Why is everyone bent on no 60D?

[slitherjef]

I keep seeing these, "Is the 7D the end of the XXD series cameras" and "where is the 60D?"

The 50D just came out not to long ago and remember when it came out? A lot of people got mad because the 40D was not out too long before that. Then the fact that the 50D was "not much of an upgrade to the 40D for cannon to bring out the newer model"

So canon releases the 7D and people are wanting a replacement for the 50D that came out not to long ago... why? If a 60D was put out right now people would have a problem with that since the 50D is not that old, but people now have a problem that a 50D did NOT get a replacement :rolleyes:

Does the 50D really suck that bad? Does canon really need to put out a new camera every single year? Or in some cases, less then a year?

Personaly I think the 60D will be released next year after the dust settles from the 7D and the 50D has some time to actualy get used. Perhaps it will be announced if and when the 1s series upgrades are.

Okay, rant over :)

[dmo580]

yes but it seems the 7D follows the XXD series upgrades.

The question is how the new model numbers line up?

1Ds
1D
5D
XXD
XXXD
XXXXD

Now where does the 7D sit?

[tfd888]

yes but it seems the 7D follows the XXD series upgrades.

The question is how the new model numbers line up?

1Ds
1D
5D
7D
XXD
XXXD
XXXXD

Now where does the 7D sit?

I believe in the press release it was said that the 7D sits just below the 5D and is above the 50D.

[tkbslc]

As I have said in other threads, how can canon leave a gap between a $800 higher end rebel, like the T1i, and the 7D. That is a huge gap with nice cameras from every other brand sitting in there. So if I don't want to fork out $1800, but I want a bit more than a Rebel, Canon is just going to let me buy a Nikon D90, Olympus E30 or Pentax K7? Doubtful. I bet they will either leave the 50D around until the 7D gets replaced by the 7Dmk2 and it becomes the $1100 camera, or they will release a 60D - that is just basically a 50D with video, for about the same price.

[bluefox9er]

have you *seen* the 7d specs???

it's a 60d in everything but name only!

[slitherjef]

have you *seen* the 7d specs???


Yes. It looks like a sweet camera and I want one. I guess the point on my OP is you can't make everyone happy all the time. No matter what canon (and I am sure, Nikon as well) does, they are always going to piss some one off.

[rikaro]

they said that it is not a replacement of the 50d so I believe a 60d or some sort of replacement will come out eventually. Who knows? Time will tell.

[goldboughtrue]

have you *seen* the 7d specs???

it's a 60d in everything but name only!

That's exactly what I thought. The 7D is a 1.6x crop camera and should follow xxD series. Maybe Canon is trying to trick people who don't know better that the 7D is better than the 5D just by looking at the model numbers. Also, I was surprised to see a pop-up flash and since the 5D has no internal flash, the 7D should definitely be named 60D.

[MichaelBernard]

people are wanting a replacement for the 50D that came out not to long ago... why?



A lot of people got mad because 50D was "not much of an upgrade to the 40D for cannon "

See what I did there?

[slitherjef]

See what I did there?

Called me out on my bad grammer and answering my own question? Nope, did not see it :p

[amfoto1]

Canon's statement that the new model does not replace an existing model might actually be true this time.

They know they need a camera in the $1000-1200 US range. The 50D is that camera and I'd wager it will be upgraded to the 60D eventually... next Spring would be right on the usual 18 month schedule and is my best guess.

What Canon has lacked has been an even more pro-oriented crop sensor camera. They were seeing a lot of sales going to their competition as a result. Hence, the 7D with features and price similar to the Nikon D300S.

I think it's a great move on their part, and am pleased with the feature set of the new camera (although there are a few more I'd like to have seen as well). No, I don't think the 7D tries to or should replace the 50D. I think this is a whole new product niche for Canon, one that's previously mostly been occupied by the D200/300/300S.

The whiners who really really really wanted it to be Full Frame and are pissing and moaning that it's not are downright silly, too. Don't you think Canon will be responding to the erosion of their Full Frame niche, too? I bet we see a third Canon Full Framer in the not-too-distant future, probably priced below $2000.... Or there will be a new model about the same price as the 5D Mk II is now and that camera's price will get reduced. They need to respond to the D700 and the new sub-$2000 Sony FF model. Canon can't just sit back and watch while Nikon offers three FF models and Sony offers two! Rumor is that Pentax has one in the works, too. Ouch!

No doubt there will also be an ultra-megapixel 1Ds Mark IV and an ultra-high-speed 1D Mark IV. Again, competitive pressures leave them no choice! Canon won't sit there very long without the megapixel crown, and their premium model has now been "beaten" by two competitors (and is even matched by a camera in their own line).

The new AF/Viewfinder features of the 7D, along with everything else, are certainly very good clues for what we might expect to see on those other new models, when they finally appear.

And, after the 1D Mark III auto focus mess, I bet they are pretty careful to test everything thoroughly before releasing it!

[jwcdds]

The popup flash doubles as a transmitter for other flashes, so I certainly don't mind it being there. One less item to purchase because it's built-in.

As for the lack of a 60D. I'm pretty sure there will be a 60D. It's going to be the usual slight upgrade from the previous xxD. Basically, it's likely keeping the same 9-point AF, possibly sharing the same sensor as the 7D, digic V, throw in video and retails around $1200. Canon will still want to compete with Nikon's D90 line-up.

[Ziffle]

The popup flash doubles as a transmitter for other flashes, so I certainly don't mind it being there. One less item to purchase because it's built-in.

As for the lack of a 60D. I'm pretty sure there will be a 60D. It's going to be the usual slight upgrade from the previous xxD. Basically, it's likely keeping the same 9-point AF, possibly sharing the same sensor as the 7D, digic V, throw in video and retails around $1200. Canon will still want to compete with Nikon's D90 line-up.

so you have seen the progression from 10-20-30-40-50.....

why would the 60 be any different:
same sensor w/ better noise control or IQ
add HD video
updated back screen (same as 7D).....
maybe add swivel to screen... guessing....

canon wants to sell cameras - right? Why give 1 or 2 cameras that do everything...... than spread the wealth .... for canon.

Body only:
60D - $1200
7D - $1700-1600
5Dmkii - $2700



Later.....
Mark

[MaDProFF]

so you have seen the progression from 10-20-30-40-50.....

why would the 60 be any different:
same sensor w/ better noise control or IQ
add HD video
updated back screen (same as 7D).....
maybe add swivel to screen... guessing....

canon wants to sell cameras - right? Why give 1 or 2 cameras that do everything...... than spread the wealth .... for canon.

Body only:
60D - $1200
7D - $1700-1600
5Dmkii - $2700



Later.....
Mark

But this is one of the main Reasons that a lot have gone over to Nikon, because they have bought out a camera that does everything very well, the D700, and if they do not come in line they will lose a few more after the next 1 Series releases

[Lowner]

A better line up, at least one I'd very much like to see :

1Ds / 1D
3D
7D
XXD
XXXD
XXXXD

The top two lines being full frame, with the 7D being the start of a new pro/am crop line.

[Ziffle]

But this is one of the main Reasons that a lot have gone over to Nikon, because they have bought out a camera that does everything very well, the D700, and if they do not come in line they will lose a few more after the next 1 Series releases

oh i see you over there w/ your sexy Nikon......
.....its all good.

just interesting about the 60D/7D - should be this - should be that conversations....

[alt4852]

A better line up, at least one I'd very much like to see :

1Ds / 1D
3D
7D
XXD
XXXD
XXXXD

The top two lines being full frame, with the 7D being the start of a new pro/am crop line.

i don't see the purpose of introducing a 3d series when canon could just as easily make the next interation of the 5d with pro-AF and weathersealing. it'd be:

1ds : 5d :: 1d : 7d

[apersson850]

I see that none of the posters in this thread have fully understood the current lineup among Canon's EOS cameras. Probably because you see it by cost only and/or because you think it has to be one line.
It's not. It's an Y-shaped lineup, looking like this:


1D Mark III 1Ds Mark III
50D 5D Mark II
500D
1000D


You can see that the base is populated by the universal entry-level cameras 1000D and 500D. Above them, the line splits in two, the left one emphasizing speed, the other ultimate resolution.
There's a considerable price difference on the levels in this tree, and sometimes also as far as the features go.

Now the 7D enters into the left branch of the tree.


1D Mark III 1Ds Mark III
7D 5D Mark II
50D
500D
1000D


Due to the considerable vertical cost gaps at some places, it's not difficult to see that in some future, there would be space for cameras like these:


1D Mark IV 1Ds Mark IV
3D
7D 5D Mark II
60D 9D
550D
2000D


The 3D is here a 5D Mark II with some speed, the 9D a lower cost (lower resolution?), but still full frame, camera. The others represent the normal evolution of the models.

Sorry for the Code snippets, but it's impossible to format something with spaces in any other way I'm familiar with.

[moeronn]

have you *seen* the 7d specs???

it's a 60d in everything but name only!I see the 7d as a 50d on steroids. It's not an upgrade of the current line - it is a new line they are introducing to fill the gap between the 50d and 5d.

Yes, their naming convension is getting a bit confusing, but that was bound to happen at some point.

[Optiq]

I'm repeating myself from one of the other seventy five "7D 60D woe is me" threads, but:

They can now release the 60D anytime they want. All they have to do is change the 7 to a 60 and hobble a couple of features.

They should have stuck with the xxD for the 1.6 sensors, no doubt, and left the single digits to the FF.

But there are many threads where folks here say a 5DMKii isn't automatically better than a 50D because the 1.6 sensor actually has some advantages (I'm no expert but something about pixel density and of course the reach). Don't forget the line of EF-S lenses they're getting boo coo bucks for that will work on the 7D.

I guess I'm answering my own questions too!

[alt4852]

I see that none of the posters in this thread have fully understood the current lineup among Canon's EOS cameras. Probably because you see it by cost only and/or because you think it has to be one line.

actually.. if you look at the post right before yours, i already stated that the 1ds is to the 5d as the 1d is to the 7d. yea.. not linear, just different series lines for different purposes. you might want to look a little harder if you can't find any posts that understand it's not linear. ;)

The 3D is here a 5D Mark II with some speed, the 9D a lower cost (lower resolution?), but still full frame, camera. The others represent the normal evolution of the models.

i think canon is going to keep the 5d as their lower cost full frame alternative to the 1ds. why does there need to be a 3d and a 9d? i think your future projection just depicts an overcrowded lineup. i think four full frame cameras and five crop bodies is overkill don't you think?

[Ziffle]

actually.. if you look at the post right before yours, i already stated that the 1ds is to the 5d as the 1d is to the 7d. yea.. not linear, just different series lines for different purposes. you might want to look a little harder if you can't find any posts that understand it's not linear. ;)



i think canon is going to keep the 5d as their lower cost full frame alternative to the 1ds. why does there need to be a 3d and a 9d? i think your future projection just depicts an overcrowded lineup. i think four full frame cameras and five crop bodies is overkill don't you think?
+1

I see:
1d/1ds - top 'pro' series

5d/7d - pro - stuff but not all of the bells and whistles of 'pro'

50d/60d - the top end of consumer bodies.
rebel - consumer - entry level

It is all ready laid out this way .... look on the left top dial.
(viewing from back)
7D and 5Dmkii don't have any little pictures of mountains / people / super fast runner ..... on it.

later....
Mark

[MLphoto]

What are you talking about there is going to be a 60D



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U0wGHb42_M

[apersson850]

Actually.. if you look at the post right before yours, I already stated that the 1ds is to the 5d as the 1d is to the 7d. Yea.. not linear, just different series lines for different purposes. You might want to look a little harder if you can't find any posts that understand it's not linear. ;)It was too late in the evening for me being able to interpret your formatting to show what I now can see it does show. Sorry.



I think canon is going to keep the 5d as their lower cost full frame alternative to the 1ds. why does there need to be a 3d and a 9d? i think your future projection just depicts an overcrowded lineup. I think four full frame cameras and five crop bodies is overkill don't you think?I'm not saying that all of these models need to be there. I'm just pointing out some "holes" Canon may want to cover, if they think it's worth it.

Reasonably, the success Nikon has had with the D300/D300s/D700 can't have passed Canon unnoticed. Now Canon is responding to the D300s with the D7. I'm just wondering if they don't feel the need to make something 5D Mark II-ish with some of the performance found in the 7D as well? If they do make a combination, then it's reasonable that it will become so much more expensive that they may need something else below it, unless they keep the 5D Mark II too. If they do, then they need some new name for a model above the 5D Mark II, and 5D Mark III doesn't sound too reasonable for that.

[Shadowblade]

I'm seeing something more like:

1D/1Ds: Full-sized pro action/resolution
3D/3Ds: Compact pro action/resolution (to compete with current D700 and potential D700x)
7D/5D: Prosumer action/resolution
xxD/xxxD/xxxxD: Consumer cameras

[apersson850]

Could be it will become that.
Now when they have the 7D to put beside the 5D Mark II, the 50D/60D may slide down into the single path lineup, even if it has features you can't find on the 5D Mark II.

[Shadowblade]

I could potentially see the 1D and 1Ds being merged into one full-sized body with inbuilt grip that serves both functions, with high data bandwidth for high-speed shooting, as well as a full-frame sensor for maximum detail resolution and electronic cropping to restore the 1.3x or 1.6x crop factors on an image if so desired. Pro and prosumer cameras below it would be divided by function. So you either get a single, large 1D which does everything, or a compact 3D/7D for action and a compact 3Ds/5D for resolution.

After all, APS-H was only introduced due to the initial cost of manufacturing full-frame sensors - there are EF lenses with an image circle designed for full frame and EF-S lenses with an image circle designed for APS-C, but no lenses really designed for APS-H - EF-S lenses don't fit, and EF lenses produce image circles larger than is necessary, making them larger and heavier than would be necessary for lenses designed specifically for APS-H.

[Jared Byer]

they said that it is not a replacement of the 50d so I believe a 60d or some sort of replacement will come out eventually. Who knows? Time will tell.

When the 50D came out they said it wasn't a replacement for the 40D.

However, I personally do not believe they are axing the XXD series. There is to large of a price gap between them and the new 7D.

I would love to see improved AF and high iso performance with a 60D. Unfortanatly I doubt we will see the 7Ds autofocus system (lets hope it lives up to the expectations many of us are putting on it) in a 60D though, perhaps more sensitive sensors though.

[MrChad]

I just hope that the 5DII and 7D remain on 3 year product cycles before replacement, as I would like a chance to pay off my credit card debt from purchasing them before they introduce the next version I simply have to own.

[apersson850]

Even if they kept the 40D beside the 50D, it's obvious that eventually, they will discontinue one of them, and it's not likely that the 50D will be cancelled before the 40D.

[tkbslc]

I still just wish they would make a digital back for an EOS 3 and Elan II.

Problem solved.

[alt4852]

I still just wish they would make a digital back for an EOS 3 and Elan II.

Problem solved.

a digital back for a 1v would be more like it.

in all seriousness, the inconspicuousness and size of my F1 make it perfect for street shooting in crowded areas. if a company ever made a digital back for it, it'd be ecstatic. battery pack and digital processing chips where the film canister and roll would go, and i'd be set. i love the look and feel of my old film stuff, i just wish that i could speed up workflow and not pay so much for film all the time. :D

[tkbslc]

I am sure it was not cost effective or it would have been done, but it does seem odd that nobody has come out with some kind of digital "film" insert. I wouldn't even care if it had an LCD. Just somehow cram it in where the film used to go and go shooting. It could even use the original film advance teeth as some sort of signal for a new frame.

[alt4852]

I am sure it was not cost effective or it would have been done, but it does seem odd that nobody has come out with some kind of digital "film" insert. I wouldn't even care if it had an LCD. Just somehow cram it in where the film used to go and go shooting. It could even use the original film advance teeth as some sort of signal for a new frame.

exactly!

hahaha, i completely understand how it'd essentially guarantee no returns on any investment into it, but that doesn't change how cool it'd be. a lot of the time, i just wish i could come home after a day of shooting with my F1 and just pop a card into my computer and see what i could work with. no LCD needed, no AF, no picture styles or JPG conversions.. just RAW files written from a full frame sensor onto a small card. hell, i'd probably be willing to pay $1500 for something like that just out of principle, but i know that 99.999% of the world out there wouldn't.

if only i could convince some rich guy into investing into a fruitless novelty like this, maybe we could get the ball rolling.. ;)

[amfoto1]

It's been done... Leica digital back for the R-series and the E-Film cartridge for any 35mm camera. Both didn't survive very long.

Remember way back a year or two ago... Someone discovered that UPC codes and numbers were registered for the 7D... and for a 3D? Everyone busily speculated about it, but nothing happened immediately so some people thought it was just a hoax because anyone can go register a UPC code... Or, a company might register one but never use it.

Well, guess what... Hey, the 7D has turned out to be real after all!

Maybe the 3D is or eventually will eventually be real too...

(Notes: It's interesting that there's also a UPC code for a "Canon EOS 9D Digital SLR (body only)", registered about a year ago. On the other hand, some goof ball has registered a "Canon 10-2000mm EF-S L Series Lens... weight 7 oz.", so obviously it's pretty easy to make fakes. www.upcdatabase.com is the site, a search for "canon" only brings back the max of 100 items though.)

Pure speculation...

Future crop sensor bodies & target prices (US $):

1.6X APS-C...
xxxxD (entry level) $400-500
xxxD (move-up model, eventually will have video too) $500-600
xxxD (consumer, w/video) $700-900
60D (pro-sumer, video added) $1000-1200
7D (semi-pro) $1600-1800

1.3X APS-H....
1D Mark IV (pro, add video, 15 to 18MP, ultra high frame rate) $4000-4500


Future Full Frame bodies/prices (US $):

5D Mark III (21 to 24MP, low frame rate, pro-sumer) $2100-2200
3D (21 to 24MP, high frame rate, semi-pro) $2700-2900
1Ds Mark IV (pro, probably about 35MP) $6500-7500

Of course, the prices are fluid and might be higher or lower, depending upon the economy, inflation/deflation, and most importantly what the competition does with the pricing on their similarly postioned models. There are plenty of other possibilities. For example, an alternative would be to use the 9D designation for a lower cost full frame model, instead of lowering the price on the 5D line as suggested above.

I really think everyone is looking at the 7D wrong...

It's not a replacement for the 50D and doesn't effect the need for that model in the line-up, nor the eventual and inevitable 60D. Nor should it be compared with the full frame 5D Mark II, although it certainly looks to be a good compliment to that camera for anyone who wants to use multiple formats...

The 7D is essentially a "1D Lite".

In a very similar sense, you could call the 5D Mk II a "1Ds Lite".

Cheers!

[Shadowblade]

The 7D is essentially a "1D Lite".

In a very similar sense, you could call the 5D Mk II a "1Ds Lite".

Definitely agree.

I would consider 'prosumer' and 'semi-pro' to be the same thing, though!

I can certainly envision compact pro bodies between the 5D/7D and 1D/1Ds lines, though - D700 and potential D700x are too big to ignore for long. Considering that it is half a generation newer, 7D is not a real competitor with the D700 (both action bodies). 5D2 competes only on resolution and video, falling flat in AF, weather sealing and other features common to 'professional' bodies; if the D3x sensor were added to the D700 (for a D700x model), the 5D2 would lose out on all counts.

[alt4852]

if i ever win the lottery, i'm going to march up to canon headquarters, hand them my F1 and $10,000 and ask them to find a way to integrate a 5d or 5dmk2 sensor into it. ;)

[amfoto1]

if i ever win the lottery, i'm going to march up to canon headquarters, hand them my F1 and $10,000 and ask them to find a way to integrate a 5d or 5dmk2 sensor into it. ;)


That won't be enough money... More like $10 million to develop and prototype a fully custom digital item like that... Unless you can live with a Netbook duct taped to the bottom of your F1. :)

[cdifoto]

have you *seen* the 7d specs???

it's a 60d in everything but name only!
The AF point arrangement alone tells me it's not an XXD replacement.

[dustyporch]

I think we are going to see a 60D, but I think it's going to be a downgrade (or maybe equal) to the 50D. It will get video and the latest Digic, and probably not much else. Basically, it will be a better handling T1i, more of a direct competitor with the D90.

Which is fine... The xxD were always a bit of a split-personality.

[amfoto1]

Definitely agree.

I would consider 'prosumer' and 'semi-pro' to be the same thing, though!

That's just semantics... Call them whatever you want... the point is that the 7D fills a product niche above the 50/60D, and a bit below the 1D Mk III. It doesn't try to replace either camera.


I can certainly envision compact pro bodies between the 5D/7D and 1D/1Ds lines, though - D700 and potential D700x are too big to ignore for long. Considering that it is half a generation newer, 7D is not a real competitor with the D700 (both action bodies). 5D2 competes only on resolution and video, falling flat in AF, weather sealing and other features common to 'professional' bodies; if the D3x sensor were added to the D700 (for a D700x model), the 5D2 would lose out on all counts.


I'm not very expert on the Nikon line-up, but I think the 7D most directly competes with D300/D300S.

The D700 really doesn't compare very directly with anything in the Canon line-up. It's a clever camera that addresses three distinct market niches: low light shooting, high speed (sports), as well as full frame. In some respects, it competes most directly with 1D Mk III (MP and speed), but it's still a different approach (full frame instead of APS-H size).

If there eventually is a D700x, I think it would be more squarely aimed at the 5D Mk II, or more likely positioned a bit higher up than the 5D Mk II in both price and capabilities (better AF, possibly more pro-quality build & features), but still not a full, top-of-the-line model.

It appears to me that Canon and Nikon sort of leapfrog each other with a lot of their models... rather than going head to head with them (other than at the entry level... where there's not significant differences among any of the manufacturers who choose to offer products). In other words, Nikon are positioned in between Canon, and vice versa.

Sony is another story and looks to increasingly be a "player". Their partnership with Nikon (which uses Sony CMOS sensors) means that their cameras are pretty directly comparable with certain Nikon models. You might say Sony & Nikon are "ganging up" against Canon's success, and this is part of what's re-energized Nikon the past several years.

We still can expect to see Pentax get more involved, rumor is they'll be fielding a full frame camera. Olympus will continue plowing their own particular 4/3 format field. Leica... Well they've always been a pretty highly specialized and exclusive player that didn't directly compete, but they appear to be going more head to head with Hasselblad and Mamiya/Leaf now.

[Shadowblade]

I'm not very expert on the Nikon line-up, but I think the 7D most directly competes with D300/D300S.

Agreed - Canon prosumer action body vs Nikon prosumer action body.

The D700 really doesn't compare very directly with anything in the Canon line-up. It's a clever camera that addresses three distinct market niches: low light shooting, high speed (sports), as well as full frame. In some respects, it competes most directly with 1D Mk III (MP and speed), but it's still a different approach (full frame instead of APS-H size).

It's a pro action camera in a compact body. Fully weather-sealed, pro AF, fast shooting speed for action; the sensor size difference is not particularly significant (after all, you can crop full-frame to 1.3x, but cannot expand 1.3x to full frame). Essentially, it's a D3 (Nikon's full-sized action body) in a compact package with very similar features otherwise, including every feature that makes the D3 a 'pro' camera, whatever that means.

If there eventually is a D700x, I think it would be more squarely aimed at the 5D Mk II, or more likely positioned a bit higher up than the 5D Mk II in both price and capabilities (better AF, possibly more pro-quality build & features), but still not a full, top-of-the-line model.

With it's pro features and build, the D700 is definitely positioned above the 5D2, which has an expensive, high-resolution full-frame sensor (unlike the relative low-resolution D700 sensor) but not much else in the way of pro features. Despite the fact that the D700 is a step higher than the 5D2, their prices are similar due to the sensor - the 5D2 has an expensive sensor, which increases its price to that of an action body one level higher. I would expect the D700x to be a D700 with the D3x's sensor - significantly more expensive than the 5D2, with pro features and build (just like the D700) equal to the D3/D3x, but in a compact form (perhaps losing the second CF card slot to save space, although even this is doubtful now).

It appears to me that Canon and Nikon sort of leapfrog each other with a lot of their models... rather than going head to head with them (other than at the entry level... where there's not significant differences among any of the manufacturers who choose to offer products). In other words, Nikon are positioned in between Canon, and vice versa.

I can't really agree here - D3 goes directly against 1D3 (full-sized pro action bodies); D3x goes directly against 1Ds3 (full-sized pro hi-res bodies); D300s goes directly against 7D (prosumer action bodies). It's just at the D700 level that there is a discrepancy, with Canon missing any compact pro bodies...

[bluefox9er]

7d is the 60d.

[alt4852]

7d is the 60d.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U0wGHb42_M

[pgruiz123]

They had to call the 7D "7D" and not the 60D. Had they called it the 60D with the 50D retailing for about $1000 at B&H they would not have been able to charge as much.