A few color management questions.

[kkamin]

1. I have a macbook and have decided to use sRGB for while until I learn more about
color management. Can macbook display the full gamut of sRGB on screen? (If
not, can Photoshop tell you if something falls out of the monitors display
capability?)

2. I want to calibrate my laptop screen the best I can. What I understand is that I
am not calibrating it to a color profile, but am just calibrating so it is
accurate piece of hardware, right?

3. How good is the calibration utility that comes with OSX? I'm going to get the
X-Rite i1 Display, is it worth it?

Is there anything else I need to know to get started. I want to keep things simple, use sRGB for now, have the things on my laptop look close to what my pro printer will give me.

[basroil]

1. I have a macbook and have decided to use sRGB for while until I learn more about
color management. Can macbook display the full gamut of sRGB on screen? (If
not, can Photoshop tell you if something falls out of the monitors display
capability?)

2. I want to calibrate my laptop screen the best I can. What I understand is that I
am not calibrating it to a color profile, but am just calibrating so it is
accurate piece of hardware, right?

3. How good is the calibration utility that comes with OSX? I'm going to get the
X-Rite i1 Display, is it worth it?

Is there anything else I need to know to get started. I want to keep things simple, use sRGB for now, have the things on my laptop look close to what my pro printer will give me.

1) no, not even close. if it's an old one, it'll display 72% or less of sRGB, newer ones can get close to 90
2) you are MAKING a color profile. calibration doesn't change your screen (unless you need to shift the whitepoint to zero it out, but you can't do that on a laptop anyway), it changes your profile to pretty much trick the screen into displaying accurate colors.
3) absolute garbage. it's software only, so it'll depend on how used to a properly calibrated screen you are. hardware (like spyder and xrite) calibrators are the way to go

[kkamin]

1) no, not even close. if it's an old one, it'll display 72% or less of sRGB, newer ones can get close to 90


Are these laptops acceptable to work from for color correction? It's amazing to me that they are not closer to 100%, since many people will be using macs for color sensitive work.

What kinds of displays can show 100% of the sRGB gamut? I've done some brief browsing online, but I haven't seen that as a tech spec, but I've seen a percentage for NTSC.

[basroil]

Are these laptops acceptable to work from for color correction? It's amazing to me that they are not closer to 100%, since many people will be using macs for color sensitive work.

What kinds of displays can show 100% of the sRGB gamut? I've done some brief browsing online, but I haven't seen that as a tech spec, but I've seen a percentage for NTSC.

Nobody uses macs for color sensitive apps, especially not laptops. For regular photo, it's fine, but if you are doing production video and color correcting it, you'll be using an EIZO or LaCie, or other high end monitor anyway.

Other than the 1k+ monitors, the other ones with a good gamut are newer IPS screens and PVA screens. 24" imac and 24"ACD have IPS, as do the 22" 2209WA (from dell, under 300 bucks) and u2410 (also dell, under 600). 2408WFP ( i have one, it's really nice, and cheap now too) is PVA and covers 110% NTSC and close to 100% of aRGB (which is harder to get good coverage for than sRGB, a few of the new IPS monitors above also do the same thing)

[tim]

Unless you're doing really critical color matching, eg matching to corporate colors, you don't need to see the full sRgb gamut - you just need the colors you do see to be accurate. Hardware calibration is worthwhile if you're doing your own color matching, or want really accurate color, otherwise if you just do a little for the web or use a good lab just let them do it.

[kkamin]

Unless you're doing really critical color matching, eg matching to corporate colors, you don't need to see the full sRgb gamut - you just need the colors you do see to be accurate. Hardware calibration is worthwhile if you're doing your own color matching, or want really accurate color, otherwise if you just do a little for the web or use a good lab just let them do it.

Thank you for your response.

One question:

When I calibrate my display what am I actually doing? ...I want to show sRGB accurately, so when I calibrate my monitor, am I calibrating it to sRGB specifically? And why are there so many calibration profiles for the display (when I go to preferences, there is a list of existing choices)? Shouldn't there just be one "accurate" profile that allows the monitor to display any ICC profile accurately?

confused...

[René Damkot]

"Hardware calibration" (iOne Display and such) allows you to do two things: First you calibrate, then you profile.

When you are calibrating a display, you are bringing it to a "pre defined, known state". Then you profile it: Creating an icc profile, so color managed software will know what to send to the display to display a color as close to "real" as possible.

As for the "showing sRGB accurately": You cannot see what cannot be displayed.

Here is an sRGB image, it's clipping in the reds in sRGB space. So there is R=255 in the image.

http://www.getcolormanaged.com/images/Blog/SavedForWeb_sRGB.jpg

This is the same image, within my PowerBooks gamut. (way worse then recent apple screens)
sRGB R=255 is way "redder red" then the maximum red of the Powerbook display.
So, no. That won't show sRGB accurately ;)

http://www.getcolormanaged.com/images/Blog/Screenshot_sRGBImage_Powerbook.jpg

From my blog post on save for web here (http://www.getcolormanaged.com/color-management/saveforweb/).

[mr2step]

I was going to ask these questions too. As with the OP, I too am using a 13" macbook glossy screen and am trying to set a monitor color profile for photo editing purposes. I send my pics out to a lab and they use sRGB for printing. Should I just set my screen to the sRGB profile or use generic RGB, or even Adobe RGB. While I am aware the adobe RGB has more colors, my lab only uses sRGB so should I just go with sRGB? i am in the process of buying a color profile management program like spyder, but was hoping someone could elaborate more on this because the more I learn, the more I get confused. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[basroil]

I was going to ask these questions too. As with the OP, I too am using a 13" macbook glossy screen and am trying to set a monitor color profile for photo editing purposes. I send my pics out to a lab and they use sRGB for printing. Should I just set my screen to the sRGB profile or use generic RGB, or even Adobe RGB. While I am aware the adobe RGB has more colors, my lab only uses sRGB so should I just go with sRGB? i am in the process of buying a color profile management program like spyder, but was hoping someone could elaborate more on this because the more I learn, the more I get confused. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Slightly wrong there... sRGB, aRGB, Pro Photo, etc have the same number of colors when in 8bit (jpgs, etc).
Just read THIS LINK (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=707058) for information on why and how to set up your system.

[kkamin]

I was going to ask these questions too. As with the OP, I too am using a 13" macbook glossy screen and am trying to set a monitor color profile for photo editing purposes. I send my pics out to a lab and they use sRGB for printing. Should I just set my screen to the sRGB profile or use generic RGB, or even Adobe RGB. While I am aware the adobe RGB has more colors, my lab only uses sRGB so should I just go with sRGB? i am in the process of buying a color profile management program like spyder, but was hoping someone could elaborate more on this because the more I learn, the more I get confused. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I'm the OP and would not recommend the consumer-grade Spyder for a macbook. It gave a dramatic yellow cast to the screen for some reason. At Amazon, there are a lot of reviews that echo that same problem. Although some people do have success with it, and if you do get it, you need to go to their website and download the "newer" version of the software, since the one they send to you doesn't let you change your White Point to 6500, it selects "Native" for laptops.

I'm not having much luck with the Pantone Huey either, there is a slight pink cast to everything. I'm going to send it back and try the Huey Pro. Inevitably I feel I am working up to a X-Rite Display 1, I'm just trying to resist spending $180 at this time.

For you monitor profile question. I believe the correct answer, is that you don't want to choose "sRGB" or "aRBG" for a monitor profile, they won't be accurate at all, and it is misleading that they are a possible option for a monitor profile. What you need is to create a monitor profile with a colorimeter or try to calibrate it yourself (though universally not recommended or 100% accurate). It doesn't matter what the calibrated profile is called, what matters is that your display is showing colors and contrast correctly.

You can edit your photos in whatever color space you want, but you'll need to convert your images to sRGB before you send them to your printer who works in sRGB. The sRGB profile you embed is like a code, it tells the printer how you want the colors to look, and since they have an sRGB profile for their printer, they can decode the color information and should be able to print it relatively close (screen and print will always be a little different--one emits light and one reflects light, respectively).

[mr2step]

Ok so say that I do not have a colourimeter to accurately calibrate my monitor. What pre-set "profile" should I use for my monitor? in other words, my Macbook comes with pre-defined monitor color schemes without having to change anything. Until I can get a huey, or spyder or whatever it ends up being, any suggestions? I am always making sure my images are in sRGB format since the printer can only print them that way. What's the point in editing them in adobe RBG and then having many of the tones clipped at the printer?
As for the Huey Vs. Spyder comment. I have seen the Huey down to around 50 bucks. I do not need anything fancy at this point. Just something to get me a baseline so that I can begin editing a ton of photos.
I had heard about the color tinting problems but then also read that it was a widespread type thing. Some folks had it, others did not.

[kkamin]

When you get a colorimeter, they recommend you recalibrate every 2 weeks, because the conditions of your display are in subtle but constant change. So even if you borrowed a colorimeter from a friend, a new profile would need to be created after a short time to keep your display in accurate, working order.

So the profiles that come with your mac are stagnant and unchanging, there is no way they are what you are looking for. The profiles (sRGB, aRGB, etc.) aren't built for you display anyway, to access them you need to uncheck the box that states "show profiles for this display only".

Good luck with the Huey.

[mr2step]

Hmmm. Ok now I am more confused. Why do they even bother putting color profiles on the Mac if they are useless then?

[kkamin]

Because most people use their computers to shop on Amazon and look at porn.

You want to do color accurate work and 99.5% of consumers don't require that from their computer. For them "close" is close enough.

[mr2step]

So you mean all this time I've been watching porn with the wrong skin tones? Damn!
Seriously though, it's crazy. You'd think there would be some info on this when the Mac comes to you. Instead it's just all pre programmed and ready to go. Not that I am against that by any means.
So I got one more questions, not to beat this to topic to death but when I finally get a colorimeter, is there a setting I should set it to to begin the calibration process? Like a default or something? I was reading an article earlier from another similar post re:monitor color and the article was saying that if you don't have a colorimeter to use a white point/gamma of about 6500K which is , in his opinion, equiv. to a sRGB format.

[tim]

I calibrate every six months, unless I forget. My prints look pretty much like my screen. I leave critical color matching to a professional color person at my lab.

[kkamin]

I can't fully answer your question, but I've researched color management some, since I initially started the thread.

Here is what I know, these are direct notes I took from a six-hour training series about color management and calibrating and profiling displays:

• Ambient lighting conditions are crucial

•White Point: D50 (5000K) for low ambient lit enviroments and D65 (6500K) for all
others. Exception, Apple Cinema display use ‘native white point.’

•Tone Response (often referred to incorrectly as ‘gamma’): For Mac & PC – use gamma
2.2 regardless of platform or what you are doing work wise. The exception is for Apple
Cinema Displays, use ‘native gamma.’

• Luminance: High as possible, with some head room to allow the display to age.
Luminance intensity is controlled by the backlight intensity of the LCD screen. Most
manufacturers did not explicitly create a backlight control, so you need to figure out if
‘brightness’ or ‘contrast’ controls the backlight. Reset the display, create a black matte
in Photoshop, adjust ‘brightness’ and ‘contrast’ on the display and whatever one adjusts
the brightness of black is the backlight control. Reset display again. Never touch the
control that isn’t the backlight control. Only use the control that adjusts the backlight
control of an LCD.

•Black luminous intensity is the amount of light produced when RGB values 0,0,0 are
sent to the display system. That’s why having low ambient levels is important.
Reflected light raise black luminous intensity and clobber contrast.

•If you divide ‘white luminous intensity’ by ‘black luminouse intensity’ you get the
contrast ratio for your display, which is a measure of dynamic range. At a minimum you
want a print contrast ratio of 250:1 or 300:1 for print. 400:1 or 500:1 for photography.

•Having the backlight set at maximum will not give room for age related dimming and
you won’t be able to compensate. You need to choose a somewhat arbitrarily lower
back light setting, giving you room to bump it up as the light dims, and you will know to
do this because you will establish a luminous intensity value and your display calibration
software will help you maintain it.

Controlling Your Envirnoment: Ambient Lighting

•Ensure consistent ambient lighting conditions for each member of a collaborative
workflow.

•Get ambient lighting as low as possible. Definetely be below 32 lux. High-end work
below 16 lux.

•Buy, rent or borrow a lux meter to check your viewing envirnoment.

•Windows are bad, bad, bad.

•Use neutral gray wall paint, preferably GTI’s spectrally neutral wall paint.

-------

If you get a consumer level colorimeter, don't worry about too much, they give you almost no options to change settings.

[ChasP505]

... Reset the display, create a black matte in Photoshop, adjust ‘brightness’ and ‘contrast’ on the display and whatever one adjusts the brightness of black is the backlight control.

Actually, you can use the OSD. Brightness/Backlight will dim the entire display, including the OSD. Contrast will dim all but the OSD.

Curious about what 6 hour training series you got this info from. I agree with almost all of it, but the last part about using a lux meter and gray wall paint is probably outside the scope of your average hobbyist. My wife rages because I keep closing the window blinds.

[kkamin]

I'm a member of Lynda.com, they have enough titles on photography and related things to keep someone busy for years. Here is the link for the color management series. It's rather dry, since you aren't watching someone demonstrate Photoshop techniques or anything interesting.

http://www.lynda.com/home/DisplayCourse.aspx?lpk2=317

[ChasP505]

Like anything, one has to take this "dry" information, choose what applies to your own situation and budget, and modify it as required. Experienced photographers and photo editors find what works best for them and stick with it.

If you understand the principles of color management and are comfortable with computers in general, you're off to a good start. You run into trouble and frustration when you get dogmatic or accept dogmatic advice from an "expert".

[kkamin]

Like anything, one has to take this "dry" information, choose what applies to your own situation and budget, and modify it as required. Experienced photographers and photo editors find what works best for them and stick with it.

If you understand the principles of color management and are comfortable with computers in general, you're off to a good start. You run into trouble and frustration when you get dogmatic or accept dogmatic advice from an "expert".

I think you need to do the best you can. The wall behind my work station is not painted neutral gray, so I am getting reflected light on my screen. I don't have a proper viewing station for prints with a "white" light. I shouldn't be trying to color correct 8-bit images on an laptop (6-bit device). I shouldn't be buying a $60 colorimeter and expecting too much.

That being said, the "dogmatic advice from an expert" isn't a strong, forceful opinion (dictionary definition of dogmatic), they are guidelines to follow based on the science of color management. The science behind it mind numbingly complex and I'm glad people have figured out how to get disparate devices to all respond to a similar reference point. The guidelines are obviously real and are not whimsical opinions, and the closer we can get to them, the tighter and more accurate our color management workflow will be. Of course technology changes and guidelines change with it.

But we shouldn't feel bad, inadequate, or frustrated if we can't have a $15000 setup in our den at home, but I think to do things well, and at a professional level requires a lot of work and spending a fair amount of money. But if you are just having fun and want to print nice pictures, you'll be close enough with what you said, understanding the principles and doing what you can. : )

[ChasP505]

...But we shouldn't feel bad, inadequate, or frustrated...

Thank you! I can now face the new day! :rolleyes:

[kkamin]

Thank you! I can now face the new day! :rolleyes:

I'm just glad you're no longer in the bathtub.

[ChasP505]

I'm just glad you're no longer in the bathtub.

No... I remembered to take my meds! No longer feeling inadequate!