SportsShooter - FSU Football Turmoil

[wdwpsu]

I suggest you visit www.scottkelby.com (http://www.scottkelby.com) for more information. But, essentially, they ran a contest for best amateur sports photographer. The winner was allowed to accompany a pro at a FSU game this season.
Well, the other pros through a fit. Declared it unsafe, encroaching on their business, space, etc. And went to the University, who in turn pulled the whole contest. The sad thing is that someone's dream was shot. It wasn't a dream to become a professional sports photographer. It was just a chance to stand along the big guys for one day. The very people that he admired turned against him, and with some reason.... This is putting food on their table.

Wonder everyone else's thoughts on this topic.

[liam5100]

I think its bull****, photographers can be a whiney, territorial bunch. Big deal having a contest winner down there. Especially when I see all kinds of "friends of friends" on the sidelines all the time.

[RickyH]

I "understand" the photographers don't want to let anyone taking clothes off their back, but seriously, this was a giant over reaction. The contest should of stayed open. I'll bet there are students at nearly every college event shooting, & aren't on the level of the professionals shooting but no one is screaming over it.

[Adama]

What a crock of crap. When I was shooting the Rogers Cup this year, there was one of those ridiculous "move of the game" contests that moved a "select few" fans down to VIP areas on the court. I.E In the photographer's shooting area. We had about 8-10 fans down right in the center of the photo pit. I didn't have any issues since I wasn't shooting from there, but a few photographers got really annoyed.

We have to deal with that, yet these guys can't deal with one amateur photographer near them? Ridiculous.

[DC Fan]

If you're interested in the glamour of the big time, you'll want to go to big time events. If you're interested in sports photography, you'll go someplace like this:

http://www.kevinlillard.com/racing/20090827a0670.jpg

A Division II football game, from a Thursday night season opener. Good action, but small crowd, no hassles, no need for a credential or a field pass. Just buy a ticket ($6 for this game, with $5 for a parking space so close to the field that you could see the car from the sidelines), wander down to the field as close as you can get, and take as many pictures as you want. You'll deal with the same sort of challenges that you'll face at a big time event - being in the right place at the right time, deciding whether you should be in front of the play or behind it, working to get around the players' benches for the best angle. And there won't be anyone to jostle for position because the sidelines are nearly empty.

Sometimes, it's best to concentrate on events where the only bragging rights are the opportunitities to get action pictures.

[polarbare]

To get a couple things cleared up. FSU pulled the credential for Mike not following the proper channels to use his assistant credential in contest (His words not mine). Did the emails from upset Sportshooter members affect the university looking into it? I'm sure it did. I was in contact with Mike a few times during the event and some of the emails he received were WAY over the line.

Some Sportsshooter members greatlyoverreacted. There are some photogs who consider the sidelines their office and forget that they are guests of the university, just like the VIPs, donors, guests, GWC that they complain about. Some of the ones complaining the most don't even usually shoot sports.

The reaction from Kelby's followers was also an over-reaction. Being a member of both groups (Sportsshooter member & NAPP member) I think that everyone needed to calm down and think before they start with the hateful posts and emails. Were some of the posts on Sportsshooter elitist. Yes, but especially in the 2nd (and 3rd and 4th) threads a number of people stepped up to remind everyone that FSU can do what they want with the credential, and that Mike is a working Pro who can be trusted to keep his assistant out of the way.

This whole thing has turned from a neat contest for an amateur into a huge Cluster Fark. I hope going forward everyone will try to be a little more reasonable.

~ Brad

[kauffman v36]

being an FSU student, this angers me so much. what i would give to shoot just ONE football game i cannot even imagine. these sports shooters are being territorial, like this guy is going to take away their paychecks in one game, cmon. and here i thought i had a chance at getting credentials for some of the low-key football games this season. NOOOT

[Dennis_Hammer]

Sounds like there were some very insecure photographers on that field, if they felt they needed to lose their minds over an unknown amateur being on the sidelines during a game. Guess no confidence in your own work will do that to you.

[narlus]

this comment on Mike's site really summed it up, and it pertains a much wider perspective than just shooting football:
"I’ve followed the forums in Sportsshooter.com in the past because the community there used to be open for learning and passing on tips, etc. I’ve stopped paying attention to it because it has broken down into constant complaining about “dads with cameras”, “freeloaders”, “amateurs” etc. taking advantage of access to sidelines. What it boils down to for me is that the professionals are realizing that the main reason they had a business was that they had access to the sidelines, were better equipped, and had the film lab support from their employers to rapidly move their images. To their credit, getting quality images was also dependent on years of experience in how to get the best image recorded on film. Now digital has arrived, eliminating the hurdle of film handling. Instant feedback has reduced the influence of the experience factor. The now-past economic boom has put pro-level equipment in the hands of many enthusiasts, equalizing the equipment factor. Since access is now the only thing separating the professionals from a talented amateur, they are really threatened! Add in the fact that entertainment (including sports) providers are realizing that the print media is becoming less necessary to promote their product, and you have quite the explosive situation."

[Adama]

Mike's comment is very true. The hostility and bitterness from a lot of the pro sports shooters, stemming from the fact that aspiring shooters no longer have to master film and go through years of training/experience, is unbelievable. So much that when I entered the industry of professional sports shooting I went into it with the mindset that I was not going to make any friends fast and I shouldn't be looking to many veterans for advice and help. I was pleased to find that I was wrong and there are still a lot of helpful, experienced shooters around, but I have encountered many people that are just plain rude because they're seeing people start to take their jobs without having to know jack about film.

In other words, these shooters refuse to take me or my work seriously because in their eyes I don't deserve to be shooting the sidelines of a professional sporting event since I haven't shot high school events for 5 years (Since that's what THEY had to go through), instead of considering the possibility that I've proved that I am capable of shooting the big events through my portfolio, dedication, and consistency.

[polarbare]

My experience in the field is about the same as Adama's. I've found some great people to help with critiques and offering advice, but shooting things like the NCAA championships I was clearly thought of as an outsider. Nothing I can do but be friendly to everyone and let whatever will be, be.

[DC Fan]

The factors that lead to those attitudes aren't understood because most users of this forum go out of their way to avoid those factors. However, professional deadline shooters have to face them every day. They include:

Deadlines. People on this forum often feel pressured if they need to submit a finished image within a few days of taking a picture. That kind of time is an unimaginable luxury for a deadline shooter who has, at the best, an hour or two to get an image to a photo desk. More likely, they have a few minutes to submit a picture, and there's now equipment that lets a shooter send an image directly from a camera to an editor. And it's safe to say that few people on this forum have ever had to rush to transmit an image and write a caption in the minutes between innings, something that's just part of the daily grind for working pros.

Need to perform. For a serious photographer, taking the pictures is the least and easiest part of the job. No one sees them arrive at an arena hours before an event to set up strobes and remotes. No one watches the lighting and equipment tests to arrange data lines and power supplies. Even with that advance work, they still need to produce an image that tells the story of the event. A image that's a perfect, stylistic work of art will be useless if it doesn't involve the subject of the best story to come from the event. Photo editors will demand an image from the star of the game; recall that publications use pictures to illustrate a reporter's story and not to enlighten readers with the best art possible.

Loss of jobs. Hundreds of photographers with exceptional experience and unquestioned track records are losing work as the newspaper and magazine business shrinks and freelance work is eliminated. The photographers are doing nothing wrong; the jobs are disappearing.

Loss of control of product. A secondary market where a photographer once had more control over images and had the chance to make extra money through third-party sales is vanishing. That's because of:

Restrictive credential policies. Sanctioning bodies, promoters and sports organizations are moving toward the assumption of total control of all images from events. Even major publications and wire services are having trouble with sports organizations that are trying to tell the publications what pictures they can run and when they can run them.

Difficult working conditions where television is king. All of those wonderful TV closeup pictures of home run hitters running the bases, winning teams celebrating and victory lane celebrations mean there are several people between the celebrants and the photographer who is trying to get a decent "Jube" shot for print.

Now with all of those factors, which generate pressure that nearly every user of this forum tries to avoid at all costs, the professional sports photographer faces the challenge of having to deal with another stranger on an already crowded sideline. If you know what these guys experience on a regular basis, you can understand their trepidation.

[Harleypugs]

I have shot on the sidelines of a big college game and I can tell you there are way too many people there...but as already said it isn't up to the photographers to decide. Even working togs are there as guests. It is up to the SID to determine. Several of the SS guys like to say, well what would happen if people just showed up at your office and took up space in your area. Well it is a totally different thing all together. First off a big sporting event is just that. An event. College's use sideline passes all the time to help their efforts in having the team. So it is just not the same thing.

I also wonder why the "dad's with camera's" only apply to professional togs. Every form of business has "dad's with camera's". Best Buy has to compete with IT people who repair and build computers on the side for free. Lawncare professionals has to deal with it to....as do auto mechanics, and home repairmen/painters. There are all kinds of people out there willing to do work on the cheap, yet you only hear about it on photo sites. I just don't get it.

Last thing, I spend a lot of time on SS.com. I love the site and it is a great resource. However a thread on there really caught my eye. It was a thread about making a "Hackintosh" which is basiclly stealing Apple's OS to make a Mac on the cheap. Hmmmm.....doesn't this sort of defeat their arguement about togs shooting on the cheap?

[mattograph]

I can see both sides of this, for sure. But I would love to meet the guy on sports shooter who bitches about this AND can say that he's never used any of the tools that Scott Kelby brings to the marketplace, often for free. The dude is a genuinely nice guy who gives away more for free than most people have to sell.

[dmwierz]

The factors that lead to those attitudes aren't understood because most users of this forum go out of their way to avoid those factors. However, professional deadline shooters have to face them every day. They include:

Deadlines. People on this forum often feel pressured if they need to submit a finished image within a few days of taking a picture. That kind of time is an unimaginable luxury for a deadline shooter who has, at the best, an hour or two to get an image to a photo desk. More likely, they have a few minutes to submit a picture, and there's now equipment that lets a shooter send an image directly from a camera to an editor. And it's safe to say that few people on this forum have ever had to rush to transmit an image and write a caption in the minutes between innings, something that's just part of the daily grind for working pros.

Need to perform. For a serious photographer, taking the pictures is the least and easiest part of the job. No one sees them arrive at an arena hours before an event to set up strobes and remotes. No one watches the lighting and equipment tests to arrange data lines and power supplies. Even with that advance work, they still need to produce an image that tells the story of the event. A image that's a perfect, stylistic work of art will be useless if it doesn't involve the subject of the best story to come from the event. Photo editors will demand an image from the star of the game; recall that publications use pictures to illustrate a reporter's story and not to enlighten readers with the best art possible.

Loss of jobs. Hundreds of photographers with exceptional experience and unquestioned track records are losing work as the newspaper and magazine business shrinks and freelance work is eliminated. The photographers are doing nothing wrong; the jobs are disappearing.

Loss of control of product. A secondary market where a photographer once had more control over images and had the chance to make extra money through third-party sales is vanishing. That's because of:

Restrictive credential policies. Sanctioning bodies, promoters and sports organizations are moving toward the assumption of total control of all images from events. Even major publications and wire services are having trouble with sports organizations that are trying to tell the publications what pictures they can run and when they can run them.

Difficult working conditions where television is king. All of those wonderful TV closeup pictures of home run hitters running the bases, winning teams celebrating and victory lane celebrations mean there are several people between the celebrants and the photographer who is trying to get a decent "Jube" shot for print.

Now with all of those factors, which generate pressure that nearly every user of this forum tries to avoid at all costs, the professional sports photographer faces the challenge of having to deal with another stranger on an already crowded sideline. If you know what these guys experience on a regular basis, you can understand their trepidation.

Hear hear!

[computerguru3190]

I think this whole situation just went down the drain extremely fast. I spend a lot of time on Sportsshooter and now a good amount of the members around me. I think the pros want to protect their territory but also they have seen first hand what can happen on the sidelines. People who spend years on the sidelines still get hit. I think the arguements were pointless and overblown. The winner wasn't going to be taking money from anyone or anything.

If anything Ollivella was using the person for images. If they shot anything useful, he had the rights to it. The hateful emails that came out of this were hilarious. Some people do need to find better things to do.

[mattograph]

When you see someone with over 6000 posts on a forum, you know they spend too much time talking about photography and not enough time DOING it.

Exhibit one is me. :(

[liam5100]

Hear hear!

I do and have dealt with all those things listed. I do make my living with my camara. However I dont see a "contest winner" with or without a camera making that big of a difference.

I think from a promotion standpoint a "contest winner" is no big deal, I think there are many more un-needed and in the way people on the sidelines that need to be dealt with before a single occasional publicity contest winner.

[D2Sports]

A Division II football game, from a Thursday night season opener. Good action, but small crowd, no hassles, no need for a credential or a field pass. Just buy a ticket ($6 for this game, with $5 for a parking space so close to the field that you could see the car from the sidelines), wander down to the field as close as you can get, and take as many pictures as you want.
Curious where you shoot D2 football without a sideline pass.

Because you won't get on the sidelines at the D2 schools I've shot at without credentials.

BTW, I like the picture. Was it blocked?

[clarence]

A Division II football game, from a Thursday night season opener. Good action, but small crowd, no hassles, no need for a credential or a field pass. Just buy a ticket ($6 for this game, with $5 for a parking space so close to the field that you could see the car from the sidelines), wander down to the field as close as you can get...

Curious where you shoot D2 football without a sideline pass.

Because you won't get on the sidelines at the D2 schools I've shot at without credentials.

I think he was just suggesting shooting from various spots in the stands, not the sidelines.

Very similar to MiLB, Div II is a lot more flexible in letting you roam, so you might be separated from the sideline by a half-height fence, but nothing that a little extra zoom can't overcome.

Here's a map of Div II schools (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cc/Cfdii.PNG).

[DC Fan]

Curious where you shoot D2 football without a sideline pass. Because you won't get on the sidelines at the D2 schools I've shot at without credentials.

Picture came from the University of Indianapolis' home opener against Kentucky Wesleyan.

http://www.kevinlillard.com/racing/20090827a0882.jpg

Another image from the same game. The area immediately behind the sidelines, at the six-foot restraining area, was open only to those who had field passes. But there was plenty of open space another ten feet back that had the same view, and the extra distance didn't mean much with a 300mm or 400mm lens.

Another example of access at small-time football:

http://www.kevinlillard.com/racing/20090905b0613.jpg

Butler University's home opener against Albion. Butler plays in the Division I Football Championship Subdivision, the old Division I-AA.
At the Butler Bowl, anyone can walk the sidelines as long as they stay behind a recessed concrete curb that's around 8-10 yards behind the sidelines and endlines.

This image was chosen to show distances and open space. On this touchdown, there was no one else at field level at the end zone. It's unlikely that would ever happen at one of the FSU games that prompted the contest controversy, but the open spaces and access are what make an event such as this so attractive to attend with a camera.

[D2Sports]

I didn't mean that to come off in a challenging way. Just that sideline access is so controlled by the SID at Valdosta State and also at most of the Gulf South schools I've shot at.

But it's great that they allow that kind of access.

BTW, I understand Univ of Indianapolis gave Grand Valley a good game this weekend. Wish ya'll coulda pulled off the upset.