Newbie question about 20D

[InskiP]

I'm brand spanking new to both digital photography and this board.
I just got my 20D a week ago and have taken both auto (various modes) and manual pics w/ it. All of them are jpegs because I don't really understand RAW yet. My previous camera was a Canon and I understand basic photographic procedures (exposure, depth of field, etc).

I want to make sure everything works on this camera and move deeper into the creative modes, so, what are the FIRST steps I need to take to learn RAW? I want to move beyond jpegs and basic modes. Where do I begin. I currently use Adobe PS 7 but will soon upgrade to CS2. Do I need to install all the software that came w/ my camera-EOS Digital Solutions 9.1 and Digital Photo Pro 1.5-if I will be using CS2? Basically, I don't want to install more software than I'll need. I've read the entire manual which tells you how to do things but doesn't go into much detail on why.

:confused:

Thanks in advance

[lomond]

No. CS2 comes with Camera Raw, which can process the raw files from your 20D.
Congratulations, great camera and a great forum you have joined.

Welcome

[glangston]

Digital Photo Professional is the Canon software that allows manipulation of RAW files. You will need to download RAW files from the memory card via card reader, they will not come straight from the card while in the camera. RAW just allows you to go back and change white balance, exposure, color and sharpness, as if you were shooting the same scene over.

[lomond]

I have not, as yet, used DPP.
I doubt it is better or faster than Camera Raw CS2.
I may be wrong. :?

[InskiP]

What do you mean by RAW alows you to go back and change white balance, exposure, color, sharpness, as if shooting the same scene over, etc???

Do you do this after the pic is taken, or, do you set it up beforehand? Like I said, I'm brand new to digital, but I understand basic photographic principals as far as obtaining exposure(w/film). Actually, I've taken manually exposed pics w/ the 20D as well. But RAW and managing my pics is something I don't quite get yet. The ways in which digital and film are the same I get, it's the parts that make them different that confuse me...am I making any sense??? I guess I need a good book that explains all this step by step. I want to get out of auto modes and jpegs but don't know where to start. Someone recommended Katrin Eismanns book Real World Digital Photography, but I'm reluctant to buy a book written in 2003 w/ how fast technology changes...thanks

[lomond]

Yes, you do all of the above and more in post processing.

[tim]

I strongly recommend this book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/032127878X/qid=1107482395/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-9127707-6895351?v=glance&s=books&n=507846), or if there's a CS2 version get that. The CS2 book will explain the bridge better, but after reading the version I linked to above I made the transition to CS2 easily.

[InskiP]

In the actual picture of the book it shows that it is for CS2.
Thanks for the reference, it appears to be what I'm looking for.

[robertwgross]

Some users do all of this stuff with Adobe. Others don't.

Personally, I use the Canon utilities for the RAW conversion. Once the RAW files have been copied to the hard disk via card reader, I get the Canon EOS Viewer or else DPP to view each RAW file as sort of an extra-large thumbnail. At that stage, you are able to view a histogram and see the shot settings. You should be able to view the file and tell if it is perfect or not. If it is perfect, then you don't need to muck around with it. If it is almost perfect, then you might tweak the controls that are presented on the side. This might mean tweaking the exposure to be brighter or darker, or more or less contrast, etc. You can fix up the white balance here if necessary. You can set the degree of sharpening necessary, although you probably will not see any results right away. Anyway, all of these tweaks are saved, even though they have not actually altered the RAW file. Then, when all tweaks and modifications are done, you can batch the conversion from RAW. Maybe you want them in TIF format, or maybe JPEG. The conversion will use all of the tweaks that you performed, and you can designate a directory where the results end up. For example, when I first transfer RAW files from my camera via card reader, I put them into CANON RECEIVING. When RAW files are converted, I put my TIF files into CANON 20D CONVERTED. You can name the directories whatever you want.

Suppose you look at a resulting TIF file and it is still too dark. Well, you can go back to the original RAW file and reset the "tweaks" to original, or you can further modify it with a higher exposure. It just gives you an extra chance to get it perfect.

If you really screw up the original shot, like by four stops of exposure, then you can probably forget about it. About two stops (one way or the other way) is as far as you can tweak a RAW file.

---Bob Gross---

[InskiP]

Actually, I may have to use the software that came w/ the camera temporarily until I upgrade to CS2. It came w/ DPP 1.5 and EOS digital viewer utility. What is the function
of each of these?

[robertwgross]

The function of those two utility programs is about the same.

They allow you to view a RAW file, tweak it, and convert it. I suppose you could use them for other than RAW files, but I don't see the sense in that.

My DPP version is now 1.6.1.0.

---Bob Gross---

[mvonditter]

Actually, I may have to use the software that came w/ the camera temporarily until I upgrade to CS2. It came w/ DPP 1.5 and EOS digital viewer utility. What is the function
of each of these?

Make sure that when you buy your CS2 that you go to the web site and load the latest patches for RAW and others. Adobe has updated all of their camera selections for Canon.

[InskiP]

Bob-

You're saying that the function of EOS Digital v.9.1 and DPP v.1.5 are the same, therefore, I just need to download one or the other rather than both???
When you say convert it, what do you mean? Like into a Photoshop (PSD file)?

[InskiP]

Someone recommended the book Camera RAW w/Adobe CS2. Is there any other great, easy to read books on digital photography that cover the areas outside general photography principals like white balance, color spaces, parameters, etc. Or, does the above mentioned book cover all that? Do you guys do polls here? Like the best digital photography books???

[robertwgross]

You're saying that the function of EOS Digital v.9.1 and DPP v.1.5 are the same, therefore, I just need to download one or the other rather than both???

Canon EOS Viewer Utility version 1,2,1,14 and DPP version 1.6.1.0 have roughly the same function, but there are small details different and a different user interface.

I have no idea what EOS Digital v.9.1 is.


When you say convert it, what do you mean? Like into a Photoshop (PSD file)?

RAW files really are not usable, by themselves. You can view them, but you really need to convert the file into some format that is a little more universal such as TIF or JPEG. In my opinion, PSD is usable, but it is not nearly as universal as TIF or JPEG. PSD is usable as an editing-only format.

---Bob Gross---

[sixshot]

I would have needed to ask this question in the future when I buy a 20D but your explanation is really useful Bob. Thanks.

[InskiP]

Why do I keep getting the cunfused guy on all my posts? I selected him for my first post but not every post. Just curious. not to say that I'm not confused...

[robertwgross]

I would think that if I were a real die-hard Adobe fan, then I would want to do everything in Photoshop starting with Adobe's RAW converter. But I'm not. I didn't even buy Photoshop CS until two months ago.

---Bob Gross---

[lostdoggy]

I'm not an expert but I recommend that you check out luminous-landscape.com it has alot of good howto essay as well as informative essay on the matter of RAW.

To reiterate what has been said already. RAW is like a perpetual roll of expose film (this anolagy is use only because you said you have knowledge of photography), like a expose roll of film you can change the outcome of the negative by changing the processing of the film. You can push or pull the film to correct the exposure and contrast of the film. RAW does one better it can be change over and over again and you get to see the result in real time.

I have never use PS CS2, but if the processing is anything like CS, its nothing to write home about. I presently use C1 Phase One Pro and I've tried RAWshooter (which is free right now). As a free program RAWshooter is not bad, but I prefer Phase One.

In another word RAW gives you a "Do Over" to salvage what otherwise a lose shot.

One last thing when you decide to play with RAW, Try to reserve post processing RAW to just Exposure and White Balance. Save the rest for PS. I prefer to post process into TIFF 16 when it comes to photos that I want to Manipulate in PS. It gives me greater room and a lostless conversion. I Use JPEG for snapshot and web uploads. Just remember that every time you open and save a JPEG file there will be lost of data or degradation of data.

And this my 0.02.

Congrat and happy shooting
Good Luck

Billy

[InskiP]

EOS Digital v. 9.1 is the viewer utility (disk) that came w/ my camera.
Okay, so which one should I use? Just pop one in and go..

I do know how to spell confused.

[Jesper]

EOS Digital v. 9.1 is the viewer utility (disk) that came w/ my camera.
Okay, so which one should I use? Just pop one in and go..

I do know how to spell confused.
The CD says "EOS Digital Solution v9.1" but that's not the version of the software, but the version of the CD itself.

Install DPP, it's newer, better (more features) and faster than EOS Viewer Utility.

[robertwgross]

Take a bunch of RAW files and transfer them to your hard disk.

Install both of the programs. Run the first program to tweak and convert the bunch. Store the TIF files in some directory. Run the second program to tweak and convert the same bunch. Store the TIF files in some other directory. Compare.

You will discover that you prefer the results of one or you might prefer the user interface of one. If you can't see any difference, then it doesn't matter.

De-install the one you don't like.

---Bob Gross---

[InskiP]

Thanks everyone for the explainations. I'm beginning to understand digital camera's and RAW... Thanks Billy for the comparison to film-that helped. Can't wait to get up tomorrow and play w/ my camera...

[aam1234]

If I were you I'd stick with jpeg for the time being. Once you feel comfortable with the camera and its functions then venture into RAW. That's just my opinion of course.