I'm still blowing out in the sun . . . getting frustrated . . .

[markubig]

I posted my "in the sun" blow-out problems a while ago in this thread:
http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=66896&page=1&pp=20

I got some helpful advice and tried to take them into consideration for next time I went back into the sun.

SOOOO . . . was back in the sun today at a family BBQ and got the same result . . . I know that if I had the sun behind her, it would have been best; however, the situation didn't allow for that as she was standing on the deck and I was down on the grass and I wanted to shoot her from where I was standing. It was about 7pm and the sun was just behind my left shoulder. I was using my 50/1.8 and didn't have any ND or CP filters for it (only got a CP for my tamron). I used partial metering to meter her skin. i was in Av mode with an aperture of f/4. By the looks of it, maybe I should have stopped down to f/16 or something BUT what if I wanted the narrow DOF for nice bokeh at say f/1.8? . . . the picture would have been more blown out . . . Is there anything I should have done differently?

Shooting in the sun is really killing me . . . i almost prefer to shoot indoors now as I have no idea what I am doing outdoors.

Here is the EXIF info:
20D w/ EF 50mm f/1.8 II
Av Mode
1/800s
f/4.0
ISO100
Flash: Did not fire
Metering: Partial

[lostdoggy]

Try this test . Useexposure bracketing @ 1stop and @ 2stop. Compare the photo. You can also chimp the shot, check the histogram see if it is banked to the right. If it is then Av -1 or -2. If it is banked to thr Right the Av +1 or +2.

The other thing is if the sun is in back off the subject you would have to do a AEL using Partial metering. Most of the background will be blown away. Its better if the sun is toward the left or right front of subject. Then the metering won't be so far off.

You can also take a up close meter of the subject and set the setting in manual mode.

If I have a choice between under exposing and over exposing I would rather under expose. Of coarse I would like tobe correctly expose for those who want to comment on the last statement.!!!

My 0.02.

G'Luck

[mgbeach]

Go ahead and use that flash! In Av mode play around with the FEC settings and you should be better off. Here's one in a very similar situation with the same lens at f/1.8
http://gallery.photo.net/photo/3349412-lg.jpg

[lostdoggy]

Wow can I borrow that flash!!!

[lostdoggy]

It seems Mark has problems with the flash too!!!

[markubig]

Thanks, mgbeach . that's a great photo . . . what is your EXIF info for this photo? also, what equipment are you using? is the flash in the direct position or bounce position with a diffuser?

Go ahead and use that flash! In Av mode play around with the FEC settings and you should be better off. Here's one in a very similar situation with the same lens at f/1.8
http://gallery.photo.net/photo/3349412-lg.jpg

[J Rabin]

"sun" blow-out problems
Mark.
Do you have access to a good tutorial on "high contrast exposure challenges?" The problem you present is one of the reasons why auto reduction fill flash was invented. There have always been the same four solutions when the contrast range of the setting (anything above, say 6+ f/stops) exceeds the contrast range of the film or sensor:

1. Wait for a different time of day/different quality of light.
2. Move subject to diffuse shade.
3. Carry/use diffusers/reflectors (and assistant!) to balance the lighting ratio.
4. Try using Canon E-TTL fill flash in this order:
a. put camera in M;
b. meter ambient background bright light;
c. turn on flash;
d. get any focus point lock on a midtone on the subject.
DO NOT USE FLR WITH CANON E-TTL! FLR leads to inconsistent results with Canon;
e. bang away;
f. adjust based on histogram.

If you use a low f/stop, use focal plane hi-speed flash setting.
Since No. 1 is unacceptible for candid/PJ efforts, and Nos. 2 & 3 kill the spontenaity of candid settings, No. 4 is your ticket to success. Still may get shiny bald heads, etc.
Works for me every day. I do not understand the resistance to flash that I read. Get a decent shot. Move on. Works better with any good flash, like a used 550EX, etc.

[rent]

i dont think this has anything to do with if or how the flash was used.

mark: you were using partial metering in this picture (only metering in the circle area in the middle of the view finder) and it could have metered off of her dark hair or dark shirt for the most part thus over-exposing the rest of the picture. for such a scene i wouuld have used the Evaluative mode instead.

-alex

[mgbeach]

Thanks, mgbeach . that's a great photo . . . what is your EXIF info for this photo? also, what equipment are you using? is the flash in the direct position or bounce position with a diffuser?


this one was on Av mode at f/1.8. Shutter speed ended up being 1/800sec. I have the hacked firmware on the Digital Rebel using the 420ex. It doesn't record amount of FEC, but I think it was about +2/3. No exposure compensation was used, and I was on ISO200 with AWB. The Stofen Omnibounce was on and flash was straight ahead.

edit..the rebel uses Pattern metering.

[rdenney]

I leave my 10D set to about a stop under all the time as a standard exposure compensation. I check my histograms, and nearly always it's all there with that approach.

Remember that digital is like slides in that you expose for the highlights and process for the shadows. You can pull shadows up remarkably well, but when highlights are gone they are gone.

And I shoot RAW.

Rick "who thinks the effective ISO is a little faster than the setting" Denney

[J Rabin]

i dont think this has anything to do with if or how the flash was used.
Hi Alex. I was aware Mark DIDN'T use flash. That's part of his frustration getting a satisfactory exposure in a hi contrast back light setting. No metering (evaluative or partial) or exposure compensation "strategy" alone will provide a satisfactory result. One needs light modification in hi contrast settings. If you expose for highlights in backlight, the faces are darkened. Ditto for -EC. If you expose the subject the sky will burn out. It's a normal high contrast setting that can't be captured without modification. J.

[markubig]

Mark.
Do you have access to a good tutorial on "high contrast exposure challenges?" The problem you present is one of the reasons why auto reduction fill flash was invented. There have always been the same four solutions when the contrast range of the setting (anything above, say 6+ f/stops) exceeds the contrast range of the film or sensor:

1. Wait for a different time of day/different quality of light.
2. Move subject to diffuse shade.
3. Carry/use diffusers/reflectors (and assistant!) to balance the lighting ratio.
4. Try using Canon E-TTL fill flash in this order:
a. put camera in M;
b. meter ambient background bright light;
c. turn on flash;
d. get any focus point lock on a midtone on the subject.
DO NOT USE FLR WITH CANON E-TTL! FLR leads to inconsistent results with Canon;
e. bang away;
f. adjust based on histogram.

If you use a low f/stop, use focal plane hi-speed flash setting.
Since No. 1 is unacceptible for candid/PJ efforts, and Nos. 2 & 3 kill the spontenaity of candid settings, No. 4 is your ticket to success. Still may get shiny bald heads, etc.
Works for me every day. I do not understand the resistance to flash that I read. Get a decent shot. Move on. Works better with any good flash, like a used 550EX, etc.Hi J. This was very helpful, thank you . . . i guess my problem is my assumption that I did not need my flash with the abundance of sunlight. I do have the 550ex flash, so I guess it will be getting more work in the sunlight. I will try your methods next time out, but I do have a couple of additional quesitons for you:


What is FLR? Focus Lock Recompose?
Your steps say to meter ambient light first, then turn on the flash? Am I supposed to turn the flash off everytime I meter?
Is Direct-on flash OK, or will diffusers provide better results in this case?
Thanks again for your help . . . I can't wait for my next day taking pictures under the sun.

[rent]

J: i think you are absolutely right. when i saw "partial" metering it automatically sets off a flag. but looking at the entire scene again, your suggestion with flash would definately produce a better picture. -alex

Hi Alex. I was aware Mark DIDN'T use flash. That's part of his frustration getting a satisfactory exposure in a hi contrast back light setting. No metering (evaluative or partial) or exposure compensation "strategy" alone will provide a satisfactory result. One needs light modification in hi contrast settings. If you expose for highlights in backlight, the faces are darkened. Ditto for -EC. If you expose the subject the sky will burn out. It's a normal high contrast setting that can't be captured without modification. J.

[soupdragon]

Firstly: I would have spot metered on the right cheek to achieve correct exposure for the skin tones, or at least the subjects face. Admittedly this would have caused the distant side of the subjects face to be in shadow.

Secondly: I don't think you can do very much with the large white surface in the background even with fill flash.

[J Rabin]

What is FLR? Focus Lock Recompose?
Your steps say to meter ambient light first, then turn on the flash? Am I supposed to turn the flash off everytime I meter?
Is Direct-on flash OK, or will diffusers provide better results in this case?
[/list]
Mark. Went back and read your post. You have a 20D with E-TTL II. Lucky guy. I did not read that earlier. So you are lucky and do NOT need to turn off the flash, etc., and MAY not even need to worry about FLR (yes, it's the old focus-lock-recompose dance we were taught with film SLRs that gets the wrong result in an autofocus Canon E-TTL world).
The procedure I gave you was for overcoming quirks in Canon E-TTL because it is focus point weighted. E-TTL II solves many of the quirks.
OK, so the flash can stay on. You re-meter when you change lighting. Still run the camera is M to meter the background though. It takes a little judgment practice to balance the background/foreground light. Flash is usually better with a Lumiquest or equal, but you'll need to adjust power or FEC.
Let us know how you make out. What, no assistant at family events to hold your reflectors? (haha). J.

[d'homme]

The rule of thumb use to be ... bright sunny day .. 1/ISO at F16 ...

Make sure your exposure compensation didnt get changed. That happend to me once.

[Jonny]

ht light;

d. get any focus point lock on a midtone on the subject.



hmmm.....Can i ask why this is important? I thought the focus points were just that, or do they have an effect on metering?

Thanks

[J Rabin]

hmmm.....Can i ask why this is important? I thought the focus points were just that, or do they have an effect on metering?

Jonny, you're correct. Scott Berger has a nice Sticky in the flash section on this.
FPs don't, for you, because your 20D body uses E-TTL II, which breaks the FP weighted flash exposure link Canon E-TTL used for years, until 2004. But, since flash power output is subject distance linked, it's still a good idea if you were using a lens which does not report focus distance to E-TTL II. I see from your sig you have Canon's best, thus also a non-issue for you.
I was trying to help the poster achieve foreground fill flash on a face and not blow out the background sky. I'm get better flash exposures doing this with a focus point in candid/PJ settings, under hi EV outdoors backlight, which was topic of original poster.

It's a habit I kept from overcoming Canon E-TTL's limitations, since getting a FP over a midtone on subject eliminated using FEL, which irritates/confuses people at public events. Moving the FP also helped me break the 35mm FLR habit forever, which was a kiss of death with E-TTL. This was made easier by the 20D joystick FP mover and E-TTL II.

FWIW, in challenging exposure situations, in hi-contrast settings, etc., I have been getting the best flash exposures of my life this way with the 20D. The histograms just "drop in" beautifully. Life is good. J.

[Jonny]

J. Rabin, thanks for a detailed reply...i understand now!