model wants more

[woodsters]

So I had this shoot of 2 girls in the same shoot. They did some photos seperatley and some together. When we were planning the shoot I sent them an email of what to expect. I forgot to add in the original email that they would each receive 10 photos (more could be arranged). But I sent an additional email stating that. After the shoot the one mentioned that she got the email about the 10, but she wanted them all. I told her 10 was the norm, but i'm not a stickler to it. I told her I would have the photos online and how to get to them to review them. So I get them online and send them an email letting them know. I get a reply from her that she wants all the proofs. I replied back to her and told her again the norm was 10 but I would let her have 20. She replies back that she has picked out 16 of the 20 I told her she could have, but in addition she wanted all the ones of another look/outfit (about 45 photos).

Am I wrong in this?

[EmmaRose]

Her liking them and wanting more is a good thing, right? I'm not sure why you're not willing to send more, as long as you don't have to spend any money printing them or time editing them i don't see the issue.
Juts tell her to keep it quiet so you don't get requests like that all the time, but imo no harm done with sending more pics than previously agreed.

[woodsters]

She's being very pushy...after we finish shooting she tells me she knows that I said only 10, but that she wants all the proofs. I told her no, but i could probably give her more than 10. Then after I email telling her how to get to them, she emails me back and again says she wants them all. Then I tell her no she can pick 20 and she picks over 60 that she wants and something about her publisher. lol

And she is wanting proofs (raw images), not touched up photos. Plus the fact that I told her friend that was shooting with her not to bring her boyfriend because I a small daughter in the house and feel uncomfortable with it, she brings him anyway after she told me she wouldn't. I almost stopped them at the door and told them it was not what we agreed upon, but since my wife was home, I went with it.

I've given more photos than that to models and have even given one a RAW CD, but it all played upon their attitudes as well. But they are all told up front about the 10 and some more MAY be possible.

[reddragon]

stick to your guns and just say 20 images
def no raw images
and why would she be talking about a publisher you own copywrite so she cant get them published with out your ok
was this a tfcd shoot or did you pay them
all sounds a bit cheeky to me

[woodsters]

Was a tfcd shoot. I had replied to her and told her that I surveyed the industry and was middle of rhe road figure and actually on the high side. I told her that I would query my fellow photographer friends on this. And then I asked who the publisher was and maybe I could talk to them and come to some sort of agreement. I get a reply back and now after "talking to her publisher" the number is 23, which I will probably go ahead with. If she wouldn't of been so demanding I would of been a lot easier with it. And then she goes and takes one that I edited and put on my port and puts it on her port. The nerve.....

[CliffordPhotography]

Your talking a MM model correct?

If she has a "publisher" stick to your 10. She can buy the rest.

[Cosha]

Hi Mr Woodsters,

sounds like she is up to some tricks ;)

If you got the model relase and both parties agreed on 10 images, she has already got another 10 free!

If she still is being a pain, put your wartermark BIG over the whole lot (can get this free online) and send her the whole set

did the edit on your port have your water mark on?

[Grimage]

She's being very pushy...after we finish shooting she tells me she knows that I said only 10, but that she wants all the proofs. I told her no, but i could probably give her more than 10. Then after I email telling her how to get to them, she emails me back and again says she wants them all. Then I tell her no she can pick 20 and she picks over 60 that she wants and something about her publisher. lol

And she is wanting proofs (raw images), not touched up photos. Plus the fact that I told her friend that was shooting with her not to bring her boyfriend because I a small daughter in the house and feel uncomfortable with it, she brings him anyway after she told me she wouldn't. I almost stopped them at the door and told them it was not what we agreed upon, but since my wife was home, I went with it.

I've given more photos than that to models and have even given one a RAW CD, but it all played upon their attitudes as well. But they are all told up front about the 10 and some more MAY be possible.

I see what you mean now! At first I thought why not indeed... but then you described a greedy persona therefore I fully understand you... and tell her to get freebies elsewhere.

[woodsters]

No, the edit didn't have a watermark on it, they will now in the future. That part wouldn't of bothered me if she wasn't trying to scheme up other things. I replied back to her and told her that I was going to let her have the 23 until it was brought to my attention that she stole the edited photo from my port and placed it on hers as well as her Myspace. Told her to narrow down the list to 20 and consider the stolen one a freebie. Also advised that I assume she will need a copyright release on the rest to use them and reproduce them or she would be violating copyright laws. And that I would gladly include it on the CD with the photos. Also told her that if she didn't narrow it down to the 20 herself, that I would do it for her.

[EmmaRose]

Well if you don't want to work with her again then don't give them :)

[cdifoto]

I would tell her that since she stole the one and is being so pushy, the 20 is now back to the original 10.

[bbulldog]

this is all very suspect on her part, do you know if this was a first time shoot with her? sounds like she has no idea of what its all about.

hope you have a signed contract with her.

Hope she does not start spreading bad things about you, even if they are not true it can put people off using you.

I wonder if pros have problems with squabbling little girls hahahaha

[Stickman]

I would tell her that since she stole the one and is being so pushy, the 20 is now back to the original 10.



With one stolen, the way I look at it is to default back to the arrangement which started, which is ten. In my mind that means 9 + the stolen 1....

Giving extra is only going to show you are a push over, which means her boyfriend/ publisher is going to try to use them regardless of copyright.

Hold your ground.

[woodsters]

Oh man it all even gets better! I wake up today to an email from her saying that as far as copyright laws that she has all rights to her photos. And also she said that all she signed was a piece of paper with her name and address on it with the words model release on it. Apparently she failed to read the paragraph between those two sections. Then she says that she has the rights to the photo I placed on my profile because it's a photo of her. So I explain to her no she has no rights to any photos until I give them to her with a copyright release. I asked her if she read the model release she signed where the last line of the paragraph states..."All negatives and positives, together with the prints shall constitute your property, solely and completely." I asked her if she has signed model releases with other photographers and read them because they are merely not contact information forms.

Anyway, since she thought she had the rights to her photo that she took off my profile, I contacted MM and they removed it after sending them a scan of the model release she signed. They agreed with me and thus removed the photo. I've contacted Myspace and they have sent me an email with what I need to do with them. I'm not trying to be a butt about it. But I won't be pushed around like that. I hope this turns into a valuable lesson for her. I know it has me changing some things that I do, even though I have been in the right.

[bbulldog]

Well Brian you did your best to sort things out far beyond what you needed to do and she did not sccept, its now tough on her.

[hawk911]

Brian, I'd stick to your original agreement but either way never give her raw files. Any files she gets for the web should contain a watermark or logo.

[AxxisPhoto]

Your talking a MM model correct?

If she has a "publisher" stick to your 10. She can buy the rest.

+1. Or you can charge her to shoot again.

[leeport]

If she's being this way, tell us her name so we can be sure to avoid her in the future. And you are not being a butt. You're in the driver's seat. You're the photgrapher, the owner of the images. This girl has nerve. It was a tfcd shoot and she is "trying" to take advantage of you. Stick to your guns. We are behind you 100%

[Mick_I]

At least you have a release, next thing to do is register all your images you shared with her to copyright.gov (http://www.copyright.gov) it's only $35.

[woodsters]

At least you have a release, next thing to do is register all your images you shared with her to copyright.gov (http://www.copyright.gov) it's only $35.


Looking at the copyright website, you don't have to register to be covered...

[harroz]

no, you don't have to register your images to be covered by copyright.

This chicks got a nerve, as soon as she mentioned publisher I would have mentioned $$. NEVER give raw files. period. ever.

stick to your guns, if you say 10 then do ten, if there's 11 then give 11, but never SAY 10 or more.

I'm glad you got her to sign a model release!

[pwm2]

Give here a couple of extra pictures besides the ten. Maybe 13-14.

If she wants to, let here see more photos but only with heavy watermarks on them. Don't ship raw, unedited picutres so have her pay extra if she wants any of the watermarked pictures.

[woodsters]

I gave her the 20 I told her I would let her have... all of them have my signature on them...

[pwm2]

Remember the difference between your signature and a watermark. This chick may decide to crop the photo to remove the signature and then try to sell the photos. Not sure what rights you are giving here regarding use of the photos.

[RDKirk]

Looking at the copyright website, you don't have to register to be covered...

True, you technically own the legal copyright without registering, but that's like buying an expensive bicycle and leaving it unlocked on a big city streetcorner without registering it--the law isn't going to do a thing to help you if it's stolen because you can't prove to the satisfaction of the court that it was yours. The court won't even hear a case without registration.

In this case of just dealing with a recalcitrant model, it's sufficient just to know one's legal position, but in a real case of infringement when significant money could be at stake--if you haven't registered you will be out of luck.

[woodsters]

I think it's ludicrous (sp?) to spend $35 everytime you shoot someone to register the photos...

[RDKirk]

I think it's ludicrous (sp?) to spend $35 everytime you shoot someone to register the photos...

You can register hundreds or even thousands of unpublished images in a single submission for $35, as long as they fit into a logical "collection" such as "My Images from 2008."

If the images have already been published, you're limited to a measly 700 images per submission.

Many busy commercial professionals just send bundle up their work every three months and do quarterly submissions. A three-month periodicity uses the copyright grace period rules to protect anything during that period even if it had already been infringed when they submitted the registration.

[epatt250]

I would give her 5.

I typically guarantee 5 images on TF stuff.. but I also tell them that if I decide I like 9 and want to spend the time editing 9 then I will give them everything I edit. So they get 5.. or more depending on what I feel like is worth editing.

I do not give unedited files ever and nobody has offered me enough money yet to change my mind.

[woodsters]

I think it varies in location as well from photographer to photographer. I've heard of local photogs giving them the whole CD and i've heard others doing about what I do...I'm thinking of breaking away from the TF stuff some...I mean it's a hobby...it's not going to break me if no one wants to shoot. Now if I get a Playboy type that wants to do TF, then by all means...

[epatt250]

You are right, it will vary. The worse my port was the more images I gave. B/c honestly I needed them.. the more I have, the less I give.

Local photogs around here are for the most part pretty pathetic. At least the ones making the rounds with the models who are not signed to agencies. There are a few decent guys, but 90% suck.

So the way I look at it is quality over quantity. Joe Blow gave you 20 images.. ok I well I will give you 5 and these wont actually suck. If you dont like it, go shoot with Mr Blow.

I am getting to the point where I really just want one good image for my port if I am doing TF. I try to shoot with people with the same goals. Girls who already have excellent ports and also hope to bring one great image home from a shoot. I have quite a few girls that want to do TF that I have told them no, but that I would keep them in mind. If something comes up and I need someone last minute I will consider one of those girls, and give them the 5 images, but for the most part I dont shoot many new ones. If I have a really great project and want to make it happen then I will use someone I have a relationship built with and that I know can bring it. Just like you, I have a family and I dont want to just blow my time. So if a newcomer comes along and has a horrible port, and I dont see her fitting into my stable of goto girls with a little polishing.. I offer my rates.

[kenwood33]

i think you are doing way too much - just edit the 10 you promised, send the rest to them in web resolution, and ignore any future emails from her

[nemo man]

Get another model. Life is too short.

[reneethomas]

OMG I cannot believe what I am reading. I would think a model would be a bit more versed in this area.

Recently I had this problem with an average citizen where I took a photo of a "Tea Party". It was a public protest on public land. I needed no release.

Well because I took the photo of this fellow and his wife he felt that HE owned the image and he submitted MY image to a local newspaper to be printed on the front page. I was not paid, not given credit, not asked permission, nothing. The person has never apologized and is still adamant that he is in the right that because I took the picture of him that he owns the rights to the image!! :mad:

[asysin2leads]

I really don't understand why we're shocked when people steal our images. They have no issue with stealing thousands of dollars of music off the web. What would stop them from stealing our work? BTW, it pisses me off when people steal my work, too, and yes, it's happened and was dealt with.

OP, I'm sorry that you had to go through all this crap. I would have given her 10 and that's it. That's what she's entitled to. She has some nerve thinking she can push you around. This is a learning experience.

[Mark1]

I think I missed why you dont want to give more than the 10. I understand 10 is your agreed amount. But why the refusal to give more? Dont get me wrong, Im on your side here all the way. Just wondering what your reasoning for not allowing more was. If I understand this right, you are new to this area of Photo. I would think you want to get out everything you reasonably could.

[RDKirk]

I think I missed why you dont want to give more than the 10. I understand 10 is your agreed amount. But why the refusal to give more? Dont get me wrong, Im on your side here all the way. Just wondering what your reasoning for not allowing more was. If I understand this right, you are new to this area of Photo. I would think you want to get out everything you reasonably could.

A couple of reasons for me:

1. The images I selected would have been the ones I felt best represented my work.
2. The more images would mean more editing time spent on the task working on images I didn't like in the first place. I would never send anything out without some level of retouch.
3. With regard to "getting out everything," that is only profitable in terms of increasing the number of clients, not increasing the number of (poorer quality) images given to a client.

These are the same reasons I would not hand over all the images of a session to even a paying client.

[Mark1]

A couple of reasons for me:

1. The images I selected would have been the ones I felt best represented my work.
2. The more images would mean more editing time spent on the task working on images I didn't like in the first place. I would never send anything out without some level of retouch.

100% with you!

3. With regard to "getting out everything," that is only profitable in terms of increasing the number of clients, not increasing the number of (poorer quality) images given to a client.

This one I am only 50/50 on. If there are only 10 good ones, I totally agree. Why give out less than perfect? However what if there are 20 good ones? Do you not edit them because you have done your quota of 10 ? I most likely will end up editing them if they are worthy. Even if they are edited for only selfish reasons. You never know what people will or wont like. So I would think you would want as many available for people to see,(to a point) if for no other reason than to try to catch their eye with one of them. The exact situation from, the OP I do not know. If she wanted them just to hang on her wall, then nobody will see them and I would refuse as well. But if there were to be in a place where they could generate at the least a inquiring phone call/email it might be worth it.

[basroil]

OMG I cannot believe what I am reading. I would think a model would be a bit more versed in this area.

Recently I had this problem with an average citizen where I took a photo of a "Tea Party". It was a public protest on public land. I needed no release.

Well because I took the photo of this fellow and his wife he felt that HE owned the image and he submitted MY image to a local newspaper to be printed on the front page. I was not paid, not given credit, not asked permission, nothing. The person has never apologized and is still adamant that he is in the right that because I took the picture of him that he owns the rights to the image!! :mad:

Easy, you send the newspaper an invoice with your licensing fee for the image (plus misuse fee). They are the ones who replicated your image, so if they really feel they should not be charged, they will in turn send the guy a bill. You'll get your apology then.

[korrektor]

funny, I had lots of models doing the same thing to me. "Give us all the RAWs and all that crap..." I was even threatened to be sued by one of the misunderstanding moms... stick to your guns. dont' give out raws, don't give out anything beyond your agreement. This is a good lesson to you and next time you will STRESS to a model the number of photos you will deliver. I give out at 3 for TFP and however many I feel like afterwords. But those 3 will be worth their while. If they don't I usually offer a reshoot.

[Hedley]

Brian,

I think you deserve a round of applause for following this through and sticking to your guns.
I had a similar problem where pics started appearing on facebook/myspace etc and it's a real pain to rectify.
I find it hard to judge sometimes whether or not the problem is ignorance on their part, or they are just cheeky sods.
Every time a 'model' tries to pull a fast one like this it encourages similar behaviour I believe.

And as for talk of a publisher! Surely they'd be getting her so much paid work, she wouldn't have to take TFCD jobs....?
;-)

[Grimage]

on this copyright topic... is there any way that you can search the net for your pictures... so you can have a better control of your copyright? I thought I read about it somewhere.

[Pete W]

on this copyright topic... is there any way that you can search the net for your pictures... so you can have a better control of your copyright? I thought I read about it somewhere.

I am sure there is a piece of software that does this... Just can not remember what it is called...


Found this one

http://www.tineye.com/faq

[Grimage]

I am sure there is a piece of software that does this... Just can not remember what it is called...


Found this one

http://www.tineye.com/faq

Thanks a bunch! I remembered reading about it but I havent given it a try.... Thx again:)

[woodsters]

I think I missed why you dont want to give more than the 10. I understand 10 is your agreed amount. But why the refusal to give more? Dont get me wrong, Im on your side here all the way. Just wondering what your reasoning for not allowing more was. If I understand this right, you are new to this area of Photo. I would think you want to get out everything you reasonably could.


Number one reason why I didn't give her more was because of her attitude. I've given others 20, 30, and more...it all depends on attitude.

Last couple I shot since then, were great girls. I told them to pick out as many as they want. They were kind and didn't go over 12 or 13....

[Mark1]

Number one reason why I didn't give her more was because of her attitude. I've given others 20, 30, and more...it all depends on attitude.

I can totally understand that!

[coalcliff]

I had a TF shoot this week and she decided she liked 90 of the 180 frames from the shoot...arrrgghh, she will get the best, whether that is five or ten I have yet to decide.

Brain, you never had this trouble with your lovely wife did you!

[RDKirk]

Number one reason why I didn't give her more was because of her attitude. I've given others 20, 30, and more...it all depends on attitude.

Last couple I shot since then, were great girls. I told them to pick out as many as they want. They were kind and didn't go over 12 or 13....

Preparing more images is more unpaid work. Whether one wants to do more work for nothing certainly does depend on how one feels about who the work is for.

[Jeff Colburn]

Nice nightmare you have there. What I have done is state how many prints I would give the model, and the price for additional prints. And I wouldn't give out a raw image, ever. It's like giving away a slide or transparency. Stick to your guns, and good luck.

Have Fun,
Jeff

[locky]

Here's my take on this.
1st - You had a signed contract. Should have stayed with just the 10 and sold her the rest if she wanted.
2nd - Since they are proofs you should of put your watermark in the middle of the picture.
3rd - Looking at it from the Models view. Since the girls do not know you and the one model asked if she could bring her boyfriend along and you said no. Well They probably should have canceled the shoot. You said you had your Daughter at home and you did not feel comfortable with the guy coming along. If that is how you felt then It was your responsibilty to make arraingments for your Daughter to be at a babysitters or a friends house during the shoot.

[woodsters]

Here's my take on this.
1st - You had a signed contract. Should have stayed with just the 10 and sold her the rest if she wanted.
It depends on the model. If they are good to shoot with and the shots come good, then I have no problem with letting them have more. I'm still learning to enhance my photography as well as PS work.

2nd - Since they are proofs you should of put your watermark in the middle of the picture.
On my site where they look at the proofs, it automaticall puts "PROOF" across the image. The issue was that she took an image off my MM port that I had processed and placed it on hers without asking. That is stealing. At the time, I did not have my name or anything on the photos. Since then, I have placed it on my photos. Lesson learned on that. It was really no big deal to me before.

3rd - Looking at it from the Models view. Since the girls do not know you and the one model asked if she could bring her boyfriend along and you said no. Well They probably should have canceled the shoot. You said you had your Daughter at home and you did not feel comfortable with the guy coming along. If that is how you felt then It was your responsibilty to make arraingments for your Daughter to be at a babysitters or a friends house during the shoot.
I did tell the girl that I would have my daughter at home and would not feel comfortable with a guy in the house. It was their choice to come or not to come on those conditions. I had every right to not shoot and almost did out of anger when I saw the guy there. The only reason I didn't was because my wife happened to be home.