I think amateurs sport shooters charge too much

[Fastfwd13]

I'm specifically talking about action sports international that were shooting all competitors at last weekend's Timberman triathlon.

They shot 4 pictures of me. None of them are any better than simple snapshots that could probably be done with a good P&S.

The asking price is 35$ for a single digital pic or 80$ for all.

I'm sure some people are going to pay that money but it seems to me that doing a proper evaluation on this would reveal that selling pics for 10$ instead would net them more money on the volume. I might be wrong.

Also had that problem in the past with a photoshoot done at a car racing school. Way overpriced to the point where they only sell a few prints.

[Jethro790]

What? I have gotten a bunch of shots from the local dragstrip guy that were no more than $5 per print. That is robbery.

[CosmoKid]

this thread is all a ploy to tell us you participated in a triathlon. show-off. ;)

[stathunter]

this thread is all a ploy to tell us you participated in a triathlon. show-off. ;)

:) --- me too... my triathlon consists of going from the bed to the fridge to my desk..... whooo whipped.


I have photographed marathons, triathlons for large companies -- for the most part we are taking thousands of shots - the company posts them and then does their email magic in hopes for prints - yep it is expensive but there are a lot of people in the process of pulling it off.

[tfizzle]

same thing here with white water rafting. It's $60 for all three rapids (only three 8x10's I think). There's no way I'd pay that much, but people do.

And they aren't all that great. Looks like they were taken on "auto" with no color correction or anything.

[Dennis_Hammer]

Don't buy them. See you didn't get ripped off. I wish I could walk into a Chevy dealer tell him he is charging too much for that corvette and pay what I want. Fact is its a market driven business, and they charge what they can. Its really easy for people who don't make a living (meaning full time this how I have a roof and food etc etc) to judge the prices others charge. Thats how we get IT guys doing a wedding on a Saturday for $300 or a stay at home mom doing portraits for $20. Now quit your job and feed your family without your guaranteed paycheck every week and your emplyer contributing mightily to your health insurance cost and lets not forget your sick days and vacation pay. You see everything is relative to your perspective. And you are wrong lots of times lowering your price in a situation where you are not guaranteed to sell even one picture will not be made up by volume. He/she sets their price, don't like it don't buy it real simple.

[kenwood33]

I believe companies such as asi pay big bucks to the event organizer to obtain exclusive photography right to an event. This is most likely why the price for a simple picture is so high.

[SnapLocally.com]

I can't imagine paying anything for the opportunity to shoot. I either get hired, or I shoot on my own (with clearance) and rely on any sales I may or may not make.

[Fastfwd13]

I can't imagine paying anything for the opportunity to shoot.

Well I did not buy the picture and this competition was 100% on public spaces/roads so anyone could take pictures from anywhere. ASI did have the advantage of being able to email all participants with matching competitor number.

I understand that feeding a family on a photographer's budget can be tough but you can't blame people that do it for less money because it's a hobby to them. This is all part of the market offer vs demand.

There will always be people willing to pay top $$$ for good photos but a lot more don't have the money of just can't see the difference and so will go with a lower price.

[Rubi Jane]

I shoot a variety of events and my 8x10s/8x12s are $19.99 plus taxes and a very nominal shipping charge within Canada. My hi-res downloads are the same price. If you can email participants links to their specific photos you typically gross $1 per participant. I also have options for all a participant's photos for $70, sometimes it's worth it, but if I'm the only one shooting and I'm at the finish line you'll only get 2 or 3 shots.

You have to find the happy medium of price versus volume. Lowering price doesn't always increase overall sales, though bulk pricing for all shots of a bib number makes for some nice revenue.

Fastfwd13 - request the organizer contract a Canadian company to shoot the tri next year. May as well keep our Canadian dollar in our own country rather than going to a US company (ASI). I know just the company to shoot that tri www.zoomphoto.com

[tfizzle]

If you have good images they will sale. Usually at the events I go to there's just a guy there who knows somebody and takes the pictures, has the gear, but sees it more as a job and doesn't put anything into it.

Also, the events I've been to around here "hire" their family to be shooters around the field/event but not all of them are photographers. They just have the equipment, and the person they know who gave them the gear.

Depends on your area but I'm truly disappointed in the offerings in our area. That's why I'm learning and slowly working into building a client base. There's one good place and they have outrageous prices. The others around are "hobbyist" and their idea of imaging comes from what they learned in the 80's (at least that's what the photos look like to me)

[Fastfwd13]

Maybe some day I'll bring a big sign with my website address on it and snap away at every competitor. I'll give away the pics at medium res and sell full resolution with post-processing if I can ever do it right :)

[tfizzle]

they won't pay for the full-res if they can get the med. for free.

[Fastfwd13]

they won't pay for the full-res if they can get the med. for free.

I would not be in it for the money. This is amateur sport. If I was in it for the money I would go for bulk. Charge 10$/pic and sell more than 3 times as much as the buy who charges 30$. As I have said I could be wrong and 30$ is the price point where you make the most money. I have no idea really beside me not wanting to pay that much for a generic photo.

[MJPhotos24]

Maybe some day I'll bring a big sign with my website address on it and snap away at every competitor. I'll give away the pics at medium res and sell full resolution with post-processing if I can ever do it right :)
Well, you have to remember that events like this if put on by an organization are not "free game" to do this. Many sign exclusive deals with companies to sell prints/files so others cannot just jump in and shoot. Just because the event is taking place in public doesn't always mean it's public. For example there was a thread awhile ago about a game being held at a public park and they wouldn't let a guy shoot there. He was upset of course but the fact was the organization had that reserved that area for their event and it was up to them. The public area had a private event you could say in a way. This may not be the same in Canada.

Price wise though that's a pretty normal price for a digital file ($25-40 range). Once you sell the digital file you are losing all print sales from it and depending on the rights given up maybe more. Simple fact is you have no control over it anymore and hard to track what happens. You definitely would not sell more $10 files over $30, in fact if that was the case you'd have to work 3x harder to make the same amount. That sounds exact opposite of what most businesses try to do by working smarter, not harder. In fact most cases I've seen it seems you sell more when charging more but still in a reasonable range, which the prices mentioned are. When I raised my prices my sales went up and to test it I lowered prices on some products this year and no new sales were had in those products. People are going to buy what they want to buy and sometimes price doesn't matter.

Now as for quality, who knows if it was as bad as you say (well besides you of course and others who've seen them). There are definitely cases out there where you look at a photo for sale and say what you did. Quality will sell though usually if given the chance.

[RDKirk]

I understand that feeding a family on a photographer's budget can be tough but you can't blame people that do it for less money because it's a hobby to them. This is all part of the market offer vs demand.

But you started the thread complaining that amateurs were charging too much.

[slider2828]

I mainly shoot events, I do about 10 a print for a 5x7, I think that is totally reasonable and you pay for what you get as all my images are PP before they are upped on my site. Yes a lot of BIG named events are exclusively shot by certain people or organizations, Peter Wolf patents, don't get me on that. But anyways, my point is if it looks like crap, don't buy it... If you guy it digitally, then just mess with the colors and your pictures will come out better than anythign....

A lot of event photography doesn't PP until its done, I personally don't like that... I want them to see the best picture I took of them, so it takes me a week to finish 1100 pictures of the event... but you know what I take pride in my work. Its art I think....

[Fastfwd13]

But you started the thread complaining that amateurs were charging too much.

yeah I kind of went on different ideas there :rolleyes:

[zagiace]

IMO if you "Really" knew how much it costs to do business and produce prints for clients you may be surprised. Not sure what the OP does for a living or the other posters but selling 4x6 prints at an event like this for $5 is not going to pay the bills in most business's.
Frankly surprised at how little value members of a photo forum put on photography in general.
$35 bucks may be a lot for a 4x6 print when you get them at a warehouse store for a dime, but he has to cover travel, editing, equipment, insurance, membership fees, privilege fees and much more.
I have heard of pros getting paid $25K for a days work and all they provided in the end was a .50 cent DVD.

[RDKirk]

yeah I kind of went on different ideas there :rolleyes:

Yes, you did. But if it takes some conversation to help you decide what you really think, that's okay.

[Fastfwd13]

Of course I had a discussion with a couple athletes that I was charging too much for photos while they were drinking their $5 lattes, eating their $2 Clif bars, drinking their $3 energy drinks and checking their $200 heart rate monitors

So when you photograph the Ferrari club you charge them 1000$/print?

I understand what you mean. It's not that most triathletes don't have the means it's just that the pic quality was average and I did not want it bad enough to pay 30$. I would probably have paid 10$ so I was wondering if I was part of the majority and if bulk was not a better option.

From the replies it seems that this was tried and that the 30$ price is just about right for people. Most can afford it and will if they really want the pic; not enough will pay 10$ to make up in bulk.

[MadisonPhotography]

check out the gallery...I'd love your opinion as to quality and price...

[mattograph]

There is a side to this that seems to be missing. The deal here isn't that the company gets to shoot the pictures THEY want -- they are supposed to get pictures of EVERYONE!!!

You're mad because they got four pics of you and are charging to much. Right now there is another guy mad because he travelled 8 hours by himself to be there, ran the race, and ASI got NO pictures of him. He would be more than willing to pay the $35 for that memory, but they blew it. So he complains. ASI wants to keep the contract, which means more shooters or gear, so costs go up.

Its really simple to shoot the winner of a race. Its very hard to shoot cousin charley with his head up and number showing when he finishes in a pack of 70 runners 20 minutes later. Oh, and get pictures of the other 69 runners too.

Food for thought.

[Lowner]

"The public area had a private event you could say in a way. This may not be the same in Canada".

I'm no lawyer, but I don't believe that would hold water in court here in the UK. Certainly some of the London Olympic venue builders are attempting to prevent photographers from getting images, but so long as the 'tog is shooting from a public place, legally they are bulletproof.

I believe the public need to be re-educated about photographic artwork. I took an A3+ autographed motorsports print that was matted and framed to a carboot sale this morning. It got a lot of interest but no one offered us as much as 1% of it's actual cost to produce, never mind a fair return.

OK, I was not surprised and expected no different, but it shows how low the public rate photography. Most people seem unable to see the difference between a good composition (well executed and printed) to their own mobile cameraphone "happysnaps".

[RDKirk]

You're mad because they got four pics of you and are charging to much. Right now there is another guy mad because he travelled 8 hours by himself to be there, ran the race, and ASI got NO pictures of him. He would be more than willing to pay the $35 for that memory, but they blew it. So he complains. ASI wants to keep the contract, which means more shooters or gear, so costs go up.

Its really simple to shoot the winner of a race. Its very hard to shoot cousin charley with his head up and number showing when he finishes in a pack of 70 runners 20 minutes later. Oh, and get pictures of the other 69 runners too.

This is true. Back in the 70s, I was doing freelancing in Hawaii. There was a guy--an entrepreneur--who didn't do any photography himself, but he was a master at getting the gigs--high school graduations, the Honolulu Marathon, even the very first ever Iron Man competition--and there were several of us shooters who worked the gigs he got set up.

Guaranteeing a full-frontal shot of every single person as he or she crossed the finish line of the Honolulu Marathon was what he planned for, and he did an excellent job of it. I was pretty content at the time just to be at the spot he'd gotten reserved for us and collect a decent day rate.

[RDKirk]

OK, I was not surprised and expected no different, but it shows how low the public rate photography. Most people seem unable to see the difference between a good composition (well executed and printed) to their own mobile cameraphone "happysnaps".

Part of that is the fault of photographers who eschew--and plain don't bother to learn--any techniques that set their work above the level of mobile cameraphone happysnaps (hey, do Brits use that term too?).

Technology certainly does that, as does the abundance of information through the printing press (that's been a long process) and the Internet (a much shorter process).

It happens in other crafts, which is why you don't find nearly as many "handymen" and "gardeners" around--they've had to "up their games" and become "home improvement contractors" and "landscapers."

[ssim]

I would not be in it for the money. This is amateur sport. If I was in it for the money I would go for bulk. Charge 10$/pic and sell more than 3 times as much as the buy who charges 30$. As I have said I could be wrong and 30$ is the price point where you make the most money. I have no idea really beside me not wanting to pay that much for a generic photo.
I bet that alot of these so called amateurs are ripping around on multi thousand dollar bicycles and other gear. Like many amateur photographers who will have some of the best gear that is available.

The amount that we may sell a particular photo for is not just picked out of the air. You attempt to find that threshold amount where you maximum revenue while not driving too much business away. Say you are selling your images for 10.00 each and the other guy is selling his for 30.00. You have to make 3 sales for every 1 he does. There is allot of other logic that goes into this other than just slapping a price on it and hope they will come. Some of these professional shooters are not going to do things below cost and costs they do have that the amateurs don't, insurance, salary and other administrative burden. Fixed costs that don't go away whether you sell for 30.00 or 10.00. I would be surprised if the people that you hold disdain for had not the proper calculations. If they weren't selling you would see the prices come down.

[Biffbradford]

check out the gallery...I'd love your opinion as to quality and price...

I understand your reason for pricing your digital downloads where you have them. However, I think you're missing out on digital sales because if the athlete wants the foto for his blog or facebook, he's not going to buy a print instead. You're really not loosing print sales, because that person is not interested in prints anyway. I guarantee you he won't pay $100 for a 1mp image for his blog, he'll just grab it with a screen print (watermark and all). If you're known to the community of athletes that you're shooting, and your digital prices are reasonable, they'll buy them because they like having you take their photos and they want you to keep coming to the events.

Me? My prices are too cheap, I know that, the athletes know that (they've told me), and next year they are going up!

Just my .02 and my experience from shooting cycling. ;)

[Dan-o]

I would not be in it for the money.

That right there is the big problem with event photography. There are too many people who are doing it for fun and setting the price structure that pros have to deal with. Now if the pictures suck I would complain to the event organizers if they do have a deal with this company. There are a lot of expenses that go into running a business legitimately that you must not understand.

check out the gallery...I'd love your opinion as to quality and price...

To be honest Nick they just are not very good. Most are very blurry and need to be tossed. I'm not sure how you decided on F32, iso 1000, AV 100 for your settings but these will not produce good isolated sport pictures. Back grounds are cluttered and all the pictures I saw were just the transition area. I'm sure the course had some good scenery and back grounds where some good shots could have been produced. I doubt you will ever sell a 1m digital down load for $100 but your prints seem to be priced correctly.

[Rubi Jane]

To be honest Nick they just are not very good. Most are very blurry and need to be tossed. I'm not sure how you decided on F32, iso 1000, AV 100 for your settings but these will not produce good isolated sport pictures. Back grounds are cluttered and all the pictures I saw were just the transition area. I'm sure the course had some good scenery and back grounds where some good shots could have been produced. I doubt you will ever sell a 1m digital down load for $100 but your prints seem to be priced correctly.
I have to agree. The images are busy, most blurred due to too slow shutter and there's little variety. Try a wide open aperture, f4 or larger, longer focal length and 1/1000. Find interesting locations on course where the background is cleaner and aim to shoot individual athletes, or at least isolate them with aperture/focal length contributing to background blur. As for pricing, my high-res downloads are priced the same as an 8x10. I know I won't sell prints to that customer so I price accordingly.

[MJPhotos24]

To be honest Nick they just are not very good. Most are very blurry and need to be tossed. I'm not sure how you decided on F32, iso 1000, AV 100 for your settings but these will not produce good isolated sport pictures. Back grounds are cluttered and all the pictures I saw were just the transition area. I'm sure the course had some good scenery and back grounds where some good shots could have been produced. I doubt you will ever sell a 1m digital down load for $100 but your prints seem to be priced correctly.
Agree 100% with Dan here - sorry, but would have tossed a lot of those and would feel I'm ripping the person off selling them blurred shots. Print pricing is about normal but the digital prices are just, wow. NEVER seen it that high and have checked peoples prices all over the country since I'm thinking of adding digital downloads as part of the cart this year.

[Jannie]

Then hire a buddy with a point and shoot, ask them to take photos of you, provide the camera, get them printed and then you pay them the same hourly wage you make at your work and all is fair.

[holland_patrick]

check out the gallery...I'd love your opinion as to quality and price...


I didn't check the price. but the pictures were not that good...

[blackshadow]

This thread has reinforced my opinion of amateur triathletes...

[Fastfwd13]

This thread has reinforced my opinion of amateur triathletes...

That we are so far from being self-centered that pictures are just not that important to us? :p

[cdifoto]

I would not be in it for the money.
You would after the first event.

In theory it's fun. In reality it's work.

[Fastfwd13]

You would after the first event.

In theory it's fun. In reality it's work.

I understand. Taking a few pics is fun. Having to take everyone's pic and also match pics to participant# must get old really fast.

[jacuff]

check out the gallery...I'd love your opinion as to quality and price...

For personal use, I wonder how many people would buy the original for $300 when SmugMug warns them that the image is too small for the $150 4mpix purchase.

Commercial use... you better watch out there. What if I buy a random one for commercial use at $1000. I would then have a license to use it commercially, but do you have the release to license it commercially? The person in the photo could find out and then would sue me for using their photo, which in turn would be a counter-suit towards you. Ultimately, it's gonna cost you. If you've got releases, it's all good. If not, your taking on some serious liability.

[Gatorboy]

I'm sure some people are going to pay that money but it seems to me that doing a proper evaluation on this would reveal that selling pics for 10$ instead would net them more money on the volume. I might be wrong.

Yep, you're wrong.

[ZXDrew]

Yep, you're wrong.

Agreed. The only people you make money on are the first timers, kids under 20, and old guys. The regular triathlete doesn't buy pictures. I've tried every possible price point and found it didn't make a difference. Now I just set a price with a reasonable profit then send out a coupon for 30-50% about 4 weeks after I first notify people their photos are ready. It brings in people who normally couldn't or didn't want to pay the price I ask.

[RDKirk]

Well I did not buy the picture and this competition was 100% on public spaces/roads so anyone could take pictures from anywhere. ASI did have the advantage of being able to email all participants with matching competitor number.

I understand that feeding a family on a photographer's budget can be tough but you can't blame people that do it for less money because it's a hobby to them. This is all part of the market offer vs demand.

There will always be people willing to pay top $$$ for good photos but a lot more don't have the money of just can't see the difference and so will go with a lower price.

Well, if you have a spread of offerings, you can choose to buy what you want. What is your problem? As has been mentioned, do you rant at the Lexus dealer about his high prices and tell him you'd rather buy a Hyundai?

[Floriantrojer.com]

I would go for bulk. Charge 10$/pic and sell more than 3 times as much as the buy who charges 30$.

See, that's a huge mistake in your thinking. DO THE MATHS.

I'd much rather sell 100 (ballpark figure) prints at $30 each than 300 prints at $10 each!!!

You get the same amount of money for both, but the latter gives you 3 times as much work. :mad:

[RDKirk]

See, that's a huge mistake in your thinking. DO THE MATHS.

I'd much rather sell 100 (ballpark figure) prints at $30 each than 300 prints at $10 each!!!

You get the same amount of money for both, but the latter gives you 3 times as much work. :mad:

The thinking problem in both directions lies in the product itself. You can't sell a commodity product at a custom price.

A tailor who hand-makes suits to standard sizes and sells them off a rack in the front of his shop can't compete with Sears, regardless of the fact that his prices honestly represent the costs of his process.

The only way the tailor can survive is to sell what Sears does not: Totally custom-made suits...at a correspondingly high price.

[ZXDrew]

The thinking problem in both directions lies in the product itself. You can't sell a commodity product at a custom price.

A tailor who hand-makes suits to standard sizes and sells them off a rack in the front of his shop can't compete with Sears, regardless of the fact that his prices honestly represent the costs of his process.

The only way the tailor can survive is to sell what Sears does not: Totally custom-made suits...at a correspondingly high price.


Your assuming this is the real world with competition and a wide range of products. The photog is only competing against himself. If he decides to sell $30 photos then the market is set at $30. There are no alternatives. Runners can't go out to another photog to get "cheaper" prints becuase there are none. They could get a friend with a point and shot to take a pictures, but it won't work. PS aren't designed to capture that kind of movement. Competition would happen the next year when the race director is looking for another photog. Someone else could come in and offer more incentive to the RD such as photos of thier setup/tear down, a free group shot, whatever to get the job.

Also take a look through Brightroom's events. The photos are the same, why becuase the same people who shoot small race all work for them.

Every race I shoot I get about 5-10 shots I'm really like "wow". The rest are decent and capture the person in the struggle of their race.

[RDKirk]

Your assuming this is the real world with competition and a wide range of products. The photog is only competing against himself. If he decides to sell $30 photos then the market is set at $30. There are no alternatives. Runners can't go out to another photog to get "cheaper" prints becuase there are none.

Sure there is an alternative. The OP stated the alternative he actually took:

Well I did not buy the picture

That happens when the photo is not special enough to make it a "must have" item and is not priced at the commodity level.

[ZXDrew]

[QUOTE=RDKirk;10714365]Sure there is an alternative. The OP stated the alternative he actually took:QUOTE]

He said he didn't buy the picture? Is that the alternative?

All he is said is what he "might" or "should" do. I've tried the sell cheap and the sell expensive approach. I prefer to sell ~$9.00-12.00 for a 4x6 depending on what I am shooting. A triathalon cost more to shoot and there is more wear and tear and my gear compared to a 5k. I'll end up with 5-15 photos of each person at a tri and 2-4 pictures at a 5k. Once you do the math on printing/shipping cost, travel cost, time, equipment wear and tear, and a small profit; the bluk business idea doesn't work unless you're shooting races with over 1,000 people.

How many people in here actually shoot at least 1+ race a month, and actually sell thier work?