Sold Myself Short... Can I Fix This?

[Tumeg]

I had a meeting with a couple, regarding me shooting their wedding (This will be my 8th wedding, but only my 3rd on my own). They asked how much I usually charged, and I explained to them that I have really only done weddings for couples with low-budgets [so far]. I asked them what their budget was, and they didn't exactly answer, so I just said it would be $200 to rent a back-up\second camera, and then $50 for "other expenses" (to rent a 70-200). Then I told them, for my time, it would be another $200 (I have NO idea what I was thinking...).

Before I gave them the price, I told them it would include the high res, edited files on CD along with a CD of smaller photos (with my watermark\logo on them) for posting on Facebook, and e-mailing to friends and family... The wedding will be 8 hours, ceremony + reception + formal pictures...

So I pretty much gave them the best that I offer, for a REALLY low price... (When I said earlier, I have only done weddings for couple's who can't afford much... I really mean\meant it... My last 2 weddings were 100 bucks each, and THAT cleared out their bank accounts)


Anyway, I was wondering if it would be possible for me to bump up the price a little? Maybe, make an excuse, or something?

Here is my, small, wedding portfolio (so you can see how much I should be charging, if more) http://photosbybradley.com/wedding/wedding.html

Sorry for the lengthy post!

[iAMB]

If you are in a written and signed contract, I think you might be stuck. If you are not in a signed contract, you should think about whether the price you offered is worth your time or if you should tell them that currently you are unable to produce the photos. You can also try negotiating the price, but you may find that they may move on from you. You may be a disappointment to them either way, but try to be professional about it.

[Moppie]

Anyway, I was wondering if it would be possible for me to bump up the price a little?


No good asking us, you need to ask the couple.

If you do, remember you could lose the deal altogether and sour any potential relationship.
And don't try and make up an excuse, any contact needs to be honest and above board, always.

Or, you could suck it up and follow though, accepting it as part of the learning process.
Try and work some extra business from it, the couple will have friends and family who maybe getting married in the future or might need portraits done etc.

Then sit down and work out a set of rates to use. Write them down somewhere, and next time someone asks you how much, you will have a base line to refernce and work from.

[Tumeg]

No good asking us, you need to ask the couple.

If you do, remember you could lose the deal altogether and sour any potential relationship.
And don't try and make up an excuse, any contact needs to be honest and above board, always.

Or, you could suck it up and follow though, accepting it as part of the learning process.
Try and work some extra business from it, the couple will have friends and family who maybe getting married in the future or might need portraits done etc.

Then sit down and work out a set of rates to use. Write them down somewhere, and next time someone asks you how much, you will have a base line to reference and work from.

Thanks for the quick replies, both of you!

iAMB: We have nothing written, or signed... Yet...

Moppie: Yeah, that probably would be my best\safest option...

[Karl Johnston]

How did you do a 100 $ wedding?

[Tumeg]

How did you do a 100 $ wedding?

I managed to book 3 other shoots that same weekend, so I could spread the cost of rentals, throughout the shoots, and they just got a CD of the low-res files... I didn't mind working an 8 hour wedding (The other $100 wedding was not even an hour, and there was no reception) for only $100, because I was really looking for experience, and stuff to expand my portfolio.

[cineraceus]

My opinion (from a non photographic business) is that if you change the price after you have given a quote, it gives the impression that you are untrustworthy...

Your reputation is worth much more than any one job.

[cdifoto]

Charge 'em what you quoted, provide what you said you'd provide, create awesome photos, smile a lot, and don't make the same mistake again.

[LBaldwin]

Brad, I hate to be the bringer of bad news but that is lousy business practices. I think you have been on this list often enough to KNOW what a wedding should cost, and what are and are not good business practices.

With the deals you are making you are hurting other photographers businesses in your area and yourself too! My guess is that you do not have a CA state resale permit so you are not charging taxes, and the same with a business license.

I like the way your images look and you should be charging more than what you have stated. But you are undercutting other photographers and taking income away from them, and then you come here to ask for assistance to get more money when you won't follow established business protocall, to even help yourself!!

As each "photographer" does this it changes the publics perception of the value of good photography, and in turn those tell others that it is Ok to bottom feed for prices. So those of us that need a certain amount of cash income each month find it harder and harder to quantify even reasonable amounts for good, solid image creation. Perception is everything.

You are not prepared to do business as a professional photographer as of yet. It is far more than just taking shots and handing over a CD for a few measly $$.

There will be plenty of others that will help you because you asked for it, but my guess is that you will continue to do as you wish with little regard to other photographers and their businesses.

Just think if you had used a contract, agreed upon a living wage with a built in profit, paid the sales taxes and gotten a business license how much more gear you could get and even save to make your business larger and actually profitable.

I'll not help you, if you refuse to help your self first.

[Karl Johnston]

OP; if you follow whatever les says you'll be 1000% ahead of the game :D he knows what he's talking about (as do the others, but particularly listen to the good advice above me)

[scobols]

Brad, I hate to be the bringer of bad news but that is lousy business practices. I think you have been on this list often enough to KNOW what a wedding should cost, and what are and are not good business practices.

With the deals you are making you are hurting other photographers businesses in your area and yourself too! My guess is that you do not have a CA state resale permit so you are not charging taxes, and the same with a business license.

I like the way your images look and you should be charging more than what you have stated. But you are undercutting other photographers and taking income away from them, and then you come here to ask for assistance to get more money when you won't follow established business protocall, to even help yourself!!

As each "photographer" does this it changes the publics perception of the value of good photography, and in turn those tell others that it is Ok to bottom feed for prices. So those of us that need a certain amount of cash income each month find it harder and harder to quantify even reasonable amounts for good, solid image creation. Perception is everything.

You are not prepared to do business as a professional photographer as of yet. It is far more than just taking shots and handing over a CD for a few measly $$.

There will be plenty of others that will help you because you asked for it, but my guess is that you will continue to do as you wish with little regard to other photographers and their businesses.

Just think if you had used a contract, agreed upon a living wage with a built in profit, paid the sales taxes and gotten a business license how much more gear you could get and even save to make your business larger and actually profitable.

I'll not help you, if you refuse to help your self first.

+1 - well said.

[dkatchalov]

Brad, I hate to be the bringer of bad news but that is lousy business practices. I think you have been on this list often enough to KNOW what a wedding should cost, and what are and are not good business practices.

With the deals you are making you are hurting other photographers businesses in your area and yourself too! My guess is that you do not have a CA state resale permit so you are not charging taxes, and the same with a business license.

I like the way your images look and you should be charging more than what you have stated. But you are undercutting other photographers and taking income away from them, and then you come here to ask for assistance to get more money when you won't follow established business protocall, to even help yourself!!

As each "photographer" does this it changes the publics perception of the value of good photography, and in turn those tell others that it is Ok to bottom feed for prices. So those of us that need a certain amount of cash income each month find it harder and harder to quantify even reasonable amounts for good, solid image creation. Perception is everything.

You are not prepared to do business as a professional photographer as of yet. It is far more than just taking shots and handing over a CD for a few measly $$.

There will be plenty of others that will help you because you asked for it, but my guess is that you will continue to do as you wish with little regard to other photographers and their businesses.

Just think if you had used a contract, agreed upon a living wage with a built in profit, paid the sales taxes and gotten a business license how much more gear you could get and even save to make your business larger and actually profitable.

I'll not help you, if you refuse to help your self first.

the guy's trying to make a start and get a leg up in this game, give him a break.

good on him for not just worrying about the $$$ from the start and actually wanting to do the right thing by his clients. it's easier to be greedy and overcharge than to charge $100 for a wedding IMHO.

everyone has to start somewhere. so before all the pros get on their soapboxes about undercutting, etc, consider this - if you are a professional wedding photographer with a proven track record, quality product, good client base and reasonable (market) prices, why would you be threatened by someone who's just starting out, bending over backwards for his clients and charging $100 (!!) for a job. he might do 3 job in a weekend and make $600 and you might do one and make $2,000. what are you worried about?

to the OP - stick to you word, suck it up and learn from this. and good on you for trying to make it in this business, everyone's gotta start somewhere. good luck.

[LBaldwin]

the guy's trying to make a start and get a leg up in this game, give him a break.

good on him for not just worrying about the $$$ from the start and actually wanting to do the right thing by his clients. it's easier to be greedy and overcharge than to charge $100 for a wedding IMHO.

everyone has to start somewhere. so before all the pros get on their soapboxes about undercutting, etc, consider this - if you are a professional wedding photographer with a proven track record, quality product, good client base and reasonable (market) prices, why would you be threatened by someone who's just starting out, bending over backwards for his clients and charging $100 (!!) for a job. he might do 3 job in a weekend and make $600 and you might do one and make $2,000. what are you worried about?

to the OP - stick to you word, suck it up and learn from this. and good on you for trying to make it in this business, everyone's gotta start somewhere. good luck.


This is not about greed. This is not about "overcharging" either. He has the photographic capability to provide very good images. This is about the realities of professionial conduct by a business person. You don't need a 'proven track record" either.

This is about a member of the photographic community, one who has been at this site for quite some time and has had to see several posts exactly like this one.

Undercutting is exactly what this is about. Damaging the retail prices in his area, not paying taxes and living up to the financial and legal responsibilites like a professional business owner. It is first and formost against the law to run a business without the right documents. I see you said nothing at all about that. The OP should be using a contract. The OP should have run a CODB to understand fully how much it costs HIM to open the doors in the morning, and then decide how much to charge to create an atmosphere of a profitable business. Everything in photography costs money, there is nothing wrong with charging to stay afloat and make sure the kids have kibble!

Do you honestly think that shooting several hundred images per wedding, doing the PP, and after shoot editing is only worth $100.00? What about materials, prints, CD's and business costs. Cameras and lenses are not free, neither are gas and wear and tear on your car, computer and camera equipment.

So what you end up with is something well south of minimum wage, and a very happy client who thinks you are a sucker. The client tells everyone they know about the great deal they got but not who gave it to them and further they are not likely to hire you again in the future mainly because they equate cost with quality. But the next photographer they deal with will get poor mouthed to death to lower prices and increase image transfer for next to nothing.

I guess my next question is 'Do you have a professional photography business where you depend on your skills as a photographer and a business person to put food on the table?

[nicksan]

I think what you are charging is way too low if they aren't good friends, family, or similar and you are "gifting" your services and pics.

At least it looks like you have your expenses covered which is good. But $200 over 8 hours = $25/hour. That's just too low IMO for the time sacrifices you'll make, not to mention the time doing PP...

That said, I would feel uncomfortable changing the agreement. I'd probably suck it up and do it and just consider it experience.

That's what I did this past weekend. Shot a wedding + reception for a friend for nearly nothing. It was a great experience though...and I don't rely on income from photography at all to put food on the table.

[blackshadow]

It's too late for this one to try and gouge the client for more money (and that's what it would be to change your pricing and terms after agreement has been reached). Stick to the agreement you made, let the clients know they got lucky with a very special deal as and that your normal rates are $x,xxx and chalk it up as a lesson and learn from it so you don't make the same mistake ever again.

[bwolford]

the guy's trying to make a start and get a leg up in this game, give him a break.

good on him for not just worrying about the $$$ from the start and actually wanting to do the right thing by his clients. it's easier to be greedy and overcharge than to charge $100 for a wedding IMHO.

everyone has to start somewhere. so before all the pros get on their soapboxes about undercutting, etc, consider this - if you are a professional wedding photographer with a proven track record, quality product, good client base and reasonable (market) prices, why would you be threatened by someone who's just starting out, bending over backwards for his clients and charging $100 (!!) for a job. he might do 3 job in a weekend and make $600 and you might do one and make $2,000. what are you worried about?

to the OP - stick to you word, suck it up and learn from this. and good on you for trying to make it in this business, everyone's gotta start somewhere. good luck.

WRONG! He screwed up. His work is worth more than that and when he does this he hurts the profession. No reason to let up.

[cdifoto]

When a relative newbie charges what the establish pro charges, the clients are gonna go to the established pro pretty much every time. That's good news for the pro but it doesn't get the newbie anywhere. Naturally the newbie has to charge "risk-accepting" prices to get clients to go with him instead of the "guarantee".

Telling newbies they need to charge what you're charging right off the bat isn't helping the newbie...it's helping you and only you.

You don't have to like it, but the reality is that you DO need a proven track record to charge a premium. So get off the OP's back, people. Once he's established, he'll charge more.

[CaityB]

I'd say just do it. I sold myself short on my first wedding too, but I learned from it and moved on. I got some shots I can use from it for my portfolio. I haven't looked back since. I've set my price.

One thing you might want to discuss with them is a Non-Disclosure Agreement, then they can't go off and blab about your "oopsy"...If you do book more clients through their wedding it'll be helpful :)

[LeeSC]

When a relative newbie charges what the establish pro charges, the clients are gonna go to the established pro pretty much every time. That's good news for the pro but it doesn't get the newbie anywhere. Naturally the newbie has to charge "risk-accepting" prices to get clients to go with him instead of the "guarantee".

Telling newbies they need to charge what you're charging right off the bat isn't helping the newbie...it's helping you and only you.

You don't have to like it, but the reality is that you DO need a proven track record to charge a premium. So get off the OP's back, people. Once he's established, he'll charge more.

I agree 100%. Let's remember that there are many people here who put food on the table , pay bills and insure their families with jobs that don't include photography. It's is not their fault that someone else chooses photography as a primary profession. Just because a "professional" decides to rent a 10000 sq ft studio, buy 50K worth of gear and put billboards up all over the city, should the small "mom and pop" photographers be expected to charge the same price?

It is a tough economy right now. If I can save money by putting my studio in my home and writing off my vehicle on taxes to undercut the next guy and get the job, you bet I am going to do it!

[chukdivad]

Here is my, small, wedding portfolio (so you can see how much I should be charging, if more)
You've done some really nice work. Take your lumps and get your prices right on the next one. I've seen prices 5-10 times what you're charging for work that may only be marginally better (if at all).

[zagiace]

What you charge should be relative to your experience and the consistent quality of work you can provide. I personally have not seen enough of your work to say you have under/over charged for your services.
I see from your website you are 16, and derive from your post you have shot a few weddings. #1- that's an awesome start! Your about page describes you as a starting photographer who is learning and wants to work with other photographers. So, you are not overselling your experience. If you are honest about your level of photography then you will likely find a niche market and be able to gain important experience and be able to slowly raise your prices to match your quality and experience.
You have quoted the job, and like previously mentioned, stand by it. Learn for the next one. Your off to a great start.

[TXLEBER]

When a relative newbie charges what the establish pro charges, the clients are gonna go to the established pro pretty much every time. That's good news for the pro but it doesn't get the newbie anywhere. Naturally the newbie has to charge "risk-accepting" prices to get clients to go with him instead of the "guarantee".

Telling newbies they need to charge what you're charging right off the bat isn't helping the newbie...it's helping you and only you.

You don't have to like it, but the reality is that you DO need a proven track record to charge a premium. So get off the OP's back, people. Once he's established, he'll charge more.

What you charge should be relative to your experience and the consistent quality of work you can provide. I personally have not seen enough of your work to say you have under/over charged for your services.
I see from your website you are 16, and derive from your post you have shot a few weddings. #1- that's an awesome start! Your about page describes you as a starting photographer who is learning and wants to work with other photographers. So, you are not overselling your experience. If you are honest about your level of photography then you will likely find a niche market and be able to gain important experience and be able to slowly raise your prices to match your quality and experience.
You have quoted the job, and like previously mentioned, stand by it. Learn for the next one. Your off to a great start.

+1+1+1+1!!

These two posts say it all!

[Tom Reichner]

Telling a very young, aspiring photog to charge the regular going rate that pros charge is ludicrous. Nobody would book him.

He needs experience. There are people who cannot afford to pay the "going rate". Sounds like a good match to me.

Also, expecting a 16 year old to register for a business license may not be realistic. How the heck would he ever get insurance? Even if a 16 year old could get business insurance he could most likely not afford it. Not to mention that having a business registered in your name can mess some things up for someone of that age. Imagine the extra paperwork he would have to do when applying for scholarships and government funded financial aid? What if after he graduates from high school he gets a day job, then gets laid off. How's he supposed to collect unemployment if he is the owner of record of a business? It becomes exceedingly difficult.

I wonder if the very people who are condemning the OP for not being set up as a "bona fide" business ever charged for their work before they had a business license, resale license, insurance, etc. I think we all started out pretty much the same way. Hard to condemn someone for doing exactly what we did when we were just beginning.

[Tumeg]

Brad, I hate to be the bringer of bad news but that is lousy business practices. I think you have been on this list often enough to KNOW what a wedding should cost, and what are and are not good business practices.

With the deals you are making you are hurting other photographers businesses in your area and yourself too! My guess is that you do not have a CA state resale permit so you are not charging taxes, and the same with a business license.

I like the way your images look and you should be charging more than what you have stated. But you are undercutting other photographers and taking income away from them, and then you come here to ask for assistance to get more money when you won't follow established business protocall, to even help yourself!!

As each "photographer" does this it changes the publics perception of the value of good photography, and in turn those tell others that it is Ok to bottom feed for prices. So those of us that need a certain amount of cash income each month find it harder and harder to quantify even reasonable amounts for good, solid image creation. Perception is everything.

You are not prepared to do business as a professional photographer as of yet. It is far more than just taking shots and handing over a CD for a few measly $$.

There will be plenty of others that will help you because you asked for it, but my guess is that you will continue to do as you wish with little regard to other photographers and their businesses.

Just think if you had used a contract, agreed upon a living wage with a built in profit, paid the sales taxes and gotten a business license how much more gear you could get and even save to make your business larger and actually profitable.

I'll not help you, if you refuse to help your self first.

I totally understand what you are saying, and I agree. I should not have quoted them such a low price.
The 2 other cheap weddings I did, there was no other "competition" because like I said, that was all those couples could afford.
The other weddings I have done, I was the 2nd shooter, so I didn't 'charge' anything (just got paid, what the main photographer paid me)

I do understand that quoting\agreeing on such a low cost, hurts myself (in the long run) and all of the other local professionals.

I knew I should have said, at LEAST $900 (about the going rate in the area, for what I offered), but I just couldn't get that number to exit my mouth.

[Tumeg]

I think what you are charging is way too low if they aren't good friends, family, or similar and you are "gifting" your services and pics.

At least it looks like you have your expenses covered which is good. But $200 over 8 hours = $25/hour. That's just too low IMO for the time sacrifices you'll make, not to mention the time doing PP...

That said, I would feel uncomfortable changing the agreement. I'd probably suck it up and do it and just consider it experience.

That's what I did this past weekend. Shot a wedding + reception for a friend for nearly nothing. It was a great experience though...and I don't rely on income from photography at all to put food on the table.

The two weddings I did for $100 (again, that is literally ALL they could afford), I DID know the couples. Which, I should have stated in my original post.
This couple I am dealing with now, I also do know (we aren't exactly best friends, but we do talk every so often).

[Tumeg]

You've done some really nice work. Take your lumps and get your prices right on the next one. I've seen prices 5-10 times what you're charging for work that may only be marginally better (if at all).

Thanks for the compliment(s) :)
I do plan on setting firm prices for weddings...


What you charge should be relative to your experience and the consistent quality of work you can provide. I personally have not seen enough of your work to say you have under/over charged for your services.
I see from your website you are 16, and derive from your post you have shot a few weddings. #1- that's an awesome start! Your about page describes you as a starting photographer who is learning and wants to work with other photographers. So, you are not overselling your experience. If you are honest about your level of photography then you will likely find a niche market and be able to gain important experience and be able to slowly raise your prices to match your quality and experience.
You have quoted the job, and like previously mentioned, stand by it. Learn for the next one. Your off to a great start.

Thank you :)


Telling a very young, aspiring photog to charge the regular going rate that pros charge is ludicrous. Nobody would book him.

I was just going to say this, in response to a few of the replies.


He needs experience. There are people who cannot afford to pay the "going rate". Sounds like a good match to me.

Also, expecting a 16 year old to register for a business license may not be realistic. How the heck would he ever get insurance? Even if a 16 year old could get business insurance he could most likely not afford it. Not to mention that having a business registered in your name can mess some things up for someone of that age. Imagine the extra paperwork he would have to do when applying for scholarships and government funded financial aid? What if after he graduates from high school he gets a day job, then gets laid off. How's he supposed to collect unemployment if he is the owner of record of a business? It becomes exceedingly difficult.

I wonder if the very people who are condemning the OP for not being set up as a "bona fide" business ever charged for their work before they had a business license, resale license, insurance, etc. I think we all started out pretty much the same way. Hard to condemn someone for doing exactly what we did when we were just beginning.

[samoan_ridah]

I think enough has been said about your initial problem so I just want to comment that your work is really awesome stuff!

[NickJushchyshyn]

Just as another voice of support....

1) Yup, you undersold yourself. $200 for 8 hours of on site time + pp (+ rehearsal attendance?), transit and related expenses ... yeah, I'd be sad ... not at all a job I'd want to take.

But the time to negotiate is during negotiations ... not after an agreement is made ... that kinda defeats the whole point of "agreement" in the first place.
Eat it, deliver and move on.

2) As to comments that you're "undercutting" or "hurting your profession" ... meh.
Maybe you hurt yourself a bit, but I'm pretty sure the profession will go on just fine. :)
Understand, that my background is in the visual effects industry where we've institutionalized the practice of paying newbies little to nothing (literally) for their work (they're called interns and production assistants). Back in the days of creative guilds, folks learned by being apprentices. What you're doing may be a bit less formalized, but certainly nothing new vs the past several hundred years of history. :p

3) Just one note for your future negotiations...
I asked them what their budget was, and they didn't exactly answer, so I just said it would be $200 to rent a back-up\second camera, and then $50 for "other expenses" (to rent a 70-200). Then I told them, for my time, it would be another $200
To me ... this sounds like the biggest step you took in the wrong direction ... explaining your costs in detail. No reason to do this.

Your price is your price for delivering high quality service and products. Period.
The answer to "why?" (only to be given if the question is asked in the first place) is simply that it's not viable to provide the level of work that you do at a lower price. It doesn't really matter what the prospect's budget is. That really shouldn't have an impact on your pricing.
If the price is too high for the prospect's ... you don't get the gig, which means all you really lose is the chance to do a ton work for virtually no income. Is that a loss?

If the prospect counter-offers with something lower than your price, go ahead and evaluate based on any factors you feel justified (close location, short hours, nominal material costs, favorable opportunity costs for a date you don't expect to book at a better rate ... whatever) ... but don't start with "this is what it costs me" because it's darn near impossible to work up from there vs maybe inching down from your ideal price.

Anyway, hope that helps.
Congrats on having the kahunas to move your start up forward!
Good luck!