Advertiser wants to use my image - help appreciated.

[dolfinack]

I've been contacted by an advertising agency about one of my images on Flickr. They want to sell it to a client. The message is below. How would you respond to this wee beaut? I simply have no idea as I have very limited knowledge of the selling / licensing / copyright world. I am well aware of the probability that its one of hundreds of similar messages they send out every day to average Joes in the hope of getting something for cheap.

I have no probs letting someone use the image, but at the same time I don't want to rip myself off. I have done some reading on the mighty POTN but its such a minefield. I get the impression for something like this a sizeable fee may be in order. I'd love to get a new camera out of it, or maybe payment would only cover a new memory card!!? Any help with my response would be deeply apprecicated. I wouldn't even know how to word it.
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Hello David, I work for Ardmore Advertising in Holywood and
love your shot of the Christmas lights at Belfast City Hall,
I have a client who would be interested in using it in their
advertising. Could you give me an idea of how much you'd
charge for usage please? It's going into press advertising
at present but may go up to billboards.

Thanks.

[Floriantrojer.com]

Congrats on the request. At least ad agencies don't mind to pay most of the time because their client has a good budget anyway!

You have two options of proceeding:

Either license for the press use only by now and hope they get back to you or
offer them to also license the billboard use now. This may give you a nicer sum right away, because seriously, who knows whether they will get back to you at all for a 2nd usage. Better try to seal the deal now.

Major factor influencing price will be: how unique is your image?! If there's 20 similar ones on flickr chances are low you will get a mighty payout.

[dolfinack]

Thanks for the congrats... good point there about the unique images being better paid. It is actually a fairly unique one. He doesn't point out which one of three it is... they're all long exposures and reasonably unique (as far as I can see on flickr anyway), one of a bus coming around a tight corner, its unique alright. The other two have a ferris wheel at night doing its thing. Linky http://www.flickr.com/search/?ss=2&w=66735065%40N00&q=belfast+city+hall+christmas&m=text

How mighty would mighty be though? I mean if there is potential for billboards that kind of wording makes my ears perk up a little. Again I just have no idea how to proceed, I can picture them all having a laugh around over coffee at my ridiculous price suggestion!

[jacuff]

Laws are different everywhere, so what I say may not necessarily be true for you. It's up to you to find that out. I am in the US.

While I may have had the right to take the photo because I was on public land, I would not have the right to license it for Advertising use without a property release from the recognizable location. I could use the photo for Editorial all I want, but to use it commercially, I'd need a release to have my bases covered.

[dolfinack]

Laws are different everywhere, so what I say may not necessarily be true for you. It's up to you to find that out. I am in the US.

While I may have had the right to take the photo because I was on public land, I would not have the right to license it for Advertising use without a property release from the recognizable location. I could use the photo for Editorial all I want, but to use it commercially, I'd need a release to have my bases covered.

Indeed Sir, a fair point. Hadn't thought of that... its of a government building, the City Hall taken from outside the grounds, not sure how that would figure in all of it... must try to find out, or maybe someone here would know. Cheers buddy, see this is why I love POTN.

[chakalakasp]

Dolfinack -- you need to ask them exactly what the use is for. What is "press use"? You need to know size, placement, printrun, duration, location, etc. With that information I can probably help you with a ballpark industry standard quote. Of course, billboard use would be a separate use that would cost more, and would also need details like duration, location (local, regional, worldwide?), etc.

Basically at this point you need to get as much info from them as possible about how they want to use the image.

Ardmore advertising is a real agency and they probably contacted you because they are really interested; I highly doubt they sent out lots of these. Agencies tend to know what they're looking for, and if they're looking on Flickr they've already looked a LOT in other places without finding what they needed.

[dolfinack]

Dolfinack -- you need to ask them exactly what the use is for. What is "press use"? You need to know size, placement, printrun, duration, location, etc. With that information I can probably help you with a ballpark industry standard quote. Of course, billboard use would be a separate use that would cost more, and would also need details like duration, location (local, regional, worldwide?), etc.

Basically at this point you need to get as much info from them as possible about how they want to use the image.

Ardmore advertising is a real agency and they probably contacted you because they are really interested; I highly doubt they sent out lots of these. Agencies tend to know what they're looking for, and if they're looking on Flickr they've already looked a LOT in other places without finding what they needed.

Thank you so much for this, very helpful indeed, I may well be in contact with you soon.

[dolfinack]

okies... update, I have stalled them on a quote and politely request the intended print run, size, placement, location etc as Chakalasp suggested, waiting for a reply.

Also the point raised by Jacuff about the permission for commercial gain is still to be resolved. As the image is of the City Hall in Belfast, I am assuming the client is the Belfast city council advertising the city for Christmas. They do a fair bit of advertising that time of year to get the shoppers in etc. If indeed it is them I am working on the thinking that the whole commercial permission thing is unnessecary as they own the building anyway. Regardless of who the client is I reckon this guy contacting me will have all this covered already seeing as its his job and everything!! Anyway no doubt i'll be posting back here for help on round two when he responds :)

Thanks for all the help so far.

[dolfinack]

Another update... this is the reply I received. Now, the Belfast Telegraph is the biggest paper in the capital. The Andersonstown News group comprises four further very popular papers that cover the rest of the city. Between these five, the coverage is pretty darned huge. The billboards are greater Belfast... anyone want to chip in with a rough idea of a quote for this?? Because I clearly don't have a notion! Thanks POTN.

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David, the usage would be as follows: Could you tell me what you would charge for this?


Belfast Telegraph
1 insertion
Front Page Solus

Andersonstown News Group
1 insertion
1/4 Page FC


Outdoor :

Streetliners (incl production)
70 panels
1x 2 week cycle

Greater Belfast

[Box Brownie]

Phew what great opportunity.

I read once a while back that the NUJ has a good rates guide main page here http://media.gn.apc.org/feesguide/ regional newspapers here http://www.londonfreelance.org/feesguide/phregrat.html cannot find any sort of 'list' for billboards usage so hopefully someone can point you right?

Best of luck :D

[torvaterra]

Congrats! I have a link that might help you decide on pricing: http://photographersindex.com/stockprice.htm

Its a good place to get a starting point. There might be other sites out there like this too but thats the only one that I know of. The prices are in US currency though. Heres an example of how they price things out for you:

Type of Use:: Advertising
Specific Use:: Billboard
Press Run:: 11 to 100
Size:: Full page or Major Illustration
Low Price:: $1,400.00
Average Price:: $2,100.00
High Price:: $2,800.00
Survey = 124
One Year Use, Reduce prices for 6 month use.

[chakalakasp]

I don't think that's a billboard; streetliners usually refers to something on the (exterior) side of a bus. Though that quote you gave isn't too far off.

[chakalakasp]

Phew what great opportunity.

I read once a while back that the NUJ has a good rates guide main page here http://media.gn.apc.org/feesguide/ regional newspapers here http://www.londonfreelance.org/feesguide/phregrat.html cannot find any sort of 'list' for billboards usage so hopefully someone can point you right?

Best of luck :D

These rates are mostly for editorial use; the agency contacting the OP is looking for advertorial use, which is an entirely different (and much higher) price structure.

[dolfinack]

Starting to think about £1000 for the lot, for two weeks use in papers (Combined circulation 100,000) and transit billboards... how does this sound as a ballpark figure to throw at them? See what they say?

[Floriantrojer.com]

Congrats on having them go that far with you. Business talk now.

Imho, 1000 GBP seems a bit low, but to be honest every single user in here has a different feeling about this I guess, and it is YOU who has them on the hook, not me or anyone else.

The question is what would you be happy with?! 1000 pounds is a lot of money coming from a hobby, so if that satisfies you, way to go, congrats!! :D

If the agency is local, you may even get some repetitive work out of it, just make the suggestion - if they go along with you - that you'd like to do further work for them if they need a motivated freelancer. Who knows where things lead. Could be a nice way of securing some future income that way.

All about networking really. Good luck with whatever you decide to charge!

[Harlz]

This was a helpful thread I have to say, thanks guys. :)

You see I have had a similar thing happen to me just today. Of course I spent some time furiously searching Google for some answers on what sort of figure to quote. At least now I have some idea.

[Cosha]

Wow, id be happy with £1000 for a picture - new camera or L glass for me :D

[dolfinack]

Congrats on having them go that far with you. Business talk now.

Imho, 1000 GBP seems a bit low, but to be honest every single user in here has a different feeling about this I guess, and it is YOU who has them on the hook, not me or anyone else.

The question is what would you be happy with?! 1000 pounds is a lot of money coming from a hobby, so if that satisfies you, way to go, congrats!! :D

If the agency is local, you may even get some repetitive work out of it, just make the suggestion - if they go along with you - that you'd like to do further work for them if they need a motivated freelancer. Who knows where things lead. Could be a nice way of securing some future income that way.

All about networking really. Good luck with whatever you decide to charge!

Thanks for that. Further work would sure be nice but there are simply stacks of photographers in the area. Point well made and taken on board. I realise it may be a low (ish) price considering it's for advertising which is potentially going to be seen by hundreds of thousands. I just don't don't want to scare them away, cash is super tight right now, I could do with a wad coming in. Point well made and taken on board. Appreciate the reply :)

This was a helpful thread I have to say, thanks guys. :)

You see I have had a similar thing happen to me just today. Of course I spent some time furiously searching Google for some answers on what sort of figure to quote. At least now I have some idea.

Fun isn't it!? Money for nothing... well, an hour or so out and obut snapping and a wee bit of photoshop. Very flattering I must say. Hope it goes well for you. Chakalakasp's advice on the Getty site was particularily eye-opening. Follow that suggestion and have your eyes widened by some of the quote that site comes up with. Good luck!

[dolfinack]

Update again...

got this:

Hi David

Unfortunately the Client doesn’t have anywhere near that kind of budget available for this.

Thank you for coming back to me though, if anything changes I will be in touch.

Have a good weekend.

Katie

Hmmm this is precisely what I didn't want to happen. So am going to have to go back with something along the lines of "ok, what kind of budget does your client have?"

Anybody come up with something along those lines that sounds a bit more positive?

[chakalakasp]

LOL, well, if the client doesn't have that kind of budget, they wouldn't be looking to run banners on the sides of buses or inserts in a hundred thousand newspapers utilizing a major advertising agency. That stuff ain't cheap. Depends on how much you want the money, but I'd let them pound sand unless they came back.

Ultimately they found your image because they wanted it, not the other way around. So your image has value to them; if they could easily find another image, they wouldn't be contacting you, they'd be going with a more established source like a stock agency. However, it is possible they're cheapskates.

[Box Brownie]

I offer my 2p's worth purely on the "if I were in your shoes" thinking.

1) The logical question is - what is their budget for the project and what within that is the budget set aside for such a prime image? Be ready to qualify your quote by refering to industry standards as guided above by the others but do not state that/them now ~ a good agency surely knows how much should be costed for these sort of jobs. Just be ready to make the point.

1a) If they decline to answer that IMO you should just walk away.

2) If you get back a figure that is maybe acceptable in money terms suggest a quid pro quo for "value" to you as "they" are a local organisation is some way to get a bold credit line, a free half page advert that they design for you placed in a journal/magazine for a few months (note here not a one off) etc In other words something that has low cost to them but higher preceived value to you?

In other words negotiate professionally to show that you are serious about your images and their value in the marketplace ~ but like all things be ready to walk if it does not "sit right" with you.

Lastly, I read hereabouts and other fora of togs that undermine the value of images used commercially by selling their images too cheaply because they are flattered that "their image was chosen". If is good enough to be wanted, it is good enough to be licensed & paid for on agreeable terms, isn't it :D

[ClickHappy]

I too find it odd that they don't have it in the budget for the image when they are obviously shelling out a ton of money for the advertising alone.

I'd stick to the original price, as it seems fair, but you may reply with a quote for each usage type separately with the total coming to the original 1000 pounds. That way, if they really are on a tight budget, they can pick which usage types they really want (or can afford) and that leaves the door open later for them to purchase the license for the other usage types if they are just trying to lowball you.

Good luck!