technical help please

[shanky31]

Hope someone out there can assist
Ive been asked to take the teamshots for my sons football club in a couple of weeks, and was looking for guidance on what type of set up I should be using for the shots?
Ive got a 40 D with issue lenses and a 540 speedlite, but the shots will be at dusk or at least low light, and out door.
Dont like to shoot auto so would appreciate any advice.
Thanks in advance.

[Tiberius47]

Put the camera in TV mode so you can keep a fast shutter speed (to freeze action and also avoid camera shake). You'll most likely need to use a telephoto lens, something around 200-300 mm. You'll also need to raise the ISO up a bit as well to avoid under exposure, so try about 800 or so. Try this, and take some practise shots in similar conditions.

[aram535]

IMHO that's bad advise. Here is what I suggest:

*) Most likely you will not be allowed to use flash. Most schools will not allow flash photography, specially at night.

*) Get down on your knee, or sit down. You want to shoot up (SLIGHTLY) up at the players. Never down at at them.

*) Wait for the play to come to you, shooting from across the field you just get a mass of players. Pick the area that you can reach with your lens and don't even bring the camera to your eye unless they're in that zone. Be ready though, as plays develop fast.

*) Isolate the player, shoot vertical. Remember -- One player, one ball, one movement/emotion/event.

*) Longest / Fastest lens you have, I would go with faster rather than longer if you have to choose. You can always crop some to get the shot. You really can't go below 200mm though, although 100mm can be done as well.

*) Use center weight.

*) Use a single AF point (center/center) is the best option, although you can shift left and right depending on which direction your team is going (you go opposite side) so you can give the player room to move into the rest of the frame.

*) Use AI Servo for your AF. This allows you to focus and keep focus on a moving player.

*) Use Av mode. Set it to the widest aperture (smallest number).

*) Start at ISO 400, keep checking your Shutter Speed and increase the ISO until you get > 1/250th of a second. At some point if it's really dark you're going to fall below that. It's time to pack it in -- well ok there is one more trick. ## If you REALLY REALLY need to get the shot, you can purposefully underexpose the image by 1 stop. That'll get you some more shutter speed. Hopefully you're shooting in RAW and you can recover that lost spot in post. However your images are going to be incredibly grainy, but you'll get the shot. ##

[gymdad]

Shanky31......

Are you taking a group shot of the team, individual shots of each player, or action shots of the game? This clarification might help others here give you some solid advice.

[wyofizz]

I interpreted the OP as a group shot.
Either way he's going to have a rough go at it with his present gear.
Dave

[aram535]

If I mis-read the OP my apologies to him and to Tiberious, but it's still bad advice. Tv mode doesn't belong since you need to control the DoF either way, small or large.

[dmwierz]

*) Most likely you will not be allowed to use flash. Most schools will not allow flash photography, specially at night.

Huh? Aside from working NFL and NCAA, I've shot a couple hundred football games, from middle school through HS and not once been told not to use flash. In fact, a couple of the folks I work for require flash. I've even worked night HS soccer with a flash. The only time I've ever seen flash expressly forbidden for football (including soccer) is at NCAA, MLS and NFL games.

Check out Phil's thread on working football for some good advice (what type of football are we talking about, BTW, American or "Soccer"?).

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=735799

And here's a detailed thread about using flash:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=375847

Lose the Tv settings, and either learn to shoot manual (best for night or cloudy situations) or Av where light is variable.

The OP's post is a bit confusing. What do you mean by "team shots"? Team portraits? Action shots?

[aram535]

Huh? Aside from working NFL and NCAA, I've shot a couple hundred football games, from middle school through HS and not once been told not to use flash. In fact, a couple of the folks I work for require flash. I've even worked night HS soccer with a flash. The only time I've ever seen flash expressly forbidden for football (including soccer) is at NCAA, MLS and NFL games.

I would stay away from anyone who told me flash was required. That's just an idiotic requirement. You use it when you need to.


Check out Phil's thread on working football for some good advice (what type of football are we talking about, BTW, American or "Soccer"?).

What you have to understand is that you can't quote Phil to the referrer at the game. :-)

I try to follow the guidelines set for by whomever is paying the bill. If they say don't use flash -- I won't use flash. All of the universities/colleges (Division II and Division III), semi-pro and pro games that I've covered here in NY -- explicitly tell you, no flash photography. It's right in my press/photographer guide, usually bolded.

Have I seen others get away with it? Sure. But I think of it this way, is the outcome going to be worth getting kicked out, or banned, or even worse the damage to my reputation?

Now, IF AND ONLY IF I was allowed to use flash -- I'd use it VERY sparingly -- if I'm at ISO 3200, F/2.8, 0 EV and I still can't get 1/250th or 1/500th (depending on game). Otherwise I don't want to be a distraction to the players, refs or spectators. That's just my philosophy, not saying anyone else is doing it wrong.

[joedlh]

Ive been asked to take the teamshots for my sons football club in a couple of weeks... the shots will be at dusk or at least low light, and out door.

My understanding of team shots is that everybody lines up in a close cluster and you take pictures of them. Most of those responding are addressing action shots during the game, which does not appear to be your situation. Am I wrong?

The challenge is that you're taking the shots with poor light. So artificial light is a must, unless the stadium has night lights. Because of the large group, you will also be standing a good distance from them. This means (1) you need a powerful strobe, (2) the likelihood of red eye is greater. I would think about using a two-light setup, one on the left and one on the right. Cluster the team as close as you can get them, with some sitting in front, some kneeling, and others standing. Because flashes lose light with distance, you must get them as close together depth-wise as well.

[shanky31]

Shanky31......

Are you taking a group shot of the team, individual shots of each player, or action shots of the game? This clarification might help others here give you some solid advice.

Thanks all but perhaps I did not clarify the situation properly,
Yes it will be a static group shot all the kids close together " tall at the back small at the front etc. "

Thanks for the input

[dmwierz]

I would stay away from anyone who told me flash was required. That's just an idiotic requirement. You use it when you need to.

Here we go again......:rolleyes:

I'll officially hijack the thread right here, with my apologies to the OP. This might as well be the first thread that deals with the Flash Vs. Ambient debate that comes up every year.

I think several of the national prep sports photography companies might take issue with being called "idiotic" for spec'ing flash for night HS football, and BTW, so might I since I happen to agree with them and dis-agree with you. I've done it both ways, and after many, many (200+) HS games, I cannot disagree with you more than I do.

However, my disagreeing with you doesn't make you an idiot......:o

Go right ahead and shoot ambient light for Friday Night Football, and I'll shoot with flash right alongside you, and I'll bet you a beer per night that I'll out-sell you any night of this and all subsequent football seasons. Guarantee it.

Good luck dealing with the AC lights changing color and ruining your white balance; good luck getting enough light under the helmet to adequately expose for faces; good luck getting your colors saturated enough to make a good print; good luck getting your effective shutter speed fast enough to stop the action (and yes, I use 1/250s sync speed, though this only controls ambient exposure)......in general, good luck. Every last one of the above issues are solved by employing artificial light.

But then again, that's just my opinion, and you know what they say about opinions......

[dmwierz]

Shanky - I think there is a sticky about doing team portraits. Let me look for it...

Here it is:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=112409

If it's dark and you use flash, set your shutter speed to the highest sync speed (1/200s or 1/250s probably), try stopping down to f/5.6 or so to give you a little more DOF, and I'd set my ISO around 800 and see how this works. Make sure your flash is set to its highest level (or try ETTL, though I've not had the best luck with ETTL and night portraits).

Good luck, and post your results here.

[wyofizz]

Ditto Dennis,

My flashed football photos outsell ambient at least 2 to 1.

Dave

[aram535]

Here we go again......:rolleyes:

I'll officially hijack the thread right here, with my apologies to the OP. This might as well be the first thread that deals with the Flash Vs. Ambient debate that comes up every year.


I don't think the OP is coming back so we can hijack it. :-)

I didn't call doing flash photography idiotic.... I called "Requiring" flash photography idiotic. There is a big difference.

Who the devil goes around and says "I won't buy your picture if you didn't use flash"?

If you can shoot with flash all the more power to you. I "WISH" I could. The damn rules won't let me. I have my portable Al's power pack and everything for my 580.

[shanky31]

Yeah Im still around guys and thanks for the help, the forum link helped heaps so at least Ill have a start point, and as the field is nearby Ill take a few test shots at varying lights to see what works best before the occasion.
As for the hijack of the thread, I was caught up in that also, always good to see a difference of opinion. God bless democracy !!
Thanks again,

[dmwierz]

aram,

I know of numerous states who address the use of artificial light for football and basketball, saying essentially if you are shooting for an approved media outlet, that artificial light is authorized. I always check with the AD of any new school, but normally it's an "assumed close" - in other words, I inform them that, in accordance with IHSA Rules, I will be employing artificial light.

Here's the direct quote:

Authorized news media representatives, who have identified themselves to the host school principal (or designee) may be permitted to
use electronic lighting equipment throughout the course of a given activity. Such electronic lighting can be either: 1) strobe lights mounted to
fixed positions and/or 2) electronic attachments mounted to a camera.

Host principals (or designee) should confer with the coaches of the teams participating in a contest before giving permission to authorized
news media photographers to use strobe lighting mounted to fixed positions.
Host principals (or designee) should confer with game officials and authorized news media photographers before requiring photographers
to cease use of electronic attachments because such equipment may be allegedly causing interference with the conduct of the contest.

Like I said, I know of at least two other "local" states that have similar provisions. Also, I have never once been prohibited from using flash for HS football, basketball, hockey, wrestling and some water events. Exceptions are volleyball, gymnastics, baseball, and timed swimming events.

[Big K]

Indiana is similar to Illinois except we can also strobe swimming except for the start of a race due to the stobes possibly triggering the starting/timing system and diving. The IHSAA does leave the final call regarding stobe use to the officials until the state tourney begins and they get more serious about credential controls but have never had an issue at any event I have wanted to strobe.

[dmwierz]

Kevin,
In fact, here's the wording from the Indiana rules and reg's (from another active thread):


IHSAA Policy on Use of Strobe Photography
Photographers MAY use electronic flash/strobe cameras during the progress of a sporting event as long as, in the opinion of the contest officials, the flash does not hinder the actions of or endanger the contestants. The final decision as it relates to photography rests with the judgment of the contest official. School administrators have the authority to designate certain areas from which photographers may operate during a contest.

http://www.ihsaa.org/media/2006-07/StrobePolicy.pdf

[Big K]

Kevin,
In fact, here's the wording from the Indiana rules and reg's (from another active thread):



http://www.ihsaa.org/media/2006-07/StrobePolicy.pdf

Thanks Dennis. I was looking for that link to post with my response but the IHSAA recently revamped their site and I could not quickly find it.

Have a good weekend.

[aram535]

As I said --- nobody will require you to use flash. Some places will "allow" it or "disallow" it. If they require you to use flash than I stand by my original statement. Nobody ever said only at night, or only during low light. You "may" use it, is "ok you're allowed to use it" not that you aren't allowed to shoot without flash.

So what it comes down to is rules that the games are governed by. Mine says that I can't so I won't.