Buying a 20D - Concerns

[Spiffae]

Hi Everyone, this is my first post here.

I'm about to buy a DSLR, and for a while I was deciding between a 350D and a 20D, but five minutes in a camera store has sold me on the 20D. The feel of the Rebel just seemed cheap and flimsy compared to the 20D. I'm getting ready to buy, but I've got a couple concerns.

1. Banding - I'm having trouble understanding exactly what the banding is - Does it only happen with RAW images, or is it a result of any image underexposed on the 20D. I'm using Adobe Photoshop CS2, and I've heard good things about the de-banding using the new Adobe Camera Raw. I've seen the sample images, and everyone talks about the RAW processing they are using. If you use JPEG, do you get banding? Is this something that could be fixed in firmware upgrades?

2. Lockups - Are these slowly getting weeded out, or are they hardware issues that I'll be dealing with for years to come?

3. I read a review on B&H's website that sounds like a conspiracy theory, but still, it got me thinking. Your thoughts?
This camera has the potential of being a great camera. All
good comments this body has received are true. I agree with
them.
But with all the bells and whistles that come with this
body, they are of no use since you cannot get properly
focused photos. I'm a pro, and I know not to use the
camera's autofocus selection feature. I do use the
autofocus, but manually select my focus points. This
camera, along with the 10D, which I traded up from, has a
serious focusing issue. Canon's STORY about the images being
soft due to magnification is just that. A STORY. If you don't
know what I'm talking about, e-mail canon support with a
comment regarding out of focus images, and you'll get this
long form letter. And then you'll know what I'm talking about.
If what canon says is true, regarding the magnification,
then the entire image would be soft. But that's not true,
because when you look at the entire image, you will see that
either the portion in front of your focusing point, or
behind it, depending which problem your camera is suffering
from, you will see that there IS a point that is sharp.
Unfortunately, it is not the point which you have focused
on. Check your photos and you'll see that you too probably
have that problem.
So regardless of what great features this camera has, one of
the most important requirements of a good photograph is for
it to be in focus. At least the part that needs to be.
This body does NOT deliver in this department.
The last job I did a few days ago, over 40% of the photos
were totally unusable. The rest were, at best, marginal.
And to think that I upgraded from the 10D to get away from
that problem only to find it again in the 20D.
Canon doesn't admit to any problems. Read the message
boards out there, and you'll see that this is not an
isolated incident.
It's time for Canon to suck it up and do good about this.
This is not something that the photographer can compensate
for, such as exposure. The camera gives you the green
light for proper focus when in reality it's no where near it.
read it for yourself here (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=reviews&A=details&Q=&sku=348299&is=REG&si=rev&rb=20).

What do you think? Should I go for it?

[Andy_T]

Quite simple - my take after half a year with the camera:

1) only an issue if you underexpose your high ISO photos. Correctly expose your pictures, and you have no problems.

2) Another non-issue. Lock-ups happen with all kinds of electronic products, but they occured more often with the first firmware (which has been upgraded)... and should a lock-up really occur (very seldom now), so what ... you turn off your camera and turn it on again. 2 seconds. No big deal. Happened to me once or twice so far.

3) Utter BS. One of the whiners who like to clog the internet with their comments to show how oh-so-superior-and-demanding they are.

Take a look at the tons of great photos instead that users all around the world are getting with this camera.

And YES, you should go with the camera.
For me, it is all I ever wanted and more :D
Get some nice lenses as well.

Oh yes, and WELCOME TO THE FORUM :D
Stay here ... it is a lot of fun, great information and costs nothing
(except the thousands of $$ we will lead you to spend on camera equipment :wink: )

Best regards,
Andy

[Marshall]

Had the 20d since November, no lock-ups, no trouble focusing or getting sharp pics with my Tamron 28-75.Always use the centre focus point only. Do not really understand what you mean by banding, certainly no problems shooting JPEGS. This camera covers my every need,go for it.

[Streetshooter]

I agree with andy.......the camera is great....think about it this way...it's true...you may underexpose on occaision.....but with alittle patience in Photoshop...not really a big issue....if it happened on a film camera...well the whole roll would be effected by your decision on processing....with digital..it's just the single image....
lockups...guess I'm lucky...never had one......
focusing..that guy does not understand the camera....if you manually select your focus point...ok...but you have to hold the shutter release down to hold the focus, then move to frame your image and release.....what's so difficult with that....that guy is just farting out his mouth...

the 20D is a great camera...I moved to it from Leica's and do not regret the move at all....enjoy the board.....oh...check out all the great images around here...that alone speaks for the camera....and digital images....relax and enjoy.......don

www.streetshooter.us (http://www.streetshooter.us)

[tim]

1) I've never seen any banding, whether underexposed or properly exposed.
2) I've had one in 4 months of use, while using a Tamron 28-75 lens. I dropped the battery out, put it back in, 5 seconds after it stopped it was going again.
3) What Andy said - be careful who you believe on the net. Maybe he was unlucky enough to have a camera or lens that needs calibrating. When I use a calibrated lens it focuses dead on. My 50mm lenses are having focus issues at the moment, but my Tamron 28-75, Canon 100mm macro, and Canon 70-200 F2.8 IS lenses are dead on.

Hope that helps, and welcome to POTN :)

[Andy_T]

Don,

I had a look at your galleries.
I like your style :D

Best regards,
Andy

[Maureen Souza]

I have had my 20D for 3 months and it did take a little practice to get my focus points fugured out. I have done two weddings, a pregnancy and newborn shoot in the last few weeks with excellent outcomes and very happy recipients of the photographs. That guy sounds like he doesn't have the hang of the instrument yet.

[AXENA]

There is definitely a learning curve with the 20D. I posted a similar problem with focusing. However, in the past few days, that issue was eliminated using the center focus only, and by reading this forum and taking other pro's advice. Love the 20D, will never go back to the "N" word, won't even consider Olymp, or others. Still have my Pentax K1000 though.... just for nostalgic reasons. Try the cam out for yourself at a photo shop.... that is the only way you will know for sure if you like it. It is an investment, so choose wisely. I think you'll be happy with it, but what the h*ll do I know? :-)

[JZaun]

The 20 D is a whole lot of camera with many features. But its still a camera and it needs photographer skill to perform correctly. Many times people purchase a camera and use poor tecnique and blame it on the camera when its not. I thought I had a focus issue with my 20 and did a few Adkins focus test and proved beyond a doubt it was all "Operator Error" !! :) ME! :) Rarely under certain exsposure and light conditions you may see banding but generally its a non issue. Just like film there are bad exsposures taken. You will not go wrong with the 20D. Yep there are and have been bad ones but overall its a fantastic camera.

JZ

[awp]

I read the same review, with the B&H return policy I had nothing to lose, so I purchased it. I love it! Perhaps my vision is not as good as the reviewer. My clients must have a vision impairment also, they love the prints.

[sugar_babygirli]

Has it occured to anyone that maybe it's the crappy kit lens that has the problems and NOT the camera? I was getting so-so shots myself (or rather so-so QUALITY...nothing wrong with the actual shots ;) ) with the kit lens until my 85mm 1.8 and Tamron 28-75mm arrived! Now, 99% of the shots turn out great!

I do understand if a person gets a bad copy of the camera, but for me, new glass fixed the problem of softness and out of focus objects (that I wanted in focus!)

[blue_max]

Well Spiffae, if you find buying this camera difficult, wait til you want to buy some lenses!

In reality, this is widely acknowledged as the best camera in it's price bracket. It is widely used on this forum by pros as well as enthusiasts. Many of us are using it's predecessor to good effect.

You will love it if you give it time to show its quality. Remember it's digital, so practice to your hearts content until you become it's master. You will not be disappointed.

Graham

[robertwgross]

It's not obvious where that quote came from, but it sure sounds like somebody who was not having a good day. Some people are like that. There might be ten users saying that it is a great camera for one user who does not like it. Also, as was stated, they ought to try to sort out a camera problem from a lens problem from a user problem.

Banding is often called posterization. Suppose that you had a white wall, dimly lit from a single light source in one corner. Now you shoot the photo of the wall. What are you going to see? If this were a perfect camera, you would see a perfectly smooth transition from bright light at one corner and fading gradually to darkness at the opposite corner. However, there is quantization of the light levels going on. The light levels of the finished photo are actually changing in little steps. Hopefully, those steps are so small and so gradual that you don't see them. However, you might begin to see concentric light bands. If the finished image had its light levels in two bits or three bits, you would see it badly. By the time you get to JPEG, which is eight bits, you should not see it much. By the time you get to RAW, which is 12-bits, you should not see it at all.

You can get this further complicated if you are shooting in one color space and then doing a poor conversion to another color space in the computer. Sometimes those subtle light levels can get mangled in the conversion or the viewing.

You really want to be shooting RAW!

---Bob Gross---

[lostdoggy]

It's not obvious where that quote came from, but it sure sounds like somebody who was not having a good day. Some people are like that. There might be ten users saying that it is a great camera for one user who does not like it. Also, as was stated, they ought to try to sort out a camera problem from a lens problem from a user problem.

Banding is often called posterization. Suppose that you had a white wall, dimly lit from a single light source in one corner. Now you shoot the photo of the wall. What are you going to see? If this were a perfect camera, you would see a perfectly smooth transition from bright light at one corner and fading gradually to darkness at the opposite corner. However, there is quantization of the light levels going on. The light levels of the finished photo are actually changing in little steps. Hopefully, those steps are so small and so gradual that you don't see them. However, you might begin to see concentric light bands. If the finished image had its light levels in two bits or three bits, you would see it badly. By the time you get to JPEG, which is eight bits, you should not see it much. By the time you get to RAW, which is 12-bits, you should not see it at all.

You can get this further complicated if you are shooting in one color space and then doing a poor conversion to another color space in the computer. Sometimes those subtle light levels can get mangled in the conversion or the viewing.

You really want to be shooting RAW!

---Bob Gross---

Can I get that again. My GED don't cover so many letters.

Just Kinding. Well Said!!!

[Jon]

I would suspect the "banding" referred to was this from Firmware 1.1.0The issue with horizontal line noise appearing in shots taken at high ISO settings (ISO800, ISO1600, etc.) while using the internal flash has been fixed..