Nasty rights grabbing stuff local festival

[Nouks]

Damn, I really need to express my frustrations somewhere...

Okay, first: history.

There's a local experimental art and music festival which I visited as a photographer ALL years except for one. In all cases I was there as a press photographer delivering free promotion for the festival. This year would be the 6th edition, so that means I've been around for 4 years (first, second, 4th and 5th I think) and 2009 would be my 5th year.

Last year I had a really good business relationship with the people who were responsible for the music programme. We did a lot for eachother; I gave them their publicity (interviews, announcements, photography), they gave us all the guest list places we would need and the booking agency bought a photo of mine which I took during the festival.

Soon after the festival I got an e-mail of someone of the organizing organization "great pictures! Please could we use some of those for non-commercial promitonal uses for the edition of next year?"

Well, since I know some about both their budgets for promotion (LOTS) and paying habits (they like not to pay, and if they do: VERY late) I told them there wasn't such a thing as non-commercial promotional use and that they always could inform about the possibilities.

Anyways, I guess they didn't like that. I recently mailed the promotor for accreditation for the festival. I told them I would be there for a webzine in which one photo per photographed artist would be published, and that I would be available at the three Atak-evenings and for the two music evenings on the streets.

Reply: allright, BUT they would ONLY put me on the guest list when I'd also photograph the art part of the festival, AND when I would deliver ALL the photos on server or DVD for free, no more than 3 weeks after the festival.

WHAT?

Are you kidding me?! Is THIS what I photographed 4 out of 5 editions for?!

[René Damkot]

No way I say...
Good to know though. They won't be getting any freebies from me either ;)

[Nouks]

Update: the promotor gave me the phone number of the person asking me for hi-res images for free. According to him (the promotor) she felt like I didn't meet their expections and the agreements last year. Funny, since I never made any agreements with her at all.

Guess I'll call her today or tomorrow.

[johnstoy]

That's a lot to ask of them, for free... Aren't they aware that it costs a lot to take photos with our gear?

[wickerprints]

Well, here's the thing. You set up their expectations by doing things on a free basis to begin with. Sure, neither party really asked for anything for the first few times. But as the saying goes, no good deed goes unpunished. You did something without expecting anything in return, and now they're expecting a level of follow-through on your part because of it.

Second--and this is the really important part--what exactly is it that you hope to get out of this situation? Is it money you want? Why have you attended this event for four years? What I'm getting at here is that even if you weren't explicitly asking for anything, you got something from them. They gave you access to their event and you hoped to leverage that for financial gain, even if they didn't pay you outright.

So it goes both ways here. You don't have to do what they demand, but neither do they have to give you access. Don't be too outraged, because while they are expecting you to conduct a free service for them, you are expecting them to reward you for your loyalty when they didn't ask for it to begin with.

[Nouks]

Okay Wickerprints, I definitely don't agree with your statements.

I think you miss the point I don't have worked for them, ANY of the years. All the years I was working (payed or non-payed doesn't mind) for the magazines/websites I am/were shooting for, NOT for the festival. The magazines/websites asked me to go to the festival for THEM, NOT for the festival. All years I've had accreditation via the magazines/websites, NOT to shoot for the organization themselves. So I never had ANY agreements or obligations to the organization.

I always delivered my photos or copy within the deadline to the people I was shooting for (the magazines/websites) so I have never broken any agreements I have made, nor did I ever made any agreements at all with the organization themselves.

You can call it "wrong expectations set up" by myself, I call it "that's how things go: a magazine asks a photographer to shoot for them, asks the organization for accreditation, and delivers free publicity for the festival". Not ANY festival will pay for their publicity other than their own posters, flyers, promo people, things like that. Not ANY festival in the WORLD (I suppose) will pay the magazine or website for being around and making news. Magazines, news papers, websites, they all want news. The media wants something (news/copy), the festival wants something (publicity), so they "give" it to each other without any money involved.

To answer your second question: I'd like to visit the festival as a photographer. I want the accreditation I (in my opinion) earn. I want to be there on a "regular" "festival gives us accreditation, website gives them publicity" basis.

I usually am pretty fundamental when it gets to "allow eachother to help eachother" and I usually wouldn't even still want to be there, but I just like the festival too much. It's a great festival to be around as a photographer, a welcome variation in the world of performing arts photography.

I don't want them to pay me, I just want them to put me on the guest list and I want them to allow me to do my job, appreciate me for doing so and giving them publicity in advance.

[Rock Photo Star]

Damn, I really need to express my frustrations somewhere...

Okay, first: history.

There's a local experimental art and music festival which I visited as a photographer ALL years except for one. In all cases I was there as a press photographer delivering free promotion for the festival. This year would be the 6th edition, so that means I've been around for 4 years (first, second, 4th and 5th I think) and 2009 would be my 5th year.

Last year I had a really good business relationship with the people who were responsible for the music programme. We did a lot for eachother; I gave them their publicity (interviews, announcements, photography), they gave us all the guest list places we would need and the booking agency bought a photo of mine which I took during the festival.

Soon after the festival I got an e-mail of someone of the organizing organization "great pictures! Please could we use some of those for non-commercial promitonal uses for the edition of next year?"

Well, since I know some about both their budgets for promotion (LOTS) and paying habits (they like not to pay, and if they do: VERY late) I told them there wasn't such a thing as non-commercial promotional use and that they always could inform about the possibilities.

Anyways, I guess they didn't like that. I recently mailed the promotor for accreditation for the festival. I told them I would be there for a webzine in which one photo per photographed artist would be published, and that I would be available at the three Atak-evenings and for the two music evenings on the streets.

Reply: allright, BUT they would ONLY put me on the guest list when I'd also photograph the art part of the festival, AND when I would deliver ALL the photos on server or DVD for free, no more than 3 weeks after the festival.

WHAT?

Are you kidding me?! Is THIS what I photographed 4 out of 5 editions for?!


Nouks, if the people are of character you don't like than forget about the loss. However, if you really want to photograph. Here's the two options I see [that don't involve offering them photographs], maybe others can add more:

1a) Write them a positive letter explaining all the coverage and promotion they have received and will be received [that means numbers of hits of the site, etc.]

1b) Write them the above and also add that you do want to support the festival but its your understanding that they have means to pay, if they can show you otherwise, then you will waive it, otherwise, it is irresponsible for you to do so.

2) Contact each band you want to shoot and ask them to request you be allowed in to specifically shoot them [explain that the promoter want you to give away your work free and just like them, you don't believe in being forced to give up your work without any pay.]

A third option, would be to explain how you are part of a large group of photographers and that it is an ethic to not give photos away because that hurts the value of photography, especially where a party has means to pay. However, if they will make a donation of x amount to a charity, which can be in their name, then you will provide x number of pics of their choice for their promotional use.

[Rock Photo Star]

Okay Wickerprints, I definitely don't agree with your statements.

I think you miss the point I don't have worked for them, ANY of the years. All the years I was working (payed or non-payed doesn't mind) for the magazines/websites I am/were shooting for, NOT for the festival. The magazines/websites asked me to go to the festival for THEM, NOT for the festival. All years I've had accreditation via the magazines/websites, NOT to shoot for the organization themselves. So I never had ANY agreements or obligations to the organization.

I always delivered my photos or copy within the deadline to the people I was shooting for (the magazines/websites) so I have never broken any agreements I have made, nor did I ever made any agreements at all with the organization themselves.

You can call it "wrong expectations set up" by myself, I call it "that's how things go: a magazine asks a photographer to shoot for them, asks the organization for accreditation, and delivers free publicity for the festival". Not ANY festival will pay for their publicity other than their own posters, flyers, promo people, things like that. Not ANY festival in the WORLD (I suppose) will pay the magazine or website for being around and making news. Magazines, news papers, websites, they all want news. The media wants something (news/copy), the festival wants something (publicity), so they "give" it to each other without any money involved.

To answer your second question: I'd like to visit the festival as a photographer. I want the accreditation I (in my opinion) earn. I want to be there on a "regular" "festival gives us accreditation, website gives them publicity" basis.

I usually am pretty fundamental when it gets to "allow eachother to help eachother" and I usually wouldn't even still want to be there, but I just like the festival too much. It's a great festival to be around as a photographer, a welcome variation in the world of performing arts photography.

I don't want them to pay me, I just want them to put me on the guest list and I want them to allow me to do my job, appreciate me for doing so and giving them publicity in advance.

See my post above but the way you feel, it should not be just you but your editor needs to get involve and contact the person an explain the publicity they are losing, bad publicity they are creating and that they find it wrong to compel photogs to provide their work for free when they are already providing publicity for free.

[Nouks]

Well the nasty thing is; both the promotor and the editor know eachother well and are really supportive towards eachother, but the promotor isn't allowed to put me on the guest list without permission of the organization.

Anyways, all fixed. I'll still be taking photos, but in the end I didn't arrange it with the organization :)

[Rock Photo Star]

Well the nasty thing is; both the promotor and the editor know eachother well and are really supportive towards eachother, but the promotor isn't allowed to put me on the guest list without permission of the organization.

Anyways, all fixed. I'll still be taking photos, but in the end I didn't arrange it with the organization :)

Good for you, but something is wrong if your editor won't go to bat for you ... to me it says coverage of the show isn't important to him.

[Nouks]

Good for you, but something is wrong if your editor won't go to bat for you ... to me it says coverage of the show isn't important to him.

I think I don't get what you mean. The editor just can't do anything, nor can the promotor. It's all up to the organization.

But hey, now we can cover the festival with*out* the organization ;)