Is my time over already?

[form]

I got involved in shooting weddings only a few years ago, and up until the last couple of months business was consistently increasing. I was so busy, I had to turn down many job inquiries. But now...


Nothing has changed insofar as my marketing methods. I did and still do use craigslist as one of my primaries, and TheKnot.com was very kind to me at the beginning of this year throughout June/July, when many brides were mentioning my name alongside other popular local photographers and I was getting lots of bookings from them. In fact, I've expanded my presence a little and gotten involved in a few sites that allow clients to review my services, and all of my reviews have been good thus far. Yet now, for some reason, my site is getting fewer hits, and I am getting very few inquiries; and for the past month, my name has not appeared on TheKnot.com. All of a sudden, I'm concerned about the future of my wedding photography business.


What's different? From the beginning I was never the expensive choice; I priced myself somewhat below the least expensive (but still popular) competition, which, until recently, was about $100/hour (I was closer to $75). Well, there are now several photographers - not just one - out there who are offering to shoot weddings for as low as $100 for 4 hours. Not only can I NOT compete with that and still make anything for my efforts, but I feel like they have ousted me from my niche position of being the most affordable alternative that still included retouching in my rates.


So, the two changes that I know about are the ultra-budget photographers have taken over the role of most affordable option (besides free), and I'm no longer being mentioned on TheKnot.com, which was a source of many clients.
Up to this point, I've only been shooting weddings solo for 1.5 years. Is my run over that quickly? And...is it because I didn't maintain a niche or ever establish myself as one of the best local photographers, but only existed as a "better than most of the other budget shooters" class?


I'm just not sure what to do at this point. I have all this equipment that is going to be literally collecting dust for at least the next 1.5 months until my next official booking comes around.

[tim]

The problem about marketing based on price is someone can always go cheaper. I've talked to half a dozen professionals in my area, none of them low end, and all say booking are down significantly. I'm still getting bookings though, and I think there might be more last minute bookings that usual. I'm fortunate that I don't have to rely on photography for my income, though most years I do photography full time in summer.

We're in the middle of the biggest recessions in the last hundred years, it's to be expected. So long as you're not dependant on photography to survive just ride it out.

[form]

Although I am not dependent on photography to survive, I am dependent on it to get through the next 2 years of college. My alternative is to sell all of my equipment and/or take out student loans, and since most of my investment is in lenses that will retain much of their resale value, I don't really have to "worry." However, I would really hate to make my main source of income go away because I no longer can afford to keep my equipment.

My summer was fairly busy, despite the fact that our temperatures are well over 100 degrees on a regular basis between May and the end of September. I can honestly say that I haven't booked a single job in weeks, possibly a month. I'm not even getting more than a few inquiries each month now, whereas before I was getting 1-2 each week or more.

[sapearl]

As Tim says, the downturn has been something fierce Joey. I won't even say how far off my business has dropped but it's quite bad, and I price pretty much in the middle for my area. If not for all the pro-bono coverage I'm donating lately to worthy non profit organizations, I wouldn't be shooting much at all. But at least with these groups they appreciate the work and I've been networking with a variety of company executives and such.

It's bad right now, but things should turn around eventually now that we have a more intelligent administration that knows how to constructively get things done. In my area we've about hit bottom. Your housing market in Nevada really hit the skids too in the past 18 months. People can't even afford to stay in their homes let alone pay for good wedding work.

[sapearl]

Sorry Joey - forgot to answer your original question. No. I don't believe your time is over. We just all have to weather the current storm.;) - Stu

[form]

You see, it's so funny that when everyone was saying how business was incredibly off during the last 8-10 months, my business was thriving. Now when they are saying the economy is showing a trend towards recovery, I'm getting no work.

Lots of my clients are from out of town, looking for that "vegas wedding." It's not usually locals who hire me.

[sapearl]

As far as being off, and your trade booming, it sounds like your economical packages is what they were able to afford since you're not very expensive.

Perhaps now that things are coming back a bit, they can afford the more expensive packages so they "shop higher" and don't consider you. I don't honestly know...... just speculating.....:rolleyes:

You see, it's so funny that when everyone was saying how business was incredibly off during the last 8-10 months, my business was thriving. Now when they are saying the economy is showing a trend towards recovery, I'm getting no work.

Lots of my clients are from out of town, looking for that "vegas wedding." It's not usually locals who hire me.

[tim]

One of the reasons I initially put together a $6K package was to make me look like a higher end photographer. People booking it was a nice bonus! Now I have to make a larger package, but I don't know what else to put into it.

Maybe you could do the same - entry level packages stay the same, with higher options available.

[form]

In order to have other packages, I would have to be able to put out albums and prints. I've never done either one for weddings, and I have no experience with albums. Those are the two main offerings for weddings besides retouching photos and providing them on DVD. I could offer prints, but why would anyone want them if they can get DVD discs for less? As for albums, I would never be willing to give less than the best quality, but that would skyrocket my prices....and I'd need to learn how to assemble them, which is something I don't know at all.

What else could I add?

[tim]

You could offer to dress as Elvis while you take the photos ;)

If you want to do albums just outsource design and production, and price it so it covers your costs and leaves a decent margin. Queensberry do design, print, and bind, but they'll be out of your price range. I'm sure many others do it, and I can grab a list of designers from a recent dwf thread if you like. Finding a full service album company would be easier though.

[sapearl]

You may have to take the plunge on albums - learn something new - adapt..... do or die. Change is hard sometimes. I know. I shot medium format film for over 30 years, and was loathe to put down my Hasselblads.... but I saw the handwriting on the wall, still love to shoot, and made the decision to adopt digital.

You could also start with simple matted albums. They sell in some markets, and are easy to assemble, high quality, and come with a variety of options. I still have a good number of folks who buy them here.

As far as prints go, that's the thing - I don't let go of disks cheaply so they get high quality finely processed prints from me. That market still sells; can't beat an beautifully matted frame print over the mantle that will be displayed for years. - Stu

[sapearl]

Joey - check out this new "Vegas" thrread. Others have similar concerns:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=742529

[form]

Yes it's similar, but there was only one occasion when I actually got "price-shopped" out of a job, or so it felt like...since I don't have my prices on my ads or website, they have to call or email to find out my rates. Anyway, that one instance was a few weeks ago, and after I told the lady my rates, she asked if I had any flexibility under certain conditions or if that was just a standard, flat rate. I said it's a flat rate, and never heard back from her.

I think it's truly absurd for someone to be willing to take less than my level of quality for wedding photography; I consider myself at or near the bare minimum level acceptable for this field, and I can honestly say that I don't know of any local photographers who do an equal or better job than me at a lower price, or even the same price. Even browsing through the lists of photographers on theknot.com, weddingwire.com and many wedding vendor searches for my area, I haven't found any. I am the lowest common denominator that's worth considering. Or so I believed until recently.

Okay, I have now adopted an, "I have nothing to lose anymore" mentality. Therefore, whatever comes to me, comes to me, and I am no longer including the same things I have been as a standard offering. Everything will be subject to my whims and judgement. Online proofs for print purchasing, Retouching ala-carte, DVD disc ala-carte, base price is now discretionary. Since I'm not booking anybody anyway, I really don't have anything to lose.

[bnlearle]

You've made your business about pictures and have almost completely thrown you out of the picture. Your website presence is not very good, imo. When the market is SATURATED (which LV is - much like SD), you have to do things to separate yourself.

At the very least, you need a personal blog, imo. People who book you would do so based off of almost NOTHING (about you). Fact is, people prefer to work with people they like more than people they don't like - or don't know. Help people get to know you. You need to connect with people clicking on your site. That's not happening right now. Heck, people can't even comment on your blog posts!

This, imo, is a problem with the blog sites. I think it's (most of the time) much better to have a actual site and an actual blog. I think you've shot yourself in the foot a little bit here.

Slideshows. Get showit web (http://showitfast.com/#/showit-web/) to show your potential clients that you are DIFFERENT than your competitors. You don't just show a few good photos - something that almost any photographer can do from a wedding day - you TELL WHOLE STORIES with your photos. You have good images all day long. Something that they can't rely on with the other budget guys. Your GREAT photos go great on your site - and these slideshows go great on a blog.

You also have a terrible attitude for wedding photography. I've seen you here for a while now - always complaining. Always saying things like "if I just had this..." You sound like an easily defeated person - and in a competitive market, that's not a good thing.

Some of things I'm not sure you can change. You might be a bit bland in person naturally and you might be predisposed to being negative... I don't know. I say ask yourself honestly if you are and if you think you can change that or not. If you can't, honestly, I suggest not counting on wedding photography for consistent financial provision.

Hope this helps ;)

[sapearl]

Another $50? :lol::lol::lol:... just kidding of course.

........Slideshows. Get showit web (http://showitfast.com/#/showit-web/) to show your potential clients that you are DIFFERENT than your competitors. You don't just show a few good photos - something that almost any photographer can do from a wedding day - you TELL WHOLE STORIES with your photos. ..... ;)

[Dorman]

I have to say I agree with Bobby on a few points. If you don't value and are not confident in your own work, then why should customers value your work and want to book you? Bobby has made some excellent points on improving your online presence. This is especially key since you are in LV and are booking mostly out of towners.

[jpnettie]

I know that in the past year things have been more difficult financially for every industry.

The one peice of advice I can give you is to always try to go out of your way to be the best and do your best. I agree with the suggestion of doing a slideshow ( we use animoto) and posting it on your blog. We are doing this for our clients after their engagement session, finding out their favourite music and surprising them with it. I can't tell you how happy it makes them and it shows how you are willing to go out of your way to do something they will always look back on. Doing that little bit extra sets you apart. If you have a place for them to comment on your blog you can ask them to do so as well as these are great references for anyone looking at your blog!

Remember it's not all about price and once you separate yourself from that you will be getting clients based on your work and not what you charge! We also never charge if we do any extra time with the couple so we don't think of an hourly rate.

Good luck !

[bobbyz]

First I am not a wedding guy and I don't make my living from photography. Iwas reading the long thread that Bobby Earle started about top end wedding photogs and I noticed similar things that Bobby Earle is mentioning in this thread and that thread. You can't keep talking about folks offering similar service with less money. Look above not below. In any area of work there will be someone willing to do same work for cheap. What will you do if someone entering the business in your city starts offering free prints, retouched for free? Don't tell me that you will lower your rates to $0. I have heard you mention about the other guy in your city who is not good but gets more business. Figure out what he does better than you.

Someone can be very good in taking pictures but no good in selling while others are totally opposite. Having both abilities is the best combo. I wouldn't worry about your equipment collecting dust for next month or so. Use that time to improve your skills, your connections, package sthat you would like to offer, what do the folks who charge more in your area offer and how do offer something better to your clients for same or little less. Eat ramen noodles (if you have to) to save money for things which will improve your business. There is reason companies invest so much of their revenues back into R&D.

And take all this with open mind. Good luck.

[form]

I value my work insofar as believing that I give couples an affordable end product that is superior to most or all of those in the same price class. I am not egotistical enough to claim that I belong in the category of the more expensive and dynamic photographers.

I am honestly very uncomfortable showing my face on my website, and my social life is limited mostly to spending time with my girlfriend and her family. The other things I do include full-time college and the occasional late-night bowling binge.

I am not willing to buy that showit product, but thanks for the suggestion.

I am indeed a rather bland and mellow person, and tend more towards persistence than brilliance (which persistence allows me to use hotel coathangers to fabricate a new beach umbrella locking lever, or being able to fish out a boomerang from 50' away from a pond shore with rope, a bungee cord, and some rice cakes to draw the geese). I can and frequently do complain, mostly to people I don't know :) I can be very dogged in my pursuit of things, especially when - like many times - I refuse to believe something is impossible. It's interesting just how few things really are impossible when you don't believe they are.

I have never been accused of being a good salesperson, in part because I feel that attempting to "sell" requires an act of misdirection, which is manipulation and therefore immoral. I involve my desire for honesty and sincerity in my photography, and that makes it difficult for me to write blog posts with the words "amazing" and "incredible" and "magnificently gorgeous" when my mind's expressions peak at "nice," "pretty" or "beautiful." Likewise, I think some of my work is "good," but not "excellent" or "masterful," because I know what others can do and my stuff pales in comparison.

Nonetheless, though I say nay to so many things, I have still experienced the tearing-down of a wall today, that being the wall of "$125 first hour, $75 each additional hour." This is actually fueled by my recent slowdown, and since I have nothing to lose (and am no longer the least expensive option by any margin), I see no reason why I shouldn't try to charge more and possibly offer new services. I've also decided to try an ala-carte modality for the time being, and see how that works for me. Is my website(s) going to change? Probably not, because I don't have time to update them as of Aug 31.

[tim]

There's no photo of me on my website, and nothing about me either.

I'd like to hear the boomarang story!

[form]

My girlfriend and her son were playing with a boomerang at Sunset Park last week, and he was throwing it toward the artificial "pond," which is a murky-watered, duck and goose-inhabited body of water about 150 feet wide and perhaps 500 or 600 feet long.

He threw it too far. They had nothing to fish it out with, and they had to leave because of prior engagements, so I grabbed a thin 20'-long rope and a bungee cord, as well as fishing reel with tackle box, plus a rake, and went to the pond to fish it out (I wasn't there when they were playing).

By the time I got to the pond, the boomerang was about 50 feet away from the shore and just floating around the same area. The rope wasn't long enough, and after a few minutes I discovered that I was no good at casting with the fishing rod, so I got the rice cakes out of my car and decided to draw the birds in and hopefully use their wind and water motion to bring the boomerang closer to me.

That was the best idea thus far. When I saw one or more ducks/geese coming in my direction, I would position myself so their path to me would intersect the boomerang's location. After about 10-15 minutes of shifting around and feeding the birds, they had brought it to within 20 feet of the shoreline, and I started swinging the rope with bungee cord attached for anchoring (and the slightest chance of hooking the boomerang). I threw, missed, pulled in, threw, came close, pulled in, repeat, repeat, repeat, until the boomerang was so close to the shore that I actually connected and tugged it in the rest of the way to the shore line. Now, from where I was standing the water was about 6-8 feet down and I was neither going to jump in nor could I reach it with my hands. So, when the boomerang was finally at the base of the concrete that borders the pond, I twirled and dipped the rope until I got a loop around the boomerang, then gave it a sharp tug, and the boomerang landed in the dirt to my right.

Thus ends the boomerang story. I spent about 30-40 minutes out there, maybe more, with this black senior citizen watching me from his park bench resting spot during the endeavor. I enjoyed it, not because he was watching, but because it was a challenge that I could meet.

[tim]

Clever :)

[Gentleman Villain]

The housing bubble drove the Vegas economy

People moved here from California with money to spend because they had sold their homes in Cali and made a huge profit. The people that lived in Vegas for awhile had enough equity in their homes that they were able to charge up their credit cards and take out 2nd mortgages...so they were throwing lots of money around. Then all of the people that worked in the real estate and other service industries in Vegas had a lot of money to throw around too

But the real estate bubble is over...and so Vegas is going to slow down. People are not going to get married as much...people aren't going to spend as much on weddings. Everything is going to slow down.

There are a lot of people that think this is just a slow period and the economy will recover. That's true, but it won't be the same as it was before. What worked in the old economy is not necessarily going to work in the new economy.

For example, a lot of the bad competition in photography came from people that had purchased gear on easy credit. Now the easy credit is gone...so gear is going to be much more expensive to purchase. This will help take out a lot of the competition. A lot of photographers that own real estate are going to get hit very hard. Many photographers that have lots of employees and overheard are going to go bankrupt during this period.

A young person....should take all of this into consideration. It's a bad time to start a business...but it's an excellent time to sit back and let the competition fall apart...then start up a business later after a lot of the competition is wiped out by the changing economic conditions.

I would say...hold your cards close and play them later

[form]

Although I purchased 95% of my stuff on credit, I paid everything off quickly and owe nothing on any of it right now. I think the bubble burst was a while ago, and although those with more overhead may be suffering presently, there are still an amazing number of new photographers popping up locally and offering dirt-cheap prices. Some of them even lay claim to Nikon D3, D700 cameras, etc. I somehow think many of them are here to stay.

[Gentleman Villain]

Although I purchased 95% of my stuff on credit, I paid everything off quickly and owe nothing on any of it right now. I think the bubble burst was a while ago, and although those with more overhead may be suffering presently, there are still an amazing number of new photographers popping up locally and offering dirt-cheap prices. Some of them even lay claim to Nikon D3, D700 cameras, etc. I somehow think many of them are here to stay.

That means you're already at an advantage over the people that are going to be starting later that won't have the same access to easy credit. The future competition won't be able to start up as easily as you did

the housing market is nowhere near bottom...it's not going to bottom until the dollar collapses

[form]

I may not have debt, but I do have expenses that are going to pile up if I don't get adequate work to pay for them. As mentioned before, I can still sell my equipment, put things on my CCs or take out student loans if necessary, but I really don't want to. It's an unpleasant possibility.

[jwilson]

As Tim says, the downturn has been something fierce Joey. I won't even say how far off my business has dropped but it's quite bad, and I price pretty much in the middle for my area. If not for all the pro-bono coverage I'm donating lately to worthy non profit organizations, I wouldn't be shooting much at all. But at least with these groups they appreciate the work and I've been networking with a variety of company executives and such.

It's bad right now, but things should turn around eventually now that we have a more intelligent administration that knows how to constructively get things done. In my area we've about hit bottom. Your housing market in Nevada really hit the skids too in the past 18 months. People can't even afford to stay in their homes let alone pay for good wedding work.


Yeah, okay...they sure do know how to get things done. They know how to triple our debt in one day; they know how to propose and advocate for legislation that they don't even take the time to read; they know how to help out the foreign auto companies (CforC was a bigger help for Toyota and Honda than it was for the US companies). They know how to preach transparency without really practicing transparency - whatever happened to Obama's pledge to post proposed legislation on the website for the American public to review for 5 days prior to signing?); they know how to demoralize those charged with the security of our country, ie. CIA, military...they know how to take over the auto industry and then hand it over to their Union brethren....what good is intelligence if your belief system is all mucked up?

[wickerprints]

Yeah, okay...they sure do know how to get things done. They know how to triple our deficit in one day; they know how to demoralize those charged with the security of our country, ie. CIA, military...they know how to take over the auto industry and then hand it over to their Union brethren....what good is intelligence if your belief system is all mucked up?

Keep political topics out of the discussion, please. You're opening up a can of worms that's going to get this thread closed.

[Karl Johnston]

One of the reasons I initially put together a $6K package was to make me look like a higher end photographer. People booking it was a nice bonus! Now I have to make a larger package, but I don't know what else to put into it.

Maybe you could do the same - entry level packages stay the same, with higher options available.
Digital picture frames?:D I have no idea, not my business but I wonder about these little novelties and if they have any potential ...

I dunno about that slideshow site, bobby..man was it a bitch to load and i couldn't figure out how to turn off the music afterwards

[sapearl]

I wouldn't sell the gear - relatively speaking, that would only put a small dent in educational expenses. After a period of time you'd still have school bills, but then no gear to earn potential revenue.

Don't load those credit cards. That's why so many are in bankruptcy today.

I may not have debt, but I do have expenses that are going to pile up if I don't get adequate work to pay for them. As mentioned before, I can still sell my equipment, put things on my CCs or take out student loans if necessary, but I really don't want to. It's an unpleasant possibility.

[RDKirk]

As has already been mentioned, you're going to have to "up your game."

You priced yourself at the very bottom of the market--people who were only one step above buying disposable cameras and doing it themselves, people who didn't see a real value to wedding photography in the first place...or they would have been shopping for more than just price.

Because they cared so little about photography in the first place, you were always in danger of being dropped off their list the moment their budgets tightened.

You have to go after people who care enough about photography to pay good money for it. This is a reasonable proposition--after all, the photography will be the keepsake they will have of the wedding when the honeymoon is over. They would be much better off buying fake flowers and getting a real wedding photographer than to get real flowers and a fake wedding photographer.

You want clients who value photography enough that it's not the first thing to drop off their lists--those will be people who are also willing to pay.

[LBaldwin]

Joey,

In all honesty I think you are probably suffering from the slow down in your area of available gigs and too many shooters. But that aside, I think, looking at your work you are not charging near enough for the quality level.

You depended on a few wesbites and listings and when the area was saturated with weddings it was a fish in a barrell situation. You now have to compete with folks who did the same thing you did, providing cheap images all on a CD for next to nothing.

This does a few things, one it lowers the overall pricing to other pros in your area. It makes it tougher to compete. You took business from them by lowering your prices. IMO there is a huge disconnect in your pricing and the very good quality level.

Two other photographers, guys with cameras, Uncle Bob's as weekend shooters will come in, see your prices or get your prices and then undercut you. So in some ways you are getting a taste of your medicine. I am not trying to be rude, this is not a new situation, it has happened for years all across the photographic spectrum.

You now have a problem, you can either cust your costs and try and compete with lower priced photographers for fewer and fewer shoots or you can start to target higher paying wedding clients.

You ARE losing cash in a few area.
1. All images on a CD. If you give them away they can reprint to their hearts desire and you never make another penny for the work you put in.

2. Unlimited photos taken during the event. Really? So if you broke it down on a per image basis how much PROFIT did you make from each image?

3. Purchase prints fom online proofing gallery. Instead of allowing another company to take profits from you and giving them responsibility for your printing, do it your self, and control the quality, number and pricing of each image printed. This protects your copyright (something you seem to ignore, I am guessing), it also raises the quality level of the product printed and delivered to the client.

Most wedding photographers need to make a profit of 30% in order to stay in business. Have you done a complete CODB? If it takes you 30 days to do a few hundred images and burn to CD, how much did you make per hour including prep time, shoot time, PP time and delivery of finished images. Then subtract your CODB for that same 30 days, Computer usage, website costs, travel expenses, camera rental or ownership costs, electricity, gas, etc. My guess is you are not making a profit but bleeding money PRIOR to the slowdown in business even though you were working more.

[form]

I've already calculated the remaining expenses over the next 2 years, and, excluding the semester I've already paid for, I'm looking at about $2000 each for the following two semesters, and around $2500 for the final semester. That includes about $700/semester for gas, plus between $580 and $750/semester for tuition, $150 to $500/semester for books, $120-$150/semester for health insurance, and about $150/year for physical examination, TB skin test, etc. Then, I tag on an extra 10-20% just for good measure, and that gives me about $8000 on the high side. Living expenses aren't factored in because they are handled with different resources.

The bottom line is, even if the worst case scenario occurs and my expenses are twice what I estimate, I still have enough between my equipment , CCs and available student loans, and I could pay for everything in a fairly short time once I finally get my degree and a full-time job. What's more, between semesters I am going to work my @$$ off as much as I can, and between spring and fall, there's about a 2-month gap, so I can easily make enough to pay for one semester in that amount of time. I am also going to do small jobs during each semester, depending on available time.

I am going to get through college one way or another; it's only a 2 year program, and all prereqs are done.

In response to the last post....

There is a growing oversaturation of photographers in my area and I do not stand out enough to be above the crowd. The market is still saturated with new weddings, but there are many more photographers trying to grab a piece of it. However, on TheKnot, I still see the same few photographers come up: Bently & Wilson, Cohens Photography, Toner Photography, Ron Miller, Chelsea Nicole, John Morris, myself (rarely), and a few other one/two-time used groups listed. Therefore, on that board the list of recommended photographers hasn't grown so much.

I've heard all the different people saying that by setting low rates I'm dragging down the rest of the industry. I know that the people who want better photography or higher prices will seek them out because of the value they place on it, so I really don't buy that, except with the latest batch that undercuts even the previous lowest prices by about 70% or more.

My costs are already low (providing everything on DVD disc helps), and I haven't bought any new equipment in about 4 months. I will not charge less than I already do, but I have decided to consider charging more.

Putting images on CD is the latest thing, and most photographers offer it, especially budget photographers. The CD option is not going to go away, and anyone who refuses to offer it while the vast majority of local, similarly-priced competition does is shooting themselves in the foot.

Tell the unlimited photos thing to some of the best photographers in the world, who charge thousands, tens of thousands for their work, and shoot thousands and thousands of photos. Time is infinitely more valuable than the number of shutter clicks, and it would not make sense to base the value of my services on the number of photos I take during a wedding instead of the amount of time I'm expending. Plus, it feels better: Would you rather feel like you're making 35 cents per photo, or $100 per hour?

There's a program that allows you to handle all of the printing options and fulfill orders yourself at the printing place of your choice, with no middle-man. It's been mentioned on the forum before.

It looks like you read my website faq. That time estimate is a round guess and does not mention other things that take up some of that time, such as personal life, school, etc.

[sapearl]

That's actually pretty cheap tuition and other expenses.... I don't even want to THINK about what we had to go out of pocket for our daugther's degrees.

Your expense numbers aside, you need to pay close attention what Les said. He has offered some excellent advice, especially regarding images on a disk, and having a lab print for you. I work closely with a local pro lab and I couldn't be happier with the quality and services offered. And once you're into prints, albums are the next step.

Unfortunately you are a victim of your own success: you dropped in, skimmed the cream, made out well for a while....... and now the other newcomers are doing the same to you; unfortunate economics but today's reality.

[form]

Yes the college used to be community college, they're about half the price of UNLV and their standards and teaching quality are actually better in many programs.

I can't NOT offer CDs because almost everyone in town does it. However, I am also not going to give them away the same way as I used to.

[scorpio_e]

In order to have other packages, I would have to be able to put out albums and prints. I've never done either one for weddings, and I have no experience with albums. Those are the two main offerings for weddings besides retouching photos and providing them on DVD. I could offer prints, but why would anyone want them if they can get DVD discs for less? As for albums, I would never be willing to give less than the best quality, but that would skyrocket my prices....and I'd need to learn how to assemble them, which is something I don't know at all.

What else could I add?


I would give them CD with lower rez images so they can make 4X6 and 8X10 gift prints and of course even low rez images for their web pages.

Tell them that the large size prints come from you.
I would sell them Canvas wraps as art work.

[scorpio_e]

Your wedding work is awesome!!!!

[tim]

Your wedding work is awesome!!!!

It'd say it's fine, maybe good. It's underpriced though, uncle bob prices with new professional quality.

When people give opinions you have to consider the level of the person giving the advice - I have no idea what your photos are like btw.

[airfrogusmc]

It'd say it's fine, maybe good. It's underpriced though, uncle bob prices with new professional quality.

When people give opinions you have to consider the level of the person giving the advice - I have no idea what your photos are like btw.

The problem as Tim is getting at is when your prices are that low everyone is your competition. I have a good friend that is very high end and he usually doesn't get hurt when things get ugly but he is hurting some this time around but not like some of the low end guys. If your slow nows a great time to reconsider your price structure and get a portfolio under your arm and go talk to some of the catering managers in some of the finer hotels and casinos.

[form]

Not to revive this thread, but as a side note I haven't booked any new weddings for at least 2 months, and those craigslist photographers are actually getting less expensive. I'm seeing more and more cheap advertisements, like $200/$300 for 8 hours of photography with two photographers and all retouched photos on DVD disc. I can't do that, it's like getting paid $5/hour and my time has to be much more valuable than that in order for my time management situation to stay intact.

[tim]

If you try to compete on price you'll usually lose. Compete on quality, or service, or something. Be different. Don't ask me how though.

[kja]

+1 for Tim, Les, Bobby et al. Forget about being the cheapest. Forget about being low end.

Figure out how to add some sizzle (thank Lloyd - picturecrazy - for that) not only to your site & presentation but also to what you offer. Just because "everyone else does it" doesn't make it a good thing for you. Try something different. Create your market.

It doesn't happen overnight and you'll have to WORK at it to get results. What are you actually doing day in, day out to generate business, income, individuality, interest?

You want to see someone who's flown through this stuff? Check out Bobby Earle (http://www.bobbyearle.blogspot.com/). He's generously tried to help you in this thread already, too.

He had a plan, he's in a very competitive area and he's as busy as he wants to be. He's living the dream of doing something he loves and living the life he wants right now. Why? Because he's out there, he's being different, he's offering things no one else does, he's creating his own Bobbyverse. No one is handing that to him. He's earning it.

And he's succeeding. Couldn't think of a better role model for you off the top of my head.

[form]

Actually, I'm not doing anything to promote right now except getting reviews on weddingwire from previous brides. My website just doesn't get many hits since many of the other photographers started offering massive discounts. I am a much more cut and dry (and honest) person than they are, and I don't have any time to do promoting now.

Bobby is much better at photography than I am. I don't have such a desirable style or skill with posing people and getting the chemistry to show up. I hit a plateau last year and really stopped progressing, so I know where I stand and what I can offer, and it's not on the same level. What worked for him won't work for me because I don't have the same level of product to offer.

[airfrogusmc]

Hey bro I'm sorry things aren't going well for you but Vegas has been hit HARD with unemployment at over 13% but its rare I see a successful photographer with such a defeatist attitude. In even a good market to be successful and have a successful business with longevity its like Tim said you have got to figure out a way to separate yourself from the herd or you'll just be one of the herd and a lower price can do it but do the math at 300 per wedding how many do you have to do to pay the mortgage? Are there enough weekends in the year?

Tims been around for a while and I'm sure he's seen good years and bad. The true measure of how is how you handle a bad year and how you are positioned to help pull yourself out of it. Competing with the low ballers might be a way for short term gain but will kill you in the long run unless you are able to do an incredible volume.

I have a good bud that shoots very high end weddings/portraits. He said if everyone is shooting low key then its time to start shooting high key. I guess the point is do you see something in your work thats different and unique and is it different than what everyone else is doing and is it marketable? There is always something that you have that no one else can bring to the table. Your vision, but if all you've been doing is copying the herd then thats going to be tough to start now.

[form]

Like I said, since the other photographers started dropping prices my business really tanked. I am not dropping my prices like they are, and so I am not getting many inquiries.

I don't have anything that separates me now. When I started, I distinguished myself by being the only budget photographer who retouched the photos. Now, everyone retouches the photos (most of them badly) in the budget range too.

I can't do more than 1 wedding per month right now. I am thinking about teaming up with a high quality retoucher and having them do my processing in exchange for pay. I am okay with retouching but I do not have the time or patience to really refine the photos.

[airfrogusmc]

Like I said, since the other photographers started dropping prices my business really tanked. I am not dropping my prices like they are, and so I am not getting many inquiries.

I don't have anything that separates me now. When I started, I distinguished myself by being the only budget photographer who retouched the photos. Now, everyone retouches the photos (most of them badly) in the budget range too.

I can't do more than 1 wedding per month right now. I am thinking about teaming up with a high quality retoucher and having them do my processing in exchange for pay. I am okay with retouching but I do not have the time or patience to really refine the photos.

So what are you going to do? If you had placed yourself in a market that doesn't get hurt the same way the lower end markets get hit you might still be hurt but not out.

In this slow time why don't you LEARN to really retouch yourself? Its a way to see your vision all the way through and if you do it a lot better than everyone else then theres a way you could separate yourself. You could see this down time as a time to re-invent yourself. The only time its to late is when you've quit.

I've been in the photography business a very long time and have seen ups and downs. If you run with the low end shooters this is going to happen time and time again.

[bobbyz]

I like your new site.Still things can be improved. Not sure why link to old web site is at very top. Your site says photoesk but email is photoesk@embarqmail.com. Why not something like info@photoesk.com or joey@photoesk.com? I would remove "Wedding Photography - Starting at $200" on the Services page. I don't know anything about weddings but basic retouching can't be that hard. I have tried Portraiture plugin and it makes life so easy. I bet there are other automated softwares out there. I will spend couple of hundred bucks on something which makes my life easier. Not sure why how many photos you take matters that much. I can fire my 1dmk2 at 8fps and get hundreds in small amount of time but they will worthless if I don't know what I am doing and or put thought into them before taking the shots. I will go for quality over quantity but you going the other way. Maybe it is different mkt that you target.

I will say join some professional associations and network with folks in your area. Since you still in school, learn more photography related stuff. You don't seem to have regular 8-5 job like some of us. So use that time.

[form]

No, I have a 24-hour college life now. I'm getting a tiny break at the moment, and that's why I've been posting.

[snyderman]

I'm not going to berate you for anything you do today, or have done in the past. Just tell you what I think is happening in the marketplace today for just about ANY good or service.



Whatever price you throw out, a discount in the range of 50-60% is 'expected' by customers today.



You should offer a 'package' at every price point. Just make clear that for this amount of payment, this is what I'm ABLE to deliver.



A lot of people expect Mercedes Benz style and quality but only have enough cash for a Hyundai. Unfortunately, they truly EXPECT a 'Benz at Hyundai pricing anymore!

dave

[cory1848]

Business has dropped everywhere...Its bad in Orlando too. I look at it as a challenge though...Been doing tons of research on the still successful people booking lots of weddings and seeing what they are doing right. I am currently working on revamping my packages, pricing, will start to offer albums and other print products.

I am tired of Craigslist, it serves its purpose but like you are experiencing, always someone willing to offer the world for free.

[airfrogusmc]

Business has dropped everywhere...Its bad in Orlando too. I look at it as a challenge though...Been doing tons of research on the still successful people booking lots of weddings and seeing what they are doing right. I am currently working on revamping my packages, pricing, will start to offer albums and other print products.

I am tired of Craigslist, it serves its purpose but like you are experiencing, always someone willing to offer the world for free.

The real secret is to put yourself into a position so your market isn't one that would be effected by those using low ballers or Craigs list to shoot their weddings. ;)

[symbolphoto]

I am a much more cut and dry (and honest) person than they are, and I don't have any time to do promoting now.

Bobby is much better at photography than I am. I don't have such a desirable style or skill with posing people and getting the chemistry to show up. I hit a plateau last year and really stopped progressing, so I know where I stand and what I can offer, and it's not on the same level. What worked for him won't work for me because I don't have the same level of product to offer.

Sounds to me like you aren't willing to make the proper sacrifices and come out of your shell to really make a difference. I'd hate to put it this way, but just give up now. Why bother to continue if your heart and soul aren't into it? I'd hate to be all philosophical on the subject, but let's get a few facts straight about wedding photography. In very generalistic terms;

1. If you get into wedding photography to only become rich, you are going to fail.
2. If you compete on price alone, you are going to fail.
3. If you aren't fully 'into' wedding photography and keeping up your skills or even surpassing your competitors, you are going to fail.

I think everyone sees wedding photography as an easy buck. And at first it can be... but soon the realities start to kick in. The deliverables start to add up. And your free time goes out the window.

Then you are stuck sitting there asking yourself, is wedding photography still exciting and interesting to me? Do i really love it, or do i just like the money from it?

If you can't answer yes and you love it, to those questions, just stop now. It's real easy to just sum it up to you are not one to pursue things and give up easy. And if your heart and sould really isn't with this business, then i say just let it go.

.02

N

[kja]

I'm sorry to be so blunt, but reading and rereading your posts here - why should you be working as a photographer? You don't seem to offer anything at all to your clients. And I'm not talking about prints or cds blah blah blah...I'm talking about that something that clicks with a client so they want you. And trust me, no matter how bad things are if you build that something, they will come. Despite what people say, a great number of times in photography it isn't about the money. If you simply price yourself so low that it worries you, that will show and no one will be interested. But you have to get off the butt and get out there. Again, no where in this thread do I see even a smidge of willingness to do this.

You don't seem to be doing anything for yourself. You continue to "advertise" in avenues that aren't working, that aren't targeting a market you want and that AREN'T working. Hello?? You need to change. It's really as simple as that.

Now, if you aren't willing to work at this, then I agree with mumbles. Quit now, find something that does stir your passion and that you are willing to work for. Nothing I've seen in this thread shows that you have the slightest intention of working to build a business OR become a better photographer.

So you aren't as good YET as someone else? Big deal. Stop comparing yourself to others. Look at them, learn what you can, apply the things that might work for you. Go from there. Pick up the damned camera and go shoot. Try something new or just get better at what you are doing now. Getting good takes time and it takes heart and it takes practice. It takes a willingness to fubar some stuff that you try then to go back and work out how to do what you want to do.

What worked for Bobby, for example, WILL work for you. It's not about copying his style or doing exactly the same thing at all and you need to dump that mindset. It's about creating something that is YOU, something that is special or different or unique, something that you can excite clients with/by, something that meets the needs of the clients you want. That's how you create a successful business. You must go to the clients and build the need then supply the service.

Do you even have any idea who you would like as clients? Have you done a business plan? Have you at least sat down and thought - if I could choose I'd really like to shoot 40 weddings a year at $1000 each shooting time only. Then tried to figure out strategies to do that? I'm guessing you haven't done any groundwork.

My best advice if you want to actually become a working photographer, get over the pity party and start WORKING. No one is going to hand you things whether now when a lot of people are feeling a pinch or later when things are all hunky-dory again.

[form]

Whenever somebody says to someone else, "Just go and get better by working at it," I have to wonder what the outcome would be if the speaker took their own advice.

It's really, really easy to tell someone that if they go out, work hard, and strive to achieve something, then they will become great. It's really not so easy to do it yourself, and the reality is that you may not become great at something just because you work hard at it. As much as I dislike the idea, I have to accept that people have limits, and those limits are different for each person. It just doesn't seem to be true that all people are universally capable of achieving greatness in anything they choose.

In general, giving advice - whether about lifestyle, business, development of a skill or trade, etc. - is much easier than implementing it. For that matter, living advice is a much better and more effective teacher than giving it, because a real life example shows the end result, while the words just state the "desired outcome."

[FlyingPhotog]

If you think you're done .. you're done.

[sapearl]

Are you saying that at your youthful age, you have already tried everything possible, and have decided that you have achieved nothing but obstacles and your limitations?

You have barely begun.

I've tried to give you constructive advice over the past year like many others here, but your general response is to whine about your bad luck, your so called lack of talent, and the other competition.

You expect too much in too short a time.

You really haven't paid your dues like the truly successful folks on this forum - and elsewhere - who have been at it for years.... many for decades. It didn't come to them over night. They had to develop their craft, experience, and unique styles.

Yes, the economy is really bad and things are in a slump.

My "paid" shooting volume is way down, but my pro-bono volunteer work for non-profit and charitable organizations is WAY UP. I'm using this downtime to boost my efforts to organizations that are non-profit and can't really afford me, but who really benefit from my work and show their appreciation for the effort, and know how to use the images to advance their work in the community.

Not only do they benefit, but this keeps me sharp and near the top of my game, networks me like hell, and gets my name out to Boards of Trustees, CEO's and business managers.

Sure I wish there was some pay involved, but at least these other "can do people" are seeing a busy, optimistic, energetic photographer, working hard, donating his time, and showing a great positive attitude. And attitude is what it's all about. People do treat you according to way you act, and the demeanor you carry.

You have a truly defeatist attitude and probably should try another line of work. I agree with Jay's statement: "If you think you're done .. you're done." I think that most of the recent posters who have given you their advice, have in fact lived it. We are not talking from some ivory tower vacuum.

Whenever somebody says to someone else, "Just go and get better by working at it," I have to wonder what the outcome would be if the speaker took their own advice.

It's really, really easy to tell someone that if they go out, work hard, and strive to achieve something, then they will become great. It's really not so easy to do it yourself, and the reality is that you may not become great at something just because you work hard at it. As much as I dislike the idea, I have to accept that people have limits, and those limits are different for each person. It just doesn't seem to be true that all people are universally capable of achieving greatness in anything they choose.

In general, giving advice - whether about lifestyle, business, development of a skill or trade, etc. - is much easier than implementing it. For that matter, living advice is a much better and more effective teacher than giving it, because a real life example shows the end result, while the words just state the "desired outcome."

[kja]

ROFL Honey, it's not my business that's going in the toilet ;)

You clearly don't want to do it, so don't. Easy. Move on.

If you think you're done .. you're done.
Amen. And I am.

[bnlearle]

Whenever somebody says to someone else, "Just go and get better by working at it," I have to wonder what the outcome would be if the speaker took their own advice.

It's really, really easy to tell someone that if they go out, work hard, and strive to achieve something, then they will become great. It's really not so easy to do it yourself, and the reality is that you may not become great at something just because you work hard at it. As much as I dislike the idea, I have to accept that people have limits, and those limits are different for each person. It just doesn't seem to be true that all people are universally capable of achieving greatness in anything they choose.

In general, giving advice - whether about lifestyle, business, development of a skill or trade, etc. - is much easier than implementing it. For that matter, living advice is a much better and more effective teacher than giving it, because a real life example shows the end result, while the words just state the "desired outcome."
It's always easier to say than to do. Of course. However, that doesn't mean what's being said is crap - just that it's easier said than done, is all. So you could say that about any advice.

you: I want to run a marathon.
me: awesome! you should probably train a few times a week for that.
you: easier said than done.
me: yep. and therefore???

I worked my face off last year and the year before to get where I got. I'm not the best photographer, but I'm super consistent at what I do and do that every time. That's the case NOW! Two years ago it was a different story. But yeah, I worked my like crazy to continue my web presence, get better at photography, book any wedding I could... People tend to assume that I'm lucky for being close friends with mega photographers, but I was booking weddings at $5,000 a piece before I met any of my top ten photographer friends (not at all implying that friends haven't helped me - they have - just saying, it wasn't handed to me).

I recently read that if you see someone on the top of a mountain, they didn't stumble there. Fact is, SoCal is FAR more competitive than Las Vegas is. There are at least as many (and likely more) shoot and burners here for $200 than anywhere in the world. There are also more incredible wedding photographers in SoCal than anywhere, I'd argue. It's easy as pie to be a wedding photographer. It's hard as hell to be a successful one.

Go outside your market if LV sucks (which I don't buy that it does significantly anymore than anywhere else. I think the problems you have would happen anywhere). You're a few hours from SoCal, for example. Have you ever even tried to book a wedding anywhere else?

Bottom line, you (at this point, at least) do not have what it takes to be a successful wedding photographer. You give up too easy, make too many excuses, and have a terribly negative outlook. Sell your extra gear that you don't need (whatever is additional to your hobby photography), stay in college, get a degree in something you're good at, and I'm sure it'll all work out for you.

OR

Man up, realize that you won't make money for a while, get better at photography, hone your business skills, become a more interesting blogger, pay attention to what makes the successful photographers successful, and have a can do attitude. That's a start. If you want it, go get it. If you don't, give it up. Seriously ;)

Bobby

[bnlearle]

+1 for Tim, Les, Bobby et al. Forget about being the cheapest. Forget about being low end.

Figure out how to add some sizzle (thank Lloyd - picturecrazy - for that) not only to your site & presentation but also to what you offer. Just because "everyone else does it" doesn't make it a good thing for you. Try something different. Create your market.

It doesn't happen overnight and you'll have to WORK at it to get results. What are you actually doing day in, day out to generate business, income, individuality, interest?

You want to see someone who's flown through this stuff? Check out Bobby Earle (http://www.bobbyearle.blogspot.com/). He's generously tried to help you in this thread already, too.

He had a plan, he's in a very competitive area and he's as busy as he wants to be. He's living the dream of doing something he loves and living the life he wants right now. Why? Because he's out there, he's being different, he's offering things no one else does, he's creating his own Bobbyverse. No one is handing that to him. He's earning it.

And he's succeeding. Couldn't think of a better role model for you off the top of my head.
:oops: :D You're too kind, Kristin ;)

[airfrogusmc]

Whenever somebody says to someone else, "Just go and get better by working at it," I have to wonder what the outcome would be if the speaker took their own advice.

It's really, really easy to tell someone that if they go out, work hard, and strive to achieve something, then they will become great. It's really not so easy to do it yourself, and the reality is that you may not become great at something just because you work hard at it. As much as I dislike the idea, I have to accept that people have limits, and those limits are different for each person. It just doesn't seem to be true that all people are universally capable of achieving greatness in anything they choose.

In general, giving advice - whether about lifestyle, business, development of a skill or trade, etc. - is much easier than implementing it. For that matter, living advice is a much better and more effective teacher than giving it, because a real life example shows the end result, while the words just state the "desired outcome."

And I'm I confused about why you posted this thread. Isn't to get advice. I, for one, have followed the same advice I've given you. If it were easy EVERYONE would be successful but the truth is most businesses fail for all kind of different reasons. MOST businesses FAIL. And a few of us have LIVED it and were trying to give you some advice because of the been there done that factor but I guess some just have to learn the hard way.

So what'cha ya gonna do? Keep cry'n about it or do something? But if you keep going down the same road don't be surprised when ya keep ending up in the same ole place. ;)

[medic583]

I'm a wee bit confused after reading through all this...

I did and still do use craigslist as one of my primaries

So people are undercutting you on a site known for cheap deals are getting the business because they have cheaper rates? Isn't that what that site is for... a place for people looking for the best deal/lowest cost? My thinking is the people their are finding what they are looking for... quick and cheap... is that what you want to be and really... is that the target market you are looking for?

Actually, I'm not doing anything to promote right now ...

So if you don't have the time to promote yourself, you most likely don't have the time to shoot weddings right?

Honestly... this is the biggest thing I wonder about... how do you expect people to find you if you don't actively promote yourself? If you don't have the time for marketing or promotion of your business... how do expect to get known or found?

Just word of mouth works for a bit, a fancy web site and google rankings do as well... for a bit... but other than that... what are you doing to draw people in and make them say "heh...I want to hire this guy for the most important day in my life"?

I may not know much about running a business... but from what I've learned about marketing , public relations and public education... you actually have to do some work in getting the information out there in educating the target market you are looking to work with or educate.

If you don't do it or have the time to do it.... who do you expect to do it for you?

[form]

So if you don't have the time to promote yourself, you most likely don't have the time to shoot weddings right?



Actually that's right. At this point, college is consuming almost all of my time, and it's going to consume all of my money. I will probably be selling some of my equipment in about 11 months (after my last booked job, which is scheduled in June 2010), to pay for college.

My girlfriend says I won't sell my equipment. She says I'm a photographer, but I only got started in photography about 4 years ago as a hobby/requirement when I traded assistant/media work for lessons at a local martial arts studio. I started doing paid work about 2.5 years ago. I would miss it a little, but since my last job on the 1st of September, I haven't picked up my cameras for more than taking a photo of a birthday cake. My equipment is getting dusty.

My next wedding shoot is Oct 3, followed by one in late November and an unconfirmed job in late December. I am only doing the next two jobs because I booked them before I knew how much work this semester was going to be. During my break, I would like to fill up late December and the early part of January, and I want to get more work from late May to mid August 2010. I'm currently directing my limited advertisement to those dates.

My goal with photography at this point is to earn enough to pay for my final year of college. This semester is paid for and I should have enough for the next semester, but I will be desperate by next May unless I can get some more work booked. My budget is extremely constrained right now.

I really would like to do one thing that could help my workflow and improve the quality of my output: I want to hire someone very good at retouching, and have them turn my photos into something nicer than I can make them with my limited time and retouching knowledge. This would increase my costs (I'd have to pay the retoucher), but also it would put me a big step above what the budget photographers offer. None of them offer really good retouching at their prices; most are either bad at retouching or only perform basic cleaning like I do.

I still enjoy photography, but I have to survive college and this full-time program is really, really demanding. As far as improving my skill is concerned, there are many photographers whose skill/talent I don't think I could ever match, and so I just remain frustrated with that. I am a perfectionist and get annoyed when I don't become great at things, so I end up making threads like this one when it bubbles up.

[bnlearle]

Retouching won't likely change a thing ;)

[kja]

Retouching won't likely change a thing ;)
Took the words right out of my mouth :cool:

[form]

But someone who can devote more time to tweaking and making more involved color adjustments or doing blemish removal will be going farther in refining the finished product, therefore making a better finished work.

[bnlearle]

There are people who shoot WAY worse then you who make WAY more than you. It's not because of retouching.

I would love to give names of big time photographers who you shoot as good or better than, but I can't do that. They understand how the wedding photography business works, they aren't so easily defeated, and they aren't necessarily concerned with all the other photographers that are better than them. You are somewhat opposite all of that.

But yeah, outsourcing your processing is the last thing you need to do.

[form]

I thought that outsourcing would be a time saver and allow me to do more shooting and make more money as a result of greater time efficiency. I figured I could increase my rates respective to the cost of the pay for retouching. Why wouldn't it be a good idea?

[turbo212003]

I thought that outsourcing would be a time saver and allow me to do more shooting and make more money as a result of greater time efficiency. I figured I could increase my rates respective to the cost of the pay for retouching. Why wouldn't it be a good idea?


Having a positive attitude would be a start.

[kja]

How about using the time to get better and to figure out how to offer your clients something better?

I doubt someone will pay you more because you outsource and do more retouching ... I know I'd hire the person who was giving me more in the first place. If I knew that the tog was concentrating on retouching, I'd totally wonder how bad my photos would be.

I can't believe I'm still getting sucked into this thread...you really haven't shown any interest in even considering how to apply some of the awesome advice you've been given and continue to just be defeatist.

Trust me, that attitude shows to your clients whether you think it does or not.

[form]

I've stated that I don't have the free time to use to focus on photography right now, and that's why I'm looking at things that could speed up my workflow. People wouldn't pay me more just because I'm outsourcing, but because the end product is better than the budget photographers in the area.

When I don't really want a job, I do exhibit less enthusiasm; however, more often than not the brides only see my positive and professional side. I'm not ignorant of how to put the best face forward, and hard lessons are good teachers.

[tim]

But someone who can devote more time to tweaking and making more involved color adjustments or doing blemish removal will be going farther in refining the finished product, therefore making a better finished work.

I don't do much tweaking, color adjustment, or blemish removal.

[kja]

I've stated that I don't have the free time to use to focus on photography right now,

Frankly, if you don't have the time to give the best you possibly can to paying clients - and that means finding time to learn, evolve, improve - then you probably need to concentrate on the things that are important to you now before getting more paying gigs. I understand that you want photography to pay the bills, but you have to pay to play - and you are seemingly totally unwilling to do that. Others in your area seem to willing to get in there and do it so they're getting some business.

And if you're losing out to the $29.95 wonders, well, then, that should be a clue that you seriously need to rethink how you do things. And retouching isn't the answer, I'm pretty sure.

Nothing wrong with not pursuing your photography in a paying way right now but looking for a quick fix so you can charge MORE - yikes. Not very good customer service or dedication to your craft.

[sapearl]

Maybe I got this wrong, but I thought you were trying to book more work. Are you turning jobs away now? People are pretty sharp, and know when you are interested in them...... or not.


......When I don't really want a job, I do exhibit less enthusiasm; however, more often than not the brides only see my positive and professional side. I'm not ignorant of how to put the best face forward, and hard lessons are good teachers.

[form]

I turn jobs away when the person requests dates I can't fill, like any time during the remainder of this college semester. I also redirect/decline jobs when I can't provide what they want, like albums (most people don't ask for them anymore). If a job comes up during a time when I can work freely, I'll jump on it. I am trying to book as much work as I can during my semester breaks. That's where the problem of lack of inquiries comes in.

I'm losing out to the cheaper photographers because I'm just not offering the same discounted prices they do. I can't, and won't, work for 1/3 of what I usually charge. My normal rates weren't really adequate to allow me to afford the best equipment before I needed the money for college. Now that I do need it for college and don't have the time to work as much, lower rates would be even more incompatible with my needs.

I'm not looking for a "quick fix" so I can charge more, but rather a time-saving option where I also end up providing a more refined end product, which is more valuable and therefore more expensive, and by which mode I can charge more only to cover the fees of the retoucher. The time-saving advantage is that I can book more jobs while expending the same amount of time, which makes it more profitable.

[sapearl]

Yes, post work does take a significant of time if you're doing a fair amount of processing on a large number of images. The problem is good people will charge accordingly which will eventually cut into your profits; you get what you pay for.

You will also be tethered to your retoucher's schedule. Want something right away? Sure, but it will likely cost you. And what if they get backed up?

Look Joey, I came to photoshop pretty late in life and managed to teach myself most of the basic post processing skills without too much pain. Sure, it wasn't easy, but I slogged away at it until I got things right. And I asked a lot of questions here and mined the wealth of info provided by my friends at POTN. I try to give back whenever I can too.

The point is, don't be afraid of learning new post skills. It will cut into your time a bit, but in the end you will probably be able to offer faster turnaround, a better product, more creative finishing and really understand the relationship between your shooting and the "darkroom."

I understand how you are a busy student - both my daughters are currently working on Masters and PhD so I see how busy they are. I'm long out of school, but I still work a regular 40 hour work, take care of a house, yard and try not to alienate my wife with too much photography ;). It's a balancing act, but can be done.

You're still young Joey - don't stop learning yet. I'm starting to crowd 60 and try to learn something new each week :D. - Stu

I thought that outsourcing would be a time saver and allow me to do more shooting and make more money as a result of greater time efficiency. I figured I could increase my rates respective to the cost of the pay for retouching. Why wouldn't it be a good idea?

[kja]

I'm losing out to the cheaper photographers because I'm just not offering the same discounted prices they do.

No, you're losing out to cheaper photographers because you haven't targeted the market you want, you haven't worked hard to engage the market you want, you aren't providing services to meet the needs of the market you want and you haven't dedicated your shooting skills to meeting and exceeding the expectations and desires of the market you want.

You don't compete with price-slashers, it's a no-win and a total waste of time.

Yes, post processing takes time (and skill) but that's not what is holding you back.

But this has been said repeatedly before.

[Psychobiker]

Give up. Take a loan. Go to school. When you're finished school, THEN worry about your job!

[sapearl]

Actually pretty good advice - although I'm not sure what loans are going for these days.

Maybe you'd be better off with a totally unrelated part time job.... BestBuy, flipping burgers, any variety of things..... seasonal hiring will be popping soon as we approach the holidays. You won't make super bucks, but it can be steady, reliable, on a schedule... oh, and did I say steady cash flow?

Or, what about a job at the University itself? Both my daughters got jobs in the bookstore and main admin office when they needed extra discretionary cash. Heck, you can specialize in the PC/camera area of the bookstore with your background.

Give up. Take a loan. Go to school. When you're finished school, THEN worry about your job!

[airfrogusmc]

I've stated that I don't have the free time to use to focus on photography right now, and that's why I'm looking at things that could speed up my workflow. People wouldn't pay me more just because I'm outsourcing, but because the end product is better than the budget photographers in the area.

When I don't really want a job, I do exhibit less enthusiasm; however, more often than not the brides only see my positive and professional side. I'm not ignorant of how to put the best face forward, and hard lessons are good teachers.

Then it sounds like you should go to work for a studio that shoots volume, collect the check and be done with it. The studio books the jobs and takes care of everything but the shooting. I shot for a studio like that when I was in college. All I did was shoot the jobs.

[form]

No, you're losing out to cheaper photographers because you haven't targeted the market you want, you haven't worked hard to engage the market you want, you aren't providing services to meet the needs of the market you want and you haven't dedicated your shooting skills to meeting and exceeding the expectations and desires of the market you want.

You don't compete with price-slashers, it's a no-win and a total waste of time.

Yes, post processing takes time (and skill) but that's not what is holding you back.

But this has been said repeatedly before.

You know, just until the last few months, I was the cheaper option, and I was engaging the market I was best suited to provide services for. I also dedicated myself to meeting and exceeding the quality provided by my similarly-priced peers in the area. It's only when the $25/hour or $200 for 8 hours offers came along that my own hits really started to diminish.

I am currently not doing much photography work, in a sense, "giving up," going to school, etc. Between semesters I try to work as much as I can, but otherwise I am already putting aside photography. I may have to take out a loan if I decide not to sell my photography equipment, or if it isn't valuable enough by itself to get me through the last year.

A studio job would not be flexible enough for time, so it's not an option.

[airfrogusmc]

You know, just until the last few months, I was the cheaper option, and I was engaging the market I was best suited to provide services for. I also dedicated myself to meeting and exceeding the quality provided by my similarly-priced peers in the area. It's only when the $25/hour or $200 for 8 hours offers came along that my own hits really started to diminish.

I am currently not doing much photography work, in a sense, "giving up," going to school, etc. Between semesters I try to work as much as I can, but otherwise I am already putting aside photography. I may have to take out a loan if I decide not to sell my photography equipment, or if it isn't valuable enough by itself to get me through the last year.

A studio job would not be flexible enough for time, so it's not an option.

Just shooting weddings on the weekends for a studio isn't flexible enough? :confused:

[form]

No, college pretty much requires me to be studying for hours every single day of the week. There hasn't been a day since the second of September when I spent less than 4-6 hours studying and doing schoolwork, not including attending class. I've been spending more time on the forums lately because it's a way to escape from the overload of schoolwork and take my mind away for brief periods.

[sapearl]

Sounds pretty flexible to me Allen :D. Weekend wedding and event shoots have allowed me to juggle the full time job, photography and family and family responsibilities for over 35 years...... worked for me.

Just shooting weddings on the weekends for a studio isn't flexible enough? :confused:

[sapearl]

So - what about my earlier suggestion for finding part time work on campus? Have you even approached the financial assistance folks on campus to explore what work options may be available to you? Dining halls, bookstores, etc. tend to be very very flexible for the exact reasons you give.

No, college pretty much requires me to be studying for hours every single day of the week. There hasn't been a day since the second of September when I spent less than 4-6 hours studying and doing schoolwork, not including attending class. I've been spending more time on the forums lately because it's a way to escape from the overload of schoolwork and take my mind away for brief periods.

[airfrogusmc]

No, college pretty much requires me to be studying for hours every single day of the week. There hasn't been a day since the second of September when I spent less than 4-6 hours studying and doing schoolwork, not including attending class. I've been spending more time on the forums lately because it's a way to escape from the overload of schoolwork and take my mind away for brief periods.

Then if shooting justing weddings isn't flexible enough how can booking, shooting, PP and helping B&Gs placing orders and putting albums together any more flexible.

YES you are done. Shoot the jobs you have booked, don't book any more finish school and refocus your business when/if you decide to start it up again. Only when you refocus figure out a way to get into a better clientele.

[bobbyz]

Man, looking back, school was quite easy (time flexibility) when I was doing my Master in electrical eng. We rarely had more than couple of classes a week. Sure one had to work on projects and study but nothing like slogging 12-14 hrs a day in a silicon valley startup. Wait till you have full time job and a family.

What I have seen is that one can always get the time for things one is interested in.

[airfrogusmc]

Man, looking back, school was quite easy (time flexibility) when I was doing my Master in electrical eng. We rarely had more than couple of classes a week. Sure one had to work on projects and study but nothing like slogging 12-14 hrs a day in a silicon valley startup. Wait till you have full time job and a family.

What I have seen is that one can always get the time for things one is interested in.

Hey Bobby,
Just an observation from me is those that are successful in business don't quit and don't take failure as an option. They always find a way to make it work. No excuses. If it ain't work'n one way, they find another way and another until it does work. Everyone I've known that has failed always had excuses. The ones that succeed don't have excuses they find answers.

[Psychobiker]

YOU DON'T HAVE THE TIME TO DO EVERYTHING!!

Take the advice given. Stop shooting, even considering it is nuts during final semester if college takes up 'that much of your time'. How long will it be, 6-10 months max?!

Yikes bro, smell the coffee.

[tim]

No, college pretty much requires me to be studying for hours every single day of the week. There hasn't been a day since the second of September when I spent less than 4-6 hours studying and doing schoolwork, not including attending class. I've been spending more time on the forums lately because it's a way to escape from the overload of schoolwork and take my mind away for brief periods.

Last summer I worked a full time job and photographed a wedding every weekend for three months. I had my assistant help me with processing two days a week, but I honestly worked every hour I was awake. Sure I made a bunch of money, but in the end I don't think it was worth it, and if it wasn't for the recession and the job situation at the time here I wouldn't have done it. Mortgages suck sometimes.

[Billo78]

Firstly, what are you studying at college? And why is it taking THAT much time? I remember having loads of free time during my Commerce / Accounting degree and still got through fine.

Secondly, your plan of outsourcing PP work seems to go against the core of your business, ie, to provide good quality cheap photography. A good retoucher will probably take half of what you're currently charging, so if you pass that cost directly on to the client then you're no longer offering cheap photography (you're worth way more than you're charging anyway, but that's a while other story).

Thirdly, do you use Lightroom for your PP work? I do 99% of my PP with LR, it's fast and capable of great results. People don't want or expect airbrished images at your prices, attempting to offer that is crazy and your return on investment (time) is no where near enough to justify offering it.

You seem to be stuck between a rock and hard place. You don't appear to have an absolute passion for photography, but you're not prepared (or able) to commit to the business side of it and turn it into a real money spinner. SO why are you doing it? As others have mentioned you do have other employment options, it might be worth considering some of these?

Oh, and Tim, 40 hours weeks and weddings every weekend for 3 months is HARDCORE, I had 3 out of 4 weekends booked a few months back (alongside full time work) and it almost killed me, took me a long time to catch up and get my life back on track.

[stathunter]

Life has changed drastically for most in the past 10 years - I owned and still am a partner in a company that has been hit hard by the economy in the past ten years -- but I decided in the mist of the mess to open another company and could not convince my current business partners to join me -- that was until I was in the process of selling the company for a large profit. I was able to do this by fighting against all of the odds and the current way of thinking.

For the past several years I have been shooting full time - mostly weddings on Sat - but I have had several weekends where I shot 2-3 weddings on the weekend because I hate to turn away good business.

The photography business is about 20% photography and 80% business -- truth is there are many more people that are better at photography than me -- but I typically can beat them on the business side. I do this by focusing on selling/marketing/networking/referrals and NOT trying to compete with craigslist or really anyone else -- I focus on having clients come to me because they just have to have ME photograph their wedding.

Many photographers are so lost in their "art" that they forget "art" is funded by large corporations/individuals etc - and these people are SOLD by someone -- turn yourself into a sales organization and forget about craigslist etc --- the harder you work the luckier you will become.
I live in an area that there is about 30% unemployment -- if I can survive the wedding industry anyone can. Heck I just had a couple travel across the state to have ME do engagement shots for them -- which they paid about 5 times more than they could have rec'd in their own neighborhood. Remember it is not about price it is about people.

[form]

I haven't found my "passion" yet. I enjoy photography, but my interest in most things is not the skill itself but getting good at it. I use lightroom almost exclusively, and I bought a faster computer during the hayday period to speed up the retouching process. The faster computer cut my processing time down to about 1/3 what it was before.

Although I would enjoy almost any aspect of photography, I don't want to get paid only $13/hour or less, like most local studio jobs pay. That's not a living. Originally, I did photography because I was trading media/design skills for lessons at a martial arts studio. In the process, I became interested in learning as much as I could about the technical aspects of it, and then I moved on to doing paid work later. I enjoy photography, but I also enjoy making money with it. However, in the long term, it is not going to be enough to support myself, and that's what college is for.

The degree I'm going for is a limited entry program, and the college is proud of that particular program. It's very intensive and heavy on reading. I am not a fast reader by default, so that makes it take longer for me.

Outsourcing retouching was a time-saving idea that was built around what others keep telling me: That I could charge more if I wanted to. I was going to charge more, pay the retoucher, and then be able to do twice as many jobs in the same amount of time. It seemed like a good idea to me.

Since a few months ago when local photographers starting bombing their prices to $200/8 hours, I knew I couldn't compete with the rock-bottom theme anymore, so I figured maybe I should just move up to the next level. However, ever since I started trying to charge more, nobody responds back after I give them my prices :(

I'm just another one of those idealists who thinks that people should be paid based on output, not based on business and marketing skill.

[RDKirk]

I'm just another one of those idealists who thinks that people should be paid based on output, not based on business and marketing skill.

Then you need to work for someone who will be doing the business and marketing. Everything needs to be marketed, everything needs to be managed according to some level of business techniques. That is even true in the military--a military component that does not actively "market" its capabilities gets the short end of the budget and eventually goes away.

If you truly believe you can't work and study at the same time, then you can't. If you don't believe it, you can't do it. Get a loan, as has been wisely advised, and just study.

Otherwise, get a job shooting for one of the high-volume companies or as a second-shooter for several studios. You may find them a lot more flexible than you think.

[Lunajen]

I am not willing to buy that showit product, but thanks for the suggestion.



Just so you know....the software for building websites and sideshows, is now free.

[airfrogusmc]

Then you need to work for someone who will be doing the business and marketing. Everything needs to be marketed, everything needs to be managed according to some level of business techniques. That is even true in the military--a military component that does not actively "market" its capabilities gets the short end of the budget and eventually goes away.

If you truly believe you can't work and study at the same time, then you can't. If you don't believe it, you can't do it. Get a loan, as has been wisely advised, and just study.

Otherwise, get a job shooting for one of the high-volume companies or as a second-shooter for several studios. You may find them a lot more flexible than you think.

See, we don't always disagree +++++1;):D PERFECTLY PUT!!!!

[SMP_Homer]

my wedding bookings are down too...
I usually limit myself to 6 per summer (April-Sept) but usually end up with 8-12
I limit those because I do a lot of sports/tournaments, and those also happen on weekends... and family life...
Usually by the time the season comes to an end, I've got at least 3 booked and deposited, and a few leads in the wings... I've got 1 booked/confirmed/deposited and a few possibles... maybe no one is getting married in 2010 ;-)

[sevillafox]

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[FlyingPhotog]

I haven't found my "passion" yet.

To be blunt about it, IMO, this is your death knell as a photographer.

Until and unless photography becomes your passion, you really are off the mark expecting to get a return from an investment (of blood, sweat and tears) that you're unwilling or unable to make. You're honestly asking something for nothing.

If it matters, I'm in the process of walking away from a 25 year broadcasting career because frankly, the thrill is gone. It's become drudgery and it's become work. Don't wanna play any more. The God's honest truth is, I don't want to put forth the effort (airline travel, hotels, catering, being gone 30-40 weekends a year) for what it gets me in return. It's no longer just about the Benjamins...

Oh, and as for wanting to get paid based on output and not marketing skill, here's a life lesson: It's that way everywhere for everything.

Even though I had a helluva run and worked at about the highest levels of sports television one can reach (11 years of NFL including three Super Bowls, 10 years of NASCAR across four different networks, World Series, NCAA BBall Tourney, NHL Playoffs, etc...) there were always those who seemed to shine a little brighter and get ahead faster. Know how they did it? Well, most would call it Ass Kissing and Brown Nosing but it's also known in many circles as Marketing!

As the saying goes: "If you can't dazzle them with your deftness, baffle them with your bullsh*t"

[form]

I can't believe that all of those photographers out there who do it for a fairly good living are solely passionate about photography. There have to be many who do it for the money, not for the love; otherwise, why would they focus so much on marketing?

[Billo78]

Perhaps they're passionate about making money and photography is just their chosen medium, which is fine. The point is you've got to be a very driven person if you want to succeed in running your own business, it takes a lot of time and energy and without a passion behind your efforts it's a mighty tough slog.

As a side note earlier this year I went to a photo convention which had a bunch of speakers, two of whom were Gary Fong and Jose Villa. You couldn't find 2 guys with a more different approach to the craft, but both were extrememly successful in what they did. Gary was very calculating and clever with his marketing and pricing and the business side while Jose hated the financial side and fee negotions with clients, he just wanted to shoot. Each of them played to their own strengths and it worked for them, but I'd wager 99% of photographers would find more success in Gary's business oriented approach. To be able to succeed on talent alone you have to be able to shoot like Jose Villa and there's very few people in the world who can.

[airfrogusmc]

I can't believe that all of those photographers out there who do it for a fairly good living are solely passionate about photography. There have to be many who do it for the money, not for the love; otherwise, why would they focus so much on marketing?

I'm passionate about it after 30+ years. Its not only my living its my hobby. It all depends on what you want to be. Most of the really high end shooters I know are very passionate about photography. They shoot almost as much for themselves as they do for clients.

Any great business man would probably never pursue photography as their business. There are plenty of more lucrative areas with more chance of success than photography to get into. Like Jay said if you don't have that desire then get while the gett'ns good.

[form]

I have respect for the ability to be passionate about something, and I've known people who are like that and have seen what passion can do as far as mastery of a subject. I've also seen that passion doesn't guarantee success, even though it seems to guarantee persistence.

I'm not really passionate about anything, but I like to do things well. Anything that involves a body of knowledge and understanding people is something I can probably do fairly well, but I don't think I have what's needed to master any one skill.

[airfrogusmc]

I have respect for the ability to be passionate about something, and I've known people who are like that and have seen what passion can do as far as mastery of a subject. I've also seen that passion doesn't guarantee success, even though it seems to guarantee persistence.

I'm not really passionate about anything, but I like to do things well. Anything that involves a body of knowledge and understanding people is something I can probably do fairly well, but I don't think I have what's needed to master any one skill.

No one said that it guarantee anything but it does give you an edge if you have everything else going for you. There are plenty of high volume wedding photography studios out there that are very successful. Most are run by business men and most of the owners don't even shoot. They are very cookie cutter formula type wedding studios. The McDonalds approach.

I said earlier we all have choices. You can be high volume low end but if you are low end you had better be high volume or you won't make a living.

Then theres the high end world where clients are coming to you because you're not cookie cutter and because your passion is coming through in everything you do. Its up to you what you want to be and then come the really hard part, finding a way to make it work. Most businesses FAIL.

[form]

I don't want to be low end anymore, but I don't really see myself being able to break in to the middle range.

Here's what I'd like right now...

I want to be able to book one wedding per month, for $1k for about 4-6 hours, and provide the same photos I've been providing to clients on DVD disc, plus an online ordering system (which would be easy to configure). Does that sound like an unreasonable thing?

If I made $1k/month on wedding photography, I could probably put myself through college without having to take out a loan or sell equipment. However, at my current rates, I can't make $1k/month on a single job. Most of my wedding photography gigs are worth between $300 and $500, which means 2-3 jobs/month minimum, and I can no longer manage that volume because of inadequate time.

[airfrogusmc]

I don't want to be low end anymore, but I don't really see myself being able to break in to the middle range.

Here's what I'd like right now...

I want to be able to book one wedding per month, for $1k for about 4-6 hours, and provide the same photos I've been providing to clients on DVD disc, plus an online ordering system (which would be easy to configure). Does that sound like an unreasonable thing?

If I made $1k/month on wedding photography, I could probably put myself through college without having to take out a loan or sell equipment. However, at my current rates, I can't make $1k/month on a single job. Most of my wedding photography gigs are worth between $300 and $500, which means 2-3 jobs/month minimum, and I can no longer manage that volume because of inadequate time.


If you can't see it then it ain't happen'n. Wouldn't life be a lot easier if you were making 5 or 6K per wedding? Maybe then you would only need to do 1 job a month;)

So how are you going to do it? You need to figure it out.

When I switched to corporate comercial work over 10 years ago my min was $5500. I found a way.

[form]

Sure, life would be much easier if I could make that, but I'm not in that class by any means. However, based on frequent opinions, I believe that I could be in the $1k class.

I don't know how to "make it happen." If there's more to it than simply telling all future inquiries my rates, then I don't know what else is involved that is within my reach.

[airfrogusmc]

Sure, life would be much easier if I could make that, but I'm not in that class by any means. However, based on frequent opinions, I believe that I could be in the $1k class.

I don't know how to "make it happen." If there's more to it than simply telling all future inquiries my rates, then I don't know what else is involved that is within my reach.

My point is why do you keep aiming low? You have a great opportunity to re-invent yourself however you want to. The problem is once you've established yourself in a market you are usually stuck in that market. You can move up some but to go from low end to high end once you're full established is very hard to do. Find a really high end photographer in your area and see if you can get on as an assistant or a second shooter while you're in school. Who knows you could even wind up making $300 or $400 a job and not have do do anything but show up and help. Keep your eyes wide open and learn all you can. You will meet and make contacts with all kinds of the RIGHT people.

[sevillafox]

You don't have to be in that class to market to it.

Someone already said that photography business is 80% business (personally I think it's more). Become the kind of businessperson that has enough confidence and bullsh¡tting skills to market to that higher range clientele. Put a little more time and work into your PP....get creative and funky with it....find a gimmick. Heck, you've already been whoring your talent out to the cheap crowd....time to kiss up to some that are willing to spend for a trend. find a cool product to add on....sell them a CD and a killer metallic gallery wrap from WHCC or a super cool image box from dream album or MPix pro. Both not too hard to get done but look great. Stop being a baby, it's time to sh¡t or get off the pot so to speak. Stop thinking and start doing!

[airfrogusmc]

You don't have to be in that class to market to it.

Someone already said that photography business is 80% business (personally I think it's more). Become the kind of businessperson that has enough confidence and bullsh¡tting skills to market to that higher range clientele. Put a little more time and work into your PP....get creative and funky with it....find a gimmick. Heck, you've already been whoring your talent out to the cheap crowd....time to kiss up to some that are willing to spend for a trend. find a cool product to add on....sell them a CD and a killer metallic gallery wrap from WHCC or a super cool image box from dream album or MPix pro. Both not too hard to get done but look great. Stop being a baby, it's time to sh¡t or get off the pot so to speak. Stop thinking and start doing!

YES stop being a baby. I will say in a higher end market you had better be much more than just marketing. You had better have something to offer and not be cookie cutter. But if I can do it anyone can. I'm no marketing genius which in my opinion is mostly common sense but you do have to believe in yourself. If you don't it will come through in everything you do and thats another kiss of death.

[FlyingPhotog]

You don't have to be in that class to market to it.

Someone already said that photography business is 80% business (personally I think it's more). Become the kind of businessperson that has enough confidence and bullsh¡tting skills to market to that higher range clientele. Put a little more time and work into your PP....get creative and funky with it....find a gimmick. Heck, you've already been whoring your talent out to the cheap crowd....time to kiss up to some that are willing to spend for a trend. find a cool product to add on....sell them a CD and a killer metallic gallery wrap from WHCC or a super cool image box from dream album or MPix pro. Both not too hard to get done but look great. Stop being a baby, it's time to sh¡t or get off the pot so to speak. Stop thinking and start doing!

Were you wearing "those boots" when you wrote this Mistress Tiffany?

[sevillafox]

Were you wearing "those boots" when you wrote this Mistress Tiffany?


:lol:

Nope. But I am wearing boots. :lol:

[FlyingPhotog]

:lol:

Nope. But I am wearing boots. :lol:

<SHUDDER>

[form]

My point is why do you keep aiming low? You have a great opportunity to re-invent yourself however you want to. The problem is once you've established yourself in a market you are usually stuck in that market. You can move up some but to go from low end to high end once you're full established is very hard to do. Find a really high end photographer in your area and see if you can get on as an assistant or a second shooter while you're in school. Who knows you could even wind up making $300 or $400 a job and not have do do anything but show up and help. Keep your eyes wide open and learn all you can. You will meet and make contacts with all kinds of the RIGHT people.

That's aiming higher than I was before. $1k would be comfortable for me. I'm not looking to rip people off, and I am not arrogant enough to believe I am worth much more than that. Egotism has been a trait I have put great effort into NOT cultivating.

Right up to this point, I have tried over and over to get hired on as assistant or second shooter. I have been a second shooter several times, but it's not a stable job and most of the time it doesn't make that much.

[airfrogusmc]

That's aiming higher than I was before. $1k would be comfortable for me. I'm not looking to rip people off, and I am not arrogant enough to believe I am worth much more than that. Egotism has been a trait I have put great effort into NOT cultivating.

Right up to this point, I have tried over and over to get hired on as assistant or second shooter. I have been a second shooter several times, but it's not a stable job and most of the time it doesn't make that much.


Well, then its time to quit. ;) Do you know how hard it is to make it? If it was easy everybody would be very successful. How bad do you want it?

I remember being at a lecture where Mark Hauser was speaking and he told the story of going to all the agencies every Monday morning for not weeks but months and months. Every Monday morning every week until one day he says that they must have felt sorry for him and he was there when they got some crappy assignment and they gave it to him just to get him out of the office. He NAILED the assignment and the rest is history. No one ever made it big aiming low or by accident.

If you think you're a $200 per wedding photographer then thats what you are and if you keep giving excuses then my advice is throw in the towel now because it never gets any easier.

[form]

Why should I quit just because I'm not really above the $1k mark now for value? That's better than when I started, and isn't it progressive anyway?

[airfrogusmc]

Why should I quit just because I'm not really above the $1k mark now for value? That's better than when I started, and isn't it progressive anyway?

You should quit for all the reasons in your posts saying you should quit I AGREE you don't have the time. Just like you said. Why did you start this thread? You're the one saying you should quit, so quit.

You keep stating why you can't, when you should be saying trying to figure out HOW you can. There have been some very successful photographers trying to give you advice and you just keep putting obstacles. If you are going to be successful you are going to have plenty of obstacles without you creating your own.

If you don't change your attitude and outlook you will probably not succeed. Its really tough out there as you are finding out and its a very thin line that separates those that do from those that don't succeed. Most business fail. Its not easy to be successful and if you are already doubting, you've already beat yourself.

[sapearl]

And herein lies a major problem as many others have pointed out.

And honestly, I have not been immune either - there have been times when I've been guilty of this viewpoint too. You just need to keep reminding yourself to keep your eye on the ball.

....I'm just another one of those idealists who thinks that people should be paid based on output, not based on business and marketing skill.

[airfrogusmc]

And I remember a thread a long time ago whee you were defending low ballers and someone at that time said that at some point it was probably going to bite you. You wouldn't listen to anyone then either. Consider yourself bitten. Kinda hard to learn when you already have all the answers.

[airfrogusmc]

I'm gonna give ya something. Theres probably not gong to be an immediate payoff but it could have long term benefit and probably what I would do if I were in your shoes.

First sit down and come up with a real pricing strategy. Then look up all the wedding consultants and catering managers in the better hotels and casinos. Clean up and put a suit on and get a portfolio with 15 to 20 of your VERY BEST wedding shots under your arm and go see these catering managers. Don't call just go and try and see them. You are probably going to get a lot of rejection but don't quit.

Do the same with the wedding consultants. Even ask the catering managers who the consultants are that have wedding in their locations. Figure out what you are willing to pay them to recommend you. The consultants will usually take a % of your fee to the B&G on the basic package that they pick if you do packages. 10-15% is usual. Remember they are in business to make money to so if your real cheap they have no incentive to recommend you.

These are all valuable connections. These are all people that can get you work in a higher end world. Its not going to be easy to get in. It can take a lot of time and persistence but if you're given a bone take it a run with it because if you do a great job it can have a big payoff.

It can get your foot in the door of all the higher end venues, florists, videographers, orchestras etc. thats a great network to have. Thats what I would do. If you fail your still where you're at now so you really have nothing to loose.

[form]

Why would they hire someone like me? Based on work alone (not personality), isn't it more likely that they'd work with someone like Bobby Earle and pay no attention to me?

[kja]

Ugh! Get over yourself.

Either get your act together and realize photography is a business or get out and do something else.

Three pages of great advice and you aren't willing to even consider any of it. All you do is make excuses, do the poor pitiful me thing and whine more questions. If you spent 1/4 the energy and time on building the business YOU want that you've spent on this thread alone, you'd be on your way.

You create the business you want by offering to meet the needs of the market you wish to be in - often creating that sense of need in the clients you want. You work hard. You dedicate time and energy. You are worth what you decide you are worth and accept the opportunities, challenges and experiences that brings with it (like maybe you won't be booking every single bride in the area but you will book the brides that are willing to pay what you want to be charging...) And this is with any business, not just photography.

But you're totally right. It's far easier to sit behind your computer and not do anything to help yourself while wondering why the world just doesn't come to you.

[airfrogusmc]

Ugh! Get over yourself.

Either get your act together and realize photography is a business or get out and do something else.

Three pages of great advice and you aren't willing to even consider any of it. All you do is make excuses, do the poor pitiful me thing and whine more questions. If you spent 1/4 the energy and time on building the business YOU want that you've spent on this thread alone, you'd be on your way.

You create the business you want by offering to meet the needs of the market you wish to be in - often creating that sense of need in the clients you want. You work hard. You dedicate time and energy. You are worth what you decide you are worth and accept the opportunities, challenges and experiences that brings with it (like maybe you won't be booking every single bride in the area but you will book the brides that are willing to pay what you want to be charging...) And this is with any business, not just photography.

But you're totally right. It's far easier to sit behind your computer and not do anything to help yourself while wondering why the world just doesn't come to you.

Yep looks like he wants to bitch and have people feel sorry for him.

BTW Thanks for the link.

[tim]

I think everything's been said in this thread, it's just going round in circles now. I think it's time to drop it and let the thread die a natural death.

[form]

Yes probably best for me too; maybe a moderator can lock it.

[T.D.]

Excellent suggestion. Thanks.