/1.8. If the lighting is moderately ok, you can get away with an f/2.8 lens, and with professional arena lighting you can go f/4. If it turns out the IS lens your friend has is the 70-200/2.8L IS, you are in business. Otherwise you will probably have to use a flash. Don't forget to bump up your ISO as well. ISO 3200 will be a little noisy on the 10D, but you may have no choice if you can't get at least 1/160 shutter speed at a wide open aperture. A noisy shot sure beats a blurry one.

I believe IS can help a lot for sports even though a lot of people disagree. It will not help freeze the action, but it still helps reduce shake. I took these four shots handheld with my 300/4L indoors at a professional arena, all with IS on. #3 was only 1/250th, and I don't think the shot would have been nearly that crisp without IS at 300mm. I'm nowhere near that steady.

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=58331

And here are some low light gym shots where I struggle even with an f/1.8 lens. This was my 2nd attempt at available light basketball in a poorly lit gym. The shots make it look pretty well lit, but trust me, it was much dimmer than the picture show.

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=57988

[Feihung08]

Ok, glad you responded pcasciola! I remembered someone on here did 'sports' shots but couldn't remember your name!

If you hit that link I posted.....that's actually the same gym I'm gonna be at. Same indoor rink. It's got those big giant lights that take like 10 minutes to warm up to full illumination.......is that what you dealt with in those gyms?

And I want to look for the 70-200/2.8L IS lens if possible! He told me he only knew that is was an "IS" kind, but it was an "L" series! So I'm keeping my fingers crossed. I myself have one of those "nifty fifties" (as they're referred to!) for my old film camera (EOS A2E), do you think I'll have any luck with that?

And you suggest I stay at or above 1/160 and keep the camera pumped up to around ISO 3200 to aviod any kind of blur?!?

Oh, and you basketball shots are actually really good! But I did read through there and will have to be ready to delete quite a bit! LOL! My only trick is gonna be the fact that I'll be playing in this game as well! So I'll only get to snap shots during line changes........when I'm totally winded! But I am gonna use a mono-pod.

[Feihung08]

Ok, here's what he's got.....

All Canon:
EF 70 - 200 2.8 L
EF 17 - 40 4 L
EF 28 - 135 2.8 IS
EF 50 2.5 plus Macro
Speedlite 550 EX

Plus my 50mm 1.8 (or is it a 1.4?!?!)

Should I go for the 28 - 135 2.8 IS or the 70 - 200 2.8 L??

[pcasciola]

I don't think there's such a thing as a 28-135 2.8 IS, but there is a 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS. But, either way, I think the 70-200/2.8L will be all you need, and with those lights you are talking about, you might actually be able to get away with a lower ISO and or stop it down a little. It sounds like the lighting are either metal halides or sodium vapor if they take a while to turn on. The arena I shot the first series I'm pretty sure were metal halides which let off a nice bright white light, but the second series was a school gym with just fluorescent tubes (bleh).

Are you familiar at all using a 10D? That could be quite a bit to learn in a day.

[jeffherald]

pcasciola,

I really appreciate you posting the pics from the school gym. I have tried many times to get good shot of my kids playing in gyms with similar lighting without much success. This proves to me it can be done.

Thanks, and well done.

[pcasciola]

Thanks Jeff.

And, yes, it definitely can be done, especially with your 20D because it has good high ISO performance. Combine that with the 85/1.8 and you can still manage 1/250th in pretty poorly lit gyms. The best part is, the 85/1.8 is only about $325, and makes a good portrait lens too.

[Feihung08]

I don't think there's such a thing as a 28-135 2.8 IS, but there is a 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS. But, either way, I think the 70-200/2.8L will be all you need, and with those lights you are talking about, you might actually be able to get away with a lower ISO and or stop it down a little. It sounds like the lighting are either metal halides or sodium vapor if they take a while to turn on. The arena I shot the first series I'm pretty sure were metal halides which let off a nice bright white light, but the second series was a school gym with just fluorescent tubes (bleh).

Are you familiar at all using a 10D? That could be quite a bit to learn in a day.
Yeah, I thought that sounded funny but it's been a few months since I did some serious research into lenses. But I was thinking the 70-200/2.8L would be my first choice to try as well. I hope those lights work well.....you've given me some confidence so I thank you!

And I should be alright with the 10D. I've had an A2E film SLR for about 4 years and have had my G5 for a little over a year and have NEVER used the "auto" function! I'll probably just play around with the AV and TV modes only. Any other settings suggestions?? And manual or auto focus??

[J Rabin]

You've got the right lens. Set up 10D:
1. Bring a grey card and do a custom white-balance. Those sodium and gas vapor lights can do ghastly things to picture color.
2. Set 10D to only use center focus point.
3. Set 10D to AI Servo focus. When you're shooting, acquire the player in the center of frame first, even if they move.
4. Set 10D for continuous shooting mode.
5. Set 10D for manual exposure and do some test shots at edge of rink before game, maybe just using palm. You don't want the metering fooled by ice, outfits, etc.
6. Try ISO 800 or 1600 and see what max shutter speed you can achieve. Shooting wide open at f/2.8 or f/4 if you have light, maybe Tv 250 if you can. As others have noted a sharp grainy photo is better than a smooth blurry one.
7. Practice panning. Practice. Practice. It's harder than it appears. Also, with eye to viewfinder, anticipate what part of action you want, like in front of goal, etc., and "wait" there.
8. Have fun.
J

[Hellashot]

As others have noted a sharp grainy photo is better than a smooth blurry one.

I think a "sharp" "grainy" photo is an oxymoron. By definition grainy cannot be sharp, it's grainy! Maybe it should be put "in focus" instead of "sharp" .

[Feihung08]

You've got the right lens. Set up 10D:
1. Bring a grey card and do a custom white-balance. Those sodium and gas vapor lights can do ghastly things to picture color.
2. Set 10D to only use center focus point.
3. Set 10D to AI Servo focus. When you're shooting, acquire the player in the center of frame first, even if they move.
4. Set 10D for continuous shooting mode.
5. Set 10D for manual exposure and do some test shots at edge of rink before game, maybe just using palm. You don't want the metering fooled by ice, outfits, etc.
6. Try ISO 800 or 1600 and see what max shutter speed you can achieve. Shooting wide open at f/2.8 or f/4 if you have light, maybe Tv 250 if you can. As others have noted a sharp grainy photo is better than a smooth blurry one.
7. Practice panning. Practice. Practice. It's harder than it appears. Also, with eye to viewfinder, anticipate what part of action you want, like in front of goal, etc., and "wait" there.
8. Have fun.
-I will for sure do #8!!
-And I'll hope to get the rest right! I'm downloading the 10D manual now so I know how to switch all that stuff on ahead of time. The 'panning' thing will definitely take practice like you said! I tried it once with my super slow G5 trying to get shots of my nephews on a swing. Not so easy as I thought it would be!
-And with #5, should I lock in my exposure settings at that point and only worry about composing and panning after that?? Is that what you meant?
-And should I shoot in RAW??
-And how fast do you think I'll be able to shoot? I envision trying to get some shots of one guy shooting the puck and getting at least 3 frames of his one shot. Think that will be possible?

Thanks for all the awesome help btw!

[pcasciola]

I would recommend shooting RAW if you have enough memory. You will get roughly 150 shots out of every gig of memory with a 10D. That way, you don't even have to worry about custom white balance. You will have more post processing work to do then, but that will be your best chance to correct for exposure and white balance after the fact.

[Feihung08]

I would recommend shooting RAW if you have enough memory. You will get roughly 150 shots out of every gig of memory with a 10D. That way, you don't even have to worry about custom white balance. You will have more post processing work to do then, but that will be your best chance to correct for exposure and white balance after the fact.
Ok, that's a good idea. I have a 1gb card and 150 is about all I'll get to shoot anyway.

What about the focusing. Just use the "auto"??
It's gotta be better/faster than my G5!!

[pcasciola]

What about the focusing. Just use the "auto"?? I would use auto focus, AI Servo, center focus point only, and keep your subject in the center point. AI Servo claims to be able to keep track of the subject even if it moves to another focus point, but indoors I haven't had much luck with that.

Oh, and the focus speed on the 70-200/2.8L is really fast. I think you'll be impressed.

[Feihung08]

I would use auto focus, AI Servo, center focus point only, and keep your subject in the center point. AI Servo claims to be able to keep track of the subject even if it moves to another focus point, but indoors I haven't had much luck with that.

Oh, and the focus speed on the 70-200/2.8L is really fast. I think you'll be impressed.
Excellent!
I'll let ya know when I get some posted!
Thanks again!

[TimB]

Hello everyone, long time reader, first time poster!

Finally a subject I can reply on. I've been shooting a little indoor roller hockey when I'm not playing it. From what I'm figuring out your going to need to shoot at least f/2.8 or larger. With my 50mm f/1.8, I'm shooting mostly at 1/200s, f/2 at 400 iso, and get decent shots. I just received my first L lens yesterday in the mail (thanks B&H), only a few hours before a game. With the 20-70 f/2.8L I'm shooting at 1/200s, f/2.8 at 800 iso. Like pcasciola said, you may not have luck with the ai servo mode. I'm using center focus, 1-shot af, Av mode, AWB and no flash. The ai servo mode had a real hard time staying on target. You can check out my EE gallery with all exif included to get some ideas of what I did. I'm no pro, but I'm having fun learning! I play for the Carolina Box Turtles so all of those photos were taking by my soon to be wife. The rest were taking by me. Her shots were through the glass, which I highly stress you stay away from. Way to many reflections. Here are a few pics. Larger ones can be found here (http://www.boltonphotography.com/gallery/).


1. 50mm f/1.8 lens @ 1/200s, f/2, iso 400
http://www.boltonphotography.com/gallery/photos/normal/IMG_1427a.jpg

2. 20-70mm f/2.8L lens @ 1/160s, f/2.8, 800iso
http://www.boltonphotography.com/gallery/photos/normal/IMG_1762.jpg

Good luck, and be sure to post some pictures!

Tim

[Feihung08]

Well first off Timmy I'm honored that my little thread was inspiration enough for you to come on in! Welcome!

Second of all, only 3 'changers' on the bench?!?! Looks like one of our games! Damn teammates think they have better things to do rather come to the games!

Thirdly, thanks for chiming in with the tips! Your shots are great and really I can only hope to have mine come out half as clear as yours! Did you do much post-processing?? Boost the Levels at all? And I noticed there's a few that look like you might have hit with with the 'flash'?? What do you think of those shots?

[TimB]

Cropped, resized and maybe a little sharpening on a few. I only used the flash on a few pictures in the 4/10/05 gallery. The flash worked well except on players with reflective gear. We are not allowed to use a flash during games so no luck there.

Only been using the 20D for a few months now, I'm still getting the hang of it. I couldn't stand the shutter lag of my point & shoot so I was forced to upgrade :) . Don't you hate it when that happens?

We have 8 skaters plus a goalie so we normally have 4 on the bench. And your exactly right. You would think everyone would show up for the games. Even worse, we have practice every Sunday and only half the team shows up for that. Oh well, we won tonight's game 11-0 so we must be doing something right.

[pcasciola]

Looking good Tim. And welcome to the forums. I'm looking forward to seeing some more of your roller hockey shots over in the Sports forum.

[J Rabin]

Feihung.
One last opinion. Your preference.
I find more and more that I DO NOT USE CENTER POINT ONLY when shooting sports. I activate all the points, but always make sure I ACQUIRE THE SUBJECT IN CENTER FOCUS POINT FIRST.
When you activate the center point only, you get Servo Focus, but not real tracking, because the camera does not "hand off" the subject to the adjacent focus points when the subject moves out of center of frame. Using the center only is more like a... Servo panning mode for want of better description.

If you activate ALL the points, but make sure YOU FIRST ACQUIRE THE SUBJECT IN CENTER, because that's the most accurate sensitive focus point with an f/2.8 lens, the camera is more likely to track focus. I get more keepers. I shoot at the Trexlertown PA velodrome, and it works better. But, I try and position myself to not have one competitor cross over another when I'm trying to nail a shot.

AGAINST using all the points are people who shoot soccer (football), etc. What they find with all points activated is that a different player or action crosses into the focus area and diverts the 10D/20D focus system off the intended subject. (1 series cameras have settings to prevent this.) Go out to events, try it both ways, and see what works for you before your big roller hockey event.
J.

[sodakred]

Another great thread. I'm a hockey dad constantly hunting the elusive great hockey shots. I'm having pretty good luck with the 70-200 2.8L. As many have said before, the 2.8 aperture is a minimum speed for any type of community arena or gym.

I generally use AI Servo and center focus. I also have been more pleased with the results I get when using "partial" metering. One other thing that helps is to push the exposure up on stop to get better exposure on the uniforms and faces compared to the massive amounts of white in the background (boards and ice). If necessary, you can bump up the ISO to accomplish the shutter speed necessary to stop the action (I like 1/500 if possible). Raw is best for white balance, but I don't hesitate to use large JPG if I'm going to be slamming through a lot of shots (I don't do any commercial work...simply for my own enjoyment and an occassional gift to the parent of a teamate)

I think Drisley is a "god", with the results he puts out. Seriously craving that 135 f/2.0.

[Feihung08]

We are not allowed to use a flash during games so no luck there.That's what I started thinking about too. I don't want to be popping the flash in my players eyes while they're out there! Might be a tad disrupting!

Only been using the 20D for a few months now, I'm still getting the hang of it. I couldn't stand the shutter lag of my point & shoot so I was forced to upgrade
That's what's totally driving me nutts right now! I'm DYING to get a 20D but keep running into set back after set back! And I just refuse to throw it on my credit card! :mad:

Oh well, we won tonight's game 11-0 so we must be doing something right.Yeah, I guess so! And as much as we usually complain about people not showing up.......we almost always play great in those games!

[Hellashot]

Those posted images look a bit dark. Need to be brightened a bit.

[Feihung08]

Feihung.
One last opinion. Your preference.
I find more and more that I DO NOT USE CENTER POINT ONLY when shooting sports. I activate all the points, but always make sure I ACQUIRE THE SUBJECT IN CENTER FOCUS POINT FIRST.
Now that does make sense J., but it sounds like others didn't have the same luck as you did using all the active focus points instead of just the center point. But you also say <<< AGAINST using all the points are people who shoot soccer (football)>>> which leads me to think that I might want to stay away from it too with hockey. First off, they are moving a heck of a lot faster than soccer players and secondly guys are crossing in front of each other continuously.

[Feihung08]

Those posted images look a bit dark. Need to be brightened a bit.
Are you talking about TimB's shots?? Maybe a little 'levels' adjustment?

[RTMiller]

Those posted images look a bit dark. Need to be brightened a bit.
Agree. Looks like you nailed the White Balance though.

[Feihung08]

Another great thread. I'm a hockey dad constantly hunting the elusive great hockey shots. I'm having pretty good luck with the 70-200 2.8L. As many have said before, the 2.8 aperture is a minimum speed for any type of community arena or gym.Welcome in Sodakred! And thanks for verifying the lens to use! You and the other guys are making this way to easy for me! ;)

I generally use AI Servo and center focus. I also have been more pleased with the results I get when using "partial" metering. One other thing that helps is to push the exposure up on stopOk, so your saying the AI Servo + Center Focus is the way to go. This seems to be the only debate (for lack of a better term) on this so far. But luckily hockey is split into 3 periods. So I can switch in between them to really test this out.
And who is Drisley?? A member here??

[Feihung08]

Agree. Looks like you nailed the White Balance though.
If you're talking about TimB's pics, that's funny because I believe he actually used Auto WB!

[pcasciola]

If they are using metal halide bulbs, which are becoming more and more common I think, there is not much white balance adjustment needed like with the sodium vapor (streetlamp yellow) lights. The first set I posted from the Meadowland's area were all shot in RAW, with very little WB adjustment. I believe the lights in Giants and Yankee stadiums are all metal halide as well, but I'm not 100% sure on that.

[TimB]

If you're talking about TimB's pics, that's funny because I believe he actually used Auto WB!
Yes these were Auto WB. :D


Those posted images look a bit dark. Need to be brightened a bit.
Better?
http://www.boltonphotography.com/gallery/photos/normal/IMG_1762a.jpg

[Feihung08]

Yeah, now those yellows really 'pop'! Looks good! Although it did seem to eat up the "blue" sport court surface, but that's totally forgivable in my opinion. A fair trade off.

[sodakred]

Drisley is a member who contributes pretty frequently. He shoots a lot of hockey with the Canon 135mm f/2.0 and gets nice results. If you do a search for his name you can probably find some of his hockey shot postings.

[Feihung08]

Ok, took the shots at the rink last night. I didn't have time to take any of my team during the game so I took some random shots of other teams and then my team (The Hochs...which is a play on Hawk, but our fearless leaders last name is Hoch) during warm ups.

I used the 10D + 70 - 300mm 2.8L lens at ISO800. But next time I might bump up to 1600 because I got a lot of motion blur down at rink level.

http://DicksDwelling.smugmug.com/photos/22359681-S.jpg

http://DicksDwelling.smugmug.com/photos/22360509-S.jpg

http://DicksDwelling.smugmug.com/photos/22360523-S.jpg

See the rest here.......... (http://DicksDwelling.smugmug.com/gallery/539853/1/22360509)

For post processing I added lots of 'levels' (from RAW) and 'saturation' boosts. For some with more dramatic 'noise' I used Noiseware to smooth them out.

What I learned = Need more light!! And maybe a bump in ISO?? Composing was harder than I thought....A) Because that lens is HUGE, and B) because of the 'center point' focusing. I was trying to focus on a guy in the center and then recompose for effect. I see that's not totally feasible and I like TimB's portrait shots better. Plus I didn't use the AI Servo mode which I would like to try next time.
Any other hints or hits you can give me??