Just a rant

[radloser]

I have a question. Why does it seem like every photographer that wasn't shooting 10 years before the introduction of digital is a beginner?

I was out before first light this morning at a local park shooting, just because. For the sheer appreciation for the art, I was doing it. I'm approached by another photographer that had to brag about how many film cameras he owns and what he's done in his career. I have a strong appreciation for photography and I highly regret not getting into it when I was young. I'm not big into a lot of photoshop and other ways of manipulating my images either. Unless I envision doing something with the image that I'm taking when I'm taking it, it stays as is. I don't consider myself a pro nor do I feel I'm at that level. However, I have no doubt that I am better than 90% of all the yuppies out there with SLRs that have no business with one. I'm usually very modest when it comes to my work, but I'm ercked this morning. It's not like I have never shot film before. I can't say I'm well versed in the process, but I understand it.

Thanks for listening. Please leave a comment, any comment if you feel like. I just needed to get that out.

[philodelphi]

I think there's a lot of shooters out there, with or without a lot of fancy equipment, who's ego is heavily tied into their interest in photography. The ego needs to be kept in check. Aummmmm......

[LBaldwin]

Hi Bill,

I am probably one of those that fit into the catagory of your early morning friend. The issue is one that you will come across quite alot when you hang with creatives. Most are really into their work and really compete to see who's is bigger. Oddly enough it is not gender specific either, go figure.

I grade myself very hard and much harder than I do others. I always have. I do judge at club meetings and have seen some wonderful images created by noobs or old timers alike. But I think you understand that it runs the gamut, and even those with years of photography behind them still shoot lousey, or even worse boring shots.

My main gripe is those that put their tripod into another's tripod holes. If you photography looks exactly like the stuff I can get for free on a CD, then you are just a fancy xerox machine.

Photographers are an intensly jealous bunch somtimes so when we see one another it is natural to become a little bit of a measurebator. I am guilty of it and I think if you look in your heart you may find it too. Everyone gets it sometimes. You yourself put your work into the 10% of yuppies with cameras, do you really think that the work is that good?

Philodelphi is correct I do have to keep my ego in check. There is always some other shooter that has great images that make me green...

[shomat]

Films snobs are just that. In general, people who talk a big game or float an air of superiority are usually doing so not to impress you, but as a means to cope with their own internal lack of confidence.

I'm not big into a lot of photoshop and other ways of manipulating my images either. Unless I envision doing something with the image that I'm taking when I'm taking it, it stays as is.

Photoshop purists are another sect for whom I have no appreciation. Unless you are a journalist, get over it and make some art.

In conclusion: talk is cheap.

[radloser]

I'm not even saying you need the top of the line camera to shoot great images. He probably has a better eye than I and he was using a lower end camera then the one I had out. I'll give credit where it's due. Even some of the lowest level SLRs will produce a great image, IF you can compose one. It just seems like anyone who shot back in the film only days needs to make sure everyone knows it. He had to hand me his card before I left. Out of curiosity I tried to check out his site, and found it's not even up. Real professional huh?

[philodelphi]

There is always some other shooter that has great images that make me green...

Yeah! For me, photography is a release, kind of a form of meditation. When my ego gets entangled, which it definitely does, that disturbs my calm... no peace there. No disconnection. And my best work is when I find that timeless state. I presume this is not true for lots of other photographers though. We are all in it for lots of different reasons, I presume.

[radloser]

Hi Bill,

I am probably one of those that fit into the catagory of your early morning friend. The issue is one that you will come across quite alot when you hang with creatives. Most are really into their work and really compete to see who's is bigger. Oddly enough it is not gender specific either, go figure.

I grade myself very hard and much harder than I do others. I always have. I do judge at club meetings and have seen some wonderful images created by noobs or old timers alike. But I think you understand that it runs the gamut, and even those with years of photography behind them still shoot lousey, or even worse boring shots.

My main gripe is those that put their tripod into another's tripod holes. If you photography looks exactly like the stuff I can get for free on a CD, then you are just a fancy xerox machine.

Photographers are an intensly jealous bunch somtimes so when we see one another it is natural to become a little bit of a measurebator. I am guilty of it and I think if you look in your heart you may find it too. Everyone gets it sometimes. You yourself put your work into the 10% of yuppies with cameras, do you really think that the work is that good?

Philodelphi is correct I do have to keep my ego in check. There is always some other shooter that has great images that make me green...

I understand what you mean by another photographer putting his tripod in my holes. I have had it done in class and I was fumed. Needless to say I used something different and got a better grade anyway, but it was the sheer point of it. I refuse to do anything and I'm constantly killing myself to be different and creative.

Do I think my work is better than 90% of the yuppies walking around with their SLRs on auto. Yes I do. There, I'm not being humble for the first time since I have started this hobby. But, again I do it for the sheer enjoyment of it. I fall into Philodelphi's category here.

I appreciate all of those who have something to show me and I will listen intently because there's always something new to learn. Just don't approach me to tell me how great you are and how much equipment you have. I didn't come up and ask, so I don't want to know.

[CoquetteRN]

Here is my bottom line. Art is up for interpretation. So when someone comes to me and talks up their work, I am excited to see it. I also realize that those people are usually of small confidence and are looking for encouragement. As for beginner vs amateur vs pro, I am not into labels. If you are, and his labeling of you bothered you, you should probably work that issue out. The bottom line, its your Art whether you started today or 20 yrs ago. Some people are gifted, others have to work at it. I would dismiss any further thought of his conversation because he is probably someone that has to work at it. And.. guess what, he got to you. Mission accomplished.

[philodelphi]

The interesting thing, with almost all people, no matter what their agenda, if you listen to their (sometimes tiresome) talk (because what they're really looking for is validation/encouragement) with a non judgmental mind (often difficult), and then look at your own reactions to their words (you are not those reactions) there is much to learn, either about photography, or about yourself. I am often humbled by other peoples' work, because I definitely have to work at it.

[JeffreyG]

He's a jerk, but not because he feels superior. It's because he couldn't stop himself from parading his awesomeness in front of you.

There are times we all feel superior. My BIL bought himself a Nikon D90 which he shoots entirely on auto. Then he says things like "CNET says the D90 is the best dSLR, so I guess it is better than your 1D huh?" I smile and nod.

A normal person would feel superior to my BIL (admit it, you would) and a jerk would proceed to show him up.

[alabama1980]

t
I have a question. Why does it seem like every photographer that wasn't shooting 10 years before the introduction of digital is a beginner?

I think some of the "old schoolers" regard a lot of the advantages of digital as a crutch for this generation of photographer. Who can possibly deny that it has gotten easier to learn due to instant gratification?

I think some of the film guys see this generation learning things at a more rapid rate and may be a tad jealous in some cases. I'm not saying that this "rapid rate" of learning is a better process. In all honesty I wish I had learned on film. Then I could poke fun at these digital monkeys!! wait...that's me....:)

[Wilt]

There are 'fast car snobs', 'fancy cell phone snobs', 'fancy PC snobs', 'bigger format snobs', 'film snobs', 'big lens snobs', 'L lens snobs'...what they have in common is a strong linkage between their self worth and what they own/use, associated with a bit of inferiority complex that needs to be compensated. An acquainance of mine refers to guys who "drive their p3nis around". Same thing!

[mike_d]

However, I have no doubt that I am better than 90% of all the yuppies out there with SLRs that have no business with one.

So who are you to decide who deserves an SLR or not? Is there something wrong with someone wanting a camera with fast, accurate autofocus, good high ISO performance, near zero shutter lag, and nice glass if they're not an "artist"?

[airfrogusmc]

There are 'fast car snobs', 'fancy cell phone snobs', 'fancy PC snobs', 'bigger format snobs', 'film snobs', 'big lens snobs', 'L lens snobs'...what they have in common is a strong linkage between their self worth and what they own/use, associated with a bit of inferiority complex that needs to be compensated. An acquainance of mine refers to guys who "drive their p*nis around". Same thing!

Yep we've all been beginners at one time and no matter how experienced there will always be someone more experienced or more knowledgeable or more ___________ . Don't let it get to ya. I remember years ago I was shooting a wedding and I had a guest with a new EOS 1 (before digital) come up to me and say something like I can't believe your not shooting something more professional. (I was shooting with a couple of 500 C/Ms) and I just looked at him and said "yeah I can't afford that kind of gear you have." He felt all good about himself and walked away. At the time a 500C/M with film back and finder was about about 3 times more than an EOS 1 was.

[nphsbuckeye]

Photoshop purists are another sect for whom I have no appreciation. Unless you are a journalist, get over it and make some art.

In conclusion: talk is cheap.
Your two paragraphs contradict themselves.

[Cesium]

I have no doubt that I am better than 90% of all the yuppies out there with SLRs that have no business with one. I'm usually very modest when it comes to my work,

Right...

[nicksan]

I don't consider myself a pro nor do I feel I'm at that level. However, I have no doubt that I am better than 90% of all the yuppies out there with SLRs that have no business with one.

You were doing fine until you said that. Now you sound like the very person you are ranting about.

Couple of things.

The "snobs" are just that. They have their reasons for acting that way. Could be that they are just a-holes, insecure, feel threatened by the influx of photographers with the introduction of Digital, etc. They are often times set in their ways and opinions and you can't do anything about that. It's like arguing with your parents. You go nowhere...fast.:)

But you being bothered enough by this to have to rant about it tells me more about you...

I've been a musician for 20+ years. I am in tune to the fact that the 20+ years mean absolutely nothing when it comes to evaluating my abilities. I've had my fair share of run ins with musician snobs. You eventually get to a point where it doesn't bother you anymore and brush them off. I know what I can and cannot do on my instrument. They don't know that and honestly, I don't give a sh*t if they do or don't.

I've been into photography for maybe 8 years, only 4 of them seriously with the DSLR. The snobs don't bother me one bit. I know what I am capable of doing. I also know I have lots to learn. There is no end to this game. It's a life long pursuit and the pursuit never ends. Once you understand this, it becomes very easy to not pay attention to the snobs. It's this inner pursuit that gives me purpose...

[airfrogusmc]

You were doing fine until you said that. Now you sound like the very person you as well...

Couple of things.

The "snobs" are just that. They have their reasons for acting that way. Could be that they are just a-holes, insecure, feel threatened by the influx of photographers with the introduction of Digital, etc. They are often times set in their ways and opinions and you can't do anything about that. It's like arguing with your parents. You go nowhere...fast.:)

But you being bothered enough by this to have to rant about it tells me more about you than the snob.

I've been a musician for 20+ years. I've had my fair share of run ins with snobs. You eventually get to a point where it doesn't bother you anymore and brush them off. I know what I can and cannot do on my instrument. They don't know that and honestly, I don't give a sh*t if they do or don't.

I've been into photography for maybe 8 years, only 4 of them seriously with the DSLR. The snobs don't bother me one bit. I know what I am capable of doing. I also know I have lots to learn. There is no end to this game. It's a life long pursuit and the pursuit never ends. Once you understand this, it becomes very easy to no pay attention to the snobs.

I have a great deal of confidence and I know my strengths and weaknesses as a photographer and I would NEVER make a statement like that "better than 90% statement." Better in what area of photography are you than the 90% out there? If you say all areas I will spit my coffee all over my keyboard.

[nicksan]

I have a great deal of confidence and I know my strengths and weaknesses as a photographer and I would NEVER make a statement like that "better than 90% statement." Better in what area of photography are you than the 90% out there? If you say all areas I will spit my coffee all over my keyboard.

Allen,
Is this in response to my post or are you just adding to my post?
Just confused, because the 90% statement wasn't mind and you referred to it.

BTW, I'm just 62.5678425% better than 10% of 1% of them out there. ;)

[airfrogusmc]

Allen,
Is this in response to my post or are you just adding to my post?
Just confused, because the 90% statement wasn't mind and you referred to it.

BTW, I'm just 62.5678425% better than 10% of 1% of them out there. ;)

Its adding to what you're saying. I know you better than to think you would make statement like that and with you in some areas it could be true;)

[nicksan]

Its adding to what you're saying. I know you better than to think you would make statement like that and with you in some areas it could be true;)

You mean that I'm 62.5678425% better than 10% of 1% of photographers out there?

Yes, that is indeed true.:D:o

[airfrogusmc]

You mean that I'm 62.5678425% better than 10% of 1% of photographers out there?

Yes, that is indeed true.:D:o

:lol::lol:

Sh*t I wish I were half that.

[MetricMeter]

Maybe the guy was just lonely, and trying to make conversation? People love to talk about what they have and what they have done, and what they know. That is human nature.

Or, maybe he wanted to offer you some old film cameras for free since he has so many?

You can make lemon-aid in these situations or just be a sour puss.

I'd have asked to take his portrait. :D

[Lisa]

My BIL bought himself a Nikon D90 which he shoots entirely on auto.


yeah same situation here except I have an XS (all I could afford) what's bad is I wanna say why not try getting out of auto and move around to take some shots. We had our childrens birthday party a few weeks ago and with me having to deal with cake and other food I thought I didn't get as many good shots of my children as I'd hoped for but looking at the photos that he took with his D90 from the couch he could have used a P&S and took better photos. Whats bad is he wants to "teach" his wife how to use it.:rolleyes:

[crashthenet44]

However, I have no doubt that I am better than 90% of all the yuppies out there with SLRs that have no business with one.

Really? Do you have any proof of this statement? Surely you must when you write "I have no doubt." Sorry boss, but your entire "rant" lost all credibility with this sentence.

[radloser]

Ok, just to clarify a few things... especially those who like to quote only one sentence from my entire post....

So who are you to decide who deserves an SLR or not? Is there something wrong with someone wanting a camera with fast, accurate autofocus, good high ISO performance, near zero shutter lag, and nice glass if they're not an "artist"?

Obviously you know why you bought that camera. I'm referring to the ones who buy it because they can. The ones who have no idea what a shutter speed or an apeture are or how they even relate to each other. Or even those who don't know what SLR stands for.

I think some of the "old schoolers" regard a lot of the advantages of digital as a crutch for this generation of photographer. Who can possibly deny that it has gotten easier to learn due to instant gratification?

I agree it's a crutch, that's why I have a hard time accepting a lot of new processes and digital manipulation that's out there. I'd say 90% (that's right I used that number again, make sure you take this one out of context too) of digital only shooters have no idea how much the digital process has changed photography.

Really? Do you have any proof of this statement? Surely you must when you write "I have no doubt." Sorry boss, but your entire "rant" lost all credibility with this sentence.

Ok, for the haters... It's obvious you didnt attach the statement in the context it was presented, so allow me!

I don't consider myself a pro nor do I feel I'm at that level. However, I have no doubt that I am better than 90% of all the yuppies out there with SLRs that have no business with one. I'm usually very modest when it comes to my work, but I'm ercked this morning.

If you need a definition for "a yuppie with an SLR that has no business with one", see above.

[airfrogusmc]

Ok, just to clarify a few things... especially those who like to quote only one sentence from my entire post....



Obviously you know why you bought that camera. I'm referring to the ones who buy it because they can. The ones who have no idea what a shutter speed or an apeture are or how they even relate to each other. Or even those who don't know what SLR stands for.



I agree it's a crutch, that's why I have a hard time accepting a lot of new processes and digital manipulation that's out there. I'd say 90% (that's right I used that number again, make sure you take this one out of context too) of digital only shooters have no idea how much the digital process has changed photography.



Ok, for the haters... It's obvious you didnt attach the statement in the context it was presented, so allow me!

I don't consider myself a pro nor do I feel I'm at that level. However, I have no doubt that I am better than 90% of all the yuppies out there with SLRs that have no business with one. I'm usually very modest when it comes to my work, but I'm ercked this morning.

If you need a definition for "a yuppie with an SLR that has no business with one", see above.

Slow down there big guy. I know at least 9 other incredible photographers that you might label as yuppies and if I put you in the room with them I'm sure you would see a 90% ratio but I'm not so sure that backs your statement ;)

[Lazuka]

I've been shooting for under 2 years, and i'm laughing all the way to the bank, it's all about results. I think most people that shot way before digital want the respect for all the work that is going into something, that we now take for granted..so just give respect where respect is due, and take what most people take as a grain of salt, and concentrate on your vision and results.

[Lisa]

I've been shooting for under 2 years, and i'm laughing all the way to the bank, it's all about results. I think most people that shot way before digital want the respect for all the work that is going into something, that we now take for granted..so just give respect where respect is due, and take what most people take as a grain of salt, and concentrate on your vision and results.

bw!

[namasste]

Here's a slightly different spin but why does it even matter? Be humble in everything and you'll learn, even from the snobs sometimes. Letting anyone get to you just makes no sense to me. Its not so much about someone else's issues as how you react to them that makes the difference imo. Let it go and who knows what you might discover about that person.... or even yourself. Just something to think about.

[radloser]

I've been shooting for under 2 years, and i'm laughing all the way to the bank, it's all about results. I think most people that shot way before digital want the respect for all the work that is going into something, that we now take for granted..so just give respect where respect is due, and take what most people take as a grain of salt, and concentrate on your vision and results.

Thank you Lazuka, that's all I wanted to hear I guess. I was just venting and my words have been completely skewed. I'm done, you guys have fun with it.

[Lazuka]

Here's a slightly different spin but why does it even matter? Be humble in everything and you'll learn, even from the snobs sometimes. Letting anyone get to you just makes no sense to me. Its not so much about someone else's issues as how you react to them that makes the difference imo. Let it go and who knows what you might discover about that person.... or even yourself. Just something to think about.

Agreed, learning to work with people instead of against them, is needed for good business etiquette.

[airfrogusmc]

Agreed, learning to work with people instead of against them, is needed for good business etiquette.

++1

[nicksan]

If you need a definition for "a yuppie with an SLR that has no business with one", see above.

You mean someone who has enough disposable income that they can buy a 1DsMKIII and use it like a P&S?

God bless him...:lol:

That doesn't bother me at all...none.

[airfrogusmc]

You mean someone who has enough disposable income that they can buy a 1DsMKIII and use it like a P&S?

God bless him...:lol:

That doesn't bother me at all...none.

I could care less to. Its the work that matters whether its taken with a Deardorff, a Holga or anything in between. Why should anyone care what anyone else shoots with. Care about if what you shoot with is giving you the means to capture your vision.

[wyofizz]

So what's new?
These types of feelings arise in any profession/hobby or whatever.
Has always been this way and until competition is bred out of us it will always be that way.
Some people like to brag on themselves, you will never change that.
Just enjoy what you do and do it the best you can. Who cares about the
other guy in this type of situation.

Dave

[Wilt]

I've been shooting for under 2 years, and i'm laughing all the way to the bank, it's all about results. I think most people that shot way before digital want the respect for all the work that is going into something, that we now take for granted..so just give respect where respect is due, and take what most people take as a grain of salt, and concentrate on your vision and results.


When experience has no continued value (like how to work in the darkroom and push process film) then no one has any increased benefit from that old knowledge, and it can be relegated to the "that's nice to know, but useless information to me".

When experience, and the knowledge gained from it, has value, to devalue that prior experience is naive. Knowing that larger formats tax lenses to a lesser degree, and thereby achieve higher performance, is relevant information to know. There are lots of examples where the context of the information is useful to have, and there are examples where the information is NOT useful to have in the digital context.

Knowing that DOF marks on lenses do NOT pertain to that lens on the APS-C format is useful information to know...useful in both contexts. Understanding Guide Numbers is useful information expecially when the ETTL fancy feature is broken or not working (like an ETTL flash would be useless if too far away in the sunlight) What is the challenge for the newbies is to know when to dismiss old knowledge and when to see that it truly is very valued information to have!

[nicksan]

When experience has no continued value (like how to work in the darkroom and push process film) then no one has any increased benefit from that old knowledge, and it can be relegated to the "that's nice to know, but useless information to me".

When experience, and the knowledge gained from it, has value, to devalue that prior experience is naive. Knowing that larger formats tax lenses to a lesser degree, and thereby achieve higher performance, is relevant information to know. There are lots of examples where the context of the information is useful to have, and there are examples where the information is NOT useful to have in the digital context.

Knowing that DOF marks on lenses do NOT pertain to that lens on the APS-C format is useful information to know...useful in both contexts. Understanding Guide Numbers is useful information expecially when the ETTL fancy feature is broken or not working (like an ETTL flash would be useless if too far away in the sunlight) What is the challenge for the newbies is to know when to dismiss old knowledge and when to see that it truly is very valued information to have!

But it's all in how it is presented to that person.

I am pretty tolerant when it comes to being preached to. There's always something to be learned. But others may not feel the same way. I usually don't volunteer my knowledge, to others unless asked. I certainly don't mind spending the time talking photography. It's what I love to do after all.

[mgardner]

Are you sure he was bragging? Maybe you just interpreted it as such. Could be his only mistake was not realizing how what he said made you feel. I don't know, wasn't there. Just something to consider. The good new is if he was bragging you get to choose wether you allow it to bother you.

[Lazuka]

When experience has no continued value (like how to work in the darkroom and push process film) then no one has any increased benefit from that old knowledge, and it can be relegated to the "that's nice to know, but useless information to me".

When experience, and the knowledge gained from it, has value, to devalue that prior experience is naive. Knowing that larger formats tax lenses to a lesser degree, and thereby achieve higher performance, is relevant information to know. There are lots of examples where the context of the information is useful to have, and there are examples where the information is NOT useful to have in the digital context.

Knowing that DOF marks on lenses do NOT pertain to that lens on the APS-C format is useful information to know...useful in both contexts. Understanding Guide Numbers is useful information expecially when the ETTL fancy feature is broken or not working (like an ETTL flash would be useless if too far away in the sunlight) What is the challenge for the newbies is to know when to dismiss old knowledge and when to see that it truly is very valued information to have!

I agree 100 percent and you definately summed up what i wanted to say, with a lot more grace.

[nphsbuckeye]

Are you sure he was bragging? Maybe you just interpreted it as such. Could be his only mistake was not realizing how what he said made you feel. I don't know, wasn't there. Just something to consider. The good new is if he was bragging you get to choose wether you allow it to bother you.
Considering the way he's reacting here, I wouldn't doubt if he's overreacting.

[birdfromboat]

Just a side note for ya, when that guy was getting started with his kodak pocket instamatic, he probably had to deal with some jerk with a Nikon F and an Ego that filled the ten foot radius around him at all times. And that guy started with a brownie box and took crap from an Argus owner. Blah Blah Blah, daguerotype.

[ssim]

I think that most of us have ran into a similar situation at one time or another. You (the OP) are obviously a little guarded about your photography or this would simply be one of those "yeah, whatever" situations. I happen to be one of those old schoolers as someone said and I have been able to adapt just fine, thank you very much.

Those that buy because they can should not have to bow before you. I agree that many buy it for the increase in quality and do not exploit that to very much of its capabilities. To ridicule them for that is just plain arrogant, almost as much as saying that you reside in the top 10% of photographers. I still see no value in that comment after reading your post and responses several times.

I make my living doing this now and have done so for several years now. You won't see me coming on this forum or any other and spout that I am laughing all the way to the bank. I did learn my photography in the film days and like some others here spent alot of time in the darkroom (a very rewarding experience). I have never used this to say that I am better than anyone else. It does give you a broader range of understanding of the different photographic processes. Note, I said broader range and not better, not superior, just a wider range.

Some people just love to talk photography. Perhaps your encounter was with one of these people and they simply rubbed you the wrong way. You should have simply told him that your photographic skills reside in the top 10% of photographers and I am sure that would have shut him up.

[DAMphyne]

I think film lovers are like Jeep lovers.
If you have to ask, you'll never understand.

There is probably No better way to learn photographic basics than shooting, processing and printing film.

Of course, I'm an old film fart, and it's the way I learned.

Looking at the wonderful images on this forum proves that I'm probably wrong.
Again.

The more people who buy 7D's, the lower the price, right?

[breal101]

Just a side note for ya, when that guy was getting started with his kodak pocket instamatic, he probably had to deal with some jerk with a Nikon F and an Ego that filled the ten foot radius around him at all times. And that guy started with a brownie box and took crap from an Argus owner. Blah Blah Blah, daguerotype.


Photographers with egos? :shock: :)

[nicksan]

There is probably No better way to learn photographic basics than shooting, processing and printing film.


But then, isn't that dismissing those who started Digitally? The "old fart" thing is nice and everything, but it still comes off as snobbish to me. (I apologize if I am wrong.:o)

I don't think shooting film has anything to do with learning photography. If you think it does, then that's backwards thinking IMHO. I think the notion of being more "intimate" with your photo when developing in a darkroom is overstated. I say this of course having never done it. But I feel it hasn't hurt me at all. None. Zip. In fact, if I had to do all that, I probably would not be into photography right now. I guess you can question my dedication then...;)

That said, I understand where this is coming from. When we redid our house, we designed it, even done some work along side the construction crew, picked out the colors, cabinets, doors...literally everything. It was a labor of love. So rather than moving into a ready-made house, we feel more of an attachment to our house b/c of all the hard work that went into it.

But how do you define hard work? What if I spent days, months even, "perfecting" a photo in Photoshop? I think I would feel the same level of attachment to that photo as someone developing in a darkroom, no?

[SOK]

I guess I can empathize with the OP.

Some people can talk sensibly and reminisce fondly about film and darkroom processing in a way that will interest and engage other shooters - digital or otherwise.

Others can't seem to bring film into a conversation without getting the soap box out and becoming a lecturer.

The latter certainly irks me, but I guess I don't let it get to me too much.

If nothing else, POTN has taught me a lot more tolerance for people who approach this art form in a different way to me.

Once upon a time I resented those who bought a 1D as a beginner camera to learn on, or had $5k worth of L glass and shot in full Auto, or over-processed poor shots in post...but I've learned that it doesn't matter one bit what other people do.

Sure...those who shoot their mouths off and big note themselves based on gear/experience/client list are annoying...but they're probably jerks in their normal lives too.

I try to just smile and nod...just as I would if I encountered an irritating bank teller, or drive-through attendant.

I can understand the OPs rant, and I hope getting it off his chest (and possibly reading some of the responses) has made him feel a little better.

[Lazuka]

But then, isn't that dismissing those who started Digitally? The "old fart" thing is nice and everything, but it still comes off as snobbish to me. (I apologize if I am wrong.:o)

I don't think shooting film has anything to do with learning photography. If you think it does, then that's backwards thinking IMHO. I think the notion of being more "intimate" with your photo when developing in a darkroom is overstated. I say this of course having never done it. But I feel it hasn't hurt me at all. None. Zip. In fact, if I had to do all that, I probably would not be into photography right now. I guess you can question my dedication then...;)

That said, I understand where this is coming from. When we redid our house, we designed it, even done some work along side the construction crew, picked out the colors, cabinets, doors...literally everything. It was a labor of love. So rather than moving into a ready-made house, we feel more of an attachment to our house b/c of all the hard work that went into it.

But how do you define hard work? What if I spent days, months even, "perfecting" a photo in Photoshop? I think I would feel the same level of attachment to that photo as someone developing in a darkroom, no?

I think the seperation comes from the amount of automation we have now, compared to back then, and that everything was done by hand, so to speak. If you started in digital, like me, you can skip all that, and delve deeper.

[DAMphyne]

But then, isn't that dismissing those who started Digitally? The "old fart" thing is nice and everything, but it still comes off as snobbish to me. (I apologize if I am wrong.:o)

I don't think shooting film has anything to do with learning photography. If you think it does, then that's backwards thinking IMHO. I think the notion of being more "intimate" with your photo when developing in a darkroom is overstated. I say this of course having never done it. But I feel it hasn't hurt me at all. None. Zip. In fact, if I had to do all that, I probably would not be into photography right now. I guess you can question my dedication then...;)

That said, I understand where this is coming from. When we redid our house, we designed it, even done some work along side the construction crew, picked out the colors, cabinets, doors...literally everything. It was a labor of love. So rather than moving into a ready-made house, we feel more of an attachment to our house b/c of all the hard work that went into it.

But how do you define hard work? What if I spent days, months even, "perfecting" a photo in Photoshop? I think I would feel the same level of attachment to that photo as someone developing in a darkroom, no?

I guess you missed the sentence after the old fart thing.
Which goes to prove, I was right, you are an elitist.
If I don't perceive things the way you see them, I'm a snob.

[nicksan]

I guess you missed the sentence after the old fart thing.
Which goes to prove, I was right, you are an elitist.
If I don't perceive things the way you see them, I'm a snob.

Me, an elitist? Maybe in another life time.:lol:

Yes, I did see what you wrote after the "old fart" thing...that you are probably wrong.

Your words...not mine.
:lol:;)

[DAMphyne]

You see, my one small advantage to this debate is, I have done both.
Because you haven't done any film photography, you have no clue what the learning process is all about. I can't imagine anyone working for more than an hour on any photo in Photoshop. I have, however spent more than a few hours in the dark, trying to get an image almost perfect. Damn Dust!
This discussion has no answer of right and wrong. I still use PS like it's a darkroom, in the literal sense, I'll never get the understanding of bit depths and pixel complexity. You probably have that all over me, and I don't have the will or determination to climb that learning curve.
I think every photographer should enjoy the process of putting film into the camera,understanding the usefulness and limitations of the film they're using.
Process the film to match the image they have in their mind, and finally, use the magic of printing to reveal the product of their work.

It's the physical content I think is being missed.

That being said, I'll not have the "pleasure" of spending 1 more dread-full hour in a darkroom.
Man, I Love Digital.:)

[nicksan]

You see, my one small advantage to this debate is, I have done both.
Because you haven't done any film photography, you have no clue what the learning process is all about. I can't imagine anyone working for more than an hour on any photo in Photoshop. I have, however spent more than a few hours in the dark, trying to get an image almost perfect. Damn Dust!
This discussion has no answer of right and wrong. I still use PS like it's a darkroom, in the literal sense, I'll never get the understanding of bit depths and pixel complexity. You probably have that all over me, and I don't have the will or determination to climb that learning curve.
I think every photographer should enjoy the process of putting film into the camera,understanding the usefulness and limitations of the film they're using.
Process the film to match the image they have in their mind, and finally, use the magic of printing to reveal the product of their work.

It's the physical content I think is being missed.

That being said, I'll not have the "pleasure" of spending 1 more dread-full hour in a darkroom.
Man, I Love Digital.:)

You are right. I have no idea of what the learning process of developing film is about, much like someone not knowing their way around Photoshop beyond the basics. (I am no PS expert, that's for sure!)

But really, this has nothing to do with the "art" of taking photos and learning how to do so. I am talking about composition, etc. I think that's medium independent.

But isn't all this a means to an end? We all use different tools in different ways to achieve what we think is a nice photo. :D

[DAMphyne]

You are right. I have no idea of what the learning process of developing film is about, much like someone not knowing their way around Photoshop beyond the basics. (I am no PS expert, that's for sure!)

But really, this has nothing to do with the "art" of taking photos and learning how to do so. I am talking about composition, etc. I think that's medium independent.

But isn't all this a means to an end? We all use different tools in different ways to achieve what we think is a nice photo. :D

I couldn't agree with you more.

[yogestee]

OK,,,let's put something into perspective.. I'm an old fart.. I bought my first SLR camera in 1973, turned pro in 1978 and retired from pro photography in 2007.. Film has been good to me as a learning vehicle and as an income..

But,,all said and done, I love digital and doubt I'll ever shoot film again..

There is this young guy who works in my wife's office.. He bought his first DSLR kit, 40D, a few months back.. Everytime he sees me he makes a bee line and we chat about photography and sometimes film comes into the conversation.. I tell him honestly that digital beats film hands down.. He has put some nice work together but is still at the gear aquisition stage thinking that gear makes the photographer.. I have loaned him some of my gear to try out.. I see a lot of me in him when I was at his stage in photography,,very keen and loving his craft..

At this stage, all I can do for him is to give him encouragement..

[rral22]

To the OP: A man cannot speak but he judges himself. Emerson I think.

So what does the fact that you got so upset about the event that you thought it deserved a rant on a photography forum say about you?