Model Mayhem TF* Image Rights and Sales

[TooManyHobbies]

I do strictly TF* avoiding paid work, but I do strictly state that the images I give for TF* are for personal or portfolio use not for sales. I keep that right for myself.

I now have a newby model who want to sell images at a car show. The show pays her travel expenses but nothing else, allowing the models to sell promotional materials to make $. She wants about 50 prints of two images cheap enough for her to sell and make some money. I print at home but only fine art quality. It's cheaper for me to use Costco for small or cheap paper.

If I use Costco, 8x10s are about $1.50.

Any experience with this kind of thing and what you would charge? Apparently other models have trading cards, 8x10s, calendars, and posters. I hear the price is about $5 (card) to $35 (poster).

[Mark1]

I would not hesitate with the Costco we hever here. I have used them in emergencies several times. They do great.

But if it costs you 1.50 each I would make $3 an absolute minimum. When making a price, keep in mind she may be selling them for $10 or more.

Personally I would cut a deal with her.... If she keeps comming back for new shots, then I would sell them at a good price. If she makes it and becomes a hit at the shows. She will need a lot more than 100 prints. She will probably want to keep the shots current if she cuts her hair, or changes the style. So she comes back to you for new shots, and has to buy more prints. I would not do a full session with her each time. Keep 3-4 shots in mind at all times as you never know when she will be back. And shoot only what you need each time. If she does not make it, you are not out anything.

In her case I would definatley try to make her happy enough to keep comming back. If that means you make less on each print, that is fine, as you will make it up in volume. And, there may be other girls working the shows with her. If you are cheaper than who they are useing, they may start to come to you. So now you have 2 or 3 more girls to sell to. And if you can offer the whole line, from the cards to posters, this will be easy side money.

[TooManyHobbies]

Thanks

[dsmPhotoCompany]

My 8x10 prints are $50, but I'm not printing them at Costco.

And if I knew someone was going to turn around and sell 'em, the price would likely double. I'd give a bulk discount on a larger order of the same print, but no way would I give my work away like that nor suggest you do it.

[Dennis_Hammer]

You can get trading cards fairly cheap at Exposuremanager

http://www.exposuremanager.com/aff/hammerphotos

They are a dozen for $12.00 use the link below to get a free trial and a discount if you decide to sign up.

[Mark1]

My 8x10 prints are $50, but I'm not printing them at Costco.
And if I knew someone was going to turn around and sell 'em, the price would likely double. I'd give a bulk discount on a larger order of the same print, but no way would I give my work away like that nor suggest you do it.

I am with you 100% if this was a regular customer that all of a sudden is selling prints. However in this case I see it as wholesale side work. You know up front what is going on and treat it as such. You could probably do a 15 minute shoot for 2 or 3 images, minimal PP and send them out the door. And on a returning basis, in the long run, make a lot more money. I highly doubt she will make the first purchase, no less return for more if she was going to have to pay $50 or $100 for each print.

For jobs like this it is either make a little of something or zero of nothing. Some would prefer to make nothing. Others would be glad for the easy money.

[dsmPhotoCompany]

That's a huge assumption to take that by giving away your work, she comes back. And even if she does, you just have to give it away again. Increase your rates and she gets mad, then goes elsewhere.

What if I went to Target looking for a steal deal, wanted some tshirts I would autograph or something and then resell. Think they would just bend over for me and lose money on it? Nope.

What is your time worth? You are giving up that time you could spend with your family, friends, etc. If that time has no value, fine. I'm guessing that's not the case though. If you truely have a 15 minute shoot and look at it as only 15 mintues of time on the project, you've vastly underestimated. Planning, setup and shoot time is much more than that. And then there is the time to proof, retouch, print, deliver, etc.

I'm all for giving worthy models discounts, but phitographers would be much better off if they treated models like clients (which is what they are almost 100% of the time) instead of letting them dictate the terms and rates.

[Mark1]

I see your points and agree. However....

That's a huge assumption to take that by giving away your work, she comes back. And even if she does, you just have to give it away again. Increase your rates and she gets mad, then goes elsewhere.

She will be back. 100 prints will last her 1 show. She will have to get more just to go to the second. The alternative is charge full price, and lose the job altogether... Your not giving it away. But your not paying the rent either.

What if I went to Target looking for a steal deal, wanted some tshirts I would autograph or something and then resell. Think they would just bend over for me and lose money on it? Nope.

This shows you don't know how to do it right by buying the supplies at retail. However, Target may not make a deal. But the store equivalent of a 1 man studio would. I would have never even considered Target. I would go straight to a wholesaler. $3 each vs $13.

What is your time worth? You are giving up that time you could spend with your family, friends, etc. If that time has no value, fine. I'm guessing that's not the case though. If you truely have a 15 minute shoot and look at it as only 15 mintues of time on the project, you've vastly underestimated. Planning, setup and shoot time is much more than that. And then there is the time to proof, retouch, print, deliver, etc.

Agree again, but the prints they sell at shows are usually head shots over white. Not full blown shoots, no location, minimal MU/hair. Think 8X10 glossy actor headshots. When they are excerpts from "real" shoots they are underwritten by the company who commissioned the shoot. Think Hawaiian Tropic, They call for a shoot, then later the models selling alternate take prints are actually advertising for HT. But it is all worked out in the licencing ahead of time. If this model is looking for this kind "real" shoots. Then she is a regular customer and defaults back to such pricing. Possibly with a volume discount. But a quick head shot, or even half body, over white, instead of surfing the internet, and make $500.....


I'm all for giving worthy models discounts, but phitographers would be much better off if they treated models like clients (which is what they are almost 100% of the time) instead of letting them dictate the terms and rates.

Again I agree. But this is a case that falls outside that "almost 100%". If he was to price her like a regular client (100 prints= $5000) He would lose the job all together. So it comes down to getting a bit of some, or none of none.

[dsmPhotoCompany]

How do you know she returns? You don't. As a business person, you must look at each job separately and don't count on people coming back for more prints or additional sessions. The only way you can even remotely count on it, is if a contract was derived detailing such. I doubt that took place here. She has no obligation to return for reprints. Even IF she did, selling an 8x10 for $3 greatly devalues it.

If she wants wholesale photography, send her to a box shop like Target, Wal-Mart, etc.

Relating actor headshots to what is being done here is a giant stretch.

And when I mentioned time involved in session, I didn't even touch on the education a photographer has been through in order to get that shot. Or the equipment wear and tear. And as noted, rent. I gather no session fee was charged here. So if grossing $1.50 per 8x10 covers ALL the things I mentioned here and my previous post, that would be the most efficiently operated photography business, ever.

Trust me, sometimes "losing" the job is the best thing ever. Otherwise you'll be known as the guy doing free sessions and selling $3 prints. You'll be busy, no doubt. But you won't have time to do anything but shoot, therefore your quality will suffer.

[Mark1]

Again all great points. But we are not talking about running a buisness this way. Or trying to survive off a single customer. This is only doing a single job for a single person. If she does not come back... no big deal, I could not care less. At least someone made some money off of it. Better than making nothing. No different than doing pro-bono for a charity. Does that mean all of your jobs now have to be free? No. Not even other jobs for the same charity. But she will be back! Everybody else wants to charge $50 each :)

$3 was a suggestion as a rock bottom price, not a suggested offering. But keep in mind they are sold at about $10 each. So $50 each from the photographer will not work to well. And it does not devalue it, it is the same item for sale, but in a totally different manner. I am by no means suggesting a price change on the menu board. I am only suggesting "selling out the side door". This is a local saying. An example of it would be Lowes. The retail customer goes in the front door and pays retail. A contractor goes in the side door and pays whosale. The retail customer does not know nor care what the contractor is paying. Some know it is cheaper, but they also know they simply cant get that price because they do not buy in the same volume. (however Loews makes more money on the contractor side of the buisness) Are the 2X4's devalued in any manner? What about the washing machines? Its just 2 prices for the same thing. Only difference is the volume in which they are purchased/sold.

Actualy they are the exact same thing as actor headshots when they are as new as implied by the OP. Atleast the ones I have seen. When I was in photo school we used to collect them and critique them in class. But back then they were $3. The purpose may be different, but the product was the same.... 8X10 glossy, usually B&W, head shot, or half body shot on white seamless. Sometimes in a "cute" pose. Same thing.


Good point about the session fee!!! I didnt mention it, but assumed there was one. Even thought the OP stated "mostley TF*". This kind of deal is not to be done without a session fee at each sitting!

Valid points onthe education and equipment. But every job does not has to pay enough to pay off your student loan/CC bills. As nice as that would be.

I think we are simply see it it from different sides. You as more of a regular job in a retail mode. And applying the proper buisness thought to it might i mention. I see it as a wholesale job on the side. And it takes some sideways thinking at times. And you are right, you have to know when to say no, as much as when to really go after a job.

[dsmPhotoCompany]

Ugh.

Do something like this once, she'll tell everyone and the others come calling for the same deal. Try to say "well, I just did it for her and here are my rates"...good luck.

I do not see the relationship between wholesale and professional photography. Nor do I see the need to sell work for bottom dollar prices just because someone else is going to turn around and sell it again, making a profit themselves. Plus, that person is supposedly going to sell this thing for $10. Bought it for $3. Her margin is $7. Photographer's is $1.50? Bad business.

And if a photography business is not paying for the overhead and expenses, it's not a successful business. And why a photographer would do something like this when they could easily do a full paying client in place of this is beyond me. It's not a charity case as, she's going to profit off it.

I don't say these things just at random, I say 'em from experience. While I never had my 8x10 at anything close to $3, I did sell prints for rather cheap because I thought that's what I had to do in order to start my business and get people in the door. Wrong.

This is not a business move or wholesale, period. It's cutting someone one helluva fantastic, amazing deal who is going to turn around and make a profit on the photographer losing money.

I see no point in going into it further. Have a good one!

[TooManyHobbies]

I have an opinion, but I'm staying out of this one.

[johngalt_ny]

I'm a total hobbyist and thus have ZERO to offer you on your basic question.

However, let me offer you some experience from a different profession. Some years ago, I actually experienced an increase in business when I raised our firm's hourly rates. That's not why I did it and , frankly, it surprised me. Apparently, the psychology of it was "He charges more so he must be a better (insert profession here)".

Years later I'm still surprised but it taught me a valuable business lesson to never undersell my ability and advice.

Just a thought for the OP.

[Mark1]

It happens all the time. Its known as "precieved value". I have been witness to someone putting the new guy who was undercutting him out of buisness by raising his prices. This was in another industry, but He raised his price significantly. The result was.... "If you want something nice....Do you go to Sack's 5th...or Dollar Tree?"

[Moppie]

I have an opinion, but I'm staying out of this one.

Its your thread :cool:


If this girl is going to sell 100 cards at each show for $10 each, then you sell her 100 photos for $5 each. Do the printing to retain the quality and control and give her the finished product.

Thats an easy $500 for an hours work.
If you can wrangle a $50-$100 sitting fee out of her even better.

Of course some people here think you should just sell her one photo for $50.

I know what I would rather do. :cool:

[Mark1]

That was my point exactly. You end up making more in volume with a low price than you do selling a few at a high price. The only difference to the photographer is you type 2 extra zeros in the whcc order form. It is totally possible, ethical, moral, whatever, to sell retail and wholesale from the same store front. It happens all the time in a lot of industries. Why limit yourself to one revenue stream, especially if you can open a second or third with no investment?

An example from my world... I do mainly product work. I really only do portraits when asked by the clients, friends, family. However, after seeing what some hack was doing to the portraits at the holiday party for my wifes job. I jumped in and submitted a bid. Now I do all the party photography. CAUTION, Sit down!!! I only get $6.50 per portrait!!!! (5X7) Heart attack city!!!! But wait. I can turn out 200 in a but under 2 hours at an event I will be attending anyway. I could have said "Im not doing that, My work is worth more than that" Or I can go to a nice dinner and walk away with $1300. When they ask about doing a full session or even reprints of the event image, I give the full retail price. A bonus on the side for cutting the price and selling wholesale to the company. And have clients that would have never called me if I had not been there.

Wholesale and retail take an entirely different way of thinking. What works for one mostly will not work for the other. But the main difference is in retail you have to push the price. In wholesale you have to push the volume.

[DwightMcCann]

This is such a huge topic with so many parameters as to boggle the mind. I sympathize with the guys who feel they are artists and whose pricing reflects their art as well as those who view the bottom line return. I love Mark's answer right above this. But I'm also sympathetic to the guy who would do it for free to get exposure. The only suspect answer for me is the one that's 'hard line ... if you don't think like me you're wrong!' I have done events for free because I wanted to ... I feel no obligation to protect someone else's "right" to charge by charging what they think I ought to charge.

Mark, I really like your take on printing at events. Can you elaborate on equipment, costs, style of events/parties, setup to take pictures? Do you have a printer recommendation? What sort of PP do you do? Do you walk around and shoot candids or do you setup a backdrop with lighting? I am currently sitting on some cash and getting into this type of event sounds compelling. If you don't want to do it here, email me at Dwight@DwightMcCann.com. Thanks!

[Mark1]

No problem telling it here. However I do not print at events. As I stated I am mainly shooting at a product table so a portable printer is a waste of money for me.....However I do have my eye on one.

I mainly got started in doing events for the above reason. After seeing year after year the hack jobs being done, I finally had to step in and take over. The equipment is as simple as it comes, just a 2 umbrella setup. I use a 60 and a 32 inch. I shoot tethered into a laptop so I can reshoot on demand. Minimal PP. I give a week turnaround so I PP as I have time.... (PP when I would be just web surfing in the down time) But it is mainly cutting the shine on the ladies noses, lightening wrinkels, etc..etc. When the prints come in, I hand deliver them to the activities coordinator at the company.

They do not want candids so they all are just portraits. No table shots etc..etc. Very simple job. I keep a backdrop just in case. But I prefer to find a spot at the venue that looks good. I feel it helps keep the memory. A back drop could be shot anywhere. But that fountain or statue..etc...etc will help keep the memory of that night with the picture.

A big plus I have found is shooting tethered. At events where everybody knows each other (company parties etc) You become the center of attention as everybody wants to see everyone elses picture. And the crowd works itself into a frenzy to take pictures. I set the laptop on a table behind me and they can see the previous image pop on to the screen. And they can see their own shot and retake if necessary. As I get paid by the print, you do what ever gets people excited about taking a picture.

With event, just like every other part of photography, you can go simple or overboard. I keep it very simple as I do limited events. But as I expand into it I will add a printer to have them ready by the end of the program.

'm sue I am leaving something out.... Any more questions let me know.

[DwightMcCann]

So, folks order prints on the spot? Does the company/party-thrower pay or the individuals/couples who you shoot?

[Mark1]

Depends on the company. But most pay a per print price. Basically they buy 1 print for every employee who wants one out of the activities budget. I am allowed to do what ever I want with enlargements and re prints. This eliminates 90% of the order nightmare. I know there will be 1 5X7 of everything. Then I only have to keep track of dups and enlargement. That part usually comes after delivery for me anyway. So it is a lot easier.

[Jon Foster]

This is an interesting thread. I could go either way with pricing. I guess it would depend on the circumstances for each situation. I like to use my gut instinct when making decisions like this. But it's a hard call to make and even harder to give advice on.

I know, that didn't help the discussion at all...

Jon.

[aroundlsu]

I give all my TF models a coupon to my exposure
manager gallery that puts the price to very near my cost. They all understand and can clearly see they are getting a special deal.

My business model doesn't put me making money from models. If it did I would have been homeless a long time ago. A model will print your low res preview image at wal mart if she can't get it straight from you. And won't see nor care about the difference in quality.

So either give her a good deal and let her know she is getting a good deal. Or she will go to wal mart and print whatever low res versions she already has.