calibrating printer

[PEACHMAN]

My prints are always somewhat darker than photos viewed on my monitor. I thought it would change when I went from a HP932c to my recent Epson R800..no such luck. Dark green still prints as almost black. I use windows XP and usually Adobe Photo Elements. Is there a fix for this with something like ColorVision Spyder or thru the soft ware for my printer or Adobe ? I looked at the Gamma correction in the control panel and it was an almost imperceptable change in the wrong direction...Anybody have any help or know any links for this problem????

[mbze430]

The correct way of doing this is to get ICC profiles for your printers, get Photoshop, and use the Softproof (CTRL+Y) to see how your prints will look, and than edit them in softproof view.

If don't understand the ICC workflow, your best option is to lower your monitor's brightness and contrast to match your prints. Once you have it set your monitor to match your printer, you will now be able to edit your prints to compensate for the darkness on the monitor and it should print "similar".

[PEACHMAN]

Then I will be changing the data of the photo to match the printer, right? I can already do this but I hate to alter that data because I'm quite happy with the looks on the screen. That would also mean that my camera (Canon Digital Rebel) is always shooting on the dark side. Is there an adjustment for this (to brighten)in the camera ??(by the way, thanks for such a promt reply !)

[slin100]

While eyeballing the adjustment of your monitor to match your prints may work, you really should calibrate your monitor. Once you've done that then you can determine whether or not you need to profile your printer. Printers are more stable and consistent performers than monitors, and the stock ICC profiles that are often supplied by the manufacturer are, many times, not that bad.

Experiment with the stock ICC profiles. Alternatively, you can opt to have the printer's driver perform the colorspace conversion. This is done by selecting Printer Color Management in the Photoshop Elements print dialog. You should, then, configure the driver to use ICM.

Either way, using ICC profiles or Printer Color Management, you won't have to change the data on the photo. It's done automatically for you.

BTW, does Photoshop Elements have Gamut Warning? I thought it didn't.

[PEACHMAN]

Gamut warning ???is that like sending the new guy for a bucket of steam or a can of relative bearing grease??...I have not seen anything about this while monkeying around in ' elements.

I have printed off the instructions you sent and will try them tonight and will report back tomorrow with (hopefully good) results.........thanks

[lomond]

I have the same problem with my R1800 ( same as the R800 but A3 size).
I have calibrated my monitor using Spyder 2.
I have installed the latest drivers and printer profiles.
I print using ICC profile, then in the printer driver section I use ICM and no colour adjustment.

Still the prints are darker than the monitor image..

My present workaround is to increase the shadow amount in "shadows/highlights" by 20%.
The printed image then looks like the monitor image. :?

BTW.... Even though the above is a workaround ( I'm sure I've messed up somewhere ) the resultant prints are stunning.
I am very happy with this printer. :)

[Jonny]

Still the prints are darker than the monitor image..




I have heard many people complain that there prints, while colour accurate, are a bit dark.
I too suffer with this.
Before printing any pic i just boost the brightness a touch and this gives me a great print.

[lomond]

I have heard many people complain that there prints, while colour accurate, are a bit dark.
I too suffer with this.
Before printing any pic i just boost the brightness a touch and this gives me a great print.


Yes, that's basically what I do but in reverse.
However I thought if I calibrated my monitor and followed a color management/ICC setup I would get what I see on screen.

I only get what I see on screen after a 20% boost in shadows.
It works, but not what I expected.
I'll get there eventually.

[UncleDoug]

Yes, that's basically what I do but in reverse.
However I thought if I calibrated my monitor and followed a color management/ICC setup I would get what I see on screen.

I only get what I see on screen after a 20% boost in shadows.
It works, but not what I expected.
I'll get there eventually.

Ah, the big falacie of color management. :D

Seriously.
You will never get an exact replica of what is on your screen, regardless of how tight you follow the ICC/ISO rules, due to the fact your monitor is a transmissive(RGB/additive) device and prints are reflective(CMYK/subtractive) media. Two totally different concepts that are trying to represent the other.

The profiles that came with your printer will get you close, especially if the operating conditions are close to what the manufacturer specifies.

Anyone into the ICC/Color Management game should read "Real World Color Management" - Fraser, Murphy and Bunting.
A must for beginners and endless info from some of the big guys.

Anyway, if your monitor is calibrated and profiled, asside from getting custom profiles produced for your printer you'll have to get used to the difference, as you already are and keep on compensating.

[mbze430]

Like I said. If you are fully ICC profiled and understand the workflow. You will know how to softproof for prints.

Unfortunately not many people understand it, and I don't blame them. I was at Calumet, and one of the lady that worked there was trying to print out this one print. And it wasn't as brilliant as she hoped. So here I was just looking at the ridiculous prices, I decided to help her.

She said she knew how to use Photoshop and all that great stuff, and probably she did. But she just didn't understand the whole concept of the ICC workflow. The MAC unit there was completely calibrated and been profiled. But she failed to understand how to softproof the image on screen. Plus she didn't understand how to control (disable) the printer's color management. Of course this is one of the new 1800. So I had to figure out how to turn off all that crap off as well.

If you are not serious about printing your stuff, and it just for family and not for display. There isnt a point to get all worked up with ICC profile. Just live with what you have, and compensate as needed. Or take it to a lab, and have them correct it for you.

For anyone that is doing arts and fine gallery display, it is utmost important you understand this. Because you can print your prints to compensate for the display lights at the gallery among other things.

[UncleDoug]

For anyone that is doing arts and fine gallery display, it is utmost important you understand this. Because you can print your prints to compensate for the display lights at the gallery among other things.


mbze430,

This is interesting. How would you go about compensating for the lighting conditions in a gallery under say Solux lighting with a little bit of difused sunlight getting int the room from a distant window?

Soft proofing is as good as the calibrated/profiled monitor and the QUALITY of the printer profile. When I say quality, I mean was it custom made for your printing conditions? Is it in a space, RGB, CMYK, that leverages the most color and dynamic range of the printer/media combination? What profiling patch set was used? What profiling software was used? All of these have drastic effects on the performance of your profile.

Also, the environment, lighting in the room, you are working in has drastic effects on how you percieve colors on the monitor and print. D50 lighting adjusted so that a plain white piece of paper viewed in these conditions matches a white screen on your monitor will get you very close to ISO standards.

[MTalley]

Been there, done that, have an Epson R800 with the same problem.

Downloading the latest drivers from Epson solved the darkness problem a little. Attached is a screenshot of the settings I use to print deliverable photos on Epson Luster paper. It solves a green cast problem I have with final output (cyan and yellow sliders at -6) and the darkness (Gamma set to 1.8 ).

Of course, your mileage may vary, but this works for me.

[PEACHMAN]

Morning all...I tried most of the suggested tweeks in the printer screen as well as messing with what few are available in 'Elements and on my Adobe Gamma in the control panel. Some changes happened but mostly in areas that I was not intrested in changing. The above mentioned reference to color (white) of the paper vs the screen is very intresting and frankly one I have not thought about although it has always been my thought that the colors are the same on screen and on paper, the differance being that the screen is radiating light thru the colors and the paper has light reflecting off the colors..........so it's our preception of the colors that differ....?? Shine a light thru the paper and it brightenes it up 60% of the necessary change......By the way, this is a well informed forum that is a joy to post with..So happy with the response from you all..

[PEACHMAN]

Did you try using the slider for brightness at all? WhenI tried that it ment tweeking the contrast and I started loosing little bits of detail and adding highlights that didn't please me. I guess I don't understand Gamma as well as i thought. Is that only effecting your "lightness" or are you getting or are you getting a change in the color brightness?

[Hellashot]

My prints are always somewhat darker than photos viewed on my monitor. I thought it would change when I went from a HP932c to my recent Epson R800..no such luck. Dark green still prints as almost black. I use windows XP and usually Adobe Photo Elements. Is there a fix for this with something like ColorVision Spyder or thru the soft ware for my printer or Adobe ? I looked at the Gamma correction in the control panel and it was an almost imperceptable change in the wrong direction...Anybody have any help or know any links for this problem????

What version of PSE? 3? Do you have "Colormatch RGB" as a print space option? If so I would try it. I found it to work on my R1800 with images of a color space of sRGB. I was getting blown out prints using the epson paper print space settings until I tried colormatch. My monitor is set dim, which resulted in over-brightened prints. Colormatch seems to print pretty darn good so far.

I use "color control" gamma 1.8 - epson standard (not vivid) and set your paper to the proper selection in the paper type.

[PEACHMAN]

While we're all looking at Epson printers and I have your attention, have any of you found a suitable aftermarket and less pricey replacement ink cartridge??? Most that I have seen are dye based and no fade time is given or implied. The reason I chose the Epson R800 is the archival quality that is promised (we all want to be remembered forever , right !!) The need for a longer lived photo came up because I spend a few weeks in Costa Rica each February (wonderful photo ops and ambient light). Every year I bring back a charge of pictures and leave with friends there. Most years when I return the pictures are still on the wall but have nothing but ghost images to view..(that was when I used a HP 932c). Don't have this problem with the R-800 using factory paper and ink, but this printer is thursty !! ??????????

[UncleDoug]

The above mentioned reference to color (white) of the paper vs the screen is very intresting and frankly one I have not thought about although it has always been my thought that the colors are the same on screen and on paper, the differance being that the screen is radiating light thru the colors and the paper has light reflecting off the colors..........so it's our preception of the colors that differ....?? Shine a light thru the paper and it brightenes it up 60% of the necessary change......By the way, this is a well informed forum that is a joy to post with..So happy with the response from you all..

The white piece of paper thing is a little trick you'll find in Color management books. ISO 3664 specifies D50 as the standard illuminant for the graphic arts industry and a luminocity of 500lux for Practical Appraisal and 2000lux for Critical Comparison. Basically you are trying to match the lighting intensity and color temperature of the light in the room to the light intensity and color temperature of your monitor.

It is not so much that our perception of what is on screen vs. what is on paper is different, but the way the colors are generated - transmissive vs. reflective. Transmissive(RGB) devices(monitors) by definition will be able to display more colors that a reflective(CMYK) device(paper). Also metamerism comes into play here, which is a good and bad thing. If your lighting is not anywhere close to the ISO standard, especially the color temperature, things will not get close to matching up no mater how hard you try.

ICC and ISO asside I've found it is a mater of staying consistant in whatever you do, ICC workflow or not. This way you can become accustomed to how things reproduce in your environment and you can, over time, begin to compensate so that your output is what you are looking for.

About the light-through-the-paper. The image will seem to become more "illuminated" but that scenario is not a real viewing condition, unless you are printing back-lit film and should be avoided as a form of appraisal. If you are not following a STRICT ISO/ICC color management regiment appraisals should be made in similar conditions as you think the image will be displayed.

[UncleDoug]

While we're all looking at Epson printers and I have your attention, have any of you found a suitable aftermarket and less pricey replacement ink cartridge??? Most that I have seen are dye based and no fade time is given or implied. The reason I chose the Epson R800 is the archival quality that is promised (we all want to be remembered forever , right !!) The need for a longer lived photo came up because I spend a few weeks in Costa Rica each February (wonderful photo ops and ambient light). Every year I bring back a charge of pictures and leave with friends there. Most years when I return the pictures are still on the wall but have nothing but ghost images to view..(that was when I used a HP 932c). Don't have this problem with the R-800 using factory paper and ink, but this printer is thursty !! ??????????

Epson is in the business of selling ink, not printers. :)
Seriously, this pisses me off, but what can you do?
Well, you can get into some serious color management, linearization & profiling but this is a serious p.i.t.a. :lol:

Once again, anyone interested at all in color management should read and sleep with this book under your pillow - Real World Color Management (http://www.colorremedies.com/realworldcolor/)

Your color vision will become crystal clear, not muddy in the 3/4 tones.... :D

[PEACHMAN]

I can see I have some serious catching up to do in the color management/profiling world. I have ordered the recommended book and I know it will help me get to sleep every night for a while .;)

[UncleDoug]

I can see I have some serious catching up to do in the color management/profiling world. I have ordered the recommended book and I know it will help me get to sleep every night for a while .;)

Right on!

You'll learn quite a bit, have some pre-notions validated and destroyed and have an invaluable refference nomater what "level" of color management you end up working with.
At least that is what happened with me. :D