Apprenticeship Delehma?

[mutau052]

Ok so i have kinda gotten into shooting kids sports here in my area. There is one photography company that has all, and i mean every (every major little league soccer, baseball, football, basketball, lacrosse, every private high school and middle school), sports contract here in our city. Our city has 150k people, so his market share is huge.

We'll he contacted me and asked me to come in so we could "talk" (i have not over stepped any boundaries or stole his customers). His quote was "we'll see if i can help you, help me". So through a little google magic i looked him up and looked up his website and was very disappointed, his stuff is .... well junk. He stays in business because he is one of the only "studios" in our area and he's been there over 20 years, back when film was all we had to work with he could do studio portraits better than most (i believe because he had the gear), but now that were in the digital age i can look up almost any 16 year old with a rebel xt w/ 18-55 is, and one high school photo class on flickr that could give this guy a run for his money.

My problem is he owns the higher end printing here in town and his wholesale prices are kinda high (i use proDPI.com and don't want to use him), i just dont really want to brand myself with his logo or his pictures, but if i want to get any sports work here in our city than i really need to either work for this guy or find a new city.

What would you all do?

(Note this is a hobby for me, I have a great job so its not like i will not be eating if i don't do it, but i want to shoot sports here in town and make enough to support my photo addiction - my wife is supportive if i dont spend money on it hinting my gear.)

[Dennis_Hammer]

Is he a T&I shooter or action. You can shoot action and sell them with out the worrying too much as long as he doesn't have an exclusivity clause with any of the leagues that will keep you off he fields. If he is just contracted to shoot team and individual shots, make contact with some of the leagues and try to set up an agreement to shoot action shots and then donated back a portion of the 'NET' profits. But be careful if he has good contracts it may keep the leagues from being be able to deal with you.

[mutau052]

Is he a T&I shooter or action. You can shoot action and sell them with out the worrying too much as long as he doesn't have an exclusivity clause with any of the leagues that will keep you off he fields. If he is just contracted to shoot team and individual shots, make contact with some of the leagues and try to set up an agreement to shoot action shots and then donated back a portion of the 'NET' profits. But be careful if he has good contracts it may keep the leagues from being be able to deal with you.

already have tried this, there is no loop hole in his contracts. See these are huge leagues with 7-10k kids in the larger ones, and when they do tournaments (which i think is the best time for selling prints) his company is out there with there printing trailer. So it really makes it hard to gain any traction.

[WMS]

Questions
1) how long do the contracts with the local leagues and schools last?
2) would the various leagues and schools be interested in considering a different shooter?

The reason I am asking is that there might be an opportunity by working with him, Shoot for him while showing the leagues and schools just who is taking the better photos. Then when the contracts come up for renewal approach them on your own.
As for Branding yourself with his logos negotiate with him, perhaps you can shoot for him and use your own photo credits, he keeps the market, gets improved action photos and you still get part of the credit.

Could be a win - win situation, could be a loose- loose situation or something in between.

Wayne

[joedlh]

It sounds to me like he might be trying to nip potential competition in the bud be enfolding you in his business. Okay, maybe I'm being cynical; perhaps he seeks to encourage and mentor a promising new photographer.

The situation, as I see it is: he's got a smooth operation. Prints ready by the end of the game? That's a big plus -- photographic quality can be damned. Can you compete with this? If not, why not team up and give him and his customers the better quality shots.

As to taking business from him down the road, bear in mind that he may very well treat this as treachery after -- in his mind's eye -- he gave you a start. He will likely cut you off and may take off the gloves in competing with you.

[Nightstalker]

Do you have the capability to compete on a like for like basis with him - i.e. cover large tournaments and print onsite. If you can then go for it and bid against him when the contract renewals come up.

If you cannot, and I guess from your post that you can't as you are (by your own admission) a hobby shooter, then I would either work for him part time and negotiate the best deal you can - most likely a hourly rate - or back off and leave him to it.

He has after all invested heavily in his business and you with your limited kit obviously have not.

There is a lot more to doing what you want to do that just taking the pictures - some of the best photographers may never sell a photo whilst many average ones that build a business can make a good living out of it.

[zagiace]

Do you have the capability to compete on a like for like basis with him - i.e. cover large tournaments and print onsite. If you can then go for it and bid against him when the contract renewals come up.

If you cannot, and I guess from your post that you can't as you are (by your own admission) a hobby shooter, then I would either work for him part time and negotiate the best deal you can - most likely a hourly rate - or back off and leave him to it.

He has after all invested heavily in his business and you with your limited kit obviously have not.

There is a lot more to doing what you want to do that just taking the pictures - some of the best photographers may never sell a photo whilst many average ones that build a business can make a good living out of it.
I totally agree with this post.
You have to define what exactly you have that can compete. It sounds as if this studio is pretty much on top of things and keeping the clients satisfied. It is easier for the organizations to stay with him then to explore other options. Unless he screws up, you are going to have a tough time competing.
Keep in mind he has to make the organizers and leaders of the teams happy. Not just the team players and parents. Just providing quality photos and prints is a pretty small aspect of the business.
If you desire to handle a workload of this magnitude you are going to be jumping in to this full time.

[amfoto1]

Hi,

You need to find out more...

His work has gotten worse over the years? Maybe he hires out all the shooting and what you're looking at isn't his work at all.

Anyone that well established is going to know how to keep you from coming to work from them for a while, then going out and stealing their business. Hint... it's called a "non-compete" clause and will be part of the employment agreement you sign with him.

You also have to consider whether it's work for hire or you retain the copyright of the images you shoot. Working for him, I bet he ends up owning all the copyrights. Can you live with that?

First thing I'd do is look harder... There are bound to be some areas that he's not covering. I can't imagine he's actually got it all locked up.

Next, if you want to go head to head you will need to offer all the same services plus either better quality or better prices, without starting a price war that he'd more likely survive than a newcomer.

Finally, something to consider is that there are more and more people taking their own photos at these sorts of events. In a sense, your potential customers are now some of your biggest competition. When I started offering similar services 5 or 6 years ago, hardly anyone out there had digital SLRs or the knowledge how to use them. That's changed a lot in the last couple years. Now it's rare I go to even a small event where I don't see at least two or three parents shooting too. Sales have tumbled due to this and the economy. A good event now is one where I eventually see print sales that are half what I could expect 3 or 4 years ago. I don't see this improving in the future.

Now, I'm not saying don't do it. I've found other ways to leverage additional income out of the work, so am doing fine. Just be realistic and learn all you can, before you jump in all the way. A good way to do that is to work for an established company, but it can come with some limitations.

[mutau052]

I totally agree with this post.
You have to define what exactly you have that can compete. It sounds as if this studio is pretty much on top of things and keeping the clients satisfied. It is easier for the organizations to stay with him then to explore other options. Unless he screws up, you are going to have a tough time competing.
Keep in mind he has to make the organizers and leaders of the teams happy. Not just the team players and parents. Just providing quality photos and prints is a pretty small aspect of the business.
If you desire to handle a workload of this magnitude you are going to be jumping in to this full time.

this is really the truth behind this.

[DDCSD]

I'm curious, how many people does he have shooting for him? I can't imagine the army of photographers he'd need to have to cover an entire city of 150K.

[mutau052]

I'm curious, how many people does he have shooting for him? I can't imagine the army of photographers he'd need to have to cover an entire city of 150K.

This is part of my problem with him, he has the contracts and doesn't really take the opportunity to shoot anything other than kids sports portraits. I have a meeting with him on wed so I'll let you guys know how it goes. Maybe it will be positive, I just seem to think negativly about things like this.