Teenaged Girls

[KevC]

This post has questions sensitive issues, if moderators decide this is an inappropriate topic for this place, I apologize in advance.

While relaxing at the cottage, a friend and I were flipping through Elle magazine, September 2004 issue. While she was looking at the fashion, I was looking at photographic technique, trying to learn something from it. I am personally very picky about looks. I recognize beauty, however it takes a *lot* for me to actually say "Wow, she truly is beautiful". (Not sure how that sounds, but please don't think of me as a shallow teenaged male)

After flipping through the entire issue (it's big and thick) and talking about both fashion *and* photography, there was one model that really stood out for me. I found her truly beautiful. The photography, combined with the model's good looks just dropped my heart. It seemed that everyone agreed with me.

Once I got home, I searched the net for this model. I found her, dutch supermodel Kemp Muhl. I even found scans of that Elle magazine on this page:

http://www.bwgreyscale.com/editorials/2004_09-1.html (7th section, second photo really floored me)

After looking around even more, I found a little interview of her. I was surprised to hear that she was only 15.

Fifteen.

No Jacko jokes please, I was shocked myself. In the world of tank-top tees, and miniskirts, dressing sexually alluring is almost a norm for preteens. Of course I completely agree pedophilia is a definite problem (taking advantage of an immature mind, let alone sexual abuse) but the fact that I was (jokingly) falling in love with a girl that's 4 years younger is a little disturbing.

It's true that we all had raging hormones going through highschool, we all started liking the other sex (or same sex... I'm not going to be discriminating) at an even younger age. I've even had a 17 year old like me, but I didn't let that go anywhere because of the age difference (only 2, but at this age, it's a big difference I believe), or even just how young she was.

I might be blowing this way out of proportion. I am definitely not one to go to Catholic high schools to peep at young girls in their uniforms. It's just the fact that I found the girl so attractive (not only sexually, but in fashion.. sex appeal usually comes into play) that bothers me.

Your thoughts please.

(P.S., I'm deathly afraid of the time my sister hits the teens... I'll be watching her male friends like a hawk)

[Carzee]

I looked at the fashion shots. Yeah, she has adopted all the mag's looks. Its a factory look, a cloned thing IMHO. What would Elle editors do about her under-age situation? Nothing, they're complicit. Its they're 'normal' stock-in-trade...

[Vetteography]

She is attractive, but not as goddess-like as you made out, but then again, I don't like the waif (or even the bad-girl-waif) look.

I don't have a problem with mentioning how attractive a girl is, as long as that is as far as it goes. :D

[KevC]

Hehe. I'm still a photography newbie, so a nice shot for me can be completely off for a seasoned photog. And yes, looks are subjective, so what I think is goddess-like... other's may completely disagree.

But this thread was never meant to discuss how beautiful (or not) she is. I completely agree with Vetteography, but it just seems like these days it's forbidden to comment on the attractiveness of an underaged girl....

.. or maybe it's just me?

[BlueTit]

Hehe. I'm still a photography newbie, so a nice shot for me can be completely off for a seasoned photog.

Who says to professionals would agree on what is a nice shot anyway??

Interesting situation you are in, but it happens all the time, particularly males for females, because females can more easily dress and look older than males. No harm done, provided it goes no further and in this case that is not likely. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

[tim]

There's no way that girl looks 15, they way she's dressed and made up, I wouldn't give this another thought if I were you.

My photography club had a professional fashion photographer come and visit us last week, he's had his photos on the cover of vogue and a bunch of other magazines, and gets flown around the world to do shoots. He told us big modelling agencies will take girls as young as 12 to start grooming them for when they're in their prime, which is apparently 16-20 (remember i'm repeating what I was told, not stating an opinion). He said big Japanese companies, who spend a fortune on models, won't even look at a girl if she's 18 and hasn't been on the cover of a big magazine. He also said if girls start to think about getting into modelling in their 20s it's already too late, unless they're exceptional.

As an aside, this guy's been doing fashion for years, using large format in the studio and 35mm for outside location shoots. He was asked a question about whether he used primes or zooms, and didn't know what a prime was. He answered only about large format, he only uses primes on them, i'm not even sure if you can get zooms for those beasts. When asked about what 35mm camera he used, he said "some standard Canon EOS 35mm". To me, he was a guy who made the scene he wanted, and happened to take a photograph of it, and he didn't seem to care so much about equipment as many people.

[Tom W]

http://www.bwgreyscale.com/editorials/2004_09-1.html (7th section, second photo really floored me)


What really floored me was the prices of some of those garments! That's some L glass she's wearing there!!

[JAZZ D.P.G.]

:shock: Somebody feed that girl, and something more substantial than a diet milkshake:shock:

I've been concerned about models and what they will do to "make it" in that profession. And what some agency/customers demand for the industry.

I avoid magazines that glorify such work, and am quite vocal when I hear my nieces carry on about this stuff. This can be very dangerous to young and impressionable people.

Not hard to avoid the clothing, nothing there for the real world.

But then again, nothing in those spreads is real anyway.:confused: Make believe world, make believe lives, make believe values.

Geez, the damage they do.

[Pyromaniac]

I think it's sort of funny that if a guy who is 22 tries to pick up a 17 year old girl it's wrong becuase shes under age (18 is considered legaly an adult in the U.S. but not sure about other countries), but it a guy is 30 and tries to pick up a 25 year old women no one would blink an eye about it. It's the same age difference either way. As long as the age difference is only a FEW years (5 or less), whats the difference?

[KevC]

I think it's sort of funny that if a guy who is 22 tries to pick up a 17 year old girl it's wrong becuase shes under age (18 is considered legaly an adult in the U.S. but not sure about other countries), but it a guy is 30 and tries to pick up a 25 year old women no one would blink an eye about it. It's the same age difference either way. As long as the age difference is only a FEW years (5 or less), whats the difference?

I believe the age difference matters less and less as the age is higher and higher. 40 year old William Randolph Hearst married 22 year old Millicent Willson. I believe the biggest changes in maturity occur during the later teenaged years. When I was 17, I believed I matured way more than when I was 16. Same with 18, and 19... and soon enough, 20. These few years are when the human mind really grows and understands life.

Sure, some relationships are fun but as JAZZ D.P.G. pointed out, kids are extremely impressionable at those ages.

JAZZ D.P.G. is completely right, it seems very dangerous as many runway models are borderline anorexic. I do believe, however, to some degree, as long as the correct values are taught, and the kids understand they must decide right from wrong, good from bad, it's not so bad.

However, we are, again, straying from the topic at hand. Thank you, tim, for pointing out that I have nothing to worry about. After watching a fashion shoot (the same video as the interview) I can definitely tell she's a very young girl. It still does not change the fact that I find her incredibly attractive, which makes me feel dirty.

Of course, as I stated before, if I was presented with such a situation, I'd definitely wait till she has grown older, or put any relationship over a fun friendship out of my mind.

[skade]

IMO she is very beautiful, but definately does not look 15! But then I was 14 when I started getting into nightclubs here.. with legal age being 18! With the right make-up, hair and outfit, no one ever questioned my age. Now I am 36..but look about 28..and am engaged to a man who is 27. The age thing doesnt affect us in any way, but we do have the occasional laugh when we think about things like, when I was finishing high school at 15... he was 6 and in year 1!!! That sounds so wrong lol

[Claire]

She's 15 and you're 19, correct? Yes, I do agree there usually (not necessarily) a difference in personal maturity between a 15y/o and a 19y/o. Definitely more so than the 25y/o and the 29y/o.

I remember in 7th grade it was status for a girl to date a 9th grader. When you were 15 it was status to date someone in senior high. I'm pretty sure that's still the case. Girls will continue to be attracted to older guys because...they're older (and we keep hoping they're maturer than guys our age).

Of course you'll find the girls (couldn't see the pic now) in fashion mags attracted, but that's because they're made up to look older. They're dressed like 20-somethings and their poses are provocative etc. You're reacting like any other normal male. It's a fanatasy those images are catering to. Same with the 15y/o girls who has posters of Orlando Bloom in a wet white shirt (naturally open to the waist). Just the age difference is reversed.

At my high school I knew lots of girls who dated guys who were in their 20's. It takes two to date, so most likely the neither party have a problem with it and were happy. At the same time I do know of girls who get used by guys in their 20's. It's such a status thing to date someone in that age group, and it's very easy for a guy to find some girl who's eager to date him only because of his age. I've seen a few girls at the school I work with that have gotten quite messed up by dating older guys. An older guy expects totally different things from a relationship, and many times the girl isn't prepaired for those things, or go along with them to keep him.

[PhotosGuy]

It still does not change the fact that I find her incredibly attractive, which makes me feel dirty. Don't sweat it, Kevin. It's hard wired into your genes. (Jeans?) ;-)

[Andy_T]

I remember reading that girls normally look some (e.g. 5) years older in fashion shots than they really are (maybe some kind of X-factor :lol: )... and this is the very reason why the talent scouts search for girls as young as possible.

But then, it might be utter BS. Don't remember where I read it.

But I also have to add that this girl looks like 15 to me, if I look at her eyes...

Best regards,
Andy

[cmM]

I'm 21 ... my girlfriend's 18 ... does that make me a perv? :-P

[Andy_T]

... only if you already knew her last year :D

The following situation always bugged me ... consider a guy, age 15, and a girl, age 14 ... ok
They are together for one year... ok
They are together for one more year ... big problem
One year more ... it's ok again.

Weird, huh?

I recently read a survey in a weekly magazine that stated that 'the average girl' today has her first boyfriend at age 13, nowadays :shock:
I have to add that I felt very relieved when my 2 kids both turned out to be boys :lol:

Best regards,
Andy

[roanjohn]

What you are looking at is a combination of make-up artist, stylist, photogs, editors, some heavy heavy retouching............with one purpose in mind - to SELL SELL SELL!!! And it worked on you!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: Trust me, you had nothing to do with it!!!!

Ro1

[rdenney]

William F. Buckley, that most ultra-conservative of ultra-conservatives, was quoting someone when he said "a fifteen-year-old girl is nature's smashing success". Or something to that effect.

The point is that 18 is an entirely arbitrary date. Beauty in the category of sexual appeal, begins at puberty. And males begin being attracted at about that age. That part is hard-wired into our biology.

The question is not the reaction, but rather what you do about it. And that depends on the norms of a particular culture. In most states of the U.S., doing anything more than quiet and inconspicuous admiration would likely get a man question, and any form of stalking or touching would get him arrested. Going beyond that would put him in prison for statutory rape, whether or not the girl was willing. In many cultures, girls are given away in arranged marriages at much younger ages.

I find it odd that few realize the close correlation between 15-year-olds dressing suggestively and the need for ever-tougher laws concerning the behavior of men. Okay, men who can't control themselves deserve to be locked up, but can't the girls in question give the rest of us a break and cover the hell up? When a young teen girl dresses in low-cut jeans that expose her hip bones, and shorts that require a bikini wax, that there is no man, and few women for that matter, who can avoid looking. The girls complain about creepy people who sneak peeks. Yet, they dress that way to attract just that attention--there could be no other reason--the clothing can't be that comfortable. There is something remarkably hypocritical about that.

But it's nothing new. The common dress for such girls now is pretty similar to the hippie-inspired clothing of my own youth.

Rick "old enough to remember when older men could compliment young girls on their beauty without being creepy" Denney

[Claire]

My male friend and I worked at the same school (6-9th grade) last year. I'm still working there. It was around this time of the year and very sunny. We were both a bit surprised by the amount of short skirts and skin shown by the girls (all ages).
There was a 6th grader who wore makeup that made her look much older, but her eyes were still a young girl's. Yes, my friend and I did have a discussion about the amount of skin shown, and the sexual way the girls moved when performing in the music talent contest. We felt so OLD when we found ourselves going "but, I don't remember girls dressing like that when WE were in 9th grade!". :o

Having a boyfriend/girlfriend is nowadays probably as much of a "must" as having a "best friend" was/is. I recently read an article though that says the average age for Swedes to lose their virginity is 17. It was that when I was in high school. Kinda nice to see that even though they show more skin, know tons more about sex than I ever did etc, they aren't jumping into bed at 13. Hm, although I know of quite a few girls who are on the pill at the age of 14/15. Gosh, now I feel even more old! Working in a school and hearing the kids talk is kinda scary at times.

[CyberPet]

Here in Sweden the legal age is 15 when it comes to *that*. I have no idea how I could sneak into pub's and bars when I was 16 (the age to buy beer and wine of the counter in a restaurant and a bar is 18 in Sweden), and when I turned 18 I had to show my ID all the time. I guess I didn't put much effort in "looking older" when I had hit the legal age to buy beer, but when I was 16 I did, so I could fool the bouncers to let me in.

Today I'm 42, going on 43, and been mistaken for 27 (that's a *big* difference and makes me happy each time someone is guessing I'm around 30 when I'm in fact are over 40).

My husband is 9 years younger than me.... in many ways he's more mature than I am, even if he's younger than me. So I guess I got what I deserved (now if I only had the same stamina as I had when I was 30).

Anyway... getting a bit off topic here... all magazines seem to want girls to skip their teens and become grown women, instead of being the age they are. Now that I've done it, been there and got a few t-shirts, I know that it's important to be your age. May it be 15 or 42, you gotta be that age too, or you miss out on important stuff.

Looking at photo's in a fashion magazine is not only fooling other girls, but also fools men, to think that these young girls are more grown-up and know more than they actually do. Maybe that's also why so many date rapes occurs, since there's a lot of mis-comunnication. "She looked and dressed like she wanted it", while the girl just thought that it's how you should dress and look, and had no idea what signals her appearance was sending out.

Ok, I'll ponder on this for a bit longer... hmmm....

[Sean-Mcr]

In the uk it's 16, but if a 20 year old was to sleep a with a 16 year old, legal as it is. People would still have something to say about it.

She is a beautiful girl, no doubt about it. The photos are not trying to make her out to be some sort of lolita, they're not focusing on her age, just her beauty. I personally see nothing sexual about her, be her 15 or 30. I just think she's beautiful

[KevC]

All this talk has gotten me more and more worried, not about myself (I would never dare touch a girl of that age) but of what my sister will start to dress as she gets older... She's only 10 now, but I don't doubt she'll start dressing as Rick stated in no more than a few years.

CyberPet: You look 25 :)

Maturity is the biggest question. Besides sexual abuse (which is awful at *any* age), the fact that young girls are pressured into thinking some things are "cool", and they are forced into believing other things is a great problem.

Sean-Mcr, I know I sound like I'm boasting as I say this, but unlike a the average teen male, I do not have sex in my mind 24/7. Even when I was looking through the magazine, there were definitely some images using sex appeal, but this model in particular just made my heart skip a beat. And no, it had nothing to do with sex. As you said, I just found her absolutely beautiful.

The reason it made me think twice when I found out her age was because the kind of "I think you're beautiful" was the kind I would say to a girl I'd consider dating. Not towards a child, in which case I'd call a friend's daughter beautiful.

If attraction and sex are inseperable, then I have no words for this. However, I'll try to be clear (writing coherent thoughts isn't my forte, rofl...), Me looking at her and saying "wow" didn't have me and her in bed in my mind.

//edit: As for legal issues: www.ageofconsent.com
14 for Canada. Way. Too. Young.
But I read an article somewhere, most girls lose their virginity as young as that.... scary as it seems.

[DocFrankenstein]

Wow... talk about social engineering and media doing a good job on you man. :confused:

Females are fully capable of carrying kids at 14... 100 years ago 18 years old unmarried women were old maids. (send me some of those :D )

So it's a perfectly natural response to feel aroused when the girl has developed normally... even if she's 13-14. The issue is the choice to act on it.

In many instances paedophilia is similar to photography, both of them make a good story on the media and always get blown out of proportion.

But to feel guilty about it? Never... She's 16, so it's legal.

I think the actual issue of sex is not that big of a deal, it's her big brother's ruined image of purity and innocence... which never matches the reality. :twisted:

I'm deathly afraid of the time my sister hits the teens... I'll be watching her male friends like a hawk
It's inevitable man. You can't be there all the time and the chances are you won't even see "the guy" at all, cause he'd be smart enough to avoid you. Just watch out for stuff like "going to the library to study" and "just hanging out with friends", cause it will happen.

And even you're there to prevent it and rid her of "that guy", she'll resent you for that and will do it just to make a point.

The imagery is not very good, but you have to just accept it. Girls grow up, they try things. And it's not as bad as you think, I know more than a couple girls who've been sexually active since 14-15 and they turned out great.

Or you can send her to a monastery, but I don't think there are any in toronto. :lol:

Coming from a guy with 3 cousins who are going through that phase one by one.

[Claire]

"Send her to a monastery..." LOL Doubt that'd work either. Look at all the girls and boys who were sent to Catholic/Muslim schools. When they get the chance they go bananas... ;)

[berrylish]

wow...15...shes gorgeous. I don't think they're trying to portray her in a sexual way either. But I can see why it would make you "feel dirty." You can't tell how old she is from looking at that picture and thought of her as someone you would have dated.

I'm almost 23 and I've been carded at the theaters for a rated R movie ;_; how sad.

[trickyricky]

Beauty is beauty - no matter what the age. I do a "double-take" when I see a beautiful girl/woman. I married to a beautiful woman. I also have four daughters - one who is 17. I know what your saying... I feel strange when I look at girls my daughters age! Yesterday I was at my sons basketball game and saw a beautiful girl that should have been photographed..... her age?? I dunno - maybe 15? I don't think there is a problem looking at beauty as long as you keep your rageing testosterone in check. oh... berrylish - I'd "card" you too. ;-)

[kempsfriend]

Kemp just turned 18. She may have been 15 in the pictures you saw.

As for the person who made a comment about "waif" or "what some girls would do to be in the fashion industry", I think you should direct your comments where appropriate, and that place is not here. Kemp probably eats as much or more than any girl. The difference between you and her is that she does something called exercise. Trust me, I just saw her 10 hours ago, as I do almost every day.

[zacker]

i think she needs to grab some Hostess Twinkies and a few Milkshakes and go sit on a couch for awhile and gain a few pounds... then finish High School, go to college an learn a career for when the modeling thing goes belly up... which it will, sooner than later.. when the "next big thing" comes along!

As for sexy?? not really, more like a kid in mommy's makeup and clothes... sorry, but you can see the makeup they plastered on her, she should be learning life with her little friends like everyone else... not from the "in" crowd from the fashion world.
-zacker-

[KevC]

Woah, why is this thread still alive *embarassed*.

kempsfriend: I exercise :) I never said anything about her being anorexic but she seems a little thin. Let her know she has one more admirer of her beauty, if that's not too pedophilic. :o

[Wazza]

Don't see how that is paedophillic Kev. ;)
You're 20.. Close enough to her age.

BTW, you share the same birthday as myself. I'm just a couple years crazier.

As for Kemp, she's pretty fine.