Nikon Rumor: D3s next month, will this force Canons hand?

[RWatkins]

I post this relative to the Canon 1D Mark IV, not as a Nikon rumor per se


http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/27/nikon-d3s-with-1080p-video-rumored-for-release-next-month/

This sort of burst out of nowhere today, but word is that a new Nikon D3s will hit on October 15 -- the crew at NikonRumors puts it at "99 percent probability." The D3s is expected to add 1080p video and an odd 14fps frame rate to the D3, as well as a 1.6x crop mode, but other than that we don't know too much. We'll keep you updated, it looks like the leaks are coming fast and furious.


http://nikonrumors.com/2009/09/26/scratch-that-nikon-d3s-now-99-probability.aspx

Ok, rumors are flying fast this weekend – now I can say that the Nikon D3s has a 99% release probability. Still waiting on confirmations for the lens(es). Expected announcement date: October 15th, 2009.

As reported previously, some of the Nikon D3s “improvements” will be 14fps and full 1080p HD video.

[KenjiS]

Sounds interesting, Nikon really doesnt want to add resolution, and is apparently going for the best High ISO performance...But I still think a bump to 16mp or so would aid those persons who do a lot of cropping....

And ISO 102,400...Wow, just -wow-

14fps, Hmn...I wonder if there will be any restrictions on this, such as 12-bit only and MLU and manual focus required or some such, Nikon has done such things before on some of their cameras after all..if its real AF-capable 14-fps ill be impressed, But if its not, its another case of "On paper it sounds good...' like the 8fps of the D300s...

Definately makes me feel like Canon is going to shoot for at least 12 on the 1D Mark III....

On the video side, Sounds great, but Nikon's video quality has been consistently poor so far, even the D300s still suffers from the terrible rolling shutter and 5-minute time limit [Canon lets you record up to 4gbs, Which is about 10-12 minutes of 1080p footage iirc....]

Should also mention the 16-35 f/4G ED VR as well

http://nikonrumors.com/2009/09/26/nikon-af-s-nikkor-16-35mm-f4g-ed-vr.aspx

Does this mean we could see Canon's hand forced and them releasing an IS wide as well? a 17-40 f/4L IS USM? I'm not sure...Could be cool actually if they do [It might hurt sales of the 17-55 f/2.8 IS though..]

Then again, Nikon's wide end was always a lot better than Canons...Nikon has always trumped Canon in that area...Not saying Canon's wides are bad, But Nikon's are definately a lot better from what i've seen...

[woos]

Iso 102k. Lol. Funny because if it's really true then it means that Nikon is going for bigger ISO numbers for marketing like people thought that Canon was doing with megapixels lol. Different companies, same basic idea==let's make the numbers get biggah.

Still, if that is true then it probably means iso 12,800 will be usable. 14fps is cool but I bet there is a restriction on that. I almost wonder if that isn't something where they made it use an electronic rolling shutter for that mode, like is used for the movie modes. 14fps seems like it'd be pushing it for a full frame sized mirror. Either way, neato.

Wonder what the price will be? 12mp seems a bit lacking though. I know people love the high iso performance war but come on at this point lol. You can't really think that 12mp camera is goin to put out as detailed an image as a 18 or 21 or 24mp cam at low iso in good light which is where most shots are done.

[KayakPhotos]

I was reading through the comments on Nikon Rumors and it seems that Canon users aren't the only ones that aren't satisfied with their current bodies. There were multiple complaints about Nikon not coming out with a D700x with a higher MP count. I think that's funny when I look at all the people in the Canon camp who wish for a less MP, faster shooting, better focusing 5D Mark II. Just goes to show that none of us photographers can ever be satisfied. :)

[form]

If Nikon makes another 2-stop jump in ISO sensitivity and makes ISO12800 or even 25600 usable, it will be a really, really big selling point. Canon's latest high ISO options will feel even more inferior.

[picturecrazy]

I really wonder about these sky high ISO sensitivities.

It's hard to find a situation that F/1.4 and ISO6400 can't handle together. And anything darker than that.... wow, are you shooting bears hiberating in caves or something and don't want the flash to wake them up?

[RWatkins]

I was reading through the comments on Nikon Rumors and it seems that Canon users aren't the only ones that aren't satisfied with their current bodies. There were multiple complaints about Nikon not coming out with a D700x with a higher MP count. I think that's funny when I look at all the people in the Canon camp who wish for a less MP, faster shooting, better focusing 5D Mark II. Just goes to show that none of us photographers can ever be satisfied. :)

The grass is always greener on the other side.

[dave kadolph]

I really wonder about these sky high ISO sensitivities.

It's hard to find a situation that F/1.4 and ISO6400 can't handle together. And anything darker than that.... wow, are you shooting bears hiberating in caves or something and don't want the flash to wake them up?

Those of us that shoot in dark gyms or rinks and poorly lit fields get really excited about clean high ISO.

Depends on where the profession takes you I guess ;)

[KenjiS]

14fps is cool but I bet there is a restriction on that. I almost wonder if that isn't something where they made it use an electronic rolling shutter for that mode, like is used for the movie modes. 14fps seems like it'd be pushing it for a full frame sized mirror. Either way, neato.


http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/classics/nikonf3ver2/variations/f3hspeed/index.htm

Nikon did 13fps in that, But as said, Theres limitations, stop down metering, pellicile mirror, 1/1000 minimum shutter speed...

Of course Canon did 14fps...And people call a 1D bulky! :)

http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/classics/canonf1n/canonf1highspeed/index.htm

Slightly more advanced, But still pellicile mirrored, it does allow metering while shooting [Still stuck at 1/1000]

Trying to figure out the -fastest- normal mirrored SLR....I think its the EOS-1v, which did 10fps [9 with AI servo AF however ;)] The F6 and F5 are both 8fps.... [I'd like to mention i accidently ended up having to read a Ken Rockwell article searching for these specs, Wherein he referred to a EOS-1v as an "amateur" camera and then proceeded to be his usual assholish self]

I bet Nikon will do 14fps, And it will be a bit of a joke, Then Canon will drop the 1D4, Do 14fps and it will be an actual useful feature ;)

[AdamJL]

Is it just me, or does it seem that beyond a certain amount of fps, it's just diminishing returns? I mean, 14fps vs say, 12fps. The difference isn't as great as say, 6fps vs 8fps. And I feel for the photographer who has to sort through 210 images that he's taken in just 15 seconds!

Other than that, I can't say the D3s is as exciting as the D3 was when it came out. Definitely more evolution than revolution.

The big revolution, if it's true, is the f/4 zoom. Looks like they are really ramping up to compete with Canon in an area that they've had no presence (cheaper f/4 zooms), and if it's anything like the awesome 14-24, look out Canon!

[MDJAK]

F4 lenses are for sissies and wimps who can't carry or shoulder the load of an f2.8 or larger. ;) ;) ;)

I'm looking forward to seeing it, whatever "it" is. Should be at the Photoplus Expo coming to the Javits Center this October.

me

[dithiolium]

Owners of the D3 won't need a D3s.
Nikon is really milking dry their inhouse designed 12mp FF sensor. They may not be releasing higher mp due to lens limitations as well.
2009 is the year of mediocre Nikon products. Just re-use of existing materials and minor tweaks.
16-35 f4 VR? my friends would prefer a 17-35 f2.8 VR instead. But Nikon won't do it since they already have the 14-24. Nanocoating is making the lenses really expensive.

[foxesamu]

Owners of the D3 won't need a D3s.
Nikon is really milking dry their inhouse designed 12mp FF sensor. They may not be releasing higher mp due to lens limitations as well.
I mean, it's arguably the most versatile sensor on the market... wouldn't you? BTW it has only been around since 2007. The 6MP and 10MP CCD sensors were (and are) around for even longer. The D3000 is still using the same sensor from the D200, just with processing tweaks.

2009 is the year of mediocre Nikon products. Just re-use of existing materials and minor tweaks.
2007 and 2008 were revolutionary years for the company. What do you expect? The D400 and D4 are coming next year.

16-35 f4 VR? my friends would prefer a 17-35 f2.8 VR instead. But Nikon won't do it since they already have the 14-24. Nanocoating is making the lenses really expensive.
Most of the people on Nikon forums are excited for this lens. Landscape shooters don't need/want f2.8, but they do want edge-to-edge sharpness and not much light falloff; if the 16-35 has the same kinds of optics as the 14-24 it will be added to tons of bags. It's also an excellent walkaround range for traveling, and the fact that it's f4 means it won't be too big, making it even better for this purpose. Honestly, if it comes out it will be my next lens.

[KenjiS]

2009 is the year of mediocre Nikon products. Just re-use of existing materials and minor tweaks.


Eh, it has its ups and downs ;)

I agree, Nikon really hasnt done much..They updated 2 already very good lenses with new versions when i can think of one or two others that definately need an update more desperately, IE, the 24-120 VR and the 80-400 could both use a good upgrade, The 24-120 to put it more in line with Canon 24-105 IS and the 80-400 to match Sony's 70-400 and Canon's 100-400...

On the body front, They didnt do much either, D300s was a huge disappointment to me...and the D3s looks very "meh" as well....Nikon's video performance is still lacking and WAY behind Canon's right now...

I love the fact that everyone on the Canon forums is bitching about Canon jacking megapixels, and everyone in the Nikon forums are bitching about Nikon sticking to 12 megapixels ;) its hilarious

I do however find it very odd Nikon seems to be sticking to the 12 megapixel sensor...Perhaps this isnt Nikon's doing? Perhaps Sony is really screwing them over [Since Sony provides sensors for Nikon..] and trying to get Nikon out of the picture or hurt their market share to get more Sonys out there..Sony could be outright denying Nikon access to anything higher resolution right now...While I doubt Nikon is in trouble in the long term, They could be working on getting sensors from someone else or starting to develop them in-house...

And on the 16-35, I agree, its a fantastic sounding lens for people like me who dislike dragging tripods everywhere ;) I see people shooting crop and FF grabbing it in a heartbeat...

[Geoffery]

Nikon D3s isn't a rumour actually. Nikon Asia has already shown several beta units to photojournalists based in Beijing and Shanghai recently to gauge their interest. The condition to see those cameras was no one was allowed to bring their own cameras and camera phones along. The advance preview may be to get the feedback as well as possible reactions so Nikon could go back to the drawing board to tweak and refine the D3s better prior to the official unveiling.

[AdamJL]

I do however find it very odd Nikon seems to be sticking to the 12 megapixel sensor...Perhaps this isnt Nikon's doing? Perhaps Sony is really screwing them over [Since Sony provides sensors for Nikon..] and trying to get Nikon out of the picture or hurt their market share to get more Sonys out there..Sony could be outright denying Nikon access to anything higher resolution right now...While I doubt Nikon is in trouble in the long term, They could be working on getting sensors from someone else or starting to develop them in-house...


My theory comes down to printing.

Canon sell printers. It's in their interest to sell cameras that can produce finer detail in prints. If they can up the MP (which is a good thing for fine detail), and keep the same IQ, people might buy their printers.

Nikon do not sell printers. They have no incentive to push for finer detail in their prints; maybe they have a disincentive - why would they encourage purchasing of the "enemy"'s equipment?

[FlyingPhotog]

ISO 102K, huh?

Looks like I better wait on the body upgrade so I can finally take a black cat into a coal bin and get images which will make people ask if his name is Snow Ball... :rolleyes::lol:

[dithiolium]

Yup Nikon had stellar 2007 and 2009. Hope they will raise the bar again in 2010.
Its just their business model to trickle down a sensor to a multitude of products. Very predictable trend.
I foresee the 16-35 F4 VR to find its way to DX users as well (making them possible FF cam purchasers in the future). The biggest significance of this lens is Nikon's recognition of an F4 zoom product range.
We can expect lenses such as 24-135 F4 VR and 70-200 F4 VR in the coming years.

[dithiolium]

A few possible reasons Nikon sticking to 12MP.
1. Their design teams based around sensor design (10MP CCD, 12MP CMOS DX, 12 MP CMOS FF) trickle down from prosumer to entry level. Note that with every trickle down, they refine the image processing.
2. Lens limitations
3. Focus on photographer-centric features and ergonomics, rather than MP marketing hype.
4. Sony 14.6mp DX not up to their standard.
5. Cheaper to contract purchase same sensor in bulk, entry level cams become with 12MP CMOS have higher profit, and entry cams are the majority of sales.

I doubt D400 can continue the 12MP winning streak. The new sensor should start another cycle of trickle down product range, ending with another D400s. I'd expect 15/16MP.
12MP FF was Nikon's inhouse design. Its time for the design team to unveil their new baby!

[jackies35]

I was reading through the comments on Nikon Rumors and it seems that Canon users aren't the only ones that aren't satisfied with their current bodies. There were multiple complaints about Nikon not coming out with a D700x with a higher MP count. I think that's funny when I look at all the people in the Canon camp who wish for a less MP, faster shooting, better focusing 5D Mark II. Just goes to show that none of us photographers can ever be satisfied. :)

Thank God for that! I thought only us Canon Users were unsatisfied! I thought Nikon users were Happy & Delights... I started to jump ship on Canon from all the complaints, disappointment from users, and pros!!

note: I am a beginner.... I didn't invest too much in Canon!!

[foxesamu]

Eh, it has its ups and downs

I agree, Nikon really hasnt done much..They updated 2 already very good lenses with new versions when i can think of one or two others that definately need an update more desperately, IE, the 24-120 VR and the 80-400 could both use a good upgrade, The 24-120 to put it more in line with Canon 24-105 IS and the 80-400 to match Sony's 70-400 and Canon's 100-400...
Another interesting rumor is that an AF-S 100-500 f4-5.6 VR is coming at PMA 2010 to replace the 80-400. Of course, it would probably be a LOT more expensive and bigger than the 100-400L, so it's a mixed blessing.

On the body front, They didnt do much either, D300s was a huge disappointment to me...and the D3s looks very "meh" as well....Nikon's video performance is still lacking and WAY behind Canon's right now...
I agree that the D300s is just "OK," and they need to keep up with video, but the D3s is really exciting to me, if only because it goes up to 12,800 in its native range. That's just ridiculous if true. I don't really know why some people in this thread are making fun of it, because Canon will no doubt include it in the next 5D also.

I do however find it very odd Nikon seems to be sticking to the 12 megapixel sensor...Perhaps this isnt Nikon's doing? Perhaps Sony is really screwing them over [Since Sony provides sensors for Nikon..] and trying to get Nikon out of the picture or hurt their market share to get more Sonys out there..Sony could be outright denying Nikon access to anything higher resolution right now...While I doubt Nikon is in trouble in the long term, They could be working on getting sensors from someone else or starting to develop them in-house...
I'm not surprised and I don't think there's anything sinister going on. Like I already mentioned, the 6 and 10MP sensors were kept around for even longer. Also none of the bodies using the existing 12MP have even been replaced--the D4 and D800 will presumably have 14-16MP. The D3s and D300s are not replacements, just mid-cycle updates like the 1D Mark IIn.

BTW--as dithiolium pointed out--the 12MP FF sensor was designed by Nikon. AFAIK only the 24.5MP sensor was designed by Sony, but Nikon made it better; I think the DX 12MP is manufactured by Sony.

[Geoffery]

BTW--as dithiolium pointed out--the 12MP FF sensor was designed by Nikon. AFAIK only the 24.5MP sensor was designed by Sony, but Nikon made it better; I think the DX 12MP is manufactured by Sony.
CORRECTION: Both 12MP and 24.6MP FX sensors for Nikon DSLRs are indeed designed by Nikon in-house but contracted to Sony for the actual fabrication and manufacturing.

As for Nikon's style of putting an S prefix to its enhanced line-up of DSLRs, this is because sales of new DSLRs slow down after 12 months, and Nikon probably has plenty of those 12.1MP sensors in its inventory, and need to come up with something new to clear the stock before it can release any new DSLRs with higher MPs.

Nikon won't have this problem if it could manufacture those sensors in-house as the production facility can be adjusted to make any type of sensor anytime it wishes but this is not the case at the moment.

The amount of sensors made by Sony on behalf of Nikon is forecasted in advance - it is not a case of "When I need it only then you make it for me".

The D700 is the by-product to utilise the leftover sensor of the D3. The arrival of the Canon EOS 5D Mark II and Sony's Alpha a900 put paid to the idea of the D700 using up the inventory of excess 12.1MP sensors as forecasted by Nikon.

Similarly, if Nikon could make the sensors in-house, the D3x won't have an MSRP of US$8,000 but with the limited quantity ordered from Sony, it can't hope to have the best prices on the chips.

[foxesamu]

CORRECTION: Both 12MP and 24.6MP FX sensors for Nikon DSLRs are indeed designed by Nikon in-house but contracted to Sony for the actual fabrication and manufacturing.
I believe you, but I'd love to see a source/official info behind this, because it is a little fuzzy--everyone has a different answer.

As for Nikon's style of putting an S prefix to its enhanced line-up of DSLRs, this is because sales of new DSLRs slow down after 12 months, and Nikon probably has plenty of those 12.1MP sensors in its inventory, and need to come up with something new to clear the stock before it can release any new DSLRs with higher MPs.
But is this the same reason they came out with the D2hs, D2xs and D70s?

[KenjiS]

Another interesting rumor is that an AF-S 100-500 f4-5.6 VR is coming at PMA 2010 to replace the 80-400. Of course, it would probably be a LOT more expensive and bigger than the 100-400L, so it's a mixed blessing.


I heard about that..Theoretically, it could be about the same size as say..the Sigma 150-500, So it wont be that much larger or anything...and the extra range would be very cool :)

But expensive, Yeh, I'd bet you it ends up at $2500...

I love it when Nikon users always throw their 200-400 out as an alternative to the 100-400, Its just not...