Dark room & a red ceiling - what would you do?

[Rich_]

A friend got married last night. The reception was held in a large banquet room that was very dark (dance lighting) and had a deep red / maroon ceiling. Two of the walls in the room were natural brown/white colored stone. The other two walls were a combination of glass, stone, and drywall.

I took pics with my XSi and an on-camera Promaster flash that is similar in capabilities to a Canon 430 flash.

I wanted to use bounce flash for the pics but ran into a significant problem.

First, the room was so large that I mostly had to bounce off the ceiling since all the action was taking place mostly in the center of the room. Not surprising, since the ceiling was a deep red color, bouncing off the ceiling turned the pictures a deep shade of red. Here is an uncorrected example.

http://rgibbens.smugmug.com/photos/655229454_NiQCK-L.jpg

I shot in RAW and was able to partially correct this issue, but am generally disappointed with the pictures. Here's an example of a corrected pic.
http://rgibbens.smugmug.com/photos/654782837_jmVyU-XL.jpg


I eventually gave up and went with straight flash in order to get at least some decent pics. What would you have done? When using bounce flash are there methods to compensate for a deeply colored wall or ceiling?

[hawkeye60]

These could be vastly improved with some Photoshop adjustments.

[Cathpah]

These could be vastly improved with some Photoshop adjustments.

yep. A little white balance/hue adjustment and you can give the subjects proper skin tones.

The problem is, when bouncing light off of the red ceiling, it turns the light reddish, almost like gelling your flash with a red gel. So, when you adjust to make the skintones correct (taking out the reddish hues/cooling the WB), you will then cool the background down more than what'll look natural. Depending on how extreme this is, and whether you like this look (sometimes I'll do this intentionally with outdoor portraiture to change the feeling of the surroundings), you can either leave it....or do a separate layer adjustment to adjust the white balance of the subjects and background separately.

[Rich_]

hawkeye60,

I should bring up an additional point. I use Photoshop Elements 7 for post-processing, but, candidly, am not well versed in using it.

[Strayz]

you might also try shooting a grey card or white balance target, or use a custom white balance.

[egordon99]

Using a wide-aperture and high ISO can help in bouncing off of HIGH ceilings. I've shot rooms like this with my two primes @ f/2 and ISO800 and they came out pretty good.

[DerekW]

you might also try shooting a grey card or white balance target, or use a custom white balance.

Bingo, keep a white balance tool of some sort on you at all times. (hindsight is 20/20, you know)

[mahanee]

yeah .. use preset WB at location or shoot RAW and correct your WB later

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/2483/655229454niqckl.jpg

[Big G]

Whilst I understand and agree with all the comments about: shoot in RAW, use a white card etc.

Would using something like a Lumiquest Big Bounce? Pocket Bounce also have helped?

[Psychobiker]

No. The colouring of the walls/room are to fault here.

[Hermes]

No. The colouring of the walls/room are to fault here.

The big bounce/pocket bounce are direct flash modifiers and so would have avoided the colour cast of the ceiling.

Either way, the photographer is always the one at fault. You can't expect that every venue will be ideal and you have to have workarounds and contingencies for these sorts of problems.

This scenario highlights why you should have a full range of gels in your bag, especially if you don't have modifiers with you and are relying on bouncing for flattering light.

A Cyan gel would roughly neutralise the light bounced off the ceiling at the cost of a further couple of stops of light. A yellow gel would have given an end-result similar to a strong CTO which might be a better route if the room is already lit by tungsten. You could then fine-tune it with CTBs.

A grey card reading would have made white balancing in post a much simpler job, and with the speedlite properly gelled, the shift in ambient light colour would be minimal.

[Wilt]

You cannot bounce off deeply tinted ceilings, you throw off the entire color balance not merely a WB issue (blue-yellow axis). That is why even the balance of #8 post is still visibly wrong. You must avoid bounce of any type in that situation, lose the Stoffen or lose the Lightsphere and put the flash head straight forward, and use only local bounce (Lumiquest or white card) or small softbox.

[dustyporch]

Are you just shooting for fun here, or do you 'really' want to get good photos?

If you are serious... then I would have two suggestions.

1 - Off camera. Get a helper to stand to your side, holding the flash shooting into a shoot-thru umbrella, which is pointed at the subject. Both get as close as you can. This gives good light, and doesn't require the bouncing.

2 - On Camera. Again, get a helper to hold a large reflector to the side near the flash, and bounce into it.

Both are pretty attention getting, but what can you do???

Otherwise, do as others have suggested and just go with direct flash. Try to be as close to the subject as you can....

[martinsmith]

I recently did a shoot in a cellar with dark orange wall. Using off camera flash and shoot thru umbrellas still gave an orange glow over everything.

As I shot in raw this wasn't a problem. The key is (as others have pointed out) selecting the correct WB.

[dustyporch]

Yeah Martin, I was thinking after I posted that, depending on the ceiling height, shoot-thru might still cause a problem. A small portable softbox would help keep the light from bouncing around, but now we are talking even MORE equipment!

[Wilt]

The key is (as others have pointed out) selecting the correct WB.

Where 'warmth' vs. 'coolness' is concerned WB will help. Where color contamination (hue) is strongly skewed, WB is limited. It has to do with the color response when severely contaminated. Colors which are the complement of the contamination show up with insufficient response of the complementary color, and re-balancing to offset the low response is limited, which is why we cannot rid the pinkishness in the darker tones of the napkin while we restore the whitness in the highlight areas. Analogous to shooting under sodium vapor lamps, and trying to neutralize that, too.

[Rich_]

Thanks to all for the replies.

Generally, the replies have consisted of a) fix it in photoshop, b) gel my flash, c) don't bounce the flash - use straight flash instead, and d) try a custom wb on the camera.



I went back and used the white balance tool in the RAW editor in Photoshop Elements to get this result.
http://rgibbens.smugmug.com/photos/655373460_jfGsY-L.jpg

As can be seen, the skin tones are now acceptable. But the background has turned green. To my eyes, overall this looks much better than when everything had a reddish tint.

I'm going to go down the path cathpah's suggested and have a look at the layers capabilites of Elements.

[Emenresu]

Go b&w or apply a green filter, easy as heck

[Wilt]

Had you not bounced against the red ceiling, you would have ended up with daylight balanced subjects and tungsten balance background, which our brains find to be an easily acceptable combination. Since you had to balance for the red contamination, that created the greenish background similar to fluorescent bulbs. But then we don't expect to see greenish tint on candlelit tables, either!

[Rich_]

On another note, I saw the paid photographer doing something unique. He had a ring flash that he used for direct flash photography. He did not have the ring flash on his lens. Instead he held it in his extended left hand, aimed it straight at the subject and used it as a direct flash. He did this all night and it was the only flash I saw him use. The ring flash looked like this:

http://www.dcresource.com/images/news/pentax_092208/ring_flash.jpg

I'm not familiar with this technique and am very curious to see the pics he got during the reception.

[Rich_]

Had you not bounced agains the red ceiling, you would have ended up with daylight balanced subjects and tungsten balance background, which our brains find to be an easily acceptable combination.

I eventually gave up on bounce flash and went to straight flash. I don't much care for the very distinct look of direct flash, which is why I always try to bounce first.

Here's a typical example of the direct flash pics I got at this event. This is the groom's brother grabbing a candid shot with his camera.
http://rgibbens.smugmug.com/photos/654812610_J8zUF-L.jpg

[Wilt]

I eventually gave up on bounce flash and went to straight flash. I don't much care for the very distinct look of direct flash, which is why I always try to bounce first.

Here's a typical example of the direct flash pics I got at this event.
http://rgibbens.smugmug.com/photos/654812610_J8zUF-L.jpg


See, this shot is acceptable as is, the greenish background just begs for correction! (adding to your work)

[Rich_]

See, this shot is acceptable as is...

True, but I was hoping to get something more like the lighting in this picture. It just looks much better to my eyes.
http://rgibbens.smugmug.com/photos/641905959_9m2V9-L.jpg

[Wilt]

True, but I was hoping to get something more like the lighting in this picture. It just looks much better to my eyes.
http://rgibbens.smugmug.com/photos/641905959_9m2V9-L.jpg

In that case, you gel your flash with a CTO so that the foreground and background are much closer in WB, and you set the WB for 3400k while the background is 3200k, a bit warmer than the foreground.

[Hermes]

Thanks to all for the replies.

Generally, the replies have consisted of a) fix it in photoshop, b) gel my flash, c) don't bounce the flash - use straight flash instead, and d) try a custom wb on the camera.



I went back and used the white balance tool in the RAW editor in Photoshop Elements to get this result.
http://rgibbens.smugmug.com/photos/655373460_jfGsY-L.jpg

As can be seen, the skin tones are now acceptable. But the background has turned green. To my eyes, overall this looks much better than when everything had a reddish tint.

I'm going to go down the path cathpah's suggested and have a look at the layers capabilites of Elements.

Since your flash wasn't gelled to match the tungsten lights, they would have normally come out looking yellow/orange. correcting for the red ceiling the flash was bounced off has shifted the ambient towards Cyan. Yellow + Cyan = Green. Photoshop might be able to save the pics this time if you're willing to spend hours masking and correcting, but all it would have taken to get it right in camera is one or two little gels from a free sample book.

[Rich_]

Wilt,

To make sure I understand, your advice for correcting the color cast from bouncing off the red ceiling would have been to gel with CTO and set the WB at 3400k?

[Wilt]

Wilt,

To make sure I understand, your advice for correcting the color cast from bouncing off the red ceiling would have been to gel with CTO and set the WB at 3400k?

NO BOUNCE! NO BOUNCE!

Red ceiling!

Gel a direct flash with a CTO, use a softbox or a Lumiquest if you want to soften the source. 3400K or thereabouts on camera WB or, don't bother and shoot RAW and batch WB in postprocessing and be done with it.

[Rich_]

Since your flash wasn't gelled to match the tungsten lights...all it would have taken to get it right in camera is one or two little gels from a free sample book.

I initially started off with the flash gelled to match the tungsten light. Here's an uncorrected picture, with gelled flash bounced off the very red ceiling. The gel seems to have added an orange cast to the overall reddish color. In your opinion, what gel would have overcome this?http://rgibbens.smugmug.com/photos/656898247_zm2s4-L.jpg

[Rich_]

NO BOUNCE! NO BOUNCE!

Red ceiling!

Gel a direct flash with a CTO, use a softbox or a Lumiquest if you want to soften the source. 3400K or thereabouts on camera WB or, don't bother and shoot RAW and batch WB in postprocessing and be done with it.

Okay, I understand your advice now. Thank you.

[Hermes]

I initially started off with the flash gelled to match the tungsten light. Here's an uncorrected picture, with gelled flash. It added an orange cast to the overall reddish color. In your opinion, what gel would have overcome this?http://rgibbens.smugmug.com/photos/656898247_zm2s4-L.jpg

Well, in that picture your white balance doesn't look like it was set to tungsten. If it was, the orange tones (from the ambient and from the flash) would disappear and you'd be left with the red cast. You'd then need to add a cyan gel (no further changes to the white balance needed) to get rid of the red tones.

I don't want to complicate things even more, but you can make cyan in varying strengths by mixing CTB and plusgreen (two very common types of gel which everyone should have in their bags anyway).

[Rich_]

Well, in that picture your white balance doesn't look like it was set to tungsten.

It was set to auto wb in that pic.


You'd then need to add a cyan gel (no further changes to the white balance needed) to get rid of the red tones.

I've got a blue gel in my kit. I will try and get back over to the venue this weekend and shoot some pics with the blue gel and see if it removes the red color.

Thank you.

[Wilt]

I had to cool the photo WB and color shift in the green direction, then desaturate to get this...

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i63/wiltonw/WBcorrection.jpg

[Rich_]

I had to cool the photo WB and color shift in the green direction, then desaturate to get this...

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i63/wiltonw/WBcorrection.jpg

Wilt,

That looks pretty darn good. Based on what you've done here, it appears to me that I could bounce off that red ceiling and then modify in Elements to get pretty accurate colors. Now, I've got to work on improving my Elements skills.

Thank you for the example.

[Hermes]

It was set to auto wb in that pic.




I've got a blue gel in my kit. I will try and get back over to the venue this weekend and shoot some pics with the blue gel and see if it removes the red color.

Thank you.

You're welcome, but Cyan isn't the same thing as blue. You can make it by combining blue & green in equal parts. (Cyan is the colour the windows have turned in the image above that Wilt has corrected.)

What you really need to bounce off the ceiling in this instance is green - that will take care of the tungsten lights and the red ceiling in one. Mixing CTO and cyan will give you green, with the advantage that if you want to switch to direct flash, you can remove the cyan gel(s) and work with just the CTO.

[Rich_]

What you really need to bounce off the ceiling in this instance is green..

I've also got a green gel. I'll try that one too if I'm able to get back to that banquet room.

[dmeiselman]

Lightroom.

Elements is nice for organizing your point and shoot photos.
Lightroom is a tool, it literally took me 30 seconds to do this:

http://i36.tinypic.com/2hftf8j.jpg

and i'm sure I could do better if i invested a little time.
We assume the little flower on her lapel is white, tell Lightroom that the flower is color neutral, and it sets the white balance automagically. You can then fine tune from there (skin tones look better slightly warm, avoid greens, a hint of magenta is not terrible.

[Rich_]

Lightroom.

Elements is nice for organizing your point and shoot photos.
Lightroom is a tool, it literally took me 30 seconds to do this:

http://i36.tinypic.com/2hftf8j.jpg

and i'm sure I could do better if i invested a little time.

That looks pretty close to what I did in Elements with this same pic.
http://rgibbens.smugmug.com/photos/655373460_jfGsY-L.jpg

edit: I chose the wb tool in Elements and told it one of the plates on the table was white. It automatically adjusted the entire picture. I didn't warm it up or adjust the hue.

Thank you.

[mmahoney]

gel the lights, drag the shutter, and add a little zoom-zoom to distinguish you from the other Uncle Bob's.

[Wilt]

I still need to prove to you how damaged the color rendition is, even correcting for the red bounce off the ceiling!

[joeyprice]

That looks pretty close to what I did in Elements with this same pic.
http://rgibbens.smugmug.com/photos/655373460_jfGsY-L.jpg

edit: I chose the wb tool in Elements and told it one of the plates on the table was white. It automatically adjusted the entire picture. I didn't warm it up or adjust the hue.

Thank you.

I used the hue/saturation tool to remove the green/blue tint from the guys on the right side - took a tiny bit more than the the 3 click WB adjustment, but not much.
Greens saturation -100
Cyans saturation -100
Yellow Saturation -40
Master lightness +5

[Wilt]

I still need to prove to you how damaged the color rendition is, even correcting for the red bounce off the ceiling!



Here is a relatively benign color issue (discontinuity of CFL light) and how the colors are rendered differently even though the grayscale patches were all rendered neutral in post processing. Now imagine what strong contamination will do, where the spectrum discontinuity results from very biased color of the red ceiling, and how the color rendition is altered by that!
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=8688671&postcount=6