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View Full Version : Completed first run of Canon S9000 INK versus paper types (u


Longwatcher
23rd of January 2003 (Thu), 08:49
Last night I finally got around to start printing out some tests prints on different paper types. The basic results are paper definately makes a difference in the color results. I did not have time to do a detailed study and only did the first run, but I have some first impressions.

I used the Canon S9000 with Canon Ink. All images were printed from the same program (old version of Photo deluxe - it was convienent) with the same print settings using the glossy plus setting. The image was of a sunset in Palm Desert, California with a couple of Palm trees and a wall. I made no contrast or color adjustments, however, I did sharpen the print version one level. I had to change all but the yellow ink cartridge, but all ink had the same batch number. The results do not seem to indicate any ink variations as both Kodak papers were very close if indistinguishable and they were printed at the beginning and end of the print run. I also had a control in the form of the two prints done a couple of weeks ago. A low resolution version of the image used can be found at:

http://www.longwatcher.net/adult/images/Palm_Desert_Sunset-OMP.jpg

Epson High Gloss photo paper - Surprisingly this paper gave the closest to my monitor in terms of overall color with just a touch less blue. Very close in terms of pinks and oranges. It was also closest to the Canon paper in terms of results. [Given that my eyes are shifted slightly into the UV spectrum from normal, this does not mean it is closer to true to the original, only closer to reflecting the same spectrum as the monitor emits.]

HP High gloss photo paper - Took forever to dry, close to Kodak paper in terms of color spread, but with a noticeable green tint. I also saw some blotting of the ink occuring with this paper. Given the drying time and blotting I am unlikely to use this paper in the future on the S9000 with Canon Ink. There was also significant curling of the paper straight out of the box. So it would need to sit awhile to flatten before feeding it to the printer.

Kodak Ultima Satin finish - This is what I normally use, more vibrant colors then other papers, less grey in the print. The sky had slightly more blue then the screen showed, but the sunset colors were more pink. It is actually closer to how I remember the actual sunset looking to my eyes.

Kodak Ultima High Gloss - a very slight touch grayer then the Satin finish and closest to the monitor in terms of blue sky colors. Otherwise identical to Satin finish in terms of color.

Office Depot Satin - A bit lighter then other Office Depot paper tested.

Office Depot High Gloss - All of the Office Depot papers were lighter(brighter) then any of the other papers or the Monitor thus lossing some contrast in the process that showed in the other prints, however they gained in the dark areas at the bottom (which I did not want).

Office Depot Super Heavy Weight High Gloss - Other then the paper has a nice feel to it (similar in weight to Kodak Ultima) no difference from other Office Depot Papers.

The last paper I tried was Office Depot Art Canvas - DANGER, this paper almost jammed up in my printer. If I print with it again I will set it out and make sure it is very flat before feeding it to printer as the paper caught in the printer in several places, It was just luck that it did not jam in the printer. As to color, definate darking of the image, but not quite to the level of the other papers except in the dark areas where it actually was darker then other photo papers (I would have to guess that the black ink adheres better to the art canvas paper then other inks). On the other hand the print looked good after it got passed the jam up.

So the initial results (if I did not contemplate more tests) would be for me to use the Kodak paper when I need more vibrant colors, but to otherwise use which ever is cheaper between the Office Depot, Kodak, Canon, or Epson paper. Given same cost, Canon, then Epson, then Kodak would get it (okay in reality I would probably still go with the Kodak over Epson, because I have several friends that work for Kodak).

[Update: as of 05 Feb,
- Epson premium glossy for B+W prints (initial results)
- OD Premium Glossy for when water a possibility
- Kodak Ultima when I need more vibrant colors
- Canon Matte for matte shots
Final choice will be made when Sunlight test shows results]

I intend to do one more print run for sunlight tests (I would use this one, but I touched the HP and it was still wet after 10 minutes so messed up a portion of the image I would be looking for in a light test) and then print out a pair of the other image I intended for the test.

After that I will decide on a value against each of the papers to decide how much extra (or less) I am willing to pay for each type of paper.

Note: I did not test Ilford paper because it is too difficult for me to get in my area on a regular basis. [Update: I got some Ilford paper - see below messages]

Longwatcher
29th of January 2003 (Wed), 08:55
I completed my second run testing Paper versus Canon S9000 with Canon Ink. I used a different image:

http://www.longwatcher.net/adult/images/Maricel_background compilation-WEB.jpg

This is the web version of the image.

Short form results. With this image it appears that Canon Matte, Kodak Ultima Satin and Ilford Classic Gloss get the win in the different categories. The Epson Matte, Premium Glossy, Kodak Ultima High gloss, and Ilford Classic Pearl come in Honorable mention.

I have come to the conclusion that HP paper should just not be used with the Canon BCI-6 ink cartridges.

Office Depot paper was still too light and lacked contrast compared with the other papers.

There was still some slight color variation, but followed the results of the first test.

Other then I am curious if anybody is actually interested in my results, It will be awhile before the next test is complete as I need to find some place where all of the images will get fairly equal amounts of sunlight, while keeping them out of the rain.


I forgot to mention that I picked up a box of Ilford classic Pearl and classic Gloss. Very similiar results to Kodak Paper although the Ilford paper had a touch more red to it, barely noticeable (would not be if I did not have them literaly side-by-side). The only annoyance with Ilford paper is the tendancy to curl after printing.

Longwatcher
5th of February 2003 (Wed), 08:08
It's just not fair...
I have a Canon camera, Canon lenses, Canon Printer and use Canon Ink. That said, I am slowly realizing the two best papers for use on the Canon Printer are Epson and Office Depot.

I got around to doing a water test last night and the Office Depot paper of all types, except art canvas had virtually no bleeding from water, what minor discoloration I could see probably came from the tap water I used for the test. The Epson Premium Glossy paper came in close second. The Epson Matte paper had a slightly noticable discoloration in the magenta and/or yellow inks, but very minor.

Kodak, Ilford, HP all bleed all over the place, but especially the cyan inks.

In another category, which I have not done a full run on yet, I discovered that Epson Premium Glossy paper gives the best B+W (greyscale) results, with OD Premium Glossy paper close, but slightly off. Kodak and Ilford examples were definately resulting in a noticeable blueish tint. I only ran the Kodak Ultima Satin and Ilford Glossy so far.

Sometime soon I will pick an image and do a full set to include test against Canon paper.

My next test is to use a water protection coating spray and then check the colors and try the water test again.

Also, meanwhile, My second run is sitting in the sun (from window in attic) it will be awhile (I hope) before any fading starts to show.

Now if I could just get some professional lab to do the whole mess scientifically.

JamieAU
5th of February 2003 (Wed), 09:06
As much as I love my camera I would have to say I have found the best performance from printing has been with Epson papers.

I've been lucky enough to be running an Olympus P-400 Dye Sub printer though so not sure what I'd recomment printer wise.

rowzee21
6th of February 2003 (Thu), 00:06
I've been using the s9000 for about 9 months, and have learned that the only paper that is the best to use is, of coarse, CANON paper! I have tried all the others and they do not pick up the vividness nor quality that canon does. I found a supplier on the web where the paper is inexpensive, as compared to the locals. www.Buy.COM. I have been going thru a ton of ink, and have also found that Office Depot is a few dollars cheaper. About $3.00 per cartridge.
It is definelty worth using canon products with your Canon printer. I Iove it! and my Photo's!

My printer has already been to the shop for an overhaul!
Under warrenty and still beautiful!

MacGordon
6th of February 2003 (Thu), 19:23
Tim, I must first say I'm impressed with your tenacity.
You seemed to have done a very thorough job. :)

Take a look at this. This fact sheet was suggested to me when I was looking for quality paper with a long life.
It's just an FYI.

http://www.pcworld.com/news/graphics/105461-2011p018-1b.gif

Again, nice job and thanks!

_______
Doc Mac

Longwatcher
7th of February 2003 (Fri), 09:39
Thanks for the link.

Had I seen it before I bought, it might have changed my mind as to Canon over Epson (except I really like the speed increase).

I did the first coat of water protection spray this morning and will do the second this afternoon and sometime over the weekend see what the results are.

I am doing this because I have a really great printer, but want the best paper at the optimum price to go with the ink, after I discovered the paper made a larger difference then I ever thought it would. I knew ink would make a difference, but I had not thought the paper would make that big a difference to color variations.

I am surprised at the longevity of the Epson 2200 with the crome inks, I am a little skeptacle of anything over 50 years that has only existed for less then 5 though.

Longwatcher
10th of February 2003 (Mon), 10:48
Time for the results of my Black and White print run I did this weekend.

Caution: A reminder that my eyes are off slightly into the UV from normal, which may affect my color assessment.

Winner is Canon Photo Matte, just a very slight cyan cast, barely noticeable

Second Place: Epson Photo Matte, Just a very minor touch of yellow, which I think is the paper itself, again barely noticeable.


Followed by:
- Office Depot Super Heavy Weight High Gloss; touch of green cast, very minor
- Epson Premium Glossy, Touch of green, very minor
- Ilford Classic Pearl, Touch of Cyan, minor
- Office Depot Satin, slight green noticeable
- Ilford Classic Gloss, Cyan, somewhat noticeable - some blotting in medium grey fields of color
- Office Depot High Gloss, slight green, noticeable
- Kodak Ultima High Gloss, Cyan, noticeable
- Kodak Ultima Satn, cyan, noticeable
- HP Matte, Green, Blotting, does not play well with printer
- HP High Gloss, Green, blotting, etc..


On another note: I just finished my coating water test, I used Lumijet Imageshield (recommended by local store).
I sprayed two coats and then covered one corner a third time (No difference to water bleeding except for OD HG)
No bleeding after 2 coats (in order of least effected to most)
- OD Satin
- Epson Matte
- Kodak Ultima Gloss
- Kodak Ultima Satin
- HP Glossy

No bleeding after 3 coats
- OD high Gloss

Bleed even after 3 coats
- HP Matte, OD Super Heavy Weight HG, Canon Matte, Epson Glossy, Canon Glossy, Ilford Glossy, Ilford Pearl.

Bleed worse after coating
Office Depot Art Canvas.

Thus except for the sun light test all tests are complete at this time.

Hope the information is useful.

JamieAU
10th of February 2003 (Mon), 18:05
Thanks again for the information Tim, I find this all very useful. Have you any idea who makes the OD brand of papers? Given that they sound like a chain store I wonder if they may be OEM & relabeled to their brand.

geecee
10th of February 2003 (Mon), 23:13
Haven't done any tests as such but I have made some observations.

I have tried HP photo paper. At present I have Premium Gloss Inkjet Photo Paper and Premium Inkjet Paper (Matt). Both are made in Thailand and sold in Australia under the "Resolution" brand.

When printing greyscale images without correction with my HP 810c I get a colour cast which varies from cartridge to cartridge, refill to refill but seems to stay constant in between and from paper type to paper type. Even ordinary office paper seems to produce roughly the same colour. Obviously the bias in the printer overrides any bias in the papers.

See also the thread "B&W Prints from Digital Image Files".

Graham
Melbourne Australia

Longwatcher
11th of February 2003 (Tue), 07:32
I will try to remember to check at home, but if I had to make a guess at this point, I would say OD most closely resembles the Epson paper characteristics. Definately not Kodak, Ilford or HP. Could be Canon or another type I have not gotten/tested.

Sometime this week I will let you all know the listed manufacturer locations on the boxes.

slejhamer
11th of February 2003 (Tue), 08:01
Longwatcher,

This is excellent research. I'm off to OD to test their paper on my Epson printer.

One question: I assume you used regular Epson matte, not the archival variety. Is this correct?

Thanks for your efforts!

Longwatcher
12th of February 2003 (Wed), 08:48
I use the photo premium version. If there is a version listed as archival, no I do not use that. I tried to make sure that I use the best photo papers commonly available in the local stores, since that would be what I am likely to use on a regular basis or if I run out and need to get some NOW.

An answer to another question above.

I looked this morning and Office Depot paper is made in Japan by Seiko (according to all three boxes I have).

Epson web site says Seiko-Epson.

I can't confirm it via the web, but I can do the math and it sure looks like Office Depot paper is made by the same folks who make Epson paper.

Trivia: one is packaged in Mexico (OD I seem to remember), the other in Canada, China or Taiwan? (Epson I think) I forget which is which and which country the other was packaged in, but one was Mexico the other was not. I think it was the HP I looked at that was made in Canada.

Ilford said Switzerland; Kodak was USA and Canon was Japan.

P.S. Mitch, I note you are listed as being in VIrginia, where? I live in Newport News, VA

slejhamer
13th of February 2003 (Thu), 09:18
Thanks Longwatcher. You'd know if you had used the archival matte paper, as you'd pay a heck of a lot more for it and "archival" is on the box. I don't use it (my 780 printer doesn't handle the archival inks) but just wanted to make sure you were talking about the same paper I currently have.

Here's something interesting: NCR seems to think that it is the maker of Office Depot's photo paper. I do not think that NCR and Seiko/Epson are related. Odd that your ODP paper would carry the Seiko name. However, I guess ODP could use different vendors for different types of paper (glossy vs. matte, for example.)
http://www.ncr.com/media_information/2002/jul/pr070802c.htm

Quote from the press release:
"NCR’s range of products for Office Depot includes ink jet printer business cards, greeting cards and invitations - but it was the company’s digital photo papers in particular that received the greatest customer acceptance. Recently, Desktoppublishing.com rated Office Depot’s digital photo paper number one in the market for quality and value."


P.S. I'm currently in Vienna, outside DC. Drop me a note if you get up here; I only pass by your location on the way to VA Beach in the summer.

Longwatcher
13th of February 2003 (Thu), 16:45
Okay I messed up...

Here is the paper listing while I am at home. It covers all of the paper I consider to be for photos. All are from the outside of the box. This should help in clarifying which papers I tested. Note: I missed some of the barcode, but that is the portion I compare against.

Kodak Ultima Picture Paper - Satin Finish / barcode 41778 35308 / Made in Canada

Kodak Ultima Picture Paper - High Gloss / barcode 41778 89279 / Made in Canada

Kodak Premium Picture Paper - High Gloss / barcode 41771 09602 / Made in Canada (not tested above)

Canon Matte Photo Paper / barcode 13803 01701 / Made in Japan

Canon 11x17" Glossy Photo Paper / barcode 50845 72250 / Made in Japan (not used in test above)

Canon 13 x 19" Photo Paper Pro / barcode 13803 01173 / Made in Japan (color comparison tests only)

Canon 4 x 6" Photo Paper Plus Glossy / barcode 13803 02117 / Made in Japan (not used in test above)

Canon High Resolution Paper / barcode 50845 72316 / Made in Japan (not used in test above)

Office Depot Canvas Cloth for Inkjets / barcode 35854 98035 / Made in USA

Office Depot Premium Satin Gloss Photo Paper / barcode 35854 98213 / Made in Japan

Office Depot Premium High Gloss Photo Paper / barcode 35854 98033 / Made in Japan

Office Depot Super Heavy Weight Photo Paper / barcode 35854 98272 / Made in Japan

Epson Matte Paper Heavyweight / barcode 10343 81832 / Paper made in Japan packaged in USA

Epson Premium Glossy Photo Paper / barcode 10343 81920 / Paper made in Japan packaged in Mexico (note inner wrapper was the one I got Seiko from (I had accidently placed in OD box).

HP Premium plus Photo Paper Matte / barcode 88698 83992 / Paper made in UK (stamped on box)

HP Premium Photo Paper Glossy / barcode 88698 17423 / made in UK? not on box (may have been stanped on tear off portion)

Ilford Galerie Classic Gloss Paper / barcode 19498 98230 / made in Switzerland

Ilford Galerie Classic Pearl Paper / barcode 19498 97925 / made in Switzerland

I also have a bunch of plain, label, t-shirt transfer, magnetic, and others but I don't consider photo grade.

Sorry I got confused earlier.

I think the Art Canvas is probably NCR, the others could be Epson, but they are not likely to be NCR as they don't have offices in Japan that I could find on their web site.