Stupid thoughts on the current state of triggering

[Todd Lambert]

Hey all... first off, I am not a big user of Flash in my photography. I do landscapes and long exposures mostly. However I am getting a bit more into Flash, and so I've started to explore wireless options.

In doing so, I've become lamented about the current possibilities and their prices as I'm sure some others have - so first a little rant:

It just seems really odd to me, that the best thing going is PocketWizards or RadioPoppers, or CyberSync... all of which seem overly large, cumbersome and expensive for something as seemingly trivial as triggering.

Am I wrong in thinking so? I mean we're able to put wi-fi chips in something as small an SD card, yet we have to have these large doo-dads in place on the sides of our flashes, just to be able to do wireless triggering - and for several hundred dollars expense, in most cases?

Are the companies that created these, really small startups or one-man shows who invented these things in their garage? I mean, if that's the case I can understand to some extent but then why hasn't a larger company entered this space and made a better product for cheaper?

Maybe I am way off base here or just don't know squat about this stuff (a very real possibility) - but it just seems like we're all making due with these products until something way better comes along.

Now, as someone who is looking to invest in a set of these, which way is best to go? I know the new RadioPoppers look to be pretty good... and cheaper. If I don't have anything other than Flashes and an STE-2, what is the best route to go?


[edited to add] I know there's cheaper routes to go with optical triggers, cheap e-bay triggers, etc.. but I want something that is consistent, works well and is radio based if possible. I just don't see how these wishes can make the price what it is to get this functionality - this stuff doesn't seem to be rocket science or cutting edge technology!

[DerekW]

Smallest I've seen:
http://www.microsyncdigital.com/firestrobe.cfm

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/374395-REG/MicroSync_VMTRM_Digital_4_Channel_Radio.html

[TMR Design]

Hi Todd,

You may not like the form factor or the price but the original Pocket Wizards were and still are the industry standard. That is mostly due to the fact that they are incredibly reliable and seamlessly integrate with Sekonic light meters, which have also become something of an industry standard.

I'm not an engineer so I can't address the issues of size or design but almost every real world shooting pro is still choosing Pocket Wizards (Plus, Plus II, Multi Max) and they rely on them every day for reliable triggering.

I'm not saying that some of the alternatives are not good, because they are, but they're not really taking much of the market share away from Pocket Wizard. Pocket Wizard never used to have a 2 tier product line but now they do. Pro's are still choosing the larger, bulkier Pocket Wizards and no one is really complaining. Some pros and ETTL/iTTL Speedlight shooters are using the new Pocket Wizards but not the majority.

Keep in mind that shrinking the hardware means shrinking or minimizing the user interface. The new Pocket Wizards are not only using cheaper switches which many people have commented on but they've removed some basic hardware switching from the interface and put it into software that must be controlled from a computer.

In the case of Skyports, they work great but the build and user interface has much to be desired. Basic controls are now using tiny DIP switch style slide switches that are not 100% reliable and have glitches.

If you look at the number of radio transmitter and receiver systems sold to photographers and compare them to the number of people that are buying wireless cards and wi-fi devices I would bet that the statistics show the number to be very small.

LPA/Pocket Wizard are probably the biggest of those companies making radio triggering devices and by most people's standards they are still a tiny company with a lot of overhead. I'm sure that if someone wanted to step up to the plate and put up the cash to the R&D, engineers and production costs they could make a reliable Pocket Wizard the size of a CF card but I don't see anyone doing that.

I'm not saying these products couldn't be improved but the reality is we're not dealing with Microsoft. In time we'll see improvements but if it were practical to do as you're asking it would probably be happening. The fact that it's not doesn't mean the technology isn't there. It just means that at this time it's too expensive to produce at an affordable price for the consumer.

That's my take. I could be way off base as well.

[Todd Lambert]

Thanks Rob, interesting... and what I feared... hehe

I guess I'm just afraid to spend a bunch of money and get invested in PWs only to find that something better comes along. (although that's the case with anything, I guess)

I don't have any strobes or studio lights... just speedlights. I had planned on getting PWs but with the issues I've heard with 580s, and now the new RadioPoppers that seem to have one-upped PWs in capabilities, I'm leaning towards those although I think I'm going to wait for little while to see how they shake out.

Anyways, thanks for your thoughts... I respect your work and know that your thoughts are not off base and in fact probably spot-on.

Thanks!

[Tawcan]

Am I wrong in thinking so? I mean we're able to put wi-fi chips in something as small an SD card, yet we have to have these large doo-dads in place on the sides of our flashes, just to be able to do wireless triggering - and for several hundred dollars expense, in most cases?

The wifi cards in your computer may be the size of an SD card but the antenna takes a bit of space as well. Not to mention it takes power directly from the laptop so size of the card isn't restrained by the size of the battery. Look at those WWAN USB sticks from major cellphone carriers, sure they're small but again they do not have a battery in them.

When it comes down to size, manufacturers are having a tough time shrinking down the size of the device and still keep the same RF performance. Chips are getting smaller, signals are running at a faster frequency, this only means more cross-talks/interference between the signals and potentially more issues if you keep shrinking down the device.

From the last picture from this site:
http://www.supergimp.com/?p=213
The actual chip itself isn't all that big, but the knob, the PC connector, the LED, and the test button all take up quite a bit of real estate on the PCB.

[TMR Design]

Thanks Rob, interesting... and what I feared... hehe

I guess I'm just afraid to spend a bunch of money and get invested in PWs only to find that something better comes along. (although that's the case with anything, I guess)

I don't have any strobes or studio lights... just speedlights. I had planned on getting PWs but with the issues I've heard with 580s, and now the new RadioPoppers that seem to have one-upped PWs in capabilities, I'm leaning towards those although I think I'm going to wait for little while to see how they shake out.

Anyways, thanks for your thoughts... I respect your work and know that your thoughts are not off base and in fact probably spot-on.

Thanks!

'Better' is relative and subjective. For those that don't need the features and performance of Pocket Wizards the Cybersyncs are better. For people that aren't bothered by the build or occasional glitching of the switches in Skyports, they are better.

I've never been bothered by the size of the original Pocket Wizards and mine have been 100% reliable since the day I bought them a few years ago. They work flawlessly in the studio and have performed without a problem on location.

It all depends on what you're really looking for in a trigger. I'm looking for reliable triggering, period. I don't really care about all the other things it may be able to do when triggering is really what I need. In the case of Skyports, I like them and use them to adjust power levels but I still use my trusty Pocket Wizards for triggering and metering and know they won't let me down.

[pcunite]

Todd,
Yes it is annoying and frankly quite hokey that something as fundamental as cordless triggering can not be standardized and agreed upon by all vendors. But you know how things work - :) - Pocket Wizard has deals with Profoto & Norman, Skyports are integrated in a brand of lights, now CyberSync are integrating a system into their lights... seems this is only going to get more fragmented thus ruining any chance for small built in solutions.

If your addicted to the thought of remotely controlling your lights get ready to embrace one brand only! If you can make due walking up to the light and adjusting power at least you can choose your brand of RF triggers and have them work on almost all light systems out there.
　
The fact that one guy and some friends in AZ can make a pretty complicated new RF trigger pretty much tells you that the companies leading and innovating in the photo industry are not going to do anything unless made to. They are not into kewl things or better ways of doing things. Think really old and stinky... breath deep... that is the current leadership...

[Curtis N]

Count your blessings.
Neither Skyports nor Cybersyncs were available until a few years ago.
The size of the units is mostly because of batteries and antennae.
Deveopment of new technology by competing companies is hampered by the need for regulatory approval. When you generate RF signals, you have to deal with the government.

[Todd Lambert]

Ah, Curtis, that is something I hadn't thought about... you're right, FCC has to approve, etc..

pcunite, so true... frustrating that we can't get one standard (but then that is the case with most everything nowadays)

I like the thought of being able to adjust light levels from the camera without having to touch each flash every time. I think that, and the price is what has got me looking at the new RadioPoppers.

I guess I'm just nervous to go an spend several hundred dollars, when I'm not quite sure what I need/want.

I do know that I want ETTL, and I know that I'd like to be able to adjust power levels from the camera. I'd also like something that will work with other products down the road.. for now, I'll be triggering a couple of 580EX IIs and a 430EX II - while using a 5D2.

I'm not opposed to manual flash only, however I'd like to stick to ETTL for now, until I get a better grasp on things. If I decide to add an AlienBee or two down the road, I want this setup to still work.

[Jon Foster]

Todd, buy a set of the cheap CTR-301P's. Give them a try and see what you think. They only offer manual settings but at the price they really are disposable. If you like them, use them until you are comfortable spending serious money on PW's. If you don't like them, sell them for what you paid and chalk it up to some experience for the future...

Jon.

[DennisW1]

Todd,
Yes it is annoying and frankly quite hokey that something as fundamental as cordless triggering can not be standardized and agreed upon by all vendors. But you know how things work - :) - Pocket Wizard has deals with Profoto & Norman, Skyports are integrated in a brand of lights, now CyberSync are integrating a system into their lights... seems this is only going to get more fragmented thus ruining any chance for small built in solutions.

If your addicted to the thought of remotely controlling your lights get ready to embrace one brand only! If you can make due walking up to the light and adjusting power at least you can choose your brand of RF triggers and have them work on almost all light systems out there.
　
The fact that one guy and some friends in AZ can make a pretty complicated new RF trigger pretty much tells you that the companies leading and innovating in the photo industry are not going to do anything unless made to. They are not into kewl things or better ways of doing things. Think really old and stinky... breath deep... that is the current leadership...


How narrow minded and frankly rather insulting to the manufacturers.

One thing that hasn't been realized when discussing size of the units:
You're dealing with a stand-alone radio transmitter/receiver combo. They take batteries to operate reliably and a certain amount of circuitry to generate the RF power required to trigger their receivers consistiently.

Making comments like "Think old and stinky" and bashing the current manufacturers is just not accurate. If you're LPA and have developed a reliable system that has become basically an industry standard, why throw it away just because its not "kewl" and new?

BTW, LPA has developed a new system for the ETTL flash users but they would be cutting their own throats business-wise to abandon their current Pocket Wizard line.

Everything isn't a conspiracy, honest.

[pcunite]

How narrow minded and frankly rather insulting to the manufacturers.
...Skip...
Everything isn't a conspiracy, honest.

We all have our own opinion don't we? :)

[DocFrankenstein]

If you're shooting with an off camera strobe you at the very least have:
Your DSLR and lenses
A stand
A strobe

This means you didn't get there by accident - you're on a shoot. Why miniaturize something which doesn't need to be small - the buttons on those things are small enough already.

Plus - there needs to be an antenna, which has to be of certain size and also two AA batteries. I assume they're for reliability and longer range.

[pcunite]

Why miniaturize something which doesn't need to be small - the buttons on those things are small enough already.

They don't need to be made smaller, just built-in. Imagine a Canon 5D MK III with built-in RF transmitter and a 580EX III with a built-in RF receiver? I am sure you see the value in that...

[DocFrankenstein]

They don't need to be made smaller, just built-in. Imagine a Canon 5D MK III with built-in RF transmitter and a 580EX III with a built-in RF receiver? I am sure you see the value in that...
I guess that's not profitable enough for canon.

[FlashZebra]

If this is not "rocket science or cutting edge technology" then it would seem that these "really small startups or one-man shows" would have about the same ability to produce these devices as a large company.

In other words, if this technology is so pedestrian and common, just about any interested party could cook one of these up in their kitchen.

Enjoy! Lon

[tetrode]

Does no one remember the INTERNAL, full function Pocket Wizard that was available for the Nikon D1 series of cameras?

These articles (with photos) will enlighten you:

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-4858-4863

http://photo.box.sk/news.php3?id=6887

Obviously, the technology CAN be packaged much more compactly.

Dave F.

[FlashZebra]

Does no one remember the INTERNAL, full function Pocket Wizard that was available for the Nikon D1 series of cameras?

This article (with photo) will enlighten you:

http://photo.box.sk/news.php3?id=6887

Obviously, the technology CAN be packaged much more compactly.

Dave F.
The current Pocket Wizard module for the Sekonic meters is also compact.

But, this module is surfing off the wake already created by the battery already in the Sekonic meter (as was the Pocket Wizard module in the D1 camera).

And, the range of the Sekonic meter equipped with the PW module is paltry compared to a standard issue Pocket Wizard.

Enjoy! Lon

[tetrode]

The current Pocket Wizard module for the Sekonic meters is also compact.

But, this module is surfing off the wake already created by the battery already in the Sekonic meter (as was the Pocket Wizard module in the D1 camera).

And, the range of the Sekonic meter equipped with the PW module is paltry compared to a standard issue Pocket Wizard.

Enjoy! Lon

The D1 radio module was supposed to offer a range of 1000', Lon. The Sekonic meters don't have external antennas; the D1 mod did.

Dave F.

[RDKirk]

I suspect the primary reasons you don't see radio control commonly built into cameras and their dedicated flash units is the myriad of international laws governing radio emissions. It would force Canon or Nikon to build and ship region-specific devices, which would be an initial design headache and a permanent logistics headache. When you do see them for cameras, they tend to be quite expensive.

It's enough of a problem with PW--for instance, you have to be careful to purchase the Sekonic meter (not just the transmitter module) for the region you live/work in.

The separate devices can be made smaller--someone has already mentioned the MicroSync. But the MicroSync lacks the sophistication of the larger units and isn't any cheaper. It's only selling point is its small size, but it also has size-induced disadvantages, such as needing a paper-clip to make adjustments and using a less-standard battery.

[FlashZebra]

The D1 radio module was supposed to offer a range of 1000', Lon. The Sekonic meters don't have external antennas; the D1 mod did.

Dave F.
Yes, I know the range on the modified D1 and the external antenna.

That is why I explicitly stated the "range of the Sekonic meter equipped with the PW module is paltry compared to a standard issue Pocket Wizard."

Nothing in my post assigns this short range attribute to the modified D1.

Both the Sekonic module and the Pocket Wizard circuit placed inside the D1 can be small in volume largely because they do not need a separate battery to power them.

Enjoy! Lon

[k_strecker]

Ah the irony.

Pocket Wizard Shrinks the size of the MiniTT1 . . . and people moan about the battery not being AA

:)

Even though my batter has lasted over 5,000 triggers and still shows over 50 percent full . . . and the CR2450 is available at Walgreens . . . people moan about it.

Even though it's fully backwards compatible, and the size alone is a reason to upgrade to it as a transmitter for most people . . .

people moan.

[TMR Design]

Ah the irony.

Pocket Wizard Shrinks the size of the MiniTT1 . . . and people moan about the battery not being AA

:)

Even though my batter has lasted over 5,000 triggers and still shows over 50 percent full . . . and the CR2450 is available at Walgreens . . . people moan about it.

You should know by now that some people are just looking for something to moan about and if they can't find it, it upsets them even more. :D

[k_strecker]

You should know by now that some people are just looking for something to moan about and if they can't find it, it upsets them even more. :D

Exactly! Hence the Irony. Sweet, sweet, irony :cool:

[Joergeske]

I think the OP is spot on in his assessment. First off yes the cost to produce the components that makeup a PW are probably around 10 dollars at most, the issue is in the development and manufacturing cost of a product with such small scale distribution. However, it bothers me to know end that canon and nikon have not stepped in and just created their own solution. Ideally I would love to see a blue tooth setup where the camera has a built in 50' blue tooth radio transmitter and canon could release a flash with a built in bluetooth receiver. Bluetooth is not region specific and is fairly cheap to implement, range is a bit limited, but for when a photographer really needs more than 50-100 feet they can just go with the larger pocket wizards.

The other thing that bothers me is how expensive radio poppers are, they are genius in theory because all they do is convert the IR signal transmitted by the flash and convert it to RF. Its a simple concept used everyday for things like universal remotes for tvs. For example you can buy simple ir to rf convertors for like 10 bucks the issue is they are all AC powered.

[tetrode]

Yes, I know the range on the modified D1 and the external antenna.

That is why I explicitly stated the "range of the Sekonic meter equipped with the PW module is paltry compared to a standard issue Pocket Wizard."

Nothing in my post assigns this short range attribute to the modified D1.



As worded, Lon, your initial post could be interpreted as suggesting by inference that the range limitation seen in the Sekonic PW module would be present in the D1's internal radio module as well and that it is in some way attributable to the device's reduced form factor. Your point regarding the radios' parasitic use of the host's battery (host being the D1 or Sekonic meter) is well taken. However, in the context of this thread, the issue of the radio-equipped Sekonic's range seems a bit of a red herring. No doubt providing the Sekonic with an external antenna would level the playing field and render the point referencing the meters' triggering range moot.

Dave F.

[Rudi]

We all have our own opinion don't we? :)


Yep, and your conclusion is clearly based on opinion, not fact.

[dsvilko]

<rant more on>
As someone who is new to the whole dSLR OCF, I must say I was really disappointed with the sorry state of the systems for wireless flash triggering. They are either extremely simple, ridiculously priced or both.
I have recently bought a wireless trigger (PT-04 clone) for $18 and after a few hundred shots I can tell you that they are completely reliable. They failed to trigger on maybe 10 shots and that was when I have forgotten to turn on the receiver! The range is also far greater than I need (tested to about 40m). Why are the 'brand name' triggers so expensive? Because they can be. Just look at the prices at which Canon sells small peaces of plastic (lens hoods and such) and people are still buying them. Photographers usually have a lot more money to spend on gear than average person and the manufacturers know this. The sales pitch of 'Would you rather buy an inferior product at 1/10 the price of our Original High Quality Product?' usually works even though the difference between the products could be marginal. I honestly believe that the low price of some product is enough to steer a good majority of photographers away.
<rant more off>

Here is what I would like to be able to buy:
A nice manual flash such as a YN460. It's already got a digital power control. All they have to do is add an external port that would be able to operate these same two buttons. A 3.5mm stereo connector would do. How much would that raise the price? $2?
If you can buy a $20 RF remote controlled toy (or a car alarm remote) they should certainly be able to make a RF flash trigger that could, apart form triggering the flash also be able to control those two buttons. No need for any kind of RF feedback. Just add a simple 2 buttons on a transmitter that work the same as the ones on the flash. This certainly seems possible for under $100 (both the flash and the triggers) and I think it would be useful - a completely manual flash that you can simply control from your camera.

[Rudi]

I think the OP is spot on in his assessment. First off yes the cost to produce the components that makeup a PW are probably around 10 dollars at most, the issue is in the development and manufacturing cost of a product with such small scale distribution. However, it bothers me to know end that canon and nikon have not stepped in and just created their own solution. Ideally I would love to see a blue tooth setup where the camera has a built in 50' blue tooth radio transmitter and canon could release a flash with a built in bluetooth receiver. Bluetooth is not region specific and is fairly cheap to implement, range is a bit limited, but for when a photographer really needs more than 50-100 feet they can just go with the larger pocket wizards.

There is absolutely need to design a new system if all you want is limited range - the ST-E2 flash controller and EX flashes will already give you all that, reliably (even outside, if you exercise a bit of common sense).

[turbo212003]

For what they do, I don't mind the size. Like people have said, it's been done and apparently not very popular among camera manufacturers

[k_strecker]

Pocket Wizard has been producing radio triggers for about 2 decades now. They had one major competitor in the beginning, Quantum. Quantum's still around, but the only people I know who use their radio triggers are people who acquired them used and have never needed to upgrade.

Pocket wizards are in their 6th generation, with the 4th and 5th still in production as they offer varying levels of functionality and that is represented by their prices.

They're made in the USA.

The other, very cheap, RF devices people are referenceing are all available at Wal-Mart. Need I say more?

In 2.5 years of freelance photo assisting I've worked for countless dozens of photographers from all over the country. Besides the few who use the *old* quantum triggers, everyone has a bagful of pocket wizards! Last week I worked for the very first person to use something else, and he was rocking Cybersyncs. It was simply in preparation for the release of the Cyber-Commander, so he could control his boom-mounted monolights from camera position.

What's a couple hundred spent on wireless triggers when they're in a bag surrounded by tens of thousands of dollars worth of lenses and cameras and lights?

That's the bottom line, imo. It's all relative, and in pro photography the cost of a handful of pocket wizards is negligible.

[TMR Design]

^ +1. Well said.

[DerekW]

Agreed.
Also, though we often think, "If they did it this way, for this much $$, they'd sell millions!"... it simply isn't true. Wireless flashes are really a niche product and will always garner limited sales in the big, global picture of commerce. let alone they'd probably have to sell 1000 units before they even see one nickel of profit after R&D, initial production, advertising, etc.

[cdifoto]

Anyone who isn't happy with what's available on the market is free to manufacturer his or her own.

[k_strecker]

Anyone who isn't happy with what's available on the market is free to manufacturer his or her own.

tru.

There seems to be a great sense of entitlement among photo equipment shoppers. They want it, so they should be able to *afford* it . . . and if they can't, the stuff is obviously overpriced.

[Psychobiker]

As a radio amateur and EE, we're allowed funny power levels at 433Mhz. It would be easy to trigger something 100 miles away :)

[k_strecker]

As a radio amateur and EE, we're allowed funny power levels at 433Mhz. It would be easy to trigger something 100 miles away :)

US or CE?

[Psychobiker]

EI. I wonder, two sites elevated and a monoband yagi on some flash triggers.

[njmac7777]

so wait, there's radio units that can adjust the power output of my strobes!?!? why didn't i start reading this forum years ago?

[DDCSD]

As a radio amateur and EE, we're allowed funny power levels at 433Mhz. It would be easy to trigger something 100 miles away :)

Easy to trigger it, nearly impossible to sync it. :lol:

<rant more on>
As someone who is new to the whole dSLR OCF, I must say I was really disappointed with the sorry state of the systems for wireless flash triggering. They are either extremely simple, ridiculously priced or both.
I have recently bought a wireless trigger (PT-04 clone) for $18 and after a few hundred shots I can tell you that they are completely reliable. They failed to trigger on maybe 10 shots and that was when I have forgotten to turn on the receiver! The range is also far greater than I need (tested to about 40m). Why are the 'brand name' triggers so expensive? Because they can be. Just look at the prices at which Canon sells small peaces of plastic (lens hoods and such) and people are still buying them. Photographers usually have a lot more money to spend on gear than average person and the manufacturers know this. The sales pitch of 'Would you rather buy an inferior product at 1/10 the price of our Original High Quality Product?' usually works even though the difference between the products could be marginal. I honestly believe that the low price of some product is enough to steer a good majority of photographers away.
<rant more off>

Here is what I would like to be able to buy:
A nice manual flash such as a YN460. It's already got a digital power control. All they have to do is add an external port that would be able to operate these same two buttons. A 3.5mm stereo connector would do. How much would that raise the price? $2?
If you can buy a $20 RF remote controlled toy (or a car alarm remote) they should certainly be able to make a RF flash trigger that could, apart form triggering the flash also be able to control those two buttons. No need for any kind of RF feedback. Just add a simple 2 buttons on a transmitter that work the same as the ones on the flash. This certainly seems possible for under $100 (both the flash and the triggers) and I think it would be useful - a completely manual flash that you can simply control from your camera.

Your logic is flawed. The triggering is the easy part, getting it to do it at the exact same moment your camera's shutter is open is the tricky part.

The reason for the relatively high price of these triggers is one part research/developement and one part government compliance. The actual cost of manufacture is minuscule compared to these two things.



so wait, there's radio units that can adjust the power output of my strobes!?!? why didn't i start reading this forum years ago?

Depends on your strobes. Some Elinchroms have this capability, as well as Alien Bees/White Lightning.

[pietsch]

Hi Todd,

You may not like the form factor or the price but the original Pocket Wizards were and still are the industry standard. That is mostly due to the fact that they are incredibly reliable and seamlessly integrate with Sekonic light meters, which have also become something of an industry standard.

I'm not an engineer so I can't address the issues of size or design but almost every real world shooting pro is still choosing Pocket Wizards (Plus, Plus II, Multi Max) and they rely on them every day for reliable triggering.

I'm not saying that some of the alternatives are not good, because they are, but they're not really taking much of the market share away from Pocket Wizard. Pocket Wizard never used to have a 2 tier product line but now they do. Pro's are still choosing the larger, bulkier Pocket Wizards and no one is really complaining. Some pros and ETTL/iTTL Speedlight shooters are using the new Pocket Wizards but not the majority.

Keep in mind that shrinking the hardware means shrinking or minimizing the user interface. The new Pocket Wizards are not only using cheaper switches which many people have commented on but they've removed some basic hardware switching from the interface and put it into software that must be controlled from a computer.

In the case of Skyports, they work great but the build and user interface has much to be desired. Basic controls are now using tiny DIP switch style slide switches that are not 100% reliable and have glitches.

If you look at the number of radio transmitter and receiver systems sold to photographers and compare them to the number of people that are buying wireless cards and wi-fi devices I would bet that the statistics show the number to be very small.

LPA/Pocket Wizard are probably the biggest of those companies making radio triggering devices and by most people's standards they are still a tiny company with a lot of overhead. I'm sure that if someone wanted to step up to the plate and put up the cash to the R&D, engineers and production costs they could make a reliable Pocket Wizard the size of a CF card but I don't see anyone doing that.

I'm not saying these products couldn't be improved but the reality is we're not dealing with Microsoft. In time we'll see improvements but if it were practical to do as you're asking it would probably be happening. The fact that it's not doesn't mean the technology isn't there. It just means that at this time it's too expensive to produce at an affordable price for the consumer.

That's my take. I could be way off base as well.
Hi Rob (right?)
Is it worthwhile to look for a skyportset instead of a pocket enchanterer?:-)
I am really in doubt .read so much about wires and cables that i am in a knot so to speak.
can't you just buy a transmitter and 2 receivers working with 550ex and 580ex ?
it is tempting to buy the tt1 and tt5 with the ttl functions. but what if a softbox or anything else hinders the signals. thank you.regards piet

[Psychobiker]

The speed of light being 3x(10exp8 ) m/s...it'd work I'd say...

1" shutter! :D

[TMR Design]

Hi Rob (right?)
Is it worthwhile to look for a skyportset instead of a pocket enchanterer?:-)
I am really in doubt .read so much about wires and cables that i am in a knot so to speak.
can't you just buy a transmitter and 2 receivers working with 550ex and 580ex ?
it is tempting to buy the tt1 and tt5 with the ttl functions. but what if a softbox or anything else hinders the signals. thank you.regards piet

Hi Piet,

Yes, Rob is fine. :D

Skyports work very nicely. If you own Elinchrom RX's then the Skyport RX is useful because it not only does radio triggering but also gives you the ability to control individual power levels, levels as groups. and modeling lights from the transmitter.

If you're going to use Skyports for a non-RX Elinchrom strobe or a strobe other than an Elinchrom then the Skyport universal set is what you need. Once you have wireless triggering you'll never want to go back. It's a blessing.

With radio transmitters and receivers you no longer have to worry about line of sight having objects intercepting the signal. That only happens with Infrared. Radio gives you more freedom, greater range and can be used inside softboxes and other modifiers.

[TMR Design]

The speed of light being 3x(10exp8 ) m/s...it'd work I'd say...

1" shutter! :D

OK I have to ask.... are you a physicist, scientist or mathematician? :D

[Todd Lambert]

tru.

There seems to be a great sense of entitlement among photo equipment shoppers. They want it, so they should be able to *afford* it . . . and if they can't, the stuff is obviously overpriced.

While that might be true to some extent, I can assure you that in my case, it's not a matter of money as much as it is wanting to research the best avenue possible for my needs and getting something that will have some sort of longevity.

I want to get something that is not going to have interference issues with my speedlights. It seems the next wave of products is coming with the feature of controlling power levels, etc.. so I want that too... I mean, if I'm going to spend the money to get something I want to get the latest and greatest, no?

My original question was not meant to be an insult to anyone, just an honest curiosity in the current state of triggers and why they are as expensive as they are when they seem to be something that would be cheaper. As I said, it doesn't seem to be rocket science, but then I can't create them myself, so maybe it is... There just seems to be other small products that can be obtained in lower price ranges that are just as complicated or complex and they are in a smaller form factor, and pretty cheap, relatively speaking. My example here was the Eye-Fi wireless SD cards.

Anyways, thanks everyone for the enlightening posts, I've learned a lot from this thread so far. I don't mean to sound like I am complaining (too much anyways) - just was curious why there are so many varying opinions, prices, reliability, and features in this product segment.

[TMR Design]

While that might be true to some extent, I can assure you that in my case, it's not a matter of money as much as it is wanting to research the best avenue possible for my needs and getting something that will have some sort of longevity.

I want to get something that is not going to have interference issues with my speedlights. It seems the next wave of products is coming with the feature of controlling power levels, etc.. so I want that too... I mean, if I'm going to spend the money to get something I want to get the latest and greatest, no?

My original question was not meant to be an insult to anyone, just an honest curiosity in the current state of triggers and why they are as expensive as they are when they seem to be something that would be cheaper. As I said, it doesn't seem to be rocket science, but then I can't create them myself, so maybe it is... There just seems to be other small products that can be obtained in lower price ranges that are just as complicated or complex and they are in a smaller form factor, and pretty cheap, relatively speaking. My example here was the Eye-Fi wireless SD cards.

Anyways, thanks everyone for the enlightening posts, I've learned a lot from this thread so far. I don't mean to sound like I am complaining (too much anyways) - just was curious why there are so many varying opinions, prices, reliability, and features in this product segment.

Hi Todd,

I think that if you're looking at longevity of a product and manufacturer your best bet is going to be either Pocket Wizard, Skyport or Cybersync. Ebay triggers are popular and some do work very well but those companies or stores could disappear tomorrow or you might find yourself without the ability to get support. I realize that they are cheap and some would consider them disposable but that mentality doesn't work for me.

If you stick with what is popular and clearly leading the industry you can't go wrong.

[k_strecker]

If you want to try it yourself, Todd, there's the Open Source StrobIt Triggr [sic]

http://code.google.com/p/strobit/

http://blog.strobotics.com.au/strobit/

Like I said, Pocket Wizard's been going for 20+ years and already beat down one round of competition. No one can predict the future, but they've got real history.

[dsvilko]

Easy to trigger it, nearly impossible to sync it. :lol:
Your logic is flawed. The triggering is the easy part, getting it to do it at the exact same moment your camera's shutter is open is the tricky part.

Am I missing something or hasn't that been 'discovered' thousand times already? Though I am a physicist, I must confess I don't have a lot of electronics background so I could be wrong but I think that today it's not difficult at all to achieve a 1/1000 response time for something as simple as this, and at a low price. I am pretty sure that the IC circuit in my triggers is not custom designed. Don't know what kind of response time RC toys are getting but it's probably fast enough.
Take the worst case scenario. I have bought my triggers for $18. Let's say that shipping from HK to Europe was $5. That's $13 for the triggers. You could do what I suggest with a three sets of triggers and no R&D (that's $44 with shipping). Now, if they did that in the factory ('merge' 3 sets of triggers) it would probably cost them significantly less than 3 separate sets. It could certainly be sold for about $30. With a matching small, portable flash like YN460 for $50, that could be about $70 for the complete set.
The problem here is with the 'What do you care how much it costs when it's just peanuts to the price I paid for my L lenses?'. With that attitude the vast majority of the photographers will be buying the most expensive triggers with no regard for the cost. In that kind of environment it's nearly impossible for a small startup to market a competing product. The new product would probably have to be priced a lot above PW just to get noticed.

[DC Fan]

Wasn't there once something called a sync cord? (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/Sync-Cords/ci/1214/N/4294550949) Aren't those cords still being manufactured? (http://www.paramountcords.com/synccords.asp) Do those cables (http://www.adorama.com/catalog.tpl?op=itemlist&cat1=Flash/Lighting&cat2=Flash%20%26%20Lighting%20Accessories&cat3=Sync%20%26%20PC%20Cords) have a better chance of working properly under some circumstances than wireless links?

[Psychobiker]

Rob, Electronics Engineer, Radio HAM and weekend dabbler in Quantum Mechanics.

Hopefully I can design a thought-triggered radio-flash-trigger then :D

[airfrogusmc]

Some of us old school guys still use cords:shock:

[TMR Design]

Rob, Electronics Engineer, Radio HAM and weekend dabbler in Quantum Mechanics.

Hopefully I can design a thought-triggered radio-flash-trigger then :D

Very cool. I'll be looking forward to seeing that trigger. ;)

[Psychobiker]

Some of us old school guys still use cords:shock:

Seeing as thoughts are neuroelectrical impulses, I'd wager the cord is about the same! :D

[Psychobiker]

Very cool. I'll be looking forward to seeing that trigger. ;)

"Heey!! I only thought about taking that shot...! I didn't actually press..."

DOH! Fatally flawed!

[bobbyz]

I think some of the reasons for higher costs are:

1. It is photography related items so add twice what it should cost anyway.

2. Low volume. WiFi Wireless, Cellphones etc. though lot complicated use standard chip sets from big compaines. Since everyone's product use almost same chips, things get so much cheaper.

[k_strecker]

The new product would probably have to be priced a lot above PW just to get noticed.

No, the newcomer would need 20 years of experience an reliability assurance, tie-ins with major lighting brands, and ability to be triggered via built-in device in name brand light meters . . . in order to get noticed.

[k_strecker]

Wasn't there once something called a sync cord? (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/Sync-Cords/ci/1214/N/4294550949) Aren't those cords still being manufactured? (http://www.paramountcords.com/synccords.asp) Do those cables (http://www.adorama.com/catalog.tpl?op=itemlist&cat1=Flash/Lighting&cat2=Flash%20%26%20Lighting%20Accessories&cat3=Sync%20%26%20PC%20Cords) have a better chance of working properly under some circumstances than wireless links?

Yep, I worked a photo shoot in a steel foundry once. The EM from the arc furnaces was so great that it made a video camera record nothing but static, and pocketwizards became useless

good times.

[DDCSD]

Am I missing something or hasn't that been 'discovered' thousand times already? Though I am a physicist, I must confess I don't have a lot of electronics background so I could be wrong but I think that today it's not difficult at all to achieve a 1/1000 response time for something as simple as this, and at a low price. I am pretty sure that the IC circuit in my triggers is not custom designed. Don't know what kind of response time RC toys are getting but it's probably fast enough.
Take the worst case scenario. I have bought my triggers for $18. Let's say that shipping from HK to Europe was $5. That's $13 for the triggers. You could do what I suggest with a three sets of triggers and no R&D (that's $44 with shipping). Now, if they did that in the factory ('merge' 3 sets of triggers) it would probably cost them significantly less than 3 separate sets. It could certainly be sold for about $30. With a matching small, portable flash like YN460 for $50, that could be about $70 for the complete set.
The problem here is with the 'What do you care how much it costs when it's just peanuts to the price I paid for my L lenses?'. With that attitude the vast majority of the photographers will be buying the most expensive triggers with no regard for the cost. In that kind of environment it's nearly impossible for a small startup to market a competing product. The new product would probably have to be priced a lot above PW just to get noticed.

How is it difficult to start-up in a market in which you claim everything is over-priced? That would make it easy.

There's obviously a market for cheap triggers and flashes, because they're being made right now and selling well. The problem is, in order to keep your products priced so low, you need to cut corners. This results in the multitude of problems that the cheap flashes and triggers have been plagued with.


Lastly, who wants a flash with a built-in wireless receiver that will only work with one brand of trigger? I'd much rather add my trigger of choice to a flash than be forced to pay extra to have a trigger already integrated into it. What happens when that receiver dies? What happens when that company goes out of business?

That doesn't even bring into play the massive size that the flash would need to be in order to properly shield the receiver to combat the massive amounts of interference that the flash produces, if you could even shield it enough. Look at the problems that the new Pocketwizards are having with interference. Look at the problems that the ebay triggers have had in the past. There are some documented cases of Cybersyncs having interference issues with certain flashes.

[RDKirk]

Quote:
Originally Posted by njmac7777
so wait, there's radio units that can adjust the power output of my strobes!?!? why didn't i start reading this forum years ago?

Depends on your strobes. Some Elinchroms have this capability, as well as Alien Bees/White Lightning.

Also some models of Hensel and now Profoto.

I've been using wireless full remote control with White Lightning/Alienbees for several years now. Wireless remote control must be like being hooked on crack--once you've tried it, you won't want to go back home.

There are some things that have become sine qua non features for me in certain devices. I will not, for instance, purchase a sedan that does not have cruise control. I will not now buy a DSLR that does not have Live View. I will not buy a laptop that does not have the Thinkpad touchpoint. I will not buy an electronic flash system that does not have wireless full remote control. It's that good.

Interestingly, Paul Buff was one of the first, and even his old system is more effective than any other system, even those at multiple times the price.

[zaathrus]

Am I missing something or hasn't that been 'discovered' thousand times already? Though I am a physicist, I must confess I don't have a lot of electronics background so I could be wrong but I think that today it's not difficult at all to achieve a 1/1000 response time for something as simple as this, and at a low price. I am pretty sure that the IC circuit in my triggers is not custom designed. Don't know what kind of response time RC toys are getting but it's probably fast enough.
Take the worst case scenario. I have bought my triggers for $18. Let's say that shipping from HK to Europe was $5. That's $13 for the triggers. You could do what I suggest with a three sets of triggers and no R&D (that's $44 with shipping). Now, if they did that in the factory ('merge' 3 sets of triggers) it would probably cost them significantly less than 3 separate sets. It could certainly be sold for about $30. With a matching small, portable flash like YN460 for $50, that could be about $70 for the complete set.
The problem here is with the 'What do you care how much it costs when it's just peanuts to the price I paid for my L lenses?'. With that attitude the vast majority of the photographers will be buying the most expensive triggers with no regard for the cost. In that kind of environment it's nearly impossible for a small startup to market a competing product. The new product would probably have to be priced a lot above PW just to get noticed.

FCC/EU compliance testing costs are not insignificant...

A new trigger wants to be 2.4GHz and also use similar tech (perhaps even licensed) to the Spektrum/JR DSM2 (one of the most reliable RC systems) - to be able to get ahead. Size would not be an issue!

TBH, I'm quite happy with my PWs - except for the cost...

[Wilt]

The earth is flat. Photographic proof of the Earth being a sphere, as seen from space, is a conspiracy. Do you really think they left a Hasselblad on the moon, when they could have brought it back with them?! (ya launched it, so ya can bring it back, fool!). A small transmitter is easy...you only have to examine the FM spy cameras they sell all over the place, to realize that small transmitters are simple. Big batteries? Lookit the cell phones and how long they last! Michael Jackson and Elvis are both alive in Tennessee, with Bigfoot. It's all a conspiracy.


:rolleyes:

[DerekW]

Also some models of Hensel and now Profoto.

I've been using wireless full remote control with White Lightning/Alienbees for several years now. Wireless remote control must be like being hooked on crack--once you've tried it, you won't want to go back home.

There are some things that have become sine qua non features for me in certain devices. I will not, for instance, purchase a sedan that does not have cruise control. I will not now buy a DSLR that does not have Live View. I will not buy a laptop that does not have the Thinkpad touchpoint. I will not buy an electronic flash system that does not have wireless full remote control. It's that good.

Interestingly, Paul Buff was one of the first, and even his old system is more effective than any other system, even those at multiple times the price.

What system do you use?