taken the plunge into the business

[chantu]

Hi Everyone,

I've taken the plunge into the Photography business. My initial target clients would be family-oriented events such ball games, fairs (see link), etc. I'd appreciated if you could take a quick look at my gallery (zenfolio.com), and give feedback about the overall appearance, quality photos, options for selling, or anything else you can think of.

Here's the link:
http://wesleylee99.zenfolio.com/p1015425667

These shots were from a Multicultural Fair at my kid's elementary school this past weekend. The PTA setup a booth for a harvest festival look.

I haven't got any orders yet, and I'm wondering if potential customers want to see something before actually ordering. To this end, I'm thinking of printing out a few samples for people to see (and gauge my quality as a photographer). Another question, since I intend to do local events, would taking orders directly (via email, face-to-face) rather simply using the website to do all the ordering handling reduce the barriers to ordering. I'm curious what you folks do. Thanks.

[chantu]

Bumpity Bump.

Appreciated any comments to an aspiring pro photographer. Thanks.

[siddr20]

I think getting your name out there firstly will be the most important part and also the hardest part. Like you said, people would like to see your work before choosing you. So do print a few samples out to show them.

In regards to the website, i highly suggest you get a new domain name. I dont think people will ever remember your website esp all those numbers.

Thats the first step I would do.


Ps im no pro photographer nor do i have a business..

[chantu]

I think getting your name out there firstly will be the most important part and also the hardest part. Like you said, people would like to see your work before choosing you. So do print a few samples out to show them.

In regards to the website, i highly suggest you get a new domain name. I dont think people will ever remember your website esp all those numbers.

Thats the first step I would do.



Yes, I definitely did not like those "numbers" in the link. I found out after the fact that zenfolio has an option to replace those auto-generated numbers with a user-friendly name. Unfortunately, I told everyone about the link beforehand (created an empty folder), so it would be too late change without causing too much confusion. I would like to get a real domain name eventually but for now I use the link: wesleylee99.zenfolio/<reasonable_name> would be OK. This has my real name in it and is similar to my email address.

-Wes

[siddr20]

Purchasing a domain name and server space will not cost you an arm and leg. Infact its so cheap that all i pay is around 100 AU dollars a year (it could be cheaper, but i bought a server with more space etc etc).

You want a domain name that people will remember. Im not to sure if people will remember wesleylee99.zenfolio/...

But its up to you. Im just suggesting and giving you my thoughts.


Thought about business cards?

Thought about prices for each photo?

Maybe a services page on your website? That is exactly what your services offer?


Im just brain storming here.

gdluck.

[chantu]

Purchasing a domain name and server space will not cost you an arm and leg. Infact its so cheap that all i pay is around 100 AU dollars a year (it could be cheaper, but i bought a server with more space etc etc).

You want a domain name that people will remember. Im not to sure if people will remember wesleylee99.zenfolio/...

But its up to you. Im just suggesting and giving you my thoughts.


Thought about business cards?

Thought about prices for each photo?

Maybe a services page on your website? That is exactly what your services offer?


Im just brain storming here.

gdluck.

Thanks for the ideas. I'm not against a nice domain name. It's just I'm barely catching up figuring out all the features of zenfolio which has some nice features for selling stuff. Initially, I imagine most of the folks I sell to will be directly selling, and giving people a link to where the photos are. Just last night I was peddling this photo (see link), and manage to see 12 of them at a football practice (and that's a small percentage of the familes involved in football).

Pano shot:
http://wesleylee99.zenfolio.com/kodiaks_group_shots

I sold this shot (panorama shot) for $10 on a 5" x 15" paper.

-Wes

[neil_r]

An honest view, your lighting is not good you have really harsh shadows and if you are going to photograph people in hats you really need to get at least some light under the brims and onto their faces.

[Frugal]

An honest view, your lighting is not good you have really harsh shadows and if you are going to photograph people in hats you really need to get at least some light under the brims and onto their faces.

+1 The background should be waaay farther behind your subjects and out of focus. While this was likely impossible at the fair, but anyone checking you out will assume that this is your typical setup for a portrait and pass you by. Lose the painted background. Build a portfolio by donating your photographic skills to friends and family. Only put your very best work on your business website. -quality not quantity is key

HTH

[chantu]

An honest view, your lighting is not good you have really harsh shadows and if you are going to photograph people in hats you really need to get at least some light under the brims and onto their faces.

Some of the initial shots were filled just with the pop up flash but then later switched to my 580ex for fill. If you look a bit later (further down in the gallery) I believe the fill is better, and get the catch lights of the eyes. I'm learning ...

[chantu]

+1 The background should be waaay farther behind your subjects and out of focus. While this was likely impossible at the fair, but anyone checking you out will assume that this is your typical setup for a portrait and pass you by. Lose the painted background. Build a portfolio by donating your photographic skills to friends and family. Only put your very best work on your business website. -quality not quantity is key

HTH

I doubt even at f2.8 I would get much bokeh with this setup. You may think the setup a bit cheesy but that is what was provide. The setup was for a typical portrait. Donating my photos/skills? Actually been doing this for years and decided to cash in (a little bit).

[Frugal]

You may think the setup a bit cheesy but that is what was provideIt's not that the shoot was cheesy - I understand why. The problem is that they are the first pictures you see on your site


If you look a bit later (further down in the gallery) I believe the fill is betterNo one will look further down in the gallery if you don't have your best pics "above the fold" on your home page

[MJPhotos24]

Domain Name: Sorry but this is just lazy - the domain you're using is way too long and just plain out annoying to customers. You should be doing everything you can to make it easy on them. 1and1.com has domains for like $6 since you don't need hosting as you have the zen account. It takes 10 minutes to do and at that cost it's plain out unacceptable not to IMPO. If you get a better name people can still use the one with the numbers, both will work.

5x15 for $10: Seriously? How much was cost because that seems very low even for this area where prices are beyond lower than the national average. Only pano I was able to find close to that size, but not exact, the cost was $7.95.

Vignetting: Overused

IQ: Honestly, snapshots at this point that pretty much anyone can do. There's vignetting into people, cut off heads, crops that make it so you can't tell where they are, one girl cut off from the rest of the group, poor lighting, etc. Need to separate yourself from the average Joe to start a business and offer people something they couldn't do on there own.

Ball Games & Events: You say you want to do events and maybe ball games...do you know ball games are not easy? I do 150-200 games a year, they're not simple! Do you know events are difficult as well? It's not just going in and snapping some shots, you have to have a goal and vision and as mentioned be able to get what others can't or don't envision.

Fair: The background doesn't bug me, it's cheesy but standard. I'd rather see a better one than that sheet and sure you can come up with something. Since you said it was provided I'm assuming you had no choice, or at least felt like you didn't (?) Next time be prepared, ask what they want to use as the background and adjust it to fit what you think would be better. What bugs me about the fair shots is simply poor lighting, people squinting, and not very good posing.

With the way it's set up there's absolutely no excuse not to do this in a shaded area since the bg is fake and provided. "But there's no shaded areas!" is the only excuse someone can have for this and all I can is bull, hit Wal-Mart or some store and buy a 10x10 canopy. That of course brings the question of light - well you want better light than the 580 can provide but it will do in a pinch. Great flash that I use for on the go shots but not stuff like this, always using strobes and an umbrella or soft box nowadays wondering why I ever did not. "But wait, I can't afford that" - it's a business and if you don't spend it you're not going to make it. Don't need to start there if you know how to use the flash right (many do NOT), but it's somewhere you should be looking to get into in the future.

Pricing/Downloads: $3 for the original file - are you $*#@ING KIDDING ME?? You realize you have to price these for the fact you'll make no print sales at all right? Print prices are pretty low to...I live in a very bad area for selling prints as the economy was bad even during the boom 90's and your prices are lower than any around here. Were these prices randomly selected or did you do any research in your area first?

Orders: For the fair type events it's best to have an order form to parents BEFORE the pictures are actually taken. This way you have money in your hand already to do the work involved. Spec work is declining and it wasn't good to begin with. Online is great but should be for events where you can't get order forms to parents and if it's re-orders than it's at a higher cost.

Freebies for Friends/Family: Never done that suggestion, never would do that suggestion! They'll expect it free the rest of their life! Hell, the one I did work for never paid me and it was cheap - never going to see that money and just got sick of asking for it. It was starting out and I didn't know any better (ah, the good ol' film days). I'd much rather practice with strangers or if it has to be friends/family let them know immediately this is a temporary thing for learning purposes. You can always work for an experienced photographer to learn from which serves better than this anyways.

Overall: I think you're taking a bad route at trying to take the plunge. You seem unprepared in taking any steps of making money from this profession. It's not easy to make a living, or even side income, in photography and only getting worse with the market being flooded by people diving in before they should and every Joe Schmoe buying a camera to take to events and hand the images over free like parents often do. You have to know a lot before jumping into the profession and a bad reputation hurts you just as much as a good reputation helps you. If you jump in unprepared without knowledge of IQ, how to do ordering, prices, and the MANY other things it takes to do it right it won't be good.

This will probably be viewed as harsh but let's face it, when the word BUSINESS comes into play it's the only way to go. You can only get so far on friends and family telling you how great you are as A) they don't want hurt your feelings and B) they have no clue what they're talking about anyways!

[chantu]

Giving it to me with both guns , I appreciate it. My comments:

Domain Name: Sorry but this is just lazy - the domain you're using is way too long and just plain out annoying to customers. You should be doing everything you can to make it easy on them. 1and1.com has domains for like $6 since you don't need hosting as you have the zen account. It takes 10 minutes to do and at that cost it's plain out unacceptable not to IMPO. If you get a better name people can still use the one with the numbers, both will work.

OK, OK, zenfolio has a feature to take out the random numbers. I'll work on a domain name once I think of a good and unique name.

5x15 for $10: Seriously? How much was cost because that seems very low even for this area where prices are beyond lower than the national average. Only pano I was able to find close to that size, but not exact, the cost was $7.95.

Admittedly it is cheap. But since no one really knows me. This was my first step. The pano was actually my best seller since it got a little of everyone. I still have a 100% marked up with a metallic finish (assuming I amortize the S&H over a number of customers


IQ: Honestly, snapshots at this point that pretty much anyone can do. There's vignetting into people, cut off heads, crops that make it so you can't tell where they are, one girl cut off from the rest of the group, poor lighting, etc. Need to separate yourself from the average Joe to start a business and offer people something they couldn't do on there own.

Most of the "people" were parents with P&S, though one guy had a Nikon D3 using it like a P&S. I applied the vignetting globally to many of the photos to save time. The background appeared fairly bright so I wanted to tone it down a bit. If the girl you're referring to is the football shot, yes this was a big mistake, this truly was a quickie snapshot. This one was really one for the parents that missed out in ordering photos from the pros. And cut off heads???? None of the 'set' shots have this. You looking at the right gallery?

Ball Games & Events: You say you want to do events and maybe ball games...do you know ball games are not easy? I do 150-200 games a year, they're not simple! Do you know events are difficult as well? It's not just going in and snapping some shots, you have to have a goal and vision and as mentioned be able to get what others can't or don't envision.

I not a expert at this but I've photographing little league for the past 4 years and 1000's of shots. I know how difficult to capture the shot - anticipation, fast shutter speeds, AI focus, watching out I don't beaned by the ball ...

Fair: The background doesn't bug me, it's cheesy but standard. I'd rather see a better one than that sheet and sure you can come up with something. Since you said it was provided I'm assuming you had no choice, or at least felt like you didn't (?) Next time be prepared, ask what they want to use as the background and adjust it to fit what you think would be better. What bugs me about the fair shots is simply poor lighting, people squinting, and not very good posing.

Admittedly the position was not ideal - subjects facing the sun, but the PTA (not me) set this up. But really, these were just some causal shots like you see at fairs and some photog asks you if want a shot with "mickey" (or your favorite character)



Pricing/Downloads: $3 for the original file - are you $*#@ING KIDDING ME?? You realize you have to price these for the fact you'll make no print sales at all right? Print prices are pretty low to...I live in a very bad area for selling prints as the economy was bad even during the boom 90's and your prices are lower than any around here. Were these prices randomly selected or did you do any research in your area first?

Yes, they are low. But this was just a school event of probably about a couple hundred people. Since people really didn't come to the event to get their picture taken (and we never done this before), I thought the download was an simple option to get something out of the event.



Overall: I think you're taking a bad route at trying to take the plunge. You seem unprepared in taking any steps of making money from this profession. It's not easy to make a living, or even side income, in photography and only getting worse with the market being flooded by people diving in before they should and every Joe Schmoe buying a camera to take to events and hand the images over free like parents often do. You have to know a lot before jumping into the profession and a bad reputation hurts you just as much as a good reputation helps you. If you jump in unprepared without knowledge of IQ, how to do ordering, prices, and the MANY other things it takes to do it right it won't be good.

This will probably be viewed as harsh but let's face it, when the word BUSINESS comes into play it's the only way to go. You can only get so far on friends and family telling you how great you are as A) they don't want hurt your feelings and B) they have no clue what they're talking about anyways!

I appreciate your frankness (but you could work on some bedside manner). I believe I know a thing or two about IQ (and continue to work on the craft). Believe it or not, I've made some money from the event and many have commented positively about the shots.

[darksike]

don't know if I miss this. I know domain name was mentioned already.
I read you mentioned about your url as a bit confusing. I just setup my zenfolio account 3 days ago and was able to get a domain for $14 at godaddy and it directs to your site and the url will always be your domain. http://www.actphotography.net will redirect to zenfolio, but that's with the middle of the 3 option ($40/year), yours it the top right?
also, it reallly helps that I have 1 email with 100 forward email with that amount so when you make your business card, it'll match with your domain, not @hotmail.com, gmail, etc.

[MJPhotos24]

Giving it to me with both guns , I appreciate it.

I usually have another stashed on my ankle but only take it out for special occasions.

OK, OK, zenfolio has a feature to take out the random numbers. I'll work on a domain name once I think of a good and unique name.

Whatever your business name will be or is, WesPhotography.com is taken already but look at other options that play off that or use your full name if you want. I chose MJ Photos at first and had an annoying url like shorturl.com/mjphotos - it took awhile to get out of that before using my full name as I thought the previous was unprofessional sounding - and the fact I couldn't think of a better one that I'd like in long term. Once you have a name out there people associate it with everything you do, even though I use my own name I've been asked several times "oh you work for Mike?" - usual answer - "sure do, the guys a jerk". So that's why it's important to have all this stuff worked out before you dive in.

Domains were more expensive when I started so had a freebie for a bit as well, http://www.geocities.com/mikejanesphotography/ still works!! Nothing but problems so find one as a temp. Right now I have 3 that point to my site....at $6 you're not losing much!


Admittedly it is cheap. But since no one really knows me. This was my first step. The pano was actually my best seller since it got a little of everyone. I still have a 100% marked up with a metallic finish (assuming I amortize the S&H over a number of customers

You're not the only one that thinks this but in all honesty it's a poor excuse newbies make up. We all did it to start, I know I did, and it just wasn't worth it. Pricing structure should be researched and not based on wanting to get your name out there. Getting your name out there is part of your marketing and not pricing. Honestly you don't want to be known as the cheap guy, or the way too expensive guy either - find the middle ground for the market and people will think it's fair with very few exceptions. 100% markup sounds like a lot when you base it off your print cost but you have to include time, work, the wear and tear on your equipment, etc. I'd include insurance, studio rental, etc. but assuming you're not that far yet.


Most of the "people" were parents with P&S, though one guy had a Nikon D3 using it like a P&S. I applied the vignetting globally to many of the photos to save time. The background appeared fairly bright so I wanted to tone it down a bit. If the girl you're referring to is the football shot, yes this was a big mistake, this truly was a quickie snapshot. This one was really one for the parents that missed out in ordering photos from the pros. And cut off heads???? None of the 'set' shots have this. You looking at the right gallery?

I believe it was the football shot...there is one of the mothers in the fair shots with the top of her head cut off in the hair I remember but don't have the time to go look through again as all this is being written in a hurry. As for the background, well - this all goes back to IQ, if it was too hot you didn't have the settings right. I see vignetting on a LOT of shots, not just the fair ones so that's why I say too much. Not sure how much time you had to be there and set up but if you couldn't get it your way things should of been adjusted on the spot. If there was time to set up a scene and get a backdrop there was time to scope the venue and figure things out.

I not a expert at this but I've photographing little league for the past 4 years and 1000's of shots. I know how difficult to capture the shot - anticipation, fast shutter speeds, AI focus, watching out I don't beaned by the ball ...

Those are four basic things anyone should know - there's a lot more to it than that, especially nowadays with everyone owning a camera. I took four years to learn before thinking about this as a business as well, yet still learned the most since that day and always trying to learn more. You never stop, you're never good enough, you should always want to improve. I take this attitude from my playing/coaching career - the day you think you're good enough you should quit...there's always room for improvement.

Admittedly the position was not ideal - subjects facing the sun, but the PTA (not me) set this up. But really, these were just some causal shots like you see at fairs and some photog asks you if want a shot with "mickey" (or your favorite character)

Be a perfectionalist - get there early and explain why you'd like to try it another way. You have to explain it in a manner not to make it sound like they don't know what they're doing but in most cases they don't and need the photographer to know what to do for the best results. Always listen though as the person in charge sometimes has great ideas that just need a little help. This is another thing many photogs do to start out with, trust me! You should have the knowledge and a vision, even the simple shots. Sometimes it can't be avoided but most of the time it can. Been doing assembly line photography like this for awhile to, but in sports, and it can be done - hell I just changed my entire system, had a hiccup of IQ in there for a bit IMO (but the parents still loved them) and now things are starting to work smoother again. It's a never ending process, sometimes you'll fail - it happens, embrace and learn from it.

Yes, they are low. But this was just a school event of probably about a couple hundred people. Since people really didn't come to the event to get their picture taken (and we never done this before), I thought the download was an simple option to get something out of the event.

It sounds like it was planned a little bit ahead of time so far, which makes the above null IMO. Not sure how far ahead you knew you'd be doing pics and it would differ for how long but this price structure is only going to hurt you. What happens at the next event you do where you plan on raising your prices and all of a sudden you just pi$$ed off a lot of parents thinking they were getting the $3 download. Price structures are not to be taken lightly and you can't just raise/lower without thinking about it.


I appreciate your frankness (but you could work on some bedside manner). I believe I know a thing or two about IQ (and continue to work on the craft). Believe it or not, I've made some money from the event and many have commented positively about the shots.

I've never been accused of not being straight forward and too the point. None of this is to personally attack in any sense as it's all mistakes that many pros, including myself, have made. So why would anyone want to do the same old mistakes already made when they can avoid them and do things right? It's insane like Einstein said - Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

IQ, I can understand why you'd take offense to this but I have to question it. When first joining a board I had the same thing happen and turned out they were all right and I was wrong...not a bad thing, you learn a lot more from what you did wrong than you do right. Anyways, nothing really sticks out to me in the event photography, and there's no sports on the site as well. Those are the two areas you mentioned so those are the only I'll bring up - though do like some of the landscape stuff I saw.

So, just wondering - what shots do you think on there are you best? Portfolio if you will, which I need to do one to now that I think of it.

Good read...

http://www.sportsshooter.com/news/2082

[Hogloff]

Chantu, rather than get defensive, re-read MJ's advice carefully. It will save you a lot of time and needless effort. My two bits...the shots in your zenfollio account are closer to simple snapshots than portraits. Personally, if I was a parent, I would not buy any of them as I most likely could have done just as well with my P&S. Please don't take this wrong...but look seriously at those photos and learn from the mistakes in them. That is the only way you'll get better and successful. Good luck.

[Viffer06]

Chantu, rather than get defensive, re-read MJ's advice carefully. It will save you a lot of time and needless effort. My two bits...the shots in your zenfollio account are closer to simple snapshots than portraits. Personally, if I was a parent, I would not buy any of them as I most likely could have done just as well with my P&S. Please don't take this wrong...but look seriously at those photos and learn from the mistakes in them. That is the only way you'll get better and successful. Good luck.

+1 and +2 here

[chantu]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for taking all the time for all the comments. Sometimes criticism is a hard pill to swallow. This is a tough group for sure, but I'm open minded.

-Wes