Rattlesnakes (880k)

[jukas]

Here's a couple of images I finally got around to processing. Both of these were taken late in the day in Kofa National Wildlife Refuge.

Arizona had a spectacular year as far as rainfall goes and most people were out photogrpahing the desert blooms. Myself being the nut I am spent a bit over a week in the field tracking down and studying various herps.

This old Mojave (Crotalus Scutulatus) was barely over three feet long but was probably at least eight years old. Unfortunately I didn't have my 550ex with me so I had to take this sans fill flash and since we were in a wildlife refuge I couldn't touch or move him to a better location.

http://nix.fallenchaos.com/~jchieppa/images/scute.jpg

Less than a quarter mile past the mojave we find this Sidewinder (Crotalus Cerastes Laterorepens) absorbing the late afternoon radient heat off the graded road.

http://nix.fallenchaos.com/~jchieppa/images/cerastes.jpg

[Blue Deuce]

I got them suckers slithering around my place in Montana. I shoot them all the time.............just not with my camera.

[jukas]

I got them suckers slithering around my place in Montana. I shoot them all the time.............just not with my camera.


And God bless you :rolleyes:. Just don't read this (http://fwp.state.mt.us/mtoutdoors/HTML/Articles/2004/rattlesnake.htm), ignore Rattlesnakes play an important role in the balance of nature. Each year they consume millions of rodents, which can be-come agricultural pests and spread disease such as hantavirus. Unless a rattlesnake has invaded your backyard and poses an immediate threat to you, your family, or your pets, don’t kill it. Enjoy watching this fascinating snake from a distance and let it be.

And enjoy your hantavirus! ;)

[robertwgross]

Excellent. I like the one of the mojave green.

---Bob Gross---

[Blue Deuce]

Thanks for the interesting article. I do have a "neighbor" who was bit as well as their dog but both never suffered any life threatning injuries.

I dont have anything against them per se but as I transverse my property to go down to the Yellowstone to fish I do in fact come across then coiled up against rocks all mad at me for disturbing them. It makes my wife feel more combfortable thinking we are getting rid of them. This is one of the few instances I just say yes dear.

BTW, I like your pictures.

[cfcRebel]

I got them suckers slithering around my place in Montana. I shoot them all the time.............just not with my camera.
So when you, or someone you are with, don't like something, you just shoot them? Geeezzzz.......

[pcasciola]

I really like the first one.

The only way I'm getting that shot is if I can convince my wife to take it with my 10-22mm.

[DocFrankenstein]

So when you, or someone you are with, don't like something, you just shoot them? Geeezzzz.......
Yeah, I'm sure he starts shooting the minute he doesn't like something. :rolleyes:

So, when you hear a word "gun" or "shoot" the brain shuts off and there's a reserved knee jerk reaction? Geeezzzz.......

Earth's fragile ecosystems are harmed by profit driven corporations, not guys like him. And in case you haven't been bitten by a snake, it's not a pleasant experience even though you survive.

[DocFrankenstein]

I really like the first one.

The only way I'm getting that shot is if I can convince my wife to take it with my 10-22mm.
Don't forget a filter... you can damage the front element like that... :confused:

[cfcRebel]

Earth's fragile ecosystems are harmed by profit driven corporations, not guys like him.
Oh, that means it's ok for me to carry a gun legally and shoot any animal that i don't like, since i don't represent any corporations? Oh wow, really learn something new everyday!

I shouldn' hijack anybody's thread. Sorry jukas, sorry mods.

[ssim]

Excellent shots Jukas. I can hardly wait to get back out west and chase these guys again. I got a reasonable shot last year but it was late in the day and the light wasn't great. Your shots are top notch of these guys.

Where I grew up we had lots and they are now a protected species in that area.

[LazyPhotographer]

Very cool! I'm still waiting to see one - from the car, of course!

[witchy]

I would just faint!

[jscotti]

We were out hiking in the Tucson Mountains a month or so ago and ran across this rattler eating lunch. You can see the legs of the mouse he's munching on sticking partly out of his mouth. The snake was totally vulnerable, but when he started rattling that tail as I made a sudden move to leave the area, I sure moved a lot faster!

Jim.

[Raj]

They always make me shiver :-(
naa, i am not shooting them.

Good pics by the way :-)

[sixshot]

I couldn't get that close to shoot snakes. I'll leave that to you - your pics are great so no need for me to try!

[Rob612]

So when you, or someone you are with, don't like something, you just shoot them? Geeezzzz.......

Well, maybe its just a matter of knowing what you have in front. Personally, If I hit in a rattlesnake and its too close, not being an erpetologist or any sort of connoisseur, I'll take the prudent side. If possible, back off. If not, shoot the animal dead.

When I go for wildlife (photo) shooting in not well know areas, and having a permit, I always have a gun at hand, loaded and ready to rock. We have a problem with wandering dogs here, not of snakes. So I'll take on the safer side anyway. Better a judgement and eventually a fine for shooting an animal than sorry for being in an hospital :)

Different if you go in search of such animals to kill them, of course. I am a hunter, but I shoot only things that I eat. If you can't eat it, take a picture. So I am actually restrained on wild pigs, that's the only edible thing we have around here.
But OTOH I love wild pig :D

Killing for fun is the most stupid thing that one can do.

And again, I always self limit to one or two hunting walks per year.

[kenyc]

I got them suckers slithering around my place in Montana. I shoot them all the time.............just not with my camera.

:) I "ran" into one hiking at lunchtime last fall right in the middle of the trail I hike on. He was quite intent on staying there as well. Didn't have a camera with me though...

Nice Pics!

KAC

[kenyc]

Yeah, I'm sure he starts shooting the minute he doesn't like something. :rolleyes:

So, when you hear a word "gun" or "shoot" the brain shuts off and there's a reserved knee jerk reaction? Geeezzzz.......

Earth's fragile ecosystems are harmed by profit driven corporations, not guys like him. And in case you haven't been bitten by a snake, it's not a pleasant experience even though you survive.

++++1++++

KAC
NRA member, Glock owner, Gun Rights Advocate, 2nd Amemdment supporter! When hiking and taking pics in the wilderness, it's a very good idea to carry a Glock 10mm to shoot in addition to your camera. :)

[zach]

Man, theres a lot of buttons in them pics!! Great shots.

On the other subject, I do believe that they make snake loads for most handgun calibers. As for myself, I guess it would depend on the area where I found the snake. Around my house and they would be hat bandanas in a second, out in the wild and I'd let'm be. My .02

[jukas]

Thanks for the interesting article. I do have a "neighbor" who was bit as well as their dog but both never suffered any life threatning injuries.

I dont have anything against them per se but as I transverse my property to go down to the Yellowstone to fish I do in fact come across then coiled up against rocks all mad at me for disturbing them. It makes my wife feel more combfortable thinking we are getting rid of them. This is one of the few instances I just say yes dear.

BTW, I like your pictures.

Honestly if you encounter one in the wild and you are lucky enough that it "lit up" on you, you are far safer just moving around it than trying to move or kill it.

Statistically the majority of rattlesnake bites are to males in the 18 - 35 range, often intoxicated and bitten on the extremites (hands and fingers) because they tried to pickup or move the snake. Very few snake bite cases are "legitimate" bites where the victim wasn't trying to interact with the snake and usually didn't look where they stepped or put their hands.

Did you know that a decapitated rattlesnake is still capable of not only biting but injecting a full load of venom? Should you be bitten it's highly unlikely you'll die, but it will be very painfull and expensive.

I personally believe we should try and co-exist with the snakes, which means making your property less appealing to them. Keep your grass trimmed, don't leave wood unstacked, don't leave out grain or other foodstuffs that will attract rodents, etc. If you encounter a snake on your property and it's not an immediate threat leave it be and let it wander off on it's own. If it becomes a problem or is causing a danger by all means kill it.

When we're out in the wild and come across them we're in their habitat and I feel it's us not them that should make the adjustments, but this comes from almost a decade of photographing, studying and working with them and is just my $.02

[jukas]

Excellent shots Jukas. I can hardly wait to get back out west and chase these guys again. I got a reasonable shot last year but it was late in the day and the light wasn't great. Your shots are top notch of these guys.

Where I grew up we had lots and they are now a protected species in that area.

Thanks Sheldon! If you end up coming out west shoot me a PM if the timing works I'd love to meet up with you and show you some spots.

[jukas]

We were out hiking in the Tucson Mountains a month or so ago and ran across this rattler eating lunch. You can see the legs of the mouse he's munching on sticking partly out of his mouth. The snake was totally vulnerable, but when he started rattling that tail as I made a sudden move to leave the area, I sure moved a lot faster!

Jim.

Nice shot Jim. That's a pretty typical looking blacktail (Crotalus Molossus) from the mid to slightly south Tucson area. I was down near the border just north of Nogales about a week ago and stumbled across a a 4' adult Molossus that was butter yellow with thick dark strips. I was so flabbergasted to see such a pretty specimen in that area that I completely forgot about my camera until I had already released him and it was too late! :)

[Rob612]

++++1++++

KAC
NRA member, Glock owner, Gun Rights Advocate, 2nd Amemdment supporter! When hiking and taking pics in the wilderness, it's a very good idea to carry a Glock 10mm to shoot in addition to your camera. :)

NRA (International) here also. Glock, Colt, Ruger, you name it :)

[Rob612]

When we're out in the wild and come across them we're in their habitat and I feel it's us not them that should make the adjustments, but this comes from almost a decade of photographing, studying and working with them and is just my $.02

As long as it does not became an immediate danger to myself or the persons I'm with, I fully agree with you. But if it does, I repeat myself: back off if possible, otherwise just kill the beast, whatever it is. same concept about using lethal force in self defence apply here. I know the animal has probably more rights to be where it is than myself, and I fully respect him and his place. But when it comes to my butt... :D

[jukas]

As long as it does not became an immediate danger to myself or the persons I'm with, I fully agree with you. But if it does, I repeat myself: back off if possible, otherwise just kill the beast, whatever it is. same concept about using lethal force in self defence apply here. I know the animal has probably more rights to be where it is than myself, and I fully respect him and his place. But when it comes to my butt... :D

Rob,

I've never once came across a situation in the wild where I had no choice but to kill the animal. However, that being said, everyone needs to work within their own comfort level and as long as people aren't setting out to kill them just because they're afraid of them I'm ok with that.

Cars and habitat destruction take a far greater toll than the average homeowner who kills one in their yard with a shovel. It's the people who choose to kill them just because they can and for fun that irk me.

[cfcRebel]

Cars and habitat destruction take a far greater toll than the average homeowner who kills one in their yard with a shovel. It's the people who choose to kill them just because they can and for fun that irk me.

I see your point. But for me, roadkills are accident. Not many people drive their car and purposely run over a snake or other animal. But carry a gun in the wild and shoot a snake just because he/she THINKS it is threatening, is just not acceptable. It is the intention that counts. But that's just my opinion.

[DocFrankenstein]

I've never once came across a situation in the wild where I had no choice but to kill the animal.
Snakes are territorial. A lot of them have a hole they live it.

So the snake you saw lying there in the afternoon, is the one your kid stepped on at dusk the next day.

[jukas]

Snakes are territorial. A lot of them have a hole they live it.

So the snake you saw lying there in the afternoon, is the one your kid stepped on at dusk the next day.

If by territorial you mean that they follow pheromone trails back to their winter dens sights you're correct. If you mean that they live day in and day out in the same hole that would be incorrect. If you look at any study where they radio tagged crotalus and tracked them you can easily see a mile or more of movement over a single day.

So that Mojave I saw lying there that afternoon could be half a mile or farther away by morning. Lets go with the hypothetical that I was out and got bit by a rattler, I still wouldn't *need* to kill it, in fact I'd risk getting bitten again if I tried.

Did you know that all Crotalide envenomation in the US is treated by the same AV? Regardless of what type of North American rattler you get bit by you'll be given either Wyeth or (hopefully) CroFab. Now if you can give even a semi coherent description of the snake and have a reasonably competent doctor (if you have any doubts ask them to Consult the Arizona Poison Control center) there is little necessity to have the snake there. Often they'll ask you to bring in the snake only if you can safely do so.

If I had to guesstimate I'd figure over a thousand hours in the field interacting with Crotalus, easily 10x that working with captive specimens and god knows how many hours just hiking about in their area. I still haven't had a single instance where I had no choice but to kill the snake.

Cfcrebel: Not all roadkills are accidental, many people will purposely run over any snake. There is a border patrol agent in the Nogales area that will intentionally run over any snake he sees out on the road. By far the greatest threat to them is habitat destruction, however roadkills take a major toll over the years and poaching for roundups doesn't help either.

I'm not so much of a purist that I can't understand someone who comes across one in their yard killing it because they don't know how to deal with it and want to keep their family safe (hint: there are tons of organizations that will come out and remove them for free or a small fee. Need one in N. Cali? send me a pm). It's the people who stumble across a wild rattler who then torture and kill it that bother me, and god hope they don't get bit while molesting the snake as it surely will be the snakes fault.

[Rob612]

Rob,

I've never once came across a situation in the wild where I had no choice but to kill the animal. However, that being said, everyone needs to work within their own comfort level and as long as people aren't setting out to kill them just because they're afraid of them I'm ok with that.

As I said in my first post on the argument, we do have a different problem here. Personally, being both an hunter and a (tentative) wildlife photographer, I have no problems in general with animals. Especially with snakes, that usually are not aggressive.

But we do have a problem with wild dogs (I actually mean home dogs abandoned, I do not know what is the correct term in English). And those ARE a problem. I understand their reasons for being angry with the world and often hungry. But this does not means that the have any reason for attack me :D So, a couple of times I had to place a 10mm round in the right spot. By the way, I did NOT liked it, either because I was really scared, and because as I already stated, I do not like to kill what I do not eat. But if he wants to eat me...

Again, it doesn't really matter if its a snake, a dog or whatever. If he let me alone, I'll leave him alone, as we all have the right to live in pece. If he becomes a threat for me... well... I am an extremely peaceful person. But do not threat me :D (my avatar says it all :D)

BTW, in this country shooting a wild animal is something that creates a lot of problems with the LEOs, you have to declare what you have done and why and there is a lot of paper involved, just because pistol hunting is prohibited, plain and simple. So if you are out taking pictures and you have to shoot a dog, that is potentially a felony, unless you go taking pictures with a shotgun, that definitely is not practical. Wait... maybe it can be used as a monopod... :D

[Rob612]

It's the people who stumble across a wild rattler who then torture and kill it that bother me, and god hope they don't get bit while molesting the snake as it surely will be the snakes fault.

Here I am completely with you.

[jscotti]

Well said by the last two posters. Live and let live is a pretty good philosophy.

I was driving my wife to work today when I spotted a snake partway onto the road in the other direction. I didn't get a good enough look to be able to tell if it had been injured, but it looked about the right size and color from the glimpse I got to be a rattler. I saw a car coming the other way hugging the white line and saw him move away from the line, so after dropping my wife off, I came back and found the snake only in the bike lane. Since I still hadn't gotten a good enough look at it, I assumed it might be a rattler, so I found a big stick and "walked softly" :D over to the snake. It turned out to be "only" a gopher snake and seemed to be uninjured, so I moved him off the road and then took some pix of him. He was playing dead, but moved just enough to let me know he was fine. Cars and wild animals just don't mix, so I was happy to have helped this creature survive a little longer at least....

Jim.

[cfcRebel]

I applaud your deed Jim.
I know, it is just ONE snake, but still why someone would pull out a gun and shoot it just because his/her child, says "Daddy, that snake scares me" ?
I know i won't. I will ask my kid to back off slowly and carefully, and leave the snake alone. Even if the snake attacks, that still doesn't warrant me to kill it.

[cfcRebel]

So that Mojave I saw lying there that afternoon could be half a mile or farther away by morning. Lets go with the hypothetical that I was out and got bit by a rattler, I still wouldn't *need* to kill it, in fact I'd risk getting bitten again if I tried.


Ditto.

[cjm]

I knew there was a up side to living in a place that has winter 7 months of the year. The rattle snakes we do have here are the size of Garter snakes and the only reason you might find one, is because it is lost.

Great pictures Jukas, I hope I never ever, ever get to take similar ones unless at a zoo. :|