canon's digital roadmap [rumor]

[jmublueduck]

quoted from http://eosseries.ifrance.com/eosseries/en/eos_news.html

I had information that the futur Roadmap for Canon in the digital range is :

For the PMA 2003 :
- The D80 which will be based with the same CMOS sensor than the D60, but correct the D60's flaw.

In 2003 two new digital SLR :
- D40 (name not definitive) with a sensor with less pixels,
- D3 (name not definitive) based on the EOS 3. It should be placed between the D60 and the 1D.

In 2004 :
- A new digital SLR will be presented, a kind ofEOS 300D with a suprising price ! The Digital SLR for everybody !

All these information must be confirmed by official Canon announcement. Wait & See !

[brutal]

I hope that D80 comes out, I would love a 8MP for my 35mm EoS lenses.

[robertwgross]

jmublueduck wrote:
quoted from http://eosseries.ifrance.com/eosseries/en/eos_news.html

I had information that the futur Roadmap for Canon in the digital range is :

For the PMA 2003 :
- The D80 which will be based with the same CMOS sensor than the D60, but correct the D60's flaw.

(snip)


Flaw? What flaw?

---Bob Gross---

[Canon-1Ds]

Interesting but if Canon admit a flaw with the D60 then all you chaps with D60s should get a full refund, fixed or a D80...!!!

[lziering]

The D60 has more than one "flaw". Just to name a few, slow focus or no focus in low light, poor metering--especially in low light, and underexposure when using a 550ex flash. I get great images from my D60 but I wish it didn't have flaws that Canon could have fixed by spending $50 more on the body.

[Hawkeye12]

Canon-1Ds wrote:
Interesting but if Canon admit a flaw with the D60 then all you chaps with D60s should get a full refund, fixed or a D80...!!!

boy, i couldn't agree with you more on that one, but unless Canon makes this statement officially, no one will recieve anything based on the rumor.

[Yavor74]

The real boner is that these flaws are correctable in the camera's firmware. Someone should unassemble the code and optimize the focusing routines. The under-exposure thing is so easy to fix.. I am at a loss as to why they won't do it. It is a real black mark against Canon. The 28-135 IS is a full stop under-exposing and the other lenses are about a half-stop. The 550ex is almost 2 stops under.

Are you guys at Canon, Lake Success NY- reading these boards? Please pass this info up the chain. These problems are addressable. Someone at your facility could even experiment with doing the mods. You'all need to make good on these problems- else loose a bunch of sales to Nikon.

What say?

Bob

[photography By Evangelos]

I can say that the D60 Over all is not the camera that we were all hopeing for. The A/F system just plain sucks. I have put in some time with the Fuji S2 pro this last two weeks and can say that the camera has a very good A/F system and at higher ISO settings the camera produces much less noise at higher ISO settings and thats a fact. But I have no Nikon gear so no Fuji in my future?? Well if canon keeps producing cameras wich can not A/F in low light and do not work well at higher ISO settings I may be looking for a better camera. I have 2 D60's and hope the next camera is not more of the same. The 1Ds is just to high I would need to pay around $16,000 for two and that is just to much. When is the last time any one spent that much on a 35mm SLR body base system? Never. Nore did canon ever have a SLR in that price range. Also in 18 months the 1Ds will have been out dated by a newer unit. By the way I have talked to a canon factory rep and he told me that canon is aware of t he D60's problems. Specifically the A/F system and he told me that canon saved the better A/F system for the EOS 1D and 1Ds cameras and did not put as good of and A/F system in the NON-PRO models. The D60 not a pro model? Well I got a bit upset with his answer to say the least. A camera with a Price tag of $2,199.00 is for who then? Amateures and students I guess. What a crapy answer from a CANON FACTOY REP at a new store opening here in Boca Raton Florida.
There are many Pros useing the D60 every day and I am one of them. Canon should have a program were you can get your 60'S upgraded to a better A/F system. Sorry I am just venting a bit any. D60 a non pro camera what a crock. Last time I checked most non pros were buying Rebels,Elans, and EOS A2cameras and they were under $600.00 Or so. Any way lets wait and see what new cameras canon has in march at PMA.

[robertwgross]

If you go to a general amateur's camera shop and ask about the Canon EOS D60, they will not have any in stock, and they will say that it is a pro camera and you probably are not interested in it.

I was present at a photography seminar with lots of more serious photographers around. Somebody asked the Canon factory rep about the difference between the D60 and the 1DS. The Canon rep said that the D60 was for amateurs and the 1DS was the pro camera.

What you call it depends on where you are and who you are talking to, and none of it constitutes a verbal contract.

---Bob Gross---

[Canon-1Ds]

OK put it another way the D60 is an amateur camera at a professional price bracket...who are Canon kidding...
this is Canon snobbery, you get this all the time with these so called experts....If the D60 was the only D-SLR he would say the D30 is for Amateurs and D60 was for pros...but being serious the D60 is overpriced for what you get...the 1Ds is a joke, Canon are dipping their foot in the water with this price and amazingly getting takers...Once Kodak bring out the 14MB spoiler Canon will drop the 1Ds to less than £4K mark my words.
I think the "FLAW" they are talking about was the size of the chip itself in the D60. Talking to pros even the one intervieed on their own 1Ds web site they admit the 1.6 conversion is a pain...they have come to realise that lots of lenses including theirs do not work well using this chip and all cameras from here on in will have a full 35mm footprint...they have had so many negative comments about the D60 chip size from pros plus the stupid cost of the 1DS they have been forced to produce the D90...9MP...3 more than the 1Ds but not enough to harm it's market share...A full frame 9MP camera for about £3K would be a winner and they know it...lets hope they take the comments from you guys about focus speed, focus assist lamp, exposure problems etc.

[Pekka]

My preferences are in order

1. 100% viewfinder. I have nothing but gray hair from not seeing framing accurately.

2. WB sensor like in 1D.

3. higher ISO, lower noise. This seems to happen with each new model.

4. more dynamic range. This has not improved for a while in any camera.

5. better (excellent) fast low light AF (even 1 point, I usually can't/won't use ST-E2 as extra help).

6. quieter shutter noise. 1D sounds ridiculous in concert halls - you just can't work with that kind of noise level.

7. shielding for weather and electromagnetical/heat problems (I see sometimes banding in D60).

8. 1.3X fov (enough with 14mm)

9. more resolution (better interpolation algorithm - CMOS must get rid of jaggies and other artifacts!).

10. improved ergonomics (D30/60 is quite good there, but they could use e.g. multiple exposure presets (loose sports mode!) and faster/easier file browsing etc.

[photography By Evangelos]

Very true the Kodak Pro DCS PRO 14n should bring down prices a bit. I hope that canon will sell guts to kodak so we can have the DCS PRO 14 "C". Most are poo pooing the Kodak body saying it is not on the same level as the Canon 1Ds bla bla sounds like canon hoopla.
I aslo asked the canon rep how did canon expect to get $8,000 grand when the Kodak is selling for $4,799 at 14 pixels VS the EOS 1Ds at 11 Pixels. He said that you can not compare the two cameras. Really how so? The EOS 1Ds is a camera which makes no sense built on the EOS 1V body but the EOS 1Ds dosent have the Speed of the 1D CCD 4 Pixel camera, but it has lots of Pixels on the same body wich is much slower so how dose the EOS 1Ds make any sense? Do you really need a body like this? Or is it a bit of over kill for a stuido? That is were I was told that this camera will most likely wind up in the words of the canon Rep. So lets see march is around the corner canon has some new stuff in the works.

[photography By Evangelos]

Canon-1Ds wrote:
OK put it another way the D60 is an amateur camera at a professional price bracket...who are Canon kidding...
this is Canon snobbery, you get this all the time with these so called experts....If the D60 was the only D-SLR he would say the D30 is for Amateurs and D60 was for pros...but being serious the D60 is overpriced for what you get...the 1Ds is a joke, Canon are dipping their foot in the water with this price and amazingly getting takers...Once Kodak bring out the 14MB spoiler Canon will drop the 1Ds to less than £4K mark my words.
I think the "FLAW" they are talking about was the size of the chip itself in the D60. Talking to pros even the one intervieed on their own 1Ds web site they admit the 1.6 conversion is a pain...they have come to realise that lots of lenses including theirs do not work well using this chip and all cameras from here on in will have a full 35mm footprint...they have had so many negative comments about the D60 chip size from pros plus the stupid cost of the 1DS they have been forced to produce the D90...9MP...3 more than the 1Ds but not enough to harm it's market share...A full frame 9MP camera for about £3K would be a winner and they know it...lets hope they take the comments from you guys about focus speed, focus assist lamp, exposure problems etc.


I hope canon is listening the D30 was nice and the D60 was more of the same. How ever it will not work the third time.

[Dans_D60]

Does this remind me of the computer wars of the late 80’s or what! You need to ask yourself if the price of bleeding edge adoption is worth it. I bought an IBM PC in 1981 and considered it to be one of the greatest influences on the home computing market today. I also purchase the PC Jr. with the same idea … what a flop! I now own a D30 and D60 and like the PC, the ride has just begun so hold on! Anyway, Canon like IBM and many others before them completely understand the market the business the customer and competitive adoption curves. The biggest can make mistakes (remember the PC Jr.), but I believe (one person’s opinion) photography is rapidly moving into a completely digital world and we are just skimming the surface of capability – 20 years ago the PC with a whopping 4 Megahertz 8-bit processor and 256K of memory costing over $2,500 was considered state-of-the art. Moore’s Law - the idea that processing power will double every 18 months – will hold true in this new and very exciting adventure of digital photography. I see 100 megapixel sensors that can adjust with zoom and quality on the fly. How about zooming into 10 percent of a 100 meg sensor bringing a 400 mm lens to 1600 mm and still have 10 megapixels to play with. It will happen. The depth and breadth of Canon’s research and development arm along with its complementary business units in digital component production make them a natural. Sure, Nikon and Kodak will have their day – but Canon is perfectly positioned to dominate this market – like it or not. --- Just my opinion!

Dan
http://www.pettusphoto.com

[Paul Simonetti]

I've been shooting an EOS 3 for my 35mm shots and a Canon G2 for my digital, with decent results. I tend to lean more towards the digital because it allows me the ability to see my results immediately, and they seem to "work" better for me in Photoshop. I should point out that these two items are pretty important to me because I'm not nearly as good as what I see posted on the forums, but I"m trying.

I figured going to a digital SLR would be the best thing for me to do. So I've been saving my pennies and I was pretty close so all I had to do was sell my EOS 3 and I'd be there. I could keep my 28-135 IS lens and my 550ex flash and save myself another chunk of change right there.

I was torn on whether to switch to Nikon and their D100 or stay with Canon. I'm sorry to admit that the final judgement was mostly financial, because I would not be able to buy a lens and flash if I went with the Nikon.

My D60 is supposed to arrive this week. Have I made a bad choice? If y'all had to do over again, working with only $2,000 or so, which way would you go?

Paul Simonetti
http://www.rowlettphoto.com

[lziering]

Paul S,
This thread is full of speculation. If you want to know what Canon is really going to do next you will have to wait until the first week in March when the PMA (Photo Marketing Assoc.) holds its annual convention in Las Vegas. Most new camera equipment is introduced at this show. Stay tuned!

[Thomas]

Paul Simonetti wrote:
My D60 is supposed to arrive this week. Have I made a bad choice?

Unpack your camera, learn how to use it and start taking pictures. This is not the last camera you will ever own, I hope.
I was in your position exactly a year ago. I cancelled my D30 order in February and had to wait for D60 delivery till the end of August. My trip to Europe had to be photographed using a borrowed G2. I could have used the D30 during my holiday trip. You can't put your life on hold waiting for a perfect camera.

Regards,

Thomas

[John-M]

Dans_D60 wrote:
I believe (one person’s opinion) photography is rapidly moving into a completely digital world and we are just skimming the surface of capability – 20 years ago the PC with a whopping 4 Megahertz 8-bit processor and 256K of memory costing over $2,500 was considered state-of-the art. Moore’s Law - the idea that processing power will double every 18 months – will hold true in this new and very exciting adventure of digital photography.



Dan,

Dan hit the nail on the head. It is EXACTLY like the birth of the PC.

Digital photography is an infant technology, Moore's law is going to hold true- twice the speed\pixels\quality at half the price every 18 months or so. We already see it!If it follows the PC trend in 6 or 8 years consumer cameras will be 30M at $400 and PRO stuff will be 100M at $3000.

People that need high end stuff NOW just have to pay the price and not whine that it doesn't have the features of the next generation camera, if you want those features just wait a year or so. If you want to shoot now, go buy what is current, but know that next year your camera will be obsolete and the next great thing will have arrived.


JohnM


(Who still has his MS-DOS 2.0 manuals in my bookcase over the desk as a reminder of how fast it changes.)

DOS 2.0 introduced in 1983 along with IBM XT. Rewrite. Support for 10MB hard drives, subdirectories and 360K diskettes - WOW MR. BILL ALL THAT? WHO NEEDS MORE THAT 640K ANYWAY?

[Dans_D60]

(Who still has his MS-DOS 2.0 manuals in my bookcase over the desk as a reminder of how fast it changes.)


John:

I have one up on ya. Still have CPM-80 operating system manual from 1979 (I don’t know why I keep this junk!). Remember CPM? It was supposed to be the “standard” microprocessor operating system before Bill and IBM got together.
Dan

[John-M]

Dans_D60 wrote:Ihave one up on ya. Still have CPM-80 operating system manual from 1979 - Remember CPM?

Oh Boy...CPM...Data storage on a cassette?

All right Dan, I'll see your CPM and raise you an IBM 029 punch card machine! My first IT job was an after-school job checking in route drivers at a Seven Up dist center. I entered the info onto punch cards (via the 029) and then ran them thru a punch card reader the size of a VW.

I actually did the programming for the reader. it was done on a breadboard with patch cables! Now is that "old school" or what.

My first real camera was an old Nikon Ftn (bought it used in high school) and I shot Nikon until three years ago when my sister passed away and I inherited her Canon equipped studio. In 4 months I had traded ALL my Nikon gear and never looked back.

John


PS Dan, I still ride my Harley and date younger women. As George Burns said " You are only as young as the woman you are feeling". .

[Clavain]

Wow CPM,

I just have to tell my CPM story. I was working in London years ago and was told to go down to Cardiff and get a machine working which wasn't. Asking around the office I discovered it ran CPM, yuck! didn't know any thing about CPM. No bother, went to bed the night before with CPM manual (us Engineers are a sad lot ;-)). Got the train the next morning from paddington and travelled first class (very daring of me), and spent another two hours boning up on CPM.

Got to Cardiff and everybody was speaking with a very funny accent, saying at the end of every sentence. Anyway to make a short story longer, I found the machine to discover it was in a housing association which was full of Afgans all in their traditional dress, with those funny (rather nice I must say) hats we have all seen on CNN of late and all talking in heavy welsh accents... you seee! complaining that their toilet was broken, or the door wouldn't close (it was a housing association you seee) and nothing could get done because the database was running (or not as the case was in the event) on this CPM machine.

Any way got the machine fixed and the database up. Most people when they think of Afganistan, think of war and mayhem, I think of welsh accents, broken toilets and CPM.

When I got back to London the boss took a look at my expenses and asked "did you get the CPM machine up?", when I answered in the afirmative he grunted and paid up. After that I always travelled first class.

Haven't seen a CPM machine since.



:-)
Clavain

[Dans_D60]

John-M wrote[
Oh Boy...CPM...Data storage on a cassette?

All right Dan, I'll see your CPM and raise you an IBM 029 punch card machine! My first IT job was an after-school job checking in route drivers at a Seven Up dist center. I entered the info onto punch cards (via the 029) and then ran them thru a punch card reader the size of a VW.


OK … CPM notwithstanding … let’s end this bizarre thread with a moment of adoration to the geeks of the 70’s who successfully open the digital embedded microprocessor world that eventually resulted in digital photography as we know it. The roadmap of digital photography will be littered with good and bad ideas just like the digital microprocessor revolution that began with 4-bit embedded controllers from Intel (4004) and others.

John: I see your IBM 029 punch machine raise a complete five-rack minicomputer system to operate a radio telescope and a music synthesizer creation based on scrap General Automation (I was a systems engineer at GA in Anaheim California during the early 70’s) 16-bit (core memory) minicomputers. Circa 1974-75. The image below is a photograph of the completed project in the bedroom! Look closely and you will see (foreground) the ASR Teletype system at a whopping 110 BAUD as the main system console. And O’ ya … we need lots of storage so we installed a rack of five huge disk drives … at 5 megabytes each! OK I call.
Dan
http://www.pettusphoto.com

http://www.pettusphoto.com/dcomp1.jpg

[John-M]

Dans_D60 wrote:
[quote]Let’s end this bizarre thread with a moment of adoration to the geeks of the 70’s who successfully open the digital embedded microprocessor world that eventually resulted in digital photography as we know it.

John: I see your IBM 029 punch machine raise a complete five-rack minicomputer system to operate a radio telescope and a music synthesizer creation based on scrap General Automation (I was a systems engineer at GA in Anaheim California during the early 70’s) 16-bit (core memory) minicomputers. Circa 1974-75. The image below is a photograph of the completed project in the bedroom! OK I call.
Dan
http://www.pettusphoto.com

http://www.pettusphoto.com/dcomp1.jpg


Dan - I fold, nice raise though, It seems we both are true "old school" geeks. It is nice to met someone else who actually had to solder something together to make a computer.

I agree we all owe a debt to those that made the PC as we know it in their garage. And it is nice to be on the ground floor of another revolution- the digital imaging revolution.

I was laughing when I saw the comment that Canon might owe someone a new D90 because of the limitations (flaws) of the D60. Thats like saying Intel owes me a P6 because my Pentium 90 had a floating point error. Get over it guys, if you want to play on the cutting edge you gotta pay to play.

JohnM

[andycampbell]

I really wish the forum could move on. The D 60 is fine, I am wondering how many people have tried the 35mm bodies, and the 1n’s auto focus is unreliable as is the EOS 3.

The D60 could be refined, but any of the problems frequently mentioned can be solved.
with old fashioned photo now-how.
If people don’t like the 550ex don’t use it their are plenty of other options. Also Nikon users have report problems with dedicated flashes and their digital bodies. This is a new problem, unique to very sensitive digital cameras.
As for noise, well when compared with high speed film, D60m images look pretty good.
White balancing, why can’t people use warming gels or CC filters, a Roscoe sample book (free) is all you need.

The D 60 is very good, and not flawed as such. I am a professional photographer and most of my work is for magazines and brochures, the 1d was not suitable, the files were too small. The D60 is just about good enough.

I still use 1ns in my view the newer bodies, the 3 and 5 have really not been a significant improvement. I am sure future digital bodies will be better but I may skip this round and wait for next D160??