Who are the pro's?

[MAD DOG]

As a "relative newbie" I think it would be GREAT if the pro's had an identifying mark next to their site name, so that when they gave feedback to the less experienced photographers we would know someone with substantial experience was giving reliable advice.

Is this practicle, or would it be devicesive?

I know we would be reliant upon their integrity to be honest about their position ie: whether they are or are not pro's.

What do you pro's think.

[cmM]

As a "relative newbie" I think it would be GREAT if the pro's had an identifying mark next to their site name, so that when they gave feedback to the less experienced photographers we would know someone with substantial experience was giving reliable advice.
What makes you think Pro's always have experience, and always give reliable advice.
Some amateurs are far better than professional photographers.

I've seen pros that suck :-P

[PhotosGuy]

Well, that won't always work! See the bottom of this thread, for instance:
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=63143
:D:D:D:D;)

Actually, this forum is self-policing. When someone is wrong, & sometimes when they're right, someone else will jump in & dispute what was said. Just count the "Yeas" & "Nays" & you'll be pretty close to the truth.

[MAD DOG]

PhotosGuy,

Checked that link out, had me laghing my socks off :lol:

I understand that some so called pro's can't take a good shot to save there lives, and likewise that there are many people taking photographs as a hobby that can produce outstanding images.

My suggestion was certainly never posted with any intention of upsetting the latter.

Just thought it might help to identify good advice from bad.

I think it's commendable when you pro's do take the time to help us less experienced, but equally keen, photographers, by giving constructive critiques and advice.

Feedback, both positive and negative can only serve to improve our skills.

Thanks for taking the time out to respond to this thread. It is VERY MUCH appretiated. ;)

[cyclone]

I remember that link, but before Bloo Dog made his remarks. He cracks me up.

[Digital Prophet]

<<~~ Just an amatuer that gets to cash checks.

Seriously though. Besides the likes of Bloo Dog, CharlesU, IndyJeff and RobertWGross (and that leaves out so many good memebers) there are lots of talented and knowledgeable people hear. It doesn't take long to determine who style is a close match for your own current style or the one you hope to achieve. And once you figure that out it is easy to take note of thier posts and to get some really good advice.

But not from me. I just talk smack.

- Digital Prophet -

[MAD DOG]

I have seen much of CharlesU's work and find it awesome.
I do not have a particular aspiration for any one particular area, but have always had a real appretiation of artistic shots that show the female form in a tasteful and flattering manner.
CharlesU most certainly has that ability, and I think any woman who poses for him can be assured of impressive results.
I look forward to identifying those who have particular prowess with respect to areas such as people, and animals and nature.
I will certainly watch for those you have identified above.
A BIG thank you to you all

[DaveG]

What makes you think Pro's always have experience, and always give reliable advice.
Some amateurs are far better than professional photographers.

I've seen pros that suck :-P

To me the biggest difference between an amateur and a pro is that a pro MUST make a good shot NOW no matter what's going on. An amateur can choose to make no shot at all until conditions are perfect.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Part of the reason for the "Pro" forum is that hopefully when a question is asked of the pros,. it is the pros that answer.

Of course it's not allways the case.. but it's a pretty good indicator.

that said,. I have reponded in the Pro Forum to a question in this thread and I am not a Pro...
Somone Ban me for a week,. I need a break!

[stoneylonesome]

Just keep in mind that the only difference in Pro and amatuer is that the pro gets paid. Bobby Jones, one of the all time great golfers was never a PRO.

[MAD DOG]

Hmmmmm.:confused:

That's throws an interesting perspective on things.

Could just save me a lot of money too. I will have to think about it.......................



Thought about it, and I have concluded that I'm going to keep on trying in the hope of becoming as good as some of the people that post incredible images on the forum. ;)

[blinking8s]

I wanna be a pro...has a nice ring to it :)

i might get paid for it all, but im def NOT pro...lol...gotta get out of college before I even think about boosting ego like that

[DaveG]

Just keep in mind that the only difference in Pro and amatuer is that the pro gets paid. Bobby Jones, one of the all time great golfers was never a PRO.

I wonder if he could make that putt when feeding his family was on the line? He never had to did he?

There a couple of absolutely excellent amateur photographers around here who do magazine level work. But they won't work on assignment because of that pressure to perform now, right away; and to someone else's standards. If they come up with something in their own time and comfort level then they'll happily sell that.

The lack, or presence of pressure can affect people in funny ways. Some pro's don't do well in a no end-use situation since there's a fair bit of "I don't care about this do I?" aspect of it. And many amateurs won't do well in a situation where there could be failure, and failure as determined by someone else. Both could do the job on their own terms, but not on the others.

[stoneylonesome]

I wonder if he could make that putt when feeding his family was on the line? He never had to did he?

There a couple of absolutely excellent amateur photographers around here who do magazine level work. But they won't work on assignment because of that pressure to perform now, right away; and to someone else's standards. If they come up with something in their own time and comfort level then they'll happily sell that.

The lack, or presence of pressure can affect people in funny ways. Some pro's don't do well in a no end-use situation since there's a fair bit of "I don't care about this do I?" aspect of it. And many amateurs won't do well in a situation where there could be failure, and failure as determined by someone else. Both could do the job on their own terms, but not on the others.

I couldn't agree more with what you say. seems like the old adage works here sometimes also "Those who can do, Those who can't teach" :lol:
Your local newspaper photographer is a PRO, but he/she may not be the best one to get advice from when it comes to photograpy.

[jfrancho]

I must admit that there are some professional photographers who give really good adviceBloo dog is one of the rare few that really do offer great advice.

[Red]

How about we stop using the word Pro so much, and introduce our new best friend, the Expert?

Technically, I'm a pro, but that doesn't mean you should listen to me more than other very talented and more practiced amateurs here

[jfrancho]

Part of the fun of this forum is discovering subject matter experts through written conversation. Any labels would surely exclude this part of the process, since we would be looking to these supposed "SME's" for their advice. We would have to test for profinciencies, and issue certifications for those seeking these positions. Sounds like a job to me. "Hello, I'm John, your POTN Certified Depth of Field SME."

[PhotosGuy]

Someones definition: An "Expert" is someone from out of town who charges a lot of $s & carries an attache case!

[Red]

Me too. I always get my assistant to carry my attache

[rdenney]

Let me offer some definitions that avoid having to define who is an "expert":

Amateur Photographer: One who does photography for the love of doing photography.

Commercial Photographer: One who does photography for money.

Professional Photographer: One who "professes" to the world that he or she is available as a commercial photograper.

Thus, anyone can call themselves a pro, even someone who has not yet made any money doing it.

I am an amateur photographer who had done considerable commercial work but who has only briefly been a pro.

Now, an expert is someone who has a mastery of a subject. It would appear to me that any of my three photographers above can be an expert. What is the difference between an amateur photographer and a commerical photographer? The amateur is not making a photograph to someone else's specification. That's all. Ansel Adams called it "assignments from within" rather than "assignments from without". When he made a picture of Half Dome at Yosemite in 1927, he was an amateur. Before he won his Guggenheim Fellowship, most of his images that we know today were made as an amateur. He had many commercial assignments, but few of those from before he was paid to follow his own lead are how we remember him.

How do you identify an expert? Experience is one measure, education another. Neither of those is completely reliable. But an expert can always 1.) explain why he recommends a particular approach, and 2.) give examples from his or others' experience supporting that recommendation. So, that's how you judge posts. If they explain their point of view clearly and give good examples, then you are empowered to judge whether their answer is correct. It's the dogmatic dictations of opinion without supporting evidence that can only be evaluated based on credentials, and then those are not too reliable, either.

Besides, who ever said the best teachers are the best practitioners?

Rick "who has learned much from those who are less skilled but more insightful" Denney

[DaveG]

Let me offer some definitions that avoid having to define who is an "expert":

Amateur Photographer: One who does photography for the love of doing photography.

Commercial Photographer: One who does photography for money.

Professional Photographer: One who "professes" to the world that he or she is available as a commercial photograper.

Thus, anyone can call themselves a pro, even someone who has not yet made any money doing it.

I am an amateur photographer who had done considerable commercial work but who has only briefly been a pro.

Now, an expert is someone who has a mastery of a subject. It would appear to me that any of my three photographers above can be an expert. What is the difference between an amateur photographer and a commerical photographer? The amateur is not making a photograph to someone else's specification. That's all. Ansel Adams called it "assignments from within" rather than "assignments from without". When he made a picture of Half Dome at Yosemite in 1927, he was an amateur. Before he won his Guggenheim Fellowship, most of his images that we know today were made as an amateur. He had many commercial assignments, but few of those from before he was paid to follow his own lead are how we remember him.

How do you identify an expert? Experience is one measure, education another. Neither of those is completely reliable. But an expert can always 1.) explain why he recommends a particular approach, and 2.) give examples from his or others' experience supporting that recommendation. So, that's how you judge posts. If they explain their point of view clearly and give good examples, then you are empowered to judge whether their answer is correct. It's the dogmatic dictations of opinion without supporting evidence that can only be evaluated based on credentials, and then those are not too reliable, either.

Besides, who ever said the best teachers are the best practitioners?

Rick "who has learned much from those who are less skilled but more insightful" Denney


I would say that a professional photographer is one who makes the majority of their income from photographic sales. That means that the market place decides who a professional is. A commercial photographer is a specialist in a certain area of photography, at least its the generally accepted definition of commercial photographer as I know it.

Ansel Adams is interesting. He was a commercial photographer with commercial clients. He also had patrons that allowed him to do fine art photography full time. I also think that he made his images to satisfy the expectation of those patrons. He may well have trained them to accept HIS ideas but the patrons would have made judgements about the value of the work they were supporting. Adams would have been a fool to not realize this. Ansel also didn't become ANSEL ADAMS until the 60's when he hired a publiscist that turned him into a well deserved icon. Until then he sold 8x10's for a pittance; lived hand to mouth like most artists, and fed himself with handouts and commercial work.

[rdenney]

I would say that a professional photographer is one who makes the majority of their income from photographic sales. That means that the market place decides who a professional is. A commercial photographer is a specialist in a certain area of photography, at least its the generally accepted definition of commercial photographer as I know it.

Your definitions don't square with the meaning of the words, however. I am licensed in several states to be a professional engineer, but I do not have to make a nickel as an engineer either to get or maintain those licenses. Yet I work for a company that has commercial intent for my professional engineering. I could live on my inheritance (if I had any which I don't) and donate my services to charity and still be a professional engineer.

I've done quite a bit of commercial photography, and by that I mean I was paid to do it and did it to specifications provided by the customer. Those projects ranged from catalog photos to weddings to portraits for technical magazines to product shots for brochures to groups portraits to even once a cover photo of a technical journal. The only common element was that I did the work to spec and was paid for it. I knew what I needed to get out of each exposure, and why. With few exceptions, I was not a professional photographer when I did those projects because I did not claim to be one. I already had a profession, after all.

Until photography is regulated by states like engineering, anyone who wants to call themselves a pro will be able to. Whether that nets them any commercial success is another matter.

And being a commercial success has little to do with photographic expertise and skill, frankly. We have all seen substandard work that commanded a price because it was offered by a good salesman. But it met the requirements of the customer, and working to spec is what being a commercial photographer is all about. It's a bit naive to think that expertise and skill are uniformly rewarded.

Rick "who thinks neither 'professional' nor 'commercial' imply any particular status, but expertise and skill does" Denney

[mrclark321]

How about "Advice from the more experienced photographers" Anybody can be a PRO, Experience is something you learn over time!


Dan

[KennyG]

As someone who has the label 'pro' I would like to throw in a couple of comments. A lot of us don't bother giving advice these days as there are too many so called 'experts' that know better than we do. They are generally people without experience, without knowledge of the problem or equipment being discussed, but they are suddenly the world's leading authority when it comes to posting responses. The advice from most pros is ignored anyway, so tell me why we should get involved.

I have always tried to help, based on over 25 years experience and being longer in digital than most. I now find myself skipping over the question threads as I would be wasting my time responding. People want an answer that suits them, not always the right answer, but the world is like that I suppose.

I mainly confine my help to people I meet in person rather than join in the confusion of 20 answers to every question posted here and elsewhere. The constant putting down of the professional community by some does not help either. Those that know me in person will vouch for me and my willingness to help, but I am afraid on here it is like joining in a bar room brawl and I have better things to do with my time.

[PhotosGuy]

The advice from most pros is ignored anyway, so tell me why we should get involved. Not anything we can do about that. If it's taken or not, we did what we could, no? People have changed my mind before & I'm sure will again. ;-)

[cricket]

To me, the definition of a "Pro" is someone who gets paid for their work... Doesn't mean to me that they are able to dish up good, sound advice.

I like the term "Expert" and also not so Expert. This could be someone who failed miserably and has some great advice!

Also, to me, a "Pro" who gives good advice has dealt successfully with the business side of photography, customer service, marketing, sales. Not just making nice photos.

Something that has bothered me for 20 years in this business: Professional jealousy. Many "Pros" that I have met don't want to give out their "secrets." I think it's a little better now, especially with a forum like this. But, I ran into another one just the other week.

It's good that so many of us are willing, and even happy to share our advice, techniques, ideas, failures, etc.

As with any advice, you take it with a grain of salt, take the portion out of it that you can believe/use/relate to, and discard the rest!

[CappuccinoDavid]

well to tell you the truth a weekend shooter will tell you more than a pro because a pro most of the time is protecting his livelyhood. Like I wouldn't tell you stuff with PS that can hurt me, for I make my living with it and my photography is the same. I would teach my comp. all I know because he will use it agains me. Does that make sense.

[Maureen Souza]

Personally, I don't know why this matters so much. I take photographs for other people...sometimes I get a little money for it, sometimes I do it for a gift, sometimes I do it for practice. The important thing to me is that it is fun and I love doing it. I also know that my opinion of a great photograph may not be another's. I also know that I will alway continue to learn more and try new things.

I think most of us here on the forum love pictures and we try to capture what we think is of value to us to preserve for future generations. And that is what matters most. I am not trying to sound philosophical, but I think it is irrelevent as to who is "Pro" or "Expert".
Happy Shooting!!

[CappuccinoDavid]

Personally, I don't know why this matters so much. I take photographs for other people...sometimes I get a little money for it, sometimes I do it for a gift, sometimes I do it for practice. The important thing to me is that it is fun and I love doing it. I also know that my opinion of a great photograph may not be another's. I also know that I will alway continue to learn more and try new things.

I think most of us here on the forum love pictures and we try to capture what we think is of value to us to preserve for future generations. And that is what matters most. I am not trying to sound philosophical, but I think it is irrelevent as to who is "Pro" or "Expert".
Happy Shooting!!

Yes your right...

That is why I'm here, I enjoyed photography since I was 16, to bad we didn't have the internet then. Well too bad we didn't have computers then. But I love hanging around other photograhers (which then at the time was much much older then me) I did learn from them, as much as I could. I've read many many books. But you can learn more from others than you can from books. For I didn't ask what f-stop he had the camera set on. I ask what he was thinking at the time. How he was derecting the model and plus why he used the light that way. Now I'm 44 years old and I still ask the same. For I went to school to learn how to operate the camera so it will become second nature to me. But I learn ever shoot is different, even if you have the same lighting and same model, its different. I guess I'm in a different mood. But what I like about this Forum is you get other peoples input.

Now back to the post. Their is no place that ask you what your race is, or how you beleive in God. So I don't think we should ask if your a pro or not. Because all the years I been shooting I still can learn from someone whom been in photography less than a year.

That is my input...

[jfrancho]

David,
If you apply that logic to every venture, you'll see much success. Well put.