Atypical business situation?

[JJMiller]

I have a strange business proposition opening up to me, and even after reading through reading FAQs and searching the forum haven't really seen a situation close enough to mine to help me out.

My wife works for a profitable (and relatively famous) museum/home. The manager saw some of my images on my wife's blog and wants to use them for postcards for the house. She said that she liked them so much better than the images the pro they hired took a few years ago.

In addition, she wants to retain my services for future events--fall foliage, winter landscapes, etc. with the possibility of using images for marketing, postcards, merchandise, etc.

A few questions--

What should I charge for the images they'll be using for the postcards? Should I also charge for my time? Any suggestions?

What kind of contract, if any should I sign? I think there may be potential for some of the images to be used on merchandise other than postcards, but that's not etched in stone.

I know these sound like amateurish questions, but I'm having a hard time find a similar situation to mine through standard search methods.

Thanks for reading.

[golfecho]

I'm no expert at all, but my thought is to be sure to include reciprocol rights in any contract. For example, if you have a great photo that you want to sell or use elsewhere, you are effectively "using" the famous image of the house. I don't know if the image is trademarked, but if it is famous, they could reasonably claim you have no right to market it's image without their consent. So, for their rights to use your photographs (and skills/time, etc), you should make sure you include your rights to use their home in your own marketing, etc.

My $.02 . . .

[stathunter]

JJ - price is subjective and depends on the part of the country/world you are in etc. Since this is a little different and they have contracted someone in the past- I would simply ask the manager what fair compensation is - you can also ask for a percentage of the revenue but this could be a difficult one to track.
I typically ask clients that approach me what is fair or what their budget allows - then you have a handle on a starting point.

[RobNYC]

As far as the contract, you should maintain copyright ownership and grant them a license to use the photos. With the license, you have to be very specific on what uses you are allowing. You also have to be careful and specify a duration. If they just want postcards, then you say only for postcards and charge accordingly. If they want all available commercial uses, you charge alot more. If they want to own copyright, you would charge them even more. You may also specify that youy retain the right to exploit the photos for promotional purposes, such as your portfolio, contests, etc. You could try to keep the ability for commercial uses as well but they may not like that one.

[JJMiller]

Thank you, thank you, thank you for the replies. They gave me an extremely helpful place to jump off from.

Rights... wow. I knew a little about the one time thing for the postcards but never considered being able to use them for promotion purposes. And I also never considered using a tiered rate system for different uses--other merchandise or virtual usage.

The house is just outside of Pittsburgh. I talked to the manager the other day to set up an appointment and she mentioned taking fall and winter shots, so it looks like they're going to keep me busy for a while. Thank you all so much again.

[amfoto1]

A really good starting point is the book "Pricing Photography" by Michael Heron (and others). Last time I looked it was $16 on Amazon.com.

This book is a few years out of date, but the general info it includes is very valuable, it explains terminology and provides sample contracts, and there is detailed pricing based upon surveys of photographers. You'll have to adapt it to your specific situation.

There's also an excellent book about the business of photography published by the ASMP... The photographers represented by that organization are often photojournalists and such, and might not have a lot of knowledge of the intricacies of business. This book has far less about specific pricing, but gives samples that are probably some of the very best legal documents you'll find, having been well vetted by their staff attorneys and proven with a lot of use.

Just remember to not discount too heavily based upon promises of future work, unless you have very real guarantee of that work. Too often, promises, or half-promises, are made and photographers reduce the current price in hope of winning additional business that simply never materializes.

Also, if this is a private property and/or there are people in the images, don't forget that you need signed model and property releases to use the images in commercial products like postcards.

[JJMiller]

The house will be printing the postcards themselves, so can I assume that a property release is implied?

Here's what I've come up with so far--I'm going to charge them an hourly rate vs a setting fee, due to the spotty nature of the work. For example, they want me to come up one evening and take photos of several birdhouses they have on the property. Then, once the leaves have changed, they want me to come and take pictures of the house.

And for the images, I'd like to streamline the process on my end by granting a commercial license that let them use the image for merchandising and advertising purposes at a later date, while retaining rights to the image for my own promotional purposes.

So I'm trying to come up with an rate to charge hourly, and a rate to charge per image. Does this seem like the best way to go about doing this?

(My wife works there, which could be both good and bad. I don't want to be greedy, but I don't want to be taken advantage of. AND, they approached me about my pictures.)

[RobNYC]

Have they ever purchased photographs or hired a photog in the past? Perhaps your wife can find out what they paid in the past or what they might be willing to pay... might help you set a benchmark or help with negotiations.

When you are talking about pricing, you have to consider the duration of the license, etc. If it is perpetual, then you need to charge more.

[JJMiller]

Thanks for being extremely helpful and patient. I think I'm getting my proposal in decent shape.

Quick question--where would you start (price-wise) for licensing of an image? Several images will be used for postcards that they'll print, with one being used as an image on a tin for breath mints (like those little tins they sell in coffee shops). I expect other images will be used for other merchandising in the future--calendars, notebooks, stationary, etc. Nothing is certain, but I can anticipate them using images in this way. All I know is that I receive $75 an image for shots used by the local paper. I've had other images published in a travel guide that my wife and I wrote, but we weren't paid for individual images, just the advance on the book.

I was thinking $150-200 an image to start for a limited license? Plus an hourly rate, somewhere near $45-50 an hour? Like I said, I'm trying to walk a fine line between not looking like a sucker and looking like a greedy little piggy.

[RobNYC]

When you say that the image will be on a breath mint tin, where will it be sold? Only at the house or in supermarkets across the region, or nation? Without looking greedy, you have to try and have an idea what the image is worth to them... what they stand to profit? I've heard some photogs say that it is what the image is worth to YOU, and what YOU want to make from it, etc. But as great as an image is, if they don't agree or can't afford to pay, they just won't pay what you ask!

Ultimately I think only you can determine what your actual price will be.

[JJMiller]

All merchandise will be sold through the house's gift shop and through their online store.

Thanks again for your time. I know situations like this can be frustrating. especially in a message board exchange. So I am really grateful for your help.

I spent some time on the American Society for Media Photographers and Professional Photographers of America sites looking at licensing ideas. I'm meeting with the manager tonight, so I'll post back and let you know how it went.

Thanks again.

[RobNYC]

Good luck!