Client is lying about license specifics

[Karl Johnston]

In a scenario where you encounter a client who is lying, and you find out evidence that they were lying or stretching the truth in an attempt to get a cheaper deal off of you..what can you do?

I've been having a few discussions lately with stock photographers and one guy was encountering a client who's budget he knew through a relative that worked with them..but the guy he was dealing with was making a poor attempt to cover up the fact that he was lying about the circulation size, and their entire budget for the project. He ended up quoting a lower price and learned he probably could've got 3x as much if the client wasn't lying.

Now I'm sitting here and thinking ...what kind of protection do we have as photogs against that kind of thing? I encounter a lot of "we don't know the budget" when you can tell they clearly do, or have stated elsewhere what it is.

So I take a shot in the dark and usually quote relatively low. I feel I'm losing out, though, and I wonder...would this classify under breach of agreement, on the client's part? Or what do you more experienced guys and gals do in these situations?

[siriusdogstar]

next time ask for more than you know they can pay. when they balk, negotiate down to what you know they will pay. any less walk out the door. you won't make it before they accept. otherwise spread the word about their practice among a large community of photographers; you can probably think of someplace real close.

[Karl Johnston]

Here?:D

Thanks, you're right about quoting high. I guess with larger $$$ makers like ads I feel like if I quote way too high they'll simply move on, usually I get these through e-mail ...and if they don't answer back :( then that's what worries me..It's so bloody relative, too, nearly impossible to give an accurate quote if they're being deliberately ignorant about what they want, where they want to use it, or at least how long.

[cdifoto]

Quote what you'll accept for the job. If it's spec work it's not based on circulation but rather on complexity, or at least should be. I don't quote my wedding prices based on how many guests will be there. I quote it based on how far I have to travel and how many hours I'll be working.

If it's stock which is inherently based on usage, just hone your bull**** detector. If you catch them lying, tell them you can't give them a fair rate if they're not clear on what they want.

[gcflora]

Can't you stipulate in the contract permissible sizes?

[Karl Johnston]

Can't you stipulate in the contract permissible sizes?
Never actually thought about that, though that's kind of like what getty does, right? Or what would that look like?

[Box Brownie]

Can I ask an oversimplified question???

In the situation the OP describes is this not simple a normal sales negotiation? By this I mean the photographer is selling his services to provide a product and the client wants to buy said product i.e. the client may well have a budget maximum but as a buyer his role is to use as little of as possible and the tog must negotiate as close as possible (to in 99% of cases) what that hax budget could be???

Having insider knowledge that he mentions can be very usefull in such sales discussions but IMO the buyer is not lying but doing his job to reduce the spend whenever possible.

For the record I speak as a B2B sales person but have not (yet :D) entered the world (or had the opportunity) of using these skills to sell my images!

[ssim]

You can put anything in a contract that you want. The question is, will the other party sign it.

I have never ran into this sort of a situation but I don't deal directly with the end customer in most cases. My work is done through an agency and I know exactly how much I can charge and I don't think that they would fib on the numbers in order to attain a cheaper rate.

This is life, people are going to lie. Companies are doing everything they can to save costs as well and I don't blame them for that. You could try challenging them on this but be sure that you are right.

[Karl Johnston]

Can I ask an oversimplified question???

In the situation the OP describes is this not simple a normal sales negotiation? By this I mean the photographer is selling his services to provide a product and the client wants to buy said product i.e. the client may well have a budget maximum but as a buyer his role is to use as little of as possible and the tog must negotiate as close as possible (to in 99% of cases) what that hax budget could be???

Having insider knowledge that he mentions can be very usefull in such sales discussions but IMO the buyer is not lying but doing his job to reduce the spend whenever possible.

For the record I speak as a B2B sales person but have not (yet :D) entered the world (or had the opportunity) of using these skills to sell my images!
That's a fair question, and you're right. I suppose the other part of that is..when the client deliberately lies about the contract, knowing that the price is too low to be fought over in court under breach of contract..because that's essentially what it is, misleading the contract.

Client wants an image for 100 circulation, but instead turns around and uses it from the beginning in 20 000 circ. . . it's just a big hassle to go through the hula hoops every time when seeking more pay for the additional usage.

I'm thinking up ideas on how to get around it, but quite honestly i think it's just crappy clients.

This is life, people are going to lie. Companies are doing everything they can to save costs as well and I don't blame them for that. You could try challenging them on this but be sure that you are right.
That's true too..the question is, though, who's defining what is right and wrong? How do I determine if my price is fair or not? I thought it was just relativity and market demand

[Box Brownie]

That's a fair question, and you're right. I suppose the other part of that is..when the client deliberately lies about the contract, knowing that the price is too low to be fought over in court under breach of contract..because that's essentially what it is, misleading the contract.

Client wants an image for 100 circulation, but instead turns around and uses it from the beginning in 20 000 circ. . . it's just a big hassle to go through the hula hoops every time when seeking more pay for the additional usage.

I'm thinking up ideas on how to get around it, but quite honestly i think it's just crappy clients.

That's true too..the question is, though, who's defining what is right and wrong? How do I determine if my price is fair or not? I thought it was just relativity and market demand

Surely if your contract gives license (and agreed payment) for say the 100 circulation and there is a declaribly/confirmable run using the image of 20,000 then such a breach or misuse of your agreed usage license becomes a "no brainer" and rather taking them to court a lawyers letter to the company CEO or CFO pointing out that person X has acted in breach of contract will be a faster cleaner way to a resolution. Afteral those at the top of a company do not typically like their minions bringing "the company" into disrepute?

[chakalakasp]

In a scenario where you encounter a client who is lying, and you find out evidence that they were lying or stretching the truth in an attempt to get a cheaper deal off of you..what can you do?

I've been having a few discussions lately with stock photographers and one guy was encountering a client who's budget he knew through a relative that worked with them..but the guy he was dealing with was making a poor attempt to cover up the fact that he was lying about the circulation size, and their entire budget for the project. He ended up quoting a lower price and learned he probably could've got 3x as much if the client wasn't lying.

Now I'm sitting here and thinking ...what kind of protection do we have as photogs against that kind of thing? I encounter a lot of "we don't know the budget" when you can tell they clearly do, or have stated elsewhere what it is.

So I take a shot in the dark and usually quote relatively low. I feel I'm losing out, though, and I wonder...would this classify under breach of agreement, on the client's part? Or what do you more experienced guys and gals do in these situations?

Well, I think the best way to deal with a client who lies about usage is to write the usage exactly as discussed into the contract. If they claim 10,000 circulation and actually circulate 100,000, then having 10,000 written into the contract could be a serious legal liability to them. Of course, if you know ahead of time that they are not telling the truth, then you'd want to call them out on it -- it's always better to settle things ahead of time and not have to resort to a lawyer later.

[chakalakasp]

Quote what you'll accept for the job. If it's spec work it's not based on circulation but rather on complexity, or at least should be. I don't quote my wedding prices based on how many guests will be there. I quote it based on how far I have to travel and how many hours I'll be working.

If it's stock which is inherently based on usage, just hone your bull**** detector. If you catch them lying, tell them you can't give them a fair rate if they're not clear on what they want.

FWIW, I would suspect that most people who are shooting for publication very much take into account circulation and usage when doing quotes. Shooting weddings is an entirely different market of photography than shooting for, say, General Electric.

[amfoto1]

There are monthly, quarterly and annual publications that give highly accurate circulation figures for every major printed medium, based upon sworn publishers statements.

Check your library or online. If you know the publication(s) the advertiser plans to use, you should be able to find out for yourself the circulation.

For the daily newspaper industry, it used to primarily be the Audit Bureau of Circulation (ABC).

So, can you trust that info? Well, let's just say that ovre the years a few newspapers that have knowingly falsified their numbers ended up refunding millions of dollars in ad revenues, after a long, ugly court case.

I don't know if ABC also deals with magazines, weekly newspapers, etc. If not, then there are others providing that service, I'm sure.

If you have trouble finding this info, you might try to develop a contact at a local ad agency... Most of them subscribe to the circulation tracking services.

Also, the publishers statement is printed right in the magazine or newspaper, itself. It might be on websites, too. Any media that's part of a public corporation (sells over the counter stock) will have some circulation numbers on their corporate website, too.

Of course, this doesn't help with other types of printed advertising materials.... Brochures or posters or other point of purchase items, for example. These are based upon the press run. Here you just have to be careful writing up your contract. The photo buyer needs to tell you their intended press run, which you should include in your agreement. Then if you learn that they have exceeded the agreed number, you will have legal recourse to recover additional payment.

Web display is another thing entirely.

Get some books on pricing photography, selling stock and the business of photography.

It's not at all unusual for buyers to be very reluctant to give out the details of their budget. It's up to anyone selling stock photos to study their customers' businesses so you can do a reasonably good job estimating it. A national ad campaign in assorted media can easily run into millions of dollars for print space and air time alone (one 30-second ad on the Super Bowl is a multi-million dollar purchase). The creative part of the process... Acquiring the artwork and putting the ad together, are often the cheapest part of the whole deal.

Oh, and no matter how careful you might be, there's always a chance that you will sell something too cheaply. It happens. Just learn from it and move on.

As to those who don't respond, I bet some of them either have virtually no budget and were hoping to get micro-stock prices or are looking for a handout, so aren't real "clients" anyway...

Other possibilities are that your quote should have been better worded, or you didn't get enough info about the intended use before putting together the quote.

[tcphoto1]

All you can do is ask very specific questions about how the images are to be used and then put those details in your estimate. Once the deal is done and you find out that their answers were not accurate, you will have power to renegotiate a better rate. I try not to enter into a bad agreement but sometimes you need to police a new client.

[jamesb84]

Well, I think the best way to deal with a client who lies about usage is to write the usage exactly as discussed into the contract. If they claim 10,000 circulation and actually circulate 100,000, then having 10,000 written into the contract could be a serious legal liability to them. Of course, if you know ahead of time that they are not telling the truth, then you'd want to call them out on it -- it's always better to settle things ahead of time and not have to resort to a lawyer later.

If we're talking about publications (ie newspapers and magazines) here, then I've found that quite a lot of them tell you their circulation in their "advertising media pack" where they love to tell prospective advertisers how many people will read the paper...if the figure they're quoting you, and the figure they're giving prospective advertisers are wildly different, I'd question it, and possibly charge for the figure they're telling advertisers...since they're getting more money off them by telling them about their "huge circulation".

Failing that, in the UK we have something called ABC Circulation statistics which tell you truthfully what their circulation and readership actually is. I dont know if there's a similar thing in the USA.