panorama

[Leorooster]

Hi, I am new to photography. I've seen some very nice panoramas. Can someone tell me what software I need to stitch the pics together to make a panorama, or PS will do the trick as well? Thanks.

[rdenney]

Hi, I am new to photography. I've seen some very nice panoramas. Can someone tell me what software I need to stitch the pics together to make a panorama, or PS will do the trick as well? Thanks.

First, a quick lesson on perspective.

Perspective is the way things look from a given film position. If you make an image with an ultra-wide lens like a 10mm, the field of view will be enormous. But the sensor will be along one plane, and the parts of the subject at sharp angles to that plane will have a strong sense of perspective.

If you make the same image using a swing-lens panoramic camera such as a Noblex, the film will always be "normal to" or at right angles to the centerline of the lens. Thus, everything will be projected onto the film from straight on. To make this happen, a swing-lens panoramic camera positions film in a semi-circle, and the lens rotates around the center of that semicircle, expose the film with a sweeping thin strip. The resulting project is called cylindrical projection.

Thus, there are two approaches to panoramic images. One uses recilinear projection, with an extremely wide-angle lens, to get the whole panorama into a single frame (even if the frame is very long). The Hasselblad X-Pan is such a camera--it uses 35mm film but makes a wide-angle image much wider than the normal 35mm frame.

The other approach uses a cylindrical projection, like a swing-lens panoramic camera such as the Noblex.

To make a series of images by turning the camera around a point, you are doing a little of both. Each image is rectilinear, but when you arrange the images side by side, you get a cylindrical effect.

When you make four or five images by rotating the camera, you have a different perspective with each image, because the film plane was rotated for each shot. Lines that converge into the distance will show an angle where the images meet, because their perspective is different. This is why photostitching software (such as Photostitch that came with my 10D) makes what are for me unsatisfying panoramas. I don't want to see where the images were attached.

So, to make the stitches seamless, you have to warp each image so that it conforms to a cylindrical projection. Then, the the perspective will match at the seams and you won't get those angular mismatches.

I suppose you could do this in Photoshop, but I would recommend getting special software to do it. It's not very expensive and it works quite well. I made the following image from nine vertical-format images made on a 10D using a 20mm lens. I cropped top and bottom and ended up with a file that is 2500 pixels tall and nearly 12,000 pixels wide, supporting a pretty large print. The software I used was Panavue, and it took me about an hour to make including learning how to use Panavue. Panavue will measure the barrel distortion in the lens and use that to correct each image before warping them to the cylindrical projection. Then it will find matching details in adjacent images to stitch them together. When I was done, all I had to fix was the mismatch caused by moving clouds.

The field of view in the image is right at 180 degrees.

http://www.rickdenney.com/images/ranier-ridge-panorama-lores.jpg

Rick "who likes panoramas, but only when they are done well" Denney

[UncleDoug]

If you want to do it right......

Applications:

Pamoram Tools - Get PTGUI(windows) PTMac(Mac) for a GUI for this powerful app.
-or-
RealViz Stitcher - More user friendly right out of the box, can hndle large-multi-row stitch sessions

Equipment:

Panoramic tripod head (universal or specific to your camera) - Absolutely essential if you want to do it right without any paralax error. This head will cause the camera to rotate around the NODAL POINT of your camera so that paralax is not an issue.

Web resources:

Great group for all things Pano.
PanoramaTools group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PanoTools/messages)

This is Apple's QuickTime VR list. Apple, mainly Ken Turkowski, was responsible for pioneering panoramic image stitching and image remaping with QuickTime VR Authoring Studio. It's what I learned on. Youll get through to some of the "Big guys".
Apple's QuickTime VR list (http://www.lists.apple.com/archives/quicktime-vr)


Hope this helps.

[rdenney]

If you want to do it right......


I had a bit of a hot reaction to this, I must admit, after describing in detail and showing an image where none of the extra bits you mention were used. Given that I did it wrong, I'd be grateful if you would point out where in my results the errors show.

I spun my camera around on a plain-old tripod without the special head. Somehow, missing the nodal point by less than an inch (any short lens's nodal point is going to be in the front part of the mirror box or a big forward of there--pretty much where the tripod screw is anyway) didn't cause any difficulty--the images stitched to the pixel once the lens barrel distortion was corrected and the images warped.

I've used PTGui and Pano Tools, but found that PanaVue was dramatically easier to use. If I'm trying to defish a full-frame fisheye, then Pano Tools has more power. But PanaVue only does panoramic images and plain stitching, and not all that other stuff. It does not make 3D or spherical images used by virtual reality software. That's really a whole different application area, though for some reason its fans also use the word "panorama" to described.

I apologize for getting miffed over what seemed to me hard words.

Rick "who prefers a simpler approach if it works" Denney

[PhotosGuy]

PhotoStitch, which comes with the Canon software CD, seems to work OK.

[Leorooster]

Wow, all I can say is that there actually are lots of details/knowledge behind what it looks like a reasonably simply pic. I have to admitt that there are a lot more to learn and to discover in this great area. I also appreciate everyone's postings in response to my basic question.

Rick, Thanks for your detailed explanation on this topic. Your pic is simply stunning and I wish I could have a finish product like yours one day. I just wondering if the theory you described would apply to pics taken vertically instead of horizontally as most people do (i.e., pictures of a tall building)?

UncleDoug, thanks for the info as well as the links you've provided. I certainly will look into this topic a little deeper.

PhotosGuy, does PhotoStitch come with my 20D? It seems that my 20D only comes with EOSViewerUtility and DPP.

Thanks again for all the helps and your time.

[ATucker]

I am not an expert on panos but I do shoot a lot of them, both singlerow and mosaics. Just a few brief points from my experience:

Software:
I have used Photostitch that came with my camera, Autostitch (freeware) and PTAssembler with the free Panotools plugins Autopano and Enblend. PTAssembler is another front-end for Panotools ( along with PTGUI, Hugin and PTMac). Of these three that I have tried, my favorite is PTAssembler. It is the most flexible/powerful and now the latest version has an "Autocreate" feature that makes it almost as easy to use as Autostitch.

Equipment:
In general, the use of a pano-head to rotate the camera around the entrance pupil (nodal point) is only required for panos with a lot of foreground detail. In this case, parallax errors can be relatively large if the camera is not rotated around the entrance pupil. Otherwise, you do not have to use pano-head. I have seen a lot of good handheld panos. That being said, I take and use my homemade panohead with me whenever possible.

Camera setup:
I set the exposure for the brightest highlights in the scene with details I want to retain and shoot in manual, including white balance if you are not shooting raw. I usually shoot raw. Additionally, I usually set the focus to manual and shoot at the same focus for the whole pano. I have also shot a number of panos with photos exposed for highlights and shadows, blending the images after they are stitched.

Like most things, it can be easy to shoot panos or as involved as you want it to be. Consider going to http://www.tawbaware.com (http://www.tawbaware.com/) This is Max Lyon's site (creator of PTAssembler). It has a good, well participated forum, that discusses general technique, equipment, as well as other pano software, not just PTA and Panotools.

Have fun.

Tom

[PhotosGuy]

PhotosGuy, does PhotoStitch come with my 20D? It seems that my 20D only comes with EOSViewerUtility and DPP. I guess it would depend on when you bought it? Look on the CD. You may have it but it just isn't installed?

[UncleDoug]

I had a bit of a hot reaction to this, I must admit, after describing in detail and showing an image where none of the extra bits you mention were used. Given that I did it wrong, I'd be grateful if you would point out where in my results the errors show.

I spun my camera around on a plain-old tripod without the special head. Somehow, missing the nodal point by less than an inch (any short lens's nodal point is going to be in the front part of the mirror box or a big forward of there--pretty much where the tripod screw is anyway) didn't cause any difficulty--the images stitched to the pixel once the lens barrel distortion was corrected and the images warped.

I've used PTGui and Pano Tools, but found that PanaVue was dramatically easier to use. If I'm trying to defish a full-frame fisheye, then Pano Tools has more power. But PanaVue only does panoramic images and plain stitching, and not all that other stuff. It does not make 3D or spherical images used by virtual reality software. That's really a whole different application area, though for some reason its fans also use the word "panorama" to described.

I apologize for getting miffed over what seemed to me hard words.

Rick "who prefers a simpler approach if it works" Denney


Sorry if my tact was a bit off on the lead line. ;)

But I the info I gave is what I found to be the best combination if you want to take pano images to print.
Here is some background on myself as far as panos go, so you know where my opinion comes from.
I've only been producing stitched panos for 4 years, but in that short time I've graduated from a coolpix5000 to 35mm film to DSLR's and now to 6x6 Hasselblad multi-row panos. I started things with QTVRAS and The VRWorx for 360° panoramas and the creation of my first print pieces. I got clued into Helmut Dersch and Panoram Tools next and have been using stitcher and PT for a while now. The largest pano to date I've printed is a 4foot by 14foot panorama of lake Tahoe on canvas and photo paper.

Yes, you can stitch together handheld/no-pano-head panoramas and they will come out great. But if you use a head, ever time, you are not limited to shooting panos that have no foreground elements in them - one less thing to worry about - and the proper alignment of frames is almost guaranteed.

I recommended Pano Tools because it is extremely powerful, can produce multi row panoramas, its blending if stitched images is great, and is available for just about every OS out there. I recommended Stitcher because of all of the previously mentioned attributes of PT are in stitcher(including being available for PC or Mac), it is EXTREMELY easy to use. On top of it all these two apps. can handle exceptionally large file sizes. Which is necessary if you create multi-row panos, use film as your image capture media, or are using any of the modern DSLR's (>8mp).

I have yet to come across a stand-alone stitching program that does not allow for the creation of 360°-QTVR movies in some form. Most panos for print are nothing more than a cylindrical panorama, or a chunk there of, "flattened out"
I have not used PanaVue, but according to their website the software you use seems very easy to use, and does allow for the creation of 360° panoramas - similar to the limits of QTVRAS, no multi-row and 160° vert field of view - max.

When I recommend things I usually have a "skys-the-limit" attitude. Recommend the best, most unlimiting solution so one can experiment and push themselves and their art to new levels.

[Jesper]

Here are some links:

Max Lyons Digital Image Gallery (http://www.tawbaware.com/maxlyons/) - he has a lot of great stitched photos. He also wrote PTAssembler (http://www.tawbaware.com/ptasmblr.htm), a good photo stitching program. One more from his website: Panosaurus Tripod Head Review (http://www.tawbaware.com/panosaurus_review.htm). The Panosaurus is a low-cost panoramic tripod head. I have one myself but I haven't used it very much, since my 10D is just a bit too heavy for it (unless I use a very small and light lens, such as my 50 f/1.8).

Panoguide (http://www.panoguide.com/) has a lot of info about how to make panoramas.

[Leorooster]

Thanks for the info.



Here are some links:

Max Lyons Digital Image Gallery (http://www.tawbaware.com/maxlyons/) - he has a lot of great stitched photos. He also wrote PTAssembler (http://www.tawbaware.com/ptasmblr.htm), a good photo stitching program. One more from his website: Panosaurus Tripod Head Review (http://www.tawbaware.com/panosaurus_review.htm). The Panosaurus is a low-cost panoramic tripod head. I have one myself but I haven't used it very much, since my 10D is just a bit too heavy for it (unless I use a very small and light lens, such as my 50 f/1.8).

Panoguide (http://www.panoguide.com/) has a lot of info about how to make panoramas.

[Leorooster]

thanks.



I guess it would depend on when you bought it? Look on the CD. You may have it but it just isn't installed?

[rdenney]

When I recommend things I usually have a "skys-the-limit" attitude. Recommend the best, most unlimiting solution so one can experiment and push themselves and their art to new levels.

No problem with that--my reaction was that it seemed to indicate to me that it was the only way to go. As with all things, a design must conform to requirements, and the requirements vary.

The question of foreground elements being most affected by parallax errors is interesting to me, and one I didn't consider. I wonder where the boundary of tolerable vis a vis nodal-point error and foreground distance. How does one determine the nodal point of a given lens? Theoretically, it would be the focal length distance in front of the image plane, right? In my case, it would be 20mm, which may be right where my tripod screw is. I'll have to measure it--it would be useful to know what focal length is directly accommodated by the tripod screw. (Of course, tripods aren't necessarily centered, I suppose, but mine are.)

You are right that Panavue won't do multiple-row panoramas. In my case, it's rarely at issue because I usually crop top to bottom anyway. But I'm only doing cylindrical panoramas.

To the original poster: You can do vertical panoramas with the simplest software by rotating the images on their sides, combining them into the panorama, and rotating the result to vertical. Vertical lines will not remain straight, however, and will bow out as they converge similar to a fisheye effect. Horizontal lines, however, will remain straight. The effect is not as natural as with horizontal pans, and may look better with a rectilinear approach using an extreme wide-angle lens.

Rick "always willing to learn, but sometimes grumbles when being dictated to" Denney

[UncleDoug]

No problem with that--my reaction was that it seemed to indicate to me that it was the only way to go. As with all things, a design must conform to requirements, and the requirements vary.

The question of foreground elements being most affected by parallax errors is interesting to me, and one I didn't consider. I wonder where the boundary of tolerable vis a vis nodal-point error and foreground distance. How does one determine the nodal point of a given lens? Theoretically, it would be the focal length distance in front of the image plane, right? In my case, it would be 20mm, which may be right where my tripod screw is. I'll have to measure it--it would be useful to know what focal length is directly accommodated by the tripod screw. (Of course, tripods aren't necessarily centered, I suppose, but mine are.)

You are right that Panavue won't do multiple-row panoramas. In my case, it's rarely at issue because I usually crop top to bottom anyway. But I'm only doing cylindrical panoramas.

To the original poster: You can do vertical panoramas with the simplest software by rotating the images on their sides, combining them into the panorama, and rotating the result to vertical. Vertical lines will not remain straight, however, and will bow out as they converge similar to a fisheye effect. Horizontal lines, however, will remain straight. The effect is not as natural as with horizontal pans, and may look better with a rectilinear approach using an extreme wide-angle lens.

Rick "always willing to learn, but sometimes grumbles when being dictated to" Denney

Rick,

Sorry, no offense or dictation intended - just passinate about the subject and that porbably projected wrong. :)
I have a boatload of links to other Panorama info sites and a couple of resources for nodal point refs. I'll post them tomorrow when I'm in the office. I'll make sure the one that refs. Cannon lenses is included.

[Leorooster]

To the original poster: You can do vertical panoramas with the simplest software by rotating the images on their sides, combining them into the panorama, and rotating the result to vertical. Vertical lines will not remain straight, however, and will bow out as they converge similar to a fisheye effect. Horizontal lines, however, will remain straight. The effect is not as natural as with horizontal pans, and may look better with a rectilinear approach using an extreme wide-angle lens.

Rick "always willing to learn, but sometimes grumbles when being dictated to" Denney

Thanks, Rick. Will try it when I get a chance.

[johnnybfan]

Rick,

Sorry, no offense or dictation intended - just passinate about the subject and that porbably projected wrong. :)
I have a boatload of links to other Panorama info sites and a couple of resources for nodal point refs. I'll post them tomorrow when I'm in the office. I'll make sure the one that refs. Cannon lenses is included.

Hey Uncle Doug, I'll be looking foward to your links post tomorrow. Thanks.
Also, I'm going to get out to your "neck of the woods" in July. Looking foward to that too.

[UncleDoug]

Hey Uncle Doug, I'll be looking foward to your links post tomorrow. Thanks.
Also, I'm going to get out to your "neck of the woods" in July. Looking foward to that too.

I culled the lot of links I have. Many were dead.
Including the link to the page with Canon lenses on them.
It was a link to a page at the U of Tampa site.

However the link to 360texas will get you to the proper equasions.

IAPP
http://www.panoramicassociation.org/

PanoramaTools forum
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PanoTools/messages

QuicktimeVR Mailing list
http://www.lists.apple.com/archives/quicktime-vr

Great Pano Reosurce - Especially "TIPS"
http://www.360texas.com/

For those into Spherical Panos without iPIX
http://cuvicvr.hp.infoseek.co.jp/Fish4TricksAndTips/000TrickAndTips.html

VRWAY - Got to check this.
http://vrm.vrway.com/index.html#simplified

Mac Panorama Stuff.
http://www.kekus.com/

IVRPA - International VR Photography Association
http://www.ivrpa.org/iqtvra/docs/en/

iPIX
http://www.ipix.com

I include the link to iPIX for educational purposes. I DO NOT endorse them in any way.


July eh?
Pretty crazy around here in the summer.
When you get up here feel free to look us up!

[UncleDoug]

Rick,

Check this link...

http://www.minorlogic.com/projects/smartblend/index.htm

Pretty darn cool way to eliminate paralax error in post processing.
Have not tried it out. Just saw it and though of this thread. :lol:

[rdenney]

Rick,

Check this link...

http://www.minorlogic.com/projects/smartblend/index.htm

Pretty darn cool way to eliminate paralax error in post processing.
Have not tried it out. Just saw it and though of this thread. :lol:

Yes, that is slick. It also demonstrates the parallax error clearly.

Rick "appreciative" Denney

[jetcode]

Good read on the pano issues ... what about a PC lens? I just picked up a Contax/Zeiss 35mm PC and did a split frame single row panoramic by shifting to the left and then to the right. Thankfully the exposures are identical I didn't shoot in manual. I did the stitch with CS4 Photomerge. Is this perspective correct? I get the sense that the lens may have not been perpendicular to the subject (something I have been trying to find the means to correct). Here is the image.

http://joethibodeau.com/ImageVault/TJCartsPanoramic1P617.jpg

Thanks in advance,
Joe