Pros versus Parents

[ssim]

Interesting Read (http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/content_display/features/pdn-online/e3id4b973c6ccee64b49cf392379b2bf88e).

[SOK]

I guess it's more of the same old story...

But with all due respect to Mr Harte, watching client numbers steadily decline until they hit rock bottom without changing tack is probably indicative of bigger issues within his business.

He would do well to have a chat with Haim Ariav...

Ariav’s advice is, “You’ve got to be able to adapt to survive.”

[JeffreyG]

This type of issue has been challenging professtional photographers for some time. The lesson must that you have to find a business model that works. Complaining about GWC's will not put bread on the table.

One thing that seemed amiss was that this guy was selling $500 packages to student atheletes for exclusive coverage. It's interesting that people who were willing to pay $500 for the shots are suddenly all satisfied with a couple freebies from a GWC.

In any case, it's time for a change in approach. I make some money shooting youth sports but this would be a killer job to try and make a full time living from.

[chauncey]

Would anyone argue the fact that, with the advent of digital cameras and what they can accomplish in the hands of an armature, it is easier for mom and pop to take an adequate image.
For years the Pros had a virtual lock on the business because of the skill level involved...'taint the case anymore as Mom and Dad can now take that adequate image.
When you couple that with today's economy being in the doldrums, is it any wonder that your potential client list is either in, or headed into, the toilet.

Class Pictures, a subject that from parents point of view, I am familar with, got nine of the cherubs...have any of you guys noticed the quality, or lack thereof, that is being churned out nowdays...'tis sad.
I think that the pendulum will swing back to the pros
Maybe, for the few really great ones, the ones that are doing well now, but for the corner pro photog, IMHO, things are not looking good.

[Bosscat]

This part is just too funny. but the sad truth of the entire digital revolution

“We get a lot of parents coming up to us and asking how to operate their machinery,”

[DStanic]

Perhaps the "pro" sports photographers should try to get into shooting "pro" sports. or at least college/university sports or something. $500 for a disk? that sounds a little much to *me* for a highschool football game. Heck there are people that pay $500 for a wedding! (not that I would recommend it!).

As mentioned maybe those "pros" should try to do indoor sports such as hockey where the lighting conditions are more difficult and they would see more business. I can't fathom how they could make a living off of it, I could just see it as a way to make some money on the side.

[S.Horton]

Would anyone argue the fact that, with the advent of digital cameras and what they can accomplish in the hands of an armature, it is easier for mom and pop to take an adequate image........

It actually doesn't matter, because Canon marketing/advertising makes them think that they can.

I've seen many disappointed parents' laments, including:
1. My camera isn't performing; I should be getting (what you get)
2. I think something's wrong with this lens
3. I need a better lens
4. I need a better camera
......and more.

What I never hear is "I need to work on my technique"

..and I'm just a part-time paid PWC.

I have a couple of pro friends -- They've stopped shooting all but T&I now.

Even that, they walk away from when the organizations get greedy on % of gross revenue.

I continue to believe that sports photogs should focus their energy where:
(a) The sport is extremely expensive; Hockey, Gymnastics, Dressage
(b) The sport has fine technical points (Dressage/Gymnastics)
(c) The sport is played in very poor/tricky light (Hockey)
(d) The sport is very fast and reach is required (LAX, Soccer)
(d) In wealthy zip codes only.....

Like I said, I'm not a pro photog, but I am a businessman, so I did evaluate my local market closely to see if it would be worth my time.

Honestly, it isn't, and I feel bad for people who try to make a living doing it because, if you broke down the pay by hour spent, they might not be at minimum wage.

I suspect they'll have to convert to video, actually, or wait for gear which is dual-use that they can afford, like RED (http://www.red.com)

[mikekelley]

[x] armature in this thread

Also, I really don't get the fuss. If a parent wants to take pictures of their own child...keyword their own child...who are we to get upset about it?

If people would rather pay an amateur $300 for a CD instead of the professional $500, well, the pro needs to get better or charge less.

This is the one thing I hate about photographers...the sense of entitlement. Just because you've been doing it longer doesn't mean you are guaranteed, or even should get the money. The internet is out there and people are now figuring out how to do this stuff on their own. Maybe parents think they are getting screwed by the photog's prices, so they do it on their own.

Every business needs to change. Canon isn't getting rich off of selling AE-1 bodies...they updated their products with the times, now it's all digital. You just have to adapt. If only Canon whined about it every time someone bought a nikon because canon refused to update their product.

[mike_d]

All I can say is, "that's life". Technology advances and lets non-pros get results that at one time only a pro with a big investment could get. The same thing happened with the PC and the laser printer. At one time if you wanted a flyer or brochure, you had to pay a printer to design and offset print it in big batches. Now you can do it yourself at home. All it does is weed out the hacks because the true pros will adapt and step up their game.

If the GWC's shots are so terrible, why is this guy so threatened? Every business has to deal with being undercut by lower quality competition. You can either focus on keeping your quality high and taking care of your customers or you can whine about it.

[JeffreyG]

If the GWC's shots are so terrible, why is this guy so threatened? Every business has to deal with being undercut by lower quality competition. You can either focus on keeping your quality high and taking care of your customers or you can whine about it.

Almost every time there is a thread or blog post on this topic this same disconnect appears.

First we are told that the technology is so easy and these 'stupid' amateurs are so willing to give away their work that nobody can make a living.

And then we are told these GWCs are such hacks that their work is terrible.

The two positions are mutually exclusive.

Seems to me that for the latter case any professional photographer should be able to outhustle the GWCs and deliver a better product. And if the former is the reality then I suggest going back to school for a degree in nursing or computer science or something as photography will be a dead end.

[Rey.dos]

it funny how the wife stops at our booth to check out samples of our shots then the husband goes "lets just bring our camera tomorrow and take pictures of our child" then the next day, goes back to our booth and asks "did you take any photos of our child?"
the reply goes: sorry ma'am we only do pre-orders since there's 60+ games...haha

[mike_d]

Seems to me that for the latter case any professional photographer should be able to outhustle the GWCs and deliver a better product. And if the former is the reality then I suggest going back to school for a degree in nursing or computer science or something as photography will be a dead end.

And in most businesses, the ability to sell yourself and your product is probably more important than the the product itself. A true pro will know how to get the shot, process the shot, and SELL the shot. The GWC might get some nice shots but without any business skills, he's not going to get much business. Maybe the guy in the article was just used to being the only game in town and never really learned how to promote himself. Now that there's a viable alternative to his services, he's up the creek without a paddle and no idea how to make one.

[canonnoob]

I saw this same article on sportsshooter... interesting read for sure...

[Sports_Dude]

Competition is healthy in everything you do. It forces people to improve or get left behind.

[Rey.dos]

I saw this same article on sportsshooter... interesting read for sure...

same here...

[dave sparks]

Adequate photographs from entry level DSLR's and affordable equipment takes it's toll for sure. The price of admission isn't out of the reach for most people. Not to mention affordable studio gear. "Amateurs" with nice equipment is nothing new, all with different skill levels and abilities.

I think the main problem is with the economy. People don't have that disposable income like a few years ago. I would bet that even after we recover people won't be as free with the extra money, some being burned pretty bad. This economic turn has been a wake up call and should be a sign for future spending. Sure that pro may be better but when money is tight even the diehard customers are looking to scrimp and save, even at the price of quality.

To put in perspective, one $500 sale would pay my basic living expenses for a MONTH. Imagine what two or three would get me. $500 is a lot to get off of people these days. Someone who doesn't make a living with a camera and does it to bring in a few extra bucks has the edge right now. They don't need that $500 sale, but an extra $100 or two here and there helps with the bills or new equipment.

Of course the mom and pop's all sharing pictures with friends and other parents don't help. Combined together it's going to be very interesting and a lot of pro's are going to have to adapt and change for sure. A lot of the same arguments were made by pro's using medium format when 35MM cameras took hold and became affordable to the masses.

Dave.......

[S.Horton]

I think photographers 'starve' for the same reasons that artists do.

[JWright]

I wonder if these photographers like a little cheese with their whine...

[mikekelley]

I think photographers 'starve' for the same reasons that artists do.

Nah, I just think it's that photographers never stop whining and therefore can't put any food in their mouth because of all the complaining they're doing.

[dave kadolph]

GWC here--WWC too.

Both with day jobs and plenty of expendable income.

Our sports booster club sells sports photos as a fund raiser--And we don't show up and shoot with a kit lens and use the green box--check our gear list;).

The Wife with camera"WWC" does Senior portraits for some of the economically challenged students in the area for a little gas money--same gear,same locations,same results as the local businesses.

It is getting so the difference between a pro and serious "GWC'S" is pretty minimal IMHO.

[RDKirk]

People don't pay for what they can do themselves. That's why gardeners have become landscapers and handymen have become home renovators.

Some of the lower-end segments of professional photography are simply going away--it means professionals have to shift their efforts to the higher end, both in types of services and in the economic levels of their clients.

It's happened before, such as when George Eastman introduced his first Brownie that made "casual" photography possible for the first time.

[mick w]

Well, I'm saving up for a 70-200 2.8 so I can be one of those GWC...hopefully I'll be good enough one day to complain about other GWC's.

[SOK]

I saw this same article on sportsshooter... interesting read for sure...

See...I didn't think the article was particularly interesting - it's just the latest incarnation of the same old story that is told with ever increasing frequency.

In fairness, the discussion it generates here is interesting.

...hopefully I'll be good enough one day to complain about other GWC's.

I laughed at this. Maybe we've found the true definition of a 'pro': one who either makes 51% of their income through photography and/or complains about GWCs.

:D

[S.Horton]

A professional signs a contract and has to perform against it to get paid.

Anyone not doing that is not a pro, by definition.

I think most love photography much more than business.

[nphsbuckeye]

This proves you need to be a businessman/woman to make it in the business, not a photographer. Like all businesses, if you don't change, someone will catch you and beat you.

[JeffreyG]

This proves you need to be a businessman/woman to make it in the business, not a photographer. Like all businesses, if you don't change, someone will catch you and beat you.

The vast majority of professional photography is very low tech and low in artistic quotient. A good business man can read a couple books on posing and lighting and make a living with <$1500 worth of equipment.

[chauncey]

A good business man
This is the key

[S.Horton]

The vast majority of professional photography is very low tech and low in artistic quotient. A good business man can read a couple books on posing and lighting and make a living with <$1500 worth of equipment.

True, but the income for a photographer, on average, is not very good.

I've noticed more than a few high-end photographers who were, shall we say, "born with a camera in their hands" -- Where they end up depends a great deal upon where they start.

[mikekelley]

What i'd do is go hire all the GWCs to shoot for me for min wage, then take their sales.

Muahahah

[RDKirk]

The vast majority of professional photography is very low tech and low in artistic quotient. A good business man can read a couple books on posing and lighting and make a living with <$1500 worth of equipment.

Well, it will take quite a bit larger investment, all told, than $1500 to make a living...if by "living" you include things like a retirement plan, health insurance, paying taxes, the kids' college fund, et cetera.

[airfrogusmc]

The future of photography for most means that to be successful in photography you have got to bring something to the table and have skills in areas that the herd doesn't. I think the real future with a good income is gong to be in those areas where you will be working with other professionals like art directors and designers that wouldn't even consider a GWC because he doesn't have the skills and the expertise to work in those environments. You need to have common sense in business which is most of what the business of photography is anyway and connections are going to become even more important because without them you wont even get the interview. So many more people are pouring into photography that if you don't have a field in an industry that you thoroughly know and have connections in you are going to be competing with all the GWCs and all the business skills in the world are not going to open those doors in those fields without the proper skill sets for those fields .

[SwiftFootTim]

We get a lot of parents coming up to us and asking how to operate their machinery.

If I had a nickle for everytime this situation comes up for me...

My situation is this, I provide the shots from our local HS football games for free currently as my brother is on the team. I'm there already, I enjoy PP'ing as a hobby, and I've gotten tons of praise and thank you's from everyone in the community. We have probably four other shooters that are parents/grandparents in the area who shoot time to time, but they come to me for the "better quality" images as they constantly ask me how I got the shot when they couldn't. I give them suggestions for settings and such but oftentimes find that they don't want to bother.

Highschool sports photography is a pipedream for a career anymore. There isn't the cash to go around, and the parents will make-do with subpar imagery if you start charging imo. Although I have heard that $5.00-$10.00 per image printed isn't out of the question.

If you want to make money, sports posters are where it's at, but the margins are still slim to none on them as well.

[snyderman]

So there you have it. I'm a "GWC." I have a son who plays HS Football and have posted my thoughts on this before, but here goes again:

Parents who have HS student-athletes understand the commitment of time, money for gear, travel expenses and everything else that goes into keeping the kids healthy and productive in school and on the playing field. Nobody pays any HS student-athlete a RED CENT for their effort. 95+% of them won't earn scholarships at the D1 or D2 level, either.

If I can reward a kid or his or her parent with a quality 5 X 7 print at NO COST to them, that's my business and my business alone. Right now, (and knocking on wood) I'm able to do this because selling pics isn't the difference between eating and starving. I'm truly sorry that those who have chosen to sell pics to eat aren't happy with "GWC" shooting pics of their own kids and their teammates at HS sporting events.

Yes, the whining about 'the way things are' bothers me.

dave

[gkarris]

It's sorta like when my nice high-paying computer job got outsourced overseas... :eek:

Back in the film days, you didn't see what you got until you processed the film. You BETTER be good - there's no going back to shoot that once-in-a-lifetime event...

Now with digital and high capacity cards, just start continuously shooting. A parent with a DSLR in the "Green Square" mode is bound to get a bunch of good shots, and more than willing to charge a minimum or give the stuff away (especially if there kid's in center-frame). Plus, a copy is virtually effortless...

That's life, unfortunately, people... :(

[S.Horton]

I think that many GWC/PWC's seek adoration from their peers as compensation.

[Maddog12]

I get tired of "pros" whining about GWC/WWC/Weekend Wariors/Pro-Am's taking their business.

We all have to start somewhere...so pros stop whining, develop a new marketing plan, and keep shooting.

Technology and availability of great equipment has changed....learn to deal with it.

Most GWC/WWC have full-time non photography jobs and do photography for extra cash, etc. We know that we CANNOT survive and make money doing photography stuff full time, but we do know we CAN make money doing top-quality work as a side job.

[airfrogusmc]

It will sure be interesting to see how this all pans out over time. I don't sports and for some of the very reasons I see here. If your going to be successful in the future I really believe, because there are so many photographers that are weekend warriors or GWCs, that you've got to be in an area where you SKILL, talent and thorough knowledge of the field you are working in are going to be the KEY to success.

[canonnoob]

We know that we CANNOT survive and make money doing photography stuff full time, but we do know we CAN make money doing top-quality work as a side job.

Assuming the WE refers to Pros vs GWC, I think you are wrong.. you can make a living off of doing "Photography stuff" full time..

[airfrogusmc]

Assuming the WE refers to Pros vs GWC, I think you are wrong.. you can make a living off of doing "Photography stuff" full time..

I've been doing it for a very long time but I really don't know if I would want to be starting right now. Without a steady loyal client base I've already established it would be hard to pay the mortgage, care payment, insurance and eat. And I'm not shooting sports.

[S.Horton]

I get tired of "pros" whining about GWC/WWC/Weekend Wariors/Pro-Am's taking their business.

We all have to start somewhere...so pros stop whining, develop a new marketing plan, and keep shooting.

Technology and availability of great equipment has changed....learn to deal with it.

Most GWC/WWC have full-time non photography jobs and do photography for extra cash, etc. We know that we CANNOT survive and make money doing photography stuff full time, but we do know we CAN make money doing top-quality work as a side job.

I don't know any "whining" pros.

I think they're just leaving the segment to people who can afford to lose money on it, just for now.

I have noticed a local trend, though.

Local High Schools are restricting sideline access and they're starting to actively suppress GWCs in the stands whenever they find out that they're posting photos of athletes who are not their children.

Why do you think that's happening?

What do you think the future of the GWC is in a few years?

Pros aren't stupid; they'll find a way to "deal" with it.

;)

[mike_d]

I don't know any "whining" pros.

I think they're just leaving the segment to people who can afford to lose money on it, just for now.

I have noticed a local trend, though.

Local High Schools are restricting sideline access and they're starting to actively suppress GWCs in the stands whenever they find out that they're posting photos of athletes who are not their children.

Why do you think that's happening?

What do you think the future of the GWC is in a few years?

Pros aren't stupid; they'll find a way to "deal" with it.

;)

In other words, if you don't like competition, buy off whoever you have to to make rules in your favor.

[JeffreyG]

I have noticed a local trend, though.

Local High Schools are restricting sideline access and they're starting to actively suppress GWCs in the stands whenever they find out that they're posting photos of athletes who are not their children.

Why do you think that's happening?

;)

Maybe you lost me. Are you suggesting schools are clamping down on parents taking pictures in favor of professionals?

I'd suggest a different possibility - the usual paranoid parents who think that photos of children dressed in full football kit are child pornography or something.

[RDKirk]

Maybe you lost me. Are you suggesting schools are clamping down on parents taking pictures in favor of professionals?

I'd suggest a different possibility - the usual paranoid parents who think that photos of children dressed in full football kit are child pornography or something.

There is some of both things happening.

In many areas, schools have contracts with professional photographers that--in my outraged opinion--are arrangements where the professionals pay huge kickbacks in cash, equipment, and free work to school officials for money kept "off the budget" in exchange for exclusive access to such venues as well as the yearbook photos, dance photos, and such.

These kickbacks in my area range as much as $10,000 in cash and equipment, plus free work (essentially, being the school staff photographer to the principal for the year). I'm guessing it pays the photographers or they wouldn't do it, but it also cheats the students because the contract photographers are being selected based on how much they're willing to kick back to the school, not on the quality and value of their work to the students. IMO, some of those school officials should be doing perp walks in orange jumpsuits on the local evening news.

So I suspect that in some of these areas where schools are "clamping down," it's to protect their kickbacks with the contract photographer.

[OldA1]

Ignoring the 'whining', there have been some good points made here for both sides. First of all, I do not shoot sports but I think the situation needs help - maybe a dedicated area for parents to stay in. I have seen (as I am sure many of you have) lots of highlight films where the photog and player collide.

What would happen if a player running along the sideline got tripped up by a mom or dad who just happens to have a son playing for the other team? Who pays for medical services? Who pays for the broken camera gear?

I can just see a possible newspaper story....."XXX High School's undefeated streak ended last night when the game winning touchdown was foiled by amateur photographer along sidelines. The photographer (who has a son that played for the opposite team) claims that the impact was accidental and he was not aware he had stepped over the line while trying to photograph his son. He has declined our request for an interview and simply stated that he is a victim as well with bruises and broken camera equipment.......both schools have declined interviews while they have their legal advisors reviewing the damage and medical claims submitted by both parties......"

True professionals should not whine. Parents only shooting their own children for personal use should not say 'get used to it'.

Yes, being in a digital world has made it easier for people to get gear and take pictures, that is fine with me but if a person is operating as a business, selling prints online or whatever, they should be legal with a license and everything else needed or stay off of the sidelines.

Peace
Mark

[Maddog12]

The consumer world we live in has become a "I want it all for little" and will sacrifice quality to save money. I restate my whining comment. Pros know the cream always rises to the top and know how to make the cream rise.

I don't know what makes a pro a pro. I take pictures and sell pictures...am I a pro? I don't know. My work is good but maybe one step off from the pros...but I am learning and getting better.

Pros recognize and understand market trends and know how to adapt. I think that is what the underlying point of the article is. Yes it's tough and maybe annoying but know how to counteract it.

[mbellot]

I have noticed a local trend, though.

Local High Schools are restricting sideline access and they're starting to actively suppress GWCs in the stands whenever they find out that they're posting photos of athletes who are not their children.

Why do you think that's happening?

What do you think the future of the GWC is in a few years?

Pros aren't stupid; they'll find a way to "deal" with it.

;)

In other words, if you don't like competition, buy off whoever you have to to make rules in your favor.

It works for the RIAA and MPAA, why not photographers too?

Its too bad really, because if the "Pros" have to resort to such tactics it doesn't bode well for the consumers.

What I shoot "as a pro" I do on spec. (put your tomatoes down). The organizations (public schools mostly) do not have the budget to hire a photographer. I do the work, post the (heavily watermarked) photos online and let the customers (parents) determine how well I did my job.

Can I retire on my photography income? No.
Do I enjoy what I'm doing? Yes.
Have I earned enough to buy a couple extra L lenses? You bet. :D

[Cosha]

Its a free for all

GWC Vs "Pros"

I own the pictures i take, i have the right to do what i want with them (unless contracted differently)

Id love to hear a story where a pro who started off as a GWC never stepped on Pro's toe

End of the day they are "Pro's" so act like one, get on with it - stay ahead of the GWC and keep shootin

[mbellot]

Id love to hear a story where a pro who started off as a GWC never stepped on Pro's toe

To my knowledge I've never stepped on a "real" pro's toes.

They don't seem to be willing to sink to the level of work I shoot. ;)

[Cosha]

To my knowledge I've never stepped on a "real" pro's toes.

They don't seem to be willing to sink to the level of work I shoot. ;)

Thats my point :D Pros shoot pro style, i shoot GWC style :rolleyes: - if a parent will only pay a couple of quid for a picture and undercutting the pro by millions, not really much a pro can do

[Gatorboy]

Perhaps the "pro" sports photographers should try to get into shooting "pro" sports. or at least college/university sports or something. $500 for a disk? that sounds a little much to *me* for a highschool football game. Heck there are people that pay $500 for a wedding! (not that I would recommend it!).

Sounds just about right to me. Travel, 30-minutes pre-game, 2+ hours shooting game, 4+ hours editing images, insurance, equipment, etc. Plus providing high-resolution, print-ready images with little chance of print sales -- $500 is a a fair price. I charge $525.

Much more lucrative than a $125 photo assignment to shoot a Pro or College football game.

I guarantee a $500 wedding photographer won't be in business long.

[Maddog12]

Looking from a portrait point of view. The same thing is happening between "pros" and "mall type studios".

Mall studios could be undercutting pros. I dont consider mall sudios pro by the way.

[gkarris]

Thats my point :D Pros shoot pro style, i shoot GWC style :rolleyes: - if a parent will only pay a couple of quid for a picture and undercutting the pro by millions, not really much a pro can do

(shakes head in agreement...)

ever look in the "Wedding Photography" thread? ;)

[mbellot]

Thats my point :D Pros shoot pro style, i shoot GWC style :rolleyes: - if a parent will only pay a couple of quid for a picture and undercutting the pro by millions, not really much a pro can do

The price of the print is irrelevant, the school/PTA does not have the budget to "retain" the services of a "pro".

I shoot speculatively (no up front cost), most "pros" don't, which is why I don't believe I've ever "stepped on any toes". I then sell 4x6 prints at a reasonable cost and offer larger prints for a better (to me) profit.

I've sold thousands of pictures, including many posters from 16" x 20" all the way up to 30" x 40".

Most parents want simple/cheap memories, so the 4x6 prints sell well. Some want larger prints for gifts. The ones that order posters are commemorating years of hard work and achievement.

I did a group of three 30x40 (single image) posters for some parents of their daughter's final high school orchesis performance, she had been dancing since the age of three so they wanted to make a big deal of it. Grandma liked them so much she got 16x20 "copies" for herself.

[Cosha]

The price of the print is irrelevant, the school/PTA does not have the budget to "retain" the services of a "pro".

I shoot speculatively (no up front cost), most "pros" don't, which is why I don't believe I've ever "stepped on any toes". I then sell 4x6 prints at a reasonable cost and offer larger prints for a better (to me) profit.

I've sold thousands of pictures, including many posters from 16" x 20" all the way up to 30" x 40".

Most parents want simple/cheap memories, so the 4x6 prints sell well. Some want larger prints for gifts. The ones that order posters are commemorating years of hard work and achievement.

I did a group of three 30x40 (single image) posters for some parents of their daughter's final high school orchesis performance, she had been dancing since the age of three so they wanted to make a big deal of it. Grandma liked them so much she got 16x20 "copies" for herself.

So what happens when a GWC turns up, gets some half decent shots and post them on a flicker account for free for parents - yes i can imagin you will be totaly po'd but really the price will be relivent to some people

I dont think it the case of making your prices cheaper but the more PWC or GWC will show the world how a Protog gets much better results

[mikekelley]

Some of you are moaning about spending time in post on images as if it's some sort of huge thing for pros to do.

Pro tip: If you are spending more time processing sports images than shooting them, you're doing it wrong.

Way wrong.

Get the right contrast and saturation on one, sharpen a little if you need to, lift and stamp onto the rest. Crop the keepers. Done. Badabing.

[beeng]

This is pretty similar/related to the news papers going bust. Instead of adapting they fought change. Now they're dying faster and faster.

This also happens when technology makes previously difficult tasks easy and cheap for everyday people. Look at elevators... no longer do we have Frank the Elevator Operator. I'm sure they made a fuss when their industry died :P

Moral of this story: You can't fight change.

[DStanic]

Sounds just about right to me. Travel, 30-minutes pre-game, 2+ hours shooting game, 4+ hours editing images, insurance, equipment, etc. Plus providing high-resolution, print-ready images with little chance of print sales -- $500 is a a fair price. I charge $525.

Much more lucrative than a $125 photo assignment to shoot a Pro or College football game.

I guarantee a $500 wedding photographer won't be in business long.



I just looked at your website- your work is top notch! I'm not sure what your package includes for $525 but you must have the right clients willing to pay that much for sports pictures. Not that I think there is anything wrong with sports pictures- just that I would think many people would be happy with basic pics propertly exposed and focused propertly - minimal PP work done and tossed on a DVD. 4hrs is alot of time for PP work (don't get me wrong- your pics are excellent and it shows). I guess it's the difference in paying $1200 for a "good" wedding photographer with basic coverage, or $5000 for a team with studio lights setup everywhere and having "storybook" looking images.

[mike_d]

If it isn't profitable to show up, take pics, and sell prints to parents anymore then it's time to find another gig. Free is hard to compete against unless your product is so much better than people willing to pay for it. But as in many things, often times free and "good enough" beats expensive and "better". Go ask Netscape and Opera how much luck they had selling browsers to the public in the face of a free and "good enough" alternative.

[beeng]

Go ask Netscape and Opera how much luck they had selling browsers to the public in the face of a free and "good enough" alternative.
How true... although Opera managed to find themselves a nice little niche to sell too. The mobile market.

[mike_d]

How true... although Opera managed to find themselves a nice little niche to sell too. The mobile market.

But the iPhone's browser makes that irrelevant too. Now if only BlackBerry and Windows Mobile would include a browser that's worth a damn.

[mbellot]

So what happens when a GWC turns up, gets some half decent shots and post them on a flicker account for free for parents - yes i can imagin you will be totaly po'd but really the price will be relivent to some people

Has not happened yet, but po'd isn't the likely reaction.

In fact I've helped several PWCs try to get decent shots before a show or during intermission. The sad (for them) fact is that an f/5.6 lens is pretty much useless in the typical school auditorium, I often struggle at ISO3200 with f/2.8 lenses to keep the shutter speed high enough.

Remaining friendly and helpful (as possible) to the potential clients has never hurt me in any way. Quite the opposite in fact. Once they realize they can't get even half decent shots they tend to sit back and enjoy the show knowing I'm doing my thing.

I dont think it the case of making your prices cheaper but the more PWC or GWC will show the world how a Protog gets much better results

Agreed. Thats why I get asked to do these things. Its also why I generally get some free advertising (in the program, a newsletter, or via PTA email blasts). When shooting on spec the most important thing is "advertising", and since I'm willing to shoot for no cost to these organizations they reciprocate by making it clear who took the pictures and where to get them.

As for pricing, the (relatively low) cost of my 4x6 prints is a well researched and tested number. Its the best balance I've found of per print profit for me while being low enough to encourage buying multiple prints, even duplicates of the same print. Being a parent of young kids myself I'm very aware of perceived value.

Slightly OT but relevant to pricing...

We (the family) were at Disney World this weekend on vacation, my six year old daughter decided she was ready to ride Splash Mountain.

I knew Disney has cameras and strobes rigged for the big drop and was prepared to spend good money (up to $10) to buy a print of this momentous occasion. Sure enough, we get in to the gift shop area and there is a wall of monitors with pictures. I find ours, and then spot the price list.

$18.95 for a single 8x10 print.

The picture wasn't worth that much to me, I'm quite happy re-living the experience through the words of my daughter. ;)

[Gatorboy]

I just looked at your website- your work is top notch! I'm not sure what your package includes for $525 but you must have the right clients willing to pay that much for sports pictures.

Examples:

Wrestling Team: 14 wrestlers at 525 = $37.50 per parent
Football Team: 25+ players at $525 = $21 or less per parent.
For most Rec events, the games are only 1 hour so my fee is $325, so you can do the math on per parent cost.

I used to shoot on-spec, and on average parents were buying 3-to-5 5x7 prints at $12.95 each. Now, they get many more images and can go print them themselves, and use them to email family/friends, and also put them up on facebook, etc. It's a win-win for all.

Each photo is cropped, color corrected, etc.

Heck, I have one wrestling team that has me come out to a match each year and they purchase a custom 16x20 poster of each wrestler.

I'm not trying to appeal to ALL people, just the ones that care about good photos.

[DStanic]

Examples:

Wrestling Team: 14 wrestlers at 525 = $37.50 per parent
Football Team: 25+ players at $525 = $21 or less per parent.
For most Rec events, the games are only 1 hour so my fee is $325, so you can do the math on per parent cost.

I used to shoot on-spec, and on average parents were buying 3-to-5 5x7 prints at $12.95 each. Now, they get many more images and can go print them themselves, and use them to email family/friends, and also put them up on facebook, etc. It's a win-win for all.

Each photo is cropped, color corrected, etc.

Heck, I have one wrestling team that has me come out to a match each year and they purchase a custom 16x20 poster of each wrestler.

I'm not trying to appeal to ALL people, just the ones that care about good photos.


Ohhhhhh... I thought the $500 was for ONE student. Which would be a heck of alot for one parent! For a whole team that is not bad at all. I've never shot any sports so excuse my ignorance. :lol:

[Cosha]

I'm not trying to appeal to ALL people, just the ones that care about good photos.

This is the way forward :D

[Fastfwd13]

The market moves. Adapt or die.

That being said maybe the work to be done is not only on price or result but also on educating the target audience on what is a good picture. This could be very hard in a culture where hotdogs get more respect than fine wine.

[Quad]

Photographers must give the buyer something they cannot get elsewhere. Look at prostitution the pros still manage to make a (sometimes very good) living even though lots of amateurs are doing what they do for free. When you think about the poor prostitutes photographers have got it easy when it comes to competition by GWCs.





Also people are cheap, they can't stand to pay someone for something they think they can do themselves. People think they can take photographs because they have done so. So it comes down to doing it so well that they want to buy the product. If there is no market for something no amount of wishful thinking will make a market. If you love to photograph sports but no one wants high quality sports photos you either continue to do it for the love and/or you photograph something you don't want to so much but that has a market.