Help! Canon Rebel XT or 20D + Lens?

[clintd1369]

Hi Everyone

My wife and I will be visiting Tanzania next year and will be doing a safari trip. As such we thought of investing in a Digital SLR to take some good pictures as we heard that the compact digital cameras were not up to it for shooting nice pictures on a safari. We currently have a Canon S50 and were considering the new Canon EOS Rebel XT or the Canon EOS 20D? Any suggestion on which would be a better investment (fewer problems etc.)? We are not photography experts but would like to have some good memories of our holiday and a good digital SLR that will hold its own for sometime.

Also, having read stuff on the web, many sites have suggested buying only the camera body and then attaching a lense based on what you need. Being that we'll be on a safari and will have to shoot pictures from a distance, a good zoom would be nice. However, we did not want to spend a fortune in buying a bunch of lenses. We were hoping for something that would give us good wide-angle shots for Panoramas and a good Zoom for the longer distance shots. Additionally, I have read that the lenses have a range of say 75mm to 300mm for example. What does this signify in terms of actual zoom capability? I have read that this translates to 150mm to 600mm for a normal 35mm camera. Though on other sites the same 75-300 was translated to 100mm to 400mm.


Being that both of us know very little about SLRs, we were hoping that someone could advise us on what lense might be best for safari situations without spending a fortune. We want to avoid buying a lens and then arrive on holiday and find out that it just doesnt cut it for the long distance shots or even the moving game shots. Our budget for the lens is about $250 to $350 (is this realistic?)

Many thanks to all in advance for your advice and suggestions.

[KurtKuhn]

Having upgraded from an S45, I'll chime in with a vote for the Drebel XT. The XT is a fine camera that will work well for travel (read: it's lighter than the 20D). If you've accumulated batteries for the S50, you can use them in the Drebel XT. They won't last as long as the battery that is specified for the camera, but two in a battery grip (BG-E3) will last several hundred shots. By the way, if you have large hands, you'll do well in buying the battery grip to accompany the XT.

The equivalent 1.6x lens magnification is actually a crop factor due to the Drebel XT & 20D having less than a full size sensor. e.g. My 24-70mm lens yields a field of view as if it was 38-112mm.

I'll let some of the folks who have more experience with longer lenses comment on safari applicability. ;)

-KK

[davepop]

Another vote for the Drebel XT. The battery grip is really good and a worthwhile investment. It adds extra weight and gives you the option of using AA size batteries if you are stuck for power.

[clintd1369]

Thanks Kurt & Dave! I believe the battery for the S50 is NB-2L and that of the Rebel XT is NB-2LH. Are they interchangeable?
I am leaning toward the XT too and am thinking of saving the diff. between the XT and the 20D and putting it into a better lens/lenses.

[ddelallata]

I'd go for the Rebel XT and pay the extra ~130 dlls for the BG-E3 batter pack. Since you are not a pro-photagrapher I think that you will be happy with the results of the 18-55mm kit lens. Tell us what you decide on.

[cheme]

I have the 20D, but I've used both and I think that the XT travels easier than the 20d due to its size and weight.

[GeForceFX]

use the kitlens for your wide-angle shots, and a nice zoomlens for the wildlife.
I think you'll need at least 300mm for a safari.



Additionally, I have read that the lenses have a range of say 75mm to 300mm for example. What does this signify in terms of actual zoom capability? I have read that this translates to 150mm to 600mm for a normal 35mm camera. Though on other sites the same 75-300 was translated to 100mm to 400mm.


both the XT and the 20D have a "1.6x crop factor"
that means a 75-300 acts like a 120-480 (75 x 1.6 and 300 x 1.6) on a normal 35mm camera

[Wildman]

Whatever camera and lens(es) you choose, be sure to purchase the equipment well enough in advance of your trip to learn how to use it to best advantage. DSLRs present some unique challenges over the simpler Point and Shooters. In addition to the added flexibility and "switchology" issues, you'll need to learn how to process your photos to get the best result. You'll find that there's a big difference between taking pictures and photography.

[davepop]

Thanks Kurt & Dave! I believe the battery for the S50 is NB-2L and that of the Rebel XT is NB-2LH. Are they interchangeable?

I have heard they are, but I have never tried this for myself.
You will get a NB-2LH with your camera, it has more power, but other than this I believe they are the same. I'm sure someone else will confirm this for you.

;)

[merrrrjig]

I have the 20D and love it! I think there is a 75-300 canon lens for under 300

[boomerang]

I was originally in the market to buy the 20D, but changed to the XT more for my wife. She felt better conrol over the smaller camera- plus with the extra money saved we were able to buy better lenses. Also nice bonus is the travel size!

[nater]

Given that a lens is at least as important to image quality as the camera body is, I would agree that you should save money by getting the Rebel XT and allocate more funds toward lenses. Getting the 18-55mm kit lens is a good value and would cover your wide-angle need.

For a high quality telephoto, two popular options are the Canon 100-400mm L lens, or the Sigma "Bigma" 50-500 lens. I've read of people using both those lenses on safaris. But they are more expensive than what you appear willing to spend. A cheaper (but still high-quality) solution would be to get the Canon 70-200mm f/4L lens, and also a 1.4x or 2x teleconverter. That lens can be found for less than $600, and it's really nice.

Whatever you do, make sure a good tripod is on your purchase list. It's especially important for long telephoto shots.

[boomerang]

I agree if you are going to Tanzania make sure you have a nice zoom with good glass or you will be sorry.

[deedas]

Hi, as a new dSLR owner I can tell you some things I would have done different from my purchases. First I would indeed had bought my 20D body only. I could have used the money saved towards the purchase of a Tamron 28-70 f//2.8, which I bought anyways soon after I got my 20D. The Canon 70-200mm f/4 L and a 1.4x TC would be the cheapest options for a nice tele zoom. The combined f/5.6 should be no problem in a Safari. You'll only have to worry if you plan on doing anything indoors with it when you come back. Of course as mentioned a lot here on these boards, a 20D has excellent higher ISO performance so that would be a nice plus in the 20D vs XT check list.

Two accessories you definitely need are a Tripod/monopod to keep that lens steady out in the Safari and the battery grip to give you extra juice and give you a better grip of the camera. Hopefully by next year they'll be selling the fixed version.

[etaf]

i would make sure you go and hold them before you do anything - the rebelXT 350 is too small for my hand.
the 20D with a canon 100-400L lens and maybe the canon converter 1.4x or 2x would be great IMO.

but as I say go and play and hold the camera - but also make sure its got the type of lens you will be using on.

A tripod / monopod would be useful at that focal length too.. as it can be difficult to hand hold at 400mm if tou do not have a great light - @400mm you would want a shutter speed of 1/500th minimum to handhold

[condyk]

What's the OVERALL budget ... it impacts mightily on any recommendations. Your current lens budget will get you a Sigma 70-300 APO Super II which is Ok, but ... mayge there are better all round choices if we know your total amount.

Options should include the now almost discontinued 300D/Rebel. Crazy deals around at the monent! Get a top quality zoom like the Sigma 80-400mm OS (with image stabilization), 50-500mm Bigma (extra 100mm is very useful!) or the Sigma 100-300mm F4 and 1.4 extender with the saved cash. You can pick up good SH 300D's via the Marketplace here.

I don't think the 350XT adds much value for the money over the 300D or I'd have bought one. The 20D DOES and is worth the extra, but NOT at the expense of a decent zoom. A 200mm with extender is not long enough and even the 300mm and extender option may at times seem short. Bigma is good and great value: I had one and recommend its quality and reach. The Sigma OS has great user feedback and the OS is good for handheld shots. I really liked the one I had but it had a focus fault and I had to return it. Ideal for a walking safari. The 100-300 F4 is best quality overall and lighter, but you'd need a extender too which adds cash.

If a vehicle based safari then take a beanbag (Pod!) and use that on the car door or through the roof. Tripod on a vehicle safari is largely a waste of time. With the 300D solution you are spending more on the lens and that is GOOD.

Use the kit lens for wide shots and around town ... not massive quality but decent. Good landscape shots are difficult in Africa due to the sun and haze. A quality Zoom must be your priority, then a good body. The 300D/Rebel is a good body at a great price now.

You must also think about battery usage/charging and image storage, but you can add your thoughts about this below and people can advise.

If you think a point and shoot is a better idea then the Panasonic FZ5 is superb with a huge and great Leica optical zoom. Will also be nice around town. Very small.

[clintd1369]

A small update. My wife will be using the camera, so I think the size of the XT will be fine for her. We have a tripod but it is a bit bulky, and I too wondered how to use it from a safari 4WD. Thanks to condyk I now have the answer. Where do you buy this beanbag?

If the NB2L is compatible then I already have 2 (for the S50) and with a total of 3 (1 NB 2LH and 2 NB2Ls) I think I could manage for a day and then recharge in the evening. I have 3GB in CF.
I'm also thinking of getting one of the portable 20GB drives to copy the pics onto daily.

I will do more research on the zoom, as it looks like I will need something in the mid range (pricewise) and my small budget wont cut it. Thanks to Francesco for explaining the numbers! Now it all makes more sense.
I too have heard that the Canon 70-200mm f/4 L is a very good lense at an affordable price for what it offers. If I can find it for a good price I'll try and get it.
I think I will stick to a Canon lense too as I would like to avoid any compatibility issues.

I will keep you'll posted as to what I decide. Many thanks to everyone who have provided their input. Additional comments and input is always welcome.

[Poco]

I have the Rebel XT and quite like it (takes some learning though, I still take some crap pictures with it :-). I got the EF 28-105mm f3.5-4.5 II USM lens instead of the kit lens when I bought the camera. It retails for only $300 canadian while the body is $150 less without the lens so it is only $150 canadian more (I only paid $115 which comes to under $100 US). I don't miss the wide angle shots at all and for those you could use your S50 if you had to. You may want a longer focal length for distant animals so another lens in the 100-XXX range would add nicely to the 28-105. That is what I plan to get when I get around to another lens.

[condyk]

Do a search for Pod beanbag ..

200mm is way too short. 400mm is minimum. I lived in South africa for 18 months and travelled throughout the region with a 400mm and it was often too short. Sticking to Canon restricts your options lens wise. Nevertheless, if you must and you're looking at midrange then the 100-300 USM is Ok.

[etaf]

remember on the 20D and rebelXT there is a conversion factor of 1.6 on the lens focal length to get 35mm equivalent.

so a 400mm lens on 35mm - will now be 400 * 1.6 on the 20d/rebelXT = 640mm

[clintd1369]

I'm looking at CANON 75-300mm F/4.0-5.6 - Zoom with Image Stablizer which is roughly $400 on JandR.com
Any thoughts? I am concerned that at 300mm there will be issues with image stabilization and camera shake (that beanbag may come in handy, but I dont know how much...) so the IS on the lens which brings its price up to 400. Without IS it is $195

Etaf, you are right, the 300mm will give me a resulting 480mm which I hope is enough.

Condyk, I have heard of camera lockups with Sigma/Tamron lenses which I assume should not happen with the Canon.

[etaf]

the IS may be very useful as it gives you about two stops extra
so a 400mm lens would need a speed for handholding around 1/500th {should use the focal equivalent - so 400 x1.6 and then use the reciprocal so 1/{400x1.6} - gives an approximation for speed}

but with IS
you can go sown two stops -
so 1/500 down to 1/125th
which may make the difference between getting the picture or not...

[clintd1369]

Thanks Etaf. Not being an expert in this, I am lost on your last note... I am sure it is something good but I probably need to learn more about speed and picture taking to understand (I am happy to learn if you could explain it to me). From a price quality perspective I will go for the lens I mentioned in the previous post above which is the 75-300mm F/4.0-5.6 Zoom with IS.
I am quite decided on the XT as well. Thanks once again.

[etaf]

ok - when you take a photo you will have a shutter speed depending on how much light there is - and you can change this shutter speed {along with aperture} But...
when you are holding a camera and press the shutter release button to take the picture you hands will generate some vibration and this is known as camera shake - end result blurred picture - which is no good.

so as a clue to the minimum speed you can hold a camera at there is this "approx rule" about focal length

so on that 75-300mm lens
when its at the 75 end a camera shutter speed of 1/75th will be OK as a guide to avoide ablurred picture because of your hands shaking - but at 300mm you need 1/300th and spmetimes because of the aperture and light you cant get this speed.......

But IS will give you too stops advantage - so instead of 1/75 - you can go down to 1/30th and the 1/300 you can go down to 1/125 poss 1/60th which is an advantage.

if this note on speed and aperture doesnt mean much to you - then I would suggest you have a really good play with the kit before you go.....

this may help


Cameras Interactive aims to help novice photographers grasp the main concepts of SLR photography.
The Flash-based Virtual Camera gives users hands-on experience operating an Single Lens Reflex (SLR) camera.
Four tutorials explain focusing, aperture, shutter speed and exposure.
Users can also submit their own photos to the Cameras Interactive Gallery and vote for their favourite photo.
http://www.camerasinteractive.com/index.php



http://209.196.177.41/
Digital Photography The Textbook {A Free On-line Course}

[clintd1369]

Thanks a million Etaf. You have answered my question and given me some direction on where to go to learn more :-) Thanks for the links.

[nater]

From a price quality perspective I will go for the lens I mentioned in the previous post above which is the 75-300mm F/4.0-5.6 Zoom with IS.

Have you read a positive review on this lens somewhere, or are you basing your decision on the lens' specifications you read? I've never tried the lens, but every review I've read says that it's pretty soft in the 200-300mm range.

[Icecamp]

Hi Clint,
The 75-300 IS is an OK lens, it is pretty good up to about 200mm then it starts to get a little soft. I have still seen some pretty good pictures with that lens though. If you can swing it, the 70-200 f/4L with a 1.4x teleconverter will be sharper and more versatile than the 75-300 IS. Have fun on your Safari, I hope you have some good wildlife watching opportunities.

[trickyricky]

My G1 took way better pics than my new XT with the kit lens. I purchased the Sigma 70-200 which is awesome. I have a Canon Canon 28-135mm IS lens on order. I'm regret paying any money for the "kit" lens.

[KurtKuhn]

Thanks Kurt & Dave! I believe the battery for the S50 is NB-2L and that of the Rebel XT is NB-2LH. Are they interchangeable?


They are interchangeable, but you will NOT get the same life out of the NB-2L as you will from the NB-2LH. I should have been explicitly clear that I use two NB-2L's in the battery grip. These were left over from my S45. I keep the NB-2LH, that came with the camera, in reserve for when the *two NB-2L's give out. Here's a good thread for NB-2L / NB-2LH discussion. (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=68152)

I am leaning toward the XT too and am thinking of saving the diff. between the XT and the 20D and putting it into a better lens/lenses.

That's what I did, and the 24-70L has performed beyond my expectations.

Good luck with your choice. I agree that you really need to consider your overall budget.

-KK

*it's been 5 weeks (in camera!) & 400 frames since the last recharge, and they show no signs of giving out yet. ...yes I know, only 400 frames...I'm behind...gotta get out & get shooting...

[Jon]

The 75-300 is an OK lens. Bear in mind that the 75-300 IS is 10 years old, so more recent lenses have had increasing refinem,emts to the design. But the IS will help not only by letting you hand-hold at slower speeds, but in helping damp out vehicle vibration should they not turn off the motor on the safari vehicle (or if they don't stop).

I will agree that you're quite likely to find 300 mm too short, and the 75-300 won't take the Canon or Sigma TCs. Tamron makes a high-end 1.4X TC (their SP line) which I'd rate well enough, and which will accomodate the 75-300 if you can't afford a longer lens but can manage the extra $200 or so for the TC.

[whchan]

Thanks Kurt & Dave! I believe the battery for the S50 is NB-2L and that of the Rebel XT is NB-2LH. Are they interchangeable?
I am leaning toward the XT too and am thinking of saving the diff. between the XT and the 20D and putting it into a better lens/lenses.
You can use the S50 batteries on 350D and it is what I am doing. I have not even used the battery that comes with the 350D yet. The "older, smaller capacity" S50 battery lasts ~600 shots per charge. The battery that comes with the 350D has ~700mA vs. 560mA and that should last ~750 shots if that ratio holds.

[clintd1369]

To be honest I havent heard of any good reviews of the lens I intended to buy. I did read though that with IS it was better (however to be fair it also said that the optics of this lens were poor). However, after some discussion and reviewing with my better half we are now going for the Canon 70-200mm f/4L lens (I've read many reviews about this one being a very good lens for the price). It is a bit more pricey but we would prefer sharper and better pictures rather then super zoomed and blurred ones.

Icecamp, regarding the teleconverter lenses, any particular brand? What about it's diameter to fit over the 70-200mm lense? Any comments?

Thanks for the info on the battery. We wont bother buying another one (money going into the lense)

[etaf]

I would go for one of these as they are designed for that lens
see here
http://www.canon.co.uk/for_home/product_finder/cameras/ef_lenses/extenders/index.asp
the 2x will give you 400mm which would be 400 x 1.6 = 640mm

[Chazs]

I see you've gotten a ton of helpful info here. Here's my take: I moved from the S40 to the DRebel to the 20D. The 20D takes incredible photos compared to the other two (albeit, dependent on lenses in use) . I imagine the XT will be on par with the 20D. But I still pack the little S40 where ever I go. No matter what you end up with (20D or XT) try to fit the S50 in somewhere.

[clintd1369]

You are right. Not only have I got a lot of good advice, but I am also learning so many things about cameras that I just had no idea about.
We'll be taking the S50 along too. It will be our backup, and we can use it for the close up shots. Plus its handy in the city for easy point and click stuff.

[Medic1]

I love my 20D, but in all reality for travelling I would probably go with the XT. Its a great camera, small and good for travelling......as well and a little more friendly to smaller hands (for your wife).

[scrubca]

I'm looking at CANON 75-300mm F/4.0-5.6 - Zoom with Image Stablizer which is roughly $400 on JandR.com
Any thoughts? I am concerned that at 300mm there will be issues with image stabilization and camera shake (that beanbag may come in handy, but I dont know how much...) so the IS on the lens which brings its price up to 400. Without IS it is $195

Etaf, you are right, the 300mm will give me a resulting 480mm which I hope is enough.

Condyk, I have heard of camera lockups with Sigma/Tamron lenses which I assume should not happen with the Canon.

I'm a novice and I just bought the Canon digital rebel (300D) and the 75-300mm IS lens. These are the pictures I took in Feb when I was on Safari in South Africa.

Maybe it will help you decide. All the pictures were taken at full auto.

http://ca.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/cfordca@rogers.com/album?.dir=/8a36&.src=ph&.tok=phV1bCDB2N1lLNyf

One hint, keep the camera in manual focus. In autofocus, the camera often gets fooled by branches and stuff to focus on. So you may want to manual focus.

Hope it helps. I used the 75-300mm every day on Safari, but I did find that the 75-300mm has a limited use outside of the safari. (incase you were wondering how close we were for the really close shots, the last picture gives you an idea for the good lion shots).

[ShadowFlyP]

Icecamp, regarding the teleconverter lenses, any particular brand? What about it's diameter to fit over the 70-200mm lense? Any comments?


The teleconverter actually fits behind the lens. Canon makes a 1.4x that will work well with the 70-200. Someone else would have to verify if the 2x will work with that lens.

[Andy_T]

You might also want to consider the Sigma 100-300/4.0 EX APO lens. It's just a bit more expensive than the Canon 70-200/4.0 but has a longer range. It will still autofocus with the 1.4 converter and give you 420 mm focal length. (672 mm on a film camera, if you take the crop factor into consideration)

If you want to use manual focus (which I don't consider easy, but which was mentioned), then you can should be able to get a great manual focus 300/4.0 lens in M42 or Nikon lens mount for $ 150.

Best regards,
Andy

[condyk]

One hint, keep the camera in manual focus. In autofocus, the camera often gets fooled by branches and stuff to focus on. So you may want to manual focus.


I wouldn't recommend that unless you have to ... most of the animals don't hide in bush. MF is slower and less precise much of the time. You will end upwith a lot of semi focused shots! Single centre point AF is better.

Even shy animals in bush (or more like scrub really!) will walk and you can anticipate where they are heading if you use basic intelligence, so you're ready to shoot when they are in space. Some guided safari's are run by jaded people who just go, stop, go, stop without always wanting to sit quiet for a while.

I also wouldn't recommend a 200 or 300mm lens alone, even with the crop factor, or you just get shots of animals fairly close by. Often better shots might be with groups or individual animals further away. Why people recommend 200mm zooms for this kind of work I have NO idea!? Far too restrictive.

Andy's suggestion of a 100-300mm F4 with 1.4x is excellent. I bought mine based on experience in many of the parks through South Africa and Namibia. I depends where you are of course ... if you're on a private reserve then the animals may be closer and more used to the regular tourist drives. In a large National Park, away from the accommodation areas, things are often very different. The F4 offers just a bit more lower light performance through the range than some of the bigger (and cheaper) zooms and that's important when much of the best spotting is at near dusk and near dawn.

If I was really limited on space and cash I would major on the zoom quality and length and then make do with a 50mm II for everything else.

The 70-200mm F4 and 2.0x doesn't work well. I had one and the AF was often unusable, even in only slightly less than optimum light. The 1.4x is Ok, but you are really skimping on length. Tricky eh?

[clintd1369]

scrubca, you have some great photos. Am just checking them out.

ShadowflyP, I found that out after making the post ;-) but thanks. I guess I led myself to believe it would be on the front because of the so called "teleconverters" sold for the point & shoot.

Condyk and Andy, you are both right about the lenses but unfortunately I have to tighten my budget, and I think that the good optics on the 70-200 F/4 L with the TC should cover me upto 280mm and throwing in the 1.6 cropping factor should bring me to 448. I hope I'm not being too optimistic (or I may have to bribe the driver to get a bit closer ;-) - kidding)

I am seriously worried about camera shake though as this weekend we tried the camera in a local store, and not being someone who is experienced with an SLR I have to say that everytime we tried a long range shot, the camera shook! Any tips and tricks (besides the bean bag & monopod)?

Since this will be our first ever safari, we plan to enjoy every last minute of it and will try not to hop skip and jump all day long like those jaded folk. I wonder if they actually enjoy it at all.