army or navy for photography [Archive] - Canon Digital Photography Forums

asysin2leads

11th of October 2009 (Sun), 21:50

If you're wanting to join the military, make darn sure that it's what you want to do. You can't just decide to quit one day and go somewhere else. I've served in 2 branches and miss them both. That being said, there are public affairs (broad generalization) in all services. I hope this will be some helpful information:

Army MOS 46 series (http://usmilitary.about.com/od/enlistedjobs/a/46.-uKd.htm) is the Public Affairs. You can enlist and you might be a photographer. Keep in mind that they can do with you what they want. You might be a 46Q (Journalist) and be a chair-born ranger (riding a desk) your entire career.

The Navy has the Mass Communications (http://usmilitary.about.com/od/navynecs/a/mcom.htm) side.

The Air Force has the Public Affairs (http://usmilitary.about.com/od/airforceenlistedjobs/a/afjobpa.htm) side, too. Personally, I think the AF has the best bases. When I worked as a youth counselor and a kid would come in and ask about military service and they were undecided, I would point them to the Air Force. They are anal about getting an education.

The Marines actually have a designate Combat Camera (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Marine_Corps_MOS#46_Combat_C amera_.28COMCAM.29) job classification. They won't guarantee you'll see combat, but you never know. You may sign on to be a combat cameraman in the Marines, but that doesn't guarantee anything. I've seen guys at MEPS who signed a contract as infantry and was given a cook slot.

Let me advise you on this. DO NOT let the recruiter snowball you. He may act like your best friend, but keep in mind that you are a number and paycheck to him. Regardless of what branch of service you choose. Best of luck on talking to the recruiters. DO NOT sign anything until you have what you want. If they say they can't get it for you, then calmly stand up, thank them for their time and leave. I doubt you'll make it out the door before they miraculously come up with a number of someone to call (most likely the first sergeant or senior chief) who can get you what you want. Stand your ground. Joining the military is a serious and major step.

Jm Photography

11th of October 2009 (Sun), 22:39

I almost fell for that one time already and i told them a few months back i want my vaccine waiver too if i sign and gave a statement of faith and what not but now comes the job.

I have the navy on speed dial my old office and they were doing what they could to get my job due to the initial rate i picked.

thx for the advice!

RDKirk

11th of October 2009 (Sun), 22:46

I enlisted into the Air Force in 1973 with the idea of becoming a photographer. But my recruiter--a straight-shooter named, for real, Sgt Roy Rogers, refused to allow me to go in without a guaranteed job that I'd like. I waited and waited, but no photographer shot came open. I eventually settled for a guaranteed job as a "Photo Interpreter," which looked like something I might be able to cross-train into the "Still Camera Specialist" later.

As it turns out, Still Camera Specialist is one of those very small career fields that you have to wait for people to retire out of. And the Photo Interpreter field (now called Imagery Analysis) is an Intel field...getting out of Intel is like getting out of the mafia. Fortunately, I wound up liking the reconnaissance imagery business.

It's darned hard to get a photographer slot in any service, and if you can't get one going in, do not expect to cross train later--the services permit crosstraining based on service need. You get to crosstrain from an overage field to a shortage field, and photographer is never a shortage field.

If you have the kind of luck that has won you the Powerball three times, then go for it.

Lonnie

11th of October 2009 (Sun), 23:32

Try to get in combat camera in the airforce.

Keep in mind: In any branch of the military, you're a soldier first and a photographer second.

Not quite so true in the AF...

robbug

11th of October 2009 (Sun), 23:50

I am currently serving in the Navy. Mass media specialists is the rating for personnel that deal with photography, videography, broadcasting and all that. This rate is "easier" to get into as media skills are important for shipboard communications etc. As to pure photography - not there anymore. The rating is combined. Ask your detailer VERY SPECIFICALLY and do not agree to anything that is not in writing. Your initial contract is what you have. Make sure you understand what the rating is. If you want more information PM me and I can make a few phone calls for you to get you the information you need. Your detailer will love it that you coming in but remember the military has needs and if that particular job is not among them don't just say ok and sign on anyway as you will not be a happy camper doing something you did not want to do.

Soldiers/Sailors first. Your rating/MOS second.

Rob

Jm Photography

12th of October 2009 (Mon), 00:04

RDKirk

12th of October 2009 (Mon), 04:59

Try to get in combat camera in the airforce.

Not quite so true in the AF...

Well, a little. These days in Iraq, an airman could wind up driving a truck for the army....

phr0ze

12th of October 2009 (Mon), 11:21

Give up on the photog idea. If the military is your option, fight hard to get into intel with a clearance. After 4 years your job options will be outstanding if you are willing to live near DC.

_aravena

12th of October 2009 (Mon), 11:24

Impossibly slim or I'd be there right now. I'm actually waiting for a spot to open up. They say they're not taking anyone for a year but if a spot opens...and i have connections. I might go into intelligence though. THey say I qualify but I have time to think.

Jm Photography

12th of October 2009 (Mon), 14:00

there is always desk jockey as i have said over and over lol

Lonnie

12th of October 2009 (Mon), 14:25

Here's one of my recent favorites. The injury is an ATSO - not real.

http://honeycutt.zenfolio.com/img/v0/p437682100-4.jpg

Lonnie

12th of October 2009 (Mon), 14:28

I'm a satcom guy in the air national guard, but I have been performing as my unit photographer for the last two years. It's not my AFSC(MOS or rating), but I'm still getting paid to take photographs.

RDKirk

12th of October 2009 (Mon), 14:29

Give up on the photog idea. If the military is your option, fight hard to get into intel with a clearance. After 4 years your job options will be outstanding if you are willing to live near DC.

Or a few other places, like Huntsville, AL, and some other locations that are more usually in pleasant places like Colorado Springs and Honolulu.

chrisa

13th of October 2009 (Tue), 10:58

RDKirk

13th of October 2009 (Tue), 12:31

My wife was in the Navy, she was in Intel and had a top secret clearance. When she got out the Gov were knocking down our door trying to recruit her. The top secret clearance is very costly for the Gov, so they try to use people already cleared.

Not just for government. Years ago, a major contractor doing intelligence programming for the government offered me a job as a programmer. I told them I didn't know programming. The recruiter told me, "That's okay. It costs us $100,000 to get a TOP SECRET clearance for a programmer. You already have a TOP SECRET clearance--it only costs us $20,000 to teach you programming."

jwilson

13th of October 2009 (Tue), 16:52

For the OP, I'm currently in Iraq right now and the only TV we have over here is AFN. At least 6 times a day (when I can watch), I see the Army advertising for Army Broadcasters which means they need public affairs types. They are also offering up to $16K enlistment bonuses. So, may be easier than you think with the Army. I imagine if you can get into Army Broadcasting that there would be plenty of opportunity to do still photography as well....just a thought.

Jeff

Jeff

13th of October 2009 (Tue), 17:27

It's darned hard to get a photographer slot in any service, and if you can't get one going in, do not expect to cross train later--the services permit crosstraining based on service need. You get to crosstrain from an overage field to a shortage field, and photographer is never a shortage field.

And don't think for a minute they won't crosstrain you OUT of a photography job if they need/want to. Your AFSC or MOS or whatever may be that of a photographer but if they say go here, do this, guess what.....

That guaranteed job means very, very little when it comes right down to it.

This gal got to shoot the Blue Angles but then worked another 10-12hrs a day doing other PR stuff.

_aravena

13th of October 2009 (Tue), 17:28

Biggest thing is your ASVAB score. You need a rather high one to get into that field. Army does not guarantee a job like Navy does...if it's open.

Lonnie

13th of October 2009 (Tue), 18:10

Don't forget about the guard/reserves. In the Air National Guard, for instance, EVERYONE has a guaranteed job before they go to basic training. There is a specific slot at a specific unit you are filling in the guard, so it is predetermined.

I remember when I was near the end of basic training watching the active duty guys learn what their job would be. One guy was quite disheartened to learn he was going to be a pest controller....

I know at the fighter wing my unit supports - there is a bad-ass 5 man combat camera shop. They have a nice shop with a broadcast studio and tons of still/video equipment. Not to mention they spend a lot of time photographing F-15's from interesting vantage points.

beeng

13th of October 2009 (Tue), 18:15

Most of military photography is being sub-contracted out through civilians anymore...
That's unfortunate. The Canadian military still keeps military photographers on staff at the bases. They're used for everything from photo-ops, to combat photography, to taking records of damaged equipment. I always thought that it would be a great job to have; all your equipment and training is free.
Much like in the states though, I think it's a tough job to get :P

asysin2leads

13th of October 2009 (Tue), 19:41

Not just for government. Years ago, a major contractor doing intelligence programming for the government offered me a job as a programmer. I told them I didn't know programming. The recruiter told me, "That's okay. It costs us $100,000 to get a TOP SECRET clearance for a programmer. You already have a TOP SECRET clearance--it only costs us $20,000 to teach you programming."

And if it was a government job, it would have been the other way around.:rolleyes:

nphsbuckeye

13th of October 2009 (Tue), 20:04

ShotByTom

13th of October 2009 (Tue), 20:10

I'm not sure where people are getting their information...but there's a lot of wrong information in here..

First of all, EVERY person that goes into the "has it in writing"

The Army does in fact guarantee jobs, so does the Air Force, and Navy...and Marines...

Recruiting and the Military are nothing like they used to be, it's an entirely different world than it was before 2000.

Right now the Military is a great option for anyone just out of high school or college, good pay, great benefits and great job security!

Most of Military photography is not being sub-contracted. You need to talk to people who are actually in the Military, not what people have seen on CNN.

I have a friend who's daughter is finishing her basic training in the Air Force, she is going to be a journalist. I know two others that re-enlisted in the Marines to be a Combat Camera and each got very large bonuses.

There are ways to get where you want to go, but if you don't want to be a soldier, don't go into any branch of the Military.

By the way, if you want to see an amazing collection of Military photos, check HERE (http://www.visualintel.net/)

_aravena

13th of October 2009 (Tue), 20:23

No you're not. Go in confident and say you're a military brat. The Army allows you to choose five jobs and once out of boot camp, they'll see what's there. With the Navy, you sign the contract before hand. Sorry man, but get your facts straight. I'm a Navy brat and known many Army, Marine, and Air Force families that'll tell you the same. As for Guard, that job is is much mroe secured than general Army. It's ok to be wrong though. Just say, "hey! I don't know what I'm talking about as I have no direct source of info."

The military also isn't talking many people right out of high school or college genius. In fact because of this recession, they're kinda full. Pending the job, people are "on-call" as it were for up to a year. Air Force, sorry man, not the same. Marines will...Marines are much more selective as well so you can't just tell anyone, go be a Marine or that they can be.

I appreciate the fact that you love your country and defend it, in some sense as I see, but get the facts right first.

JayCee Images

13th of October 2009 (Tue), 20:25

\

Most of Military photography is not being sub-contracted. You need to talk to people who are actually in the Military, not what people have seen on CNN.

I have a friend who's daughter is finishing her basic training in the Air Force, she is going to be a journalist. I know two others that re-enlisted in the Marines to be a Combat Camera and each got very large bonuses.

Well, sounds to me like your not in the military nor have you ever been either?? So watch who your trying to call out... :rolleyes:

Take it from someone who has 20 years Air Force PR experience...they subcontract more photography that what they train people for. Its alot cheaper and easier to pay joesomebody 25 bucks an hour to do it than it is to spend tens of thousands of dollars to buy equipment and train personnel...even if it isnt most cost effective over the long haul...military always thinks short term as its ever evolving. This goes especially true for any special events...balls, holiday parties, shows, etc. Your best bet for getting photography experience in the military is to prove yourself and your skills to your unit(base, squadron, platoon, etc) and then offer them needed...i pretty much guarantee you wont receive any additional pay though because your always on the clock, 24\7, 365 when your in the military. Doing additional jobs, civilian oriented, charge whatever you like though!

As for your friends, i dont show the Marines offering anything for re-enlisting under 4691(Combat Camera), nor has there been for some time.... so please, check your sources again. And a Journalist in the Air Force is a pretty wide range of jobs...most of which have absolutely nothing to do with photography so i fail to see how that is relevant.

ShotByTom

13th of October 2009 (Tue), 20:41

I've been around the Military my entire life. My father was in the Army for 23 years, I was in for 11, and my son was in for 4, my nephew just re-enlisted in the Marines, along with his former roommate. I am very familar with our MEPS and have spent a lot of time with recruiters. I don't care if you don't believe me, but go talk to a recruiter, don't get your info from people you don't know on an internet forum.

Go to that website and see how many civilians are credited with photos.

ShotByTom

13th of October 2009 (Tue), 20:43

"hey! I don't know what I'm talking about as I have no direct source of info."

That was obvious, thank you for your honesty.:p

RDKirk

13th of October 2009 (Tue), 23:04

Obviously without sharing secret details, how does it cost 100k for TS clearance? Do they just do long background checks? Or do they have to go out ask personally ask contacts of yours that you aren't a terrorist?

When I took my first leave back home after intel school, I visited a number of family friends, a couple of old teachers, and my old boss. Without exception, before I left each one edged into a final comment, "A couple of months ago, there were some government investigators here asking about you. What was that about?" They even asked the kids who lived across the street about me.

During my initial interview, they asked me where I was born (they asked, even though it was in my military records). I told them and asked if they needed me to prove it with a birth certificate. The investigator said, "No, we'll check it out."

As it happened, I had accidentally misspelled my birth town on my application, and an investigator actually made another trip to my base and scheduled another interview just to ask me, "Were you trying to conceal that information?"

That, by the way, is why we know Obama is an American citizen. Before leaving office, Bush and Cheney controlled the FBI, the CIA, the NSA, the Secret Service, the Defense Intelligence Agency, the IRS, the Defense Investigative Agency, and other groups nobody even knows about. Is it really likely they failed to check on the rumors about Obama's birth...when they even took the time to check on me?

RDKirk

13th of October 2009 (Tue), 23:13

First of all, EVERY person that goes into the "has it in writing"

This is true. There will always be something in writing. It may not be what you thought the recruiter said....

The Army does in fact guarantee jobs, so does the Air Force, and Navy...and Marines...

This is also true, just like it's true that someone always wins a lottery. But a lot of people enter the game without winning the prize. And even if you get a guaranteed job, read the fine print: You will not be guaranteed to hold that job for your entire enlistment--the military is not so stupid as to tie their hands that tightly.

The guarantee is only for initial training in that job. They can crosstrain you later whenever Service needs dictate. While it's pretty likely they're going to use you for the job they trained you (especially if it's a job with a long, expensive school), photographer training is one of the cheapest schools in the military--if they decide they need you doing something else, they won't have lost much money to crosstrain you.

I was very lucky in that I scored exceptionally high on the ASVAB (which gave me a lot of decent options) and I had a straight-shooting recruiter who refused to let me go in "general" (on the long shot that a Still Camera Specialist slot would open while I was in basic). But most recruiters don't have a name like "Roy Rogers" to live up to, as mine did.

I was in the Air Force for 26 years. My father and every man in my family has been military since the Spanish-American war. Even my aunts married soldiers. My wife is a military brat. My daughter is getting a commission and going into Intel herself.

I do agree that the military is a great way of life--how could I not? I'm trying to get a niece into the Army, which is why I've been recently re-investigating the scene.

asysin2leads

14th of October 2009 (Wed), 00:33

I was in the Air Force for 26 years. My father and every man in my family has been military since the Spanish-American war. Even my aunts married soldiers. My wife is a military brat. My daughter is getting a commission and going into Intel herself.

That's a long and very impressive list. I agree that the military is a good life. It's might not be the fairy tale life some recruiters make it out to be, but they clothe, feed, house you and take care of you medically. You have to take the bad w/ the good in the military. I actually enlisted when I was 21 and married. I went in w/ a different view point than many others. There were SO many 18 year old punks who needed to cut the umbilical from momma. My only regret was that I didn't enlist when I was 18 like I wanted to. I was infantry in the Army and a corpsman w/ the Navy Reserves, but assigned to a Marine Reserve unit. I have been able to meet people and do things that the great majority of people don't get to do. I have respect for anyone who is willing to enlist and do their part.

jwilson

14th of October 2009 (Wed), 13:50

OK, to the OP...take what everyone here is saying with a grain of salt. Many have been "around" the military for years (in that their brother, mother, whoever, joined). Many are veterans themselves (retired years ago). I AM in the military, I AM serving in Iraq right now...haven't seen a single civilian photographer yet except those with the media. The photographers for the US Forces over here are Army and Navy photographers whom I'm getting to know fairly well (no, I'm not a Navy photographer, but since it's a major hobby for me, I do alot of shooting over here for them; in fact, last night, I shot the Navy's 234th Birthday ceremony in the Palace...in Sept I shot the 9/11 Memorial Service held by General Odierno (I'm on his staff, BTW) and am shooting a party hosted by General O in a couple of weeks). Again, AFN is constantly airing commercials for Army Combat Photographers with a significant enlistment bonus. My advice to you, as someone already stated, go talk to the Recruiters for the Army and the Navy. Also, don't be afraid of them as many of the posters on this thread are warning...yes, back in the day, some recruiters weren't exactly "honest." Those times have ended. Recruiters are having no problems meeting their goals so they can be a bit more selective. If you get a commitment from the services for a specialty and go thru the trng, they WILL NOT cross-train you to a different job as they are not going to invest the time and money to train you to do one thing and then have you do something else afterwards. As far as how well you need to do on the ASVAB goes, unfortunately, I'm not familiar...I'm commissioned (21 yrs and counting) and never had to take it.

CDR Jeff Wilson, USN, Live from Baghdad

nphsbuckeye

14th of October 2009 (Wed), 14:05

When I took my first leave back home after intel school, I visited a number of family friends, a couple of old teachers, and my old boss. Without exception, before I left each one edged into a final comment, "A couple of months ago, there were some government investigators here asking about you. What was that about?" They even asked the kids who lived across the street about me.

During my initial interview, they asked me where I was born (they asked, even though it was in my military records). I told them and asked if they needed me to prove it with a birth certificate. The investigator said, "No, we'll check it out."

As it happened, I had accidentally misspelled my birth town on my application, and an investigator actually made another trip to my base and scheduled another interview just to ask me, "Were you trying to conceal that information?"

That, by the way, is why we know Obama is an American citizen. Before leaving office, Bush and Cheney controlled the FBI, the CIA, the NSA, the Secret Service, the Defense Intelligence Agency, the IRS, the Defense Investigative Agency, and other groups nobody even knows about. Is it really likely they failed to check on the rumors about Obama's birth...when they even took the time to check on me?
Thanks for the reply. I figured really the only way it would cost that much is if the feds personally visited ones acquaintances. It makes sense, but it is very costly. I wonder how effective that is...

breal101

14th of October 2009 (Wed), 14:28

Yep, they do go through a lot for a Top Secret clearance, which isn't that high a clearance really. I won't get into specifics but when I worked for a government agency I was cleared above that just so I could go to all parts of the facility as a photographer. And just as a little balance to this thread and at the risk of being flamed I wanted to say the military isn't for everybody. A person who is a maverick by nature isn't going to do well there, anyone who can't go along to get along is going to chafe at some of the seemingly stupid rules and regulations. I grew up in a military family and went to college on a ROTC scholarship so I can speak with some personal knowledge. It may be the exception now days but there still exists the odd NCO who defines the other meaning of the acronym which is No Chance Outside.

jwilson

14th of October 2009 (Wed), 14:30

Thanks for the reply. I figured really the only way it would cost that much is if the feds personally visited ones acquaintances. It makes sense, but it is very costly. I wonder how effective that is...

How else would they do a background check aside from HS/College transcripts, bank accounts, and credit scores? None of those can provide any indication of one's character....

jeppoy

14th of October 2009 (Wed), 14:31

You have to ask yourself what kind of living condition can you take? Are you willing to deploy and get forward deployed, meaning you won't be in the same continent all the time. Can you go out there in the middle of Afghanistan and talk to the locals and get their trust so you can start taking their picture. Can you follow orders, have the discipline and courage to complete the mission. There are two type of photography in the Air Force, I can't say for other services. One is Public Affairs and the others is the kind of elite "Combat Photography" which is out there in the action scene, most of the time attached with the army and they do carry a weapon as part of a unit. Other is your everyday on base scene (photo journalism), portrait photography and events. Air Force official equipment is purely Nikon. Before you become a photographer, you have to pass through basic training and then technical training school. The Air Force requires higher aptitude scores and the last thing...you can't chose what you can and can't photograph in the military. So for those of you he say, she say, please stop pretending that you know something, even if you're a military brat, alot of times, you have no idea what you are talking about the military either.

asysin2leads

14th of October 2009 (Wed), 14:55

jeppoy

14th of October 2009 (Wed), 15:06

asysin2leads

14th of October 2009 (Wed), 15:33

Not everybody in the military know what others do, there are tons of career field in the military. The military is a community based that is self sufficient. I'm pretty sure, you don't know what everybody does in your community. Do you?

No, but he came here seeking advice. It was giving from a variety of perspectives. Unless I'm mistaken, forum, by definition is

: a public meeting place for open discussion c : a medium (as a newspaper or online service (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/#)) of open discussion or expression of ideas

We offered our experiences and viewpoints. Just what issue do you have with that? Why do you feel it's your place to criticize those who are offering sound advice?

jeppoy

14th of October 2009 (Wed), 15:45

Military is not a lifestyle, its is way of living and if you express your ideas not the facts, you are not only hurting him but it could cost him his life.

asysin2leads

14th of October 2009 (Wed), 16:04

Military is not a lifestyle, its is way of living and if you express your ideas not the facts, you are not only hurting him but it could cost him his life.

So, if I tell someone that being a cop is a good living then I am wrong because it's dangerous? Which, btw, I used to be and am now a firefighter/paramedic. Oh, wait, another dangerous job. I, as well as others here, have served in the military and know exactly what it entails. We might not have all the poop on every MOS out there, but we do have a practical knowledge of the military and military life. If you will see what EVERYONE who has offered advice told him not to go into it blindly. There are those who serve as unit photographers even though that is not their MOS. A fact that they clearly stated. Maybe I missed the post, and quite frankly, isn't worth my time looking for it, but just what military experience do you have and what qualifies you to criticize those who have offered advice?

jwilson

14th of October 2009 (Wed), 16:17

All services right now are teaching and using Nikon equipment. They are, however, field-testing Canons because of their new Video-capture technology is very good and can be very useful in the field.

jeppoy

14th of October 2009 (Wed), 16:18

I served in the AF recruiting service for 4 years and what he ask for is photography in the military not any other job you have mentioned. You are taking this whole thing out of context so get over it. Again, its about photography in the military, do you exactly know how to get into combat photography or regular photography in the military? By the way, I just spoke to an actual combat photographer that lives right across from me the other day and have asked him how to get into it, how to cross train into it and what does it take to be a combat photographer and as part of the recruiting service, we have every job description and qualification there is in the Air Force. But even then, I have to look it up when someone ask me so I don't give them the wrong information. That's what military publication is for.

jwilson

14th of October 2009 (Wed), 16:32

Which leads me to my original advice...talk to a recruiter. They know. You wouldn't ask a doctor who retired years ago about current techniques for brain surgery, you wouldn't talk to a doctor's son about brain surgery techniques, and you wouldn't ask a recent med school graduate to perform brain surgery...why would you seek advice on current recruiting trends, military careers, etc., from someone who left the service yrs ago (the military is constantly changing); why would you take the advice of a brother/mother/son of someone who served (or is serving) in the military but never served themselves; and you shouldn't take advice from an E-4 engineering type (or mechanic/
corpsman/tank driver/whatever) on requirements/opportunities in military journalism. Although I value and appreciate all of those people who did serve, they are fully unqualified (as am I despite being an active member of the military) to give you the proper advice except for TALK TO THE RECRUITER!!!!!!!!

jeppoy

14th of October 2009 (Wed), 16:38

you are right jwilson and all i wanted to say and I quote myself:

So for those of you he say, she say, please stop pretending that you know something, even if you're a military brat, alot of times, you have no idea what you are talking about the military either.

RDKirk

14th of October 2009 (Wed), 17:41

Yep, they do go through a lot for a Top Secret clearance, which isn't that high a clearance really.

I had to study this stuff to get into the field and for my promotion examinations.

Actually, TOP SECRET is the "highest" clearance. There is no security classification higher than TOP SECRET. At the level of TOP SECRET, some types of information are compartmented laterally in terms of "need to know," and those compartments are identified by codewords and programs.

For instance, the launch codes used by ballistic missile submarine crews will be TOP SECRET identified by some codeword and program that limits the information strictly to the people who need to know them. The encryption codes use by NSA will also be TOP SECRET--but under a different set of codewords that the sub crewmen aren't privy to, and vice versa.

This is called "special compartmented information"---that kind of document may say "TOP SECRET" with a cluster of alphabets or silly words behind it. It's still TOP SECRET, just divided laterally. Once you have the TOP SECRET clearance, don't do any further investigation on you--a commander of sufficient authority just has to certify that you have a need to know that particular compartment of information.

It's literally like different models of safes having different levels of security, and then each individual safe of a model type having its own combination. The security regulations specify how "strong" the security measures of each classification level must be. I worked my entire career in "Special Compartmented Information Facilities" (SCIFs) that were usually underground, always windowless, and were, in fact, fully sealed vaults with heavy, combination lock doors, solid and sealed concrete and steel walls, ceilings, and floors.

RDKirk

14th of October 2009 (Wed), 18:06

and you shouldn't take advice from an E-4 engineering type (or mechanic/
corpsman/tank driver/whatever) on requirements/opportunities in military journalism. Although I value and appreciate all of those people who did serve, they are fully unqualified (as am I despite being an active member of the military) to give you the proper advice except for TALK TO THE RECRUITER!!!!!!!!

Actually, what recruiters know is recruiting--that is, accessions. They don't know the assignment business, they don't know the training business. A recruiter, if he's scrupulous, can tell you exactly what your contract says, but he can't tell you a single thing that will happen to you beyond the actual words of the contract. He can get you in, and he can tell you that the service will stick to the letter of that contract, but that's as far as he can go.

As I said before: Read the contract carefully. It will not guarantee a job--it will guarantee training, and I knew plenty of people who were forced to crosstrain when the Service found it necessary...even computer programmers.

Actually, it might not even guarantee training--there are loopholes for the military. For instance, whether you get that training may well depend on you getting through basic training in the proper amount of time and making a particular technical school class start date. If, say, you get hurt or ill (or screw up) and wind up taking a month longer in basic, the military is not required to hold you on the books until the next class start. They will offer you a different job or a release from service.

Never, ever forget that service needs always come first. You get what you want only to the extent that it fits service needs.

If someone who is in a combat zone tells me he's surrounded by military combat photographers...well of course he is. That's why they have combat photographers--to send them into the combat zones. But the fact that one happens to be in the place where the bulk of the combat photographers are currently concentrated does not indicate the overall size or the openess of the field.

The Air Force went through a major stage of contract outsourcing during the 90s in which every non-combat AFSC and even many AFSCs that were direct combat support were evaluated in terms of what percentage must remain "blue suit" to deploy and what percentage could be outsourced. When that decision was made, there were a lot of people even in fields like aircraft flightline maintenance who were forced to crosstrain. Not all of them--enough were kept in blue suits to maintain deployment requirements.

So, as has been mentioned, in the Air Force you have combat photographers--who, during war are certainly going to be spending a lot of time in combat zones--and the photographers who do "grip-n-grins" back in the States. For sure, the combat photographers are going to be military--and there won't be many of them. But a great percentage of the Stateside photography "jobs" will be outsourced, or units will just get by with someone who happens to be good with a camera.

They go to a special joint-service school at Ft Belvoir and--as you've read above--they may serve jointly as well. The reason you will see a lot of Air Force combat photographers assigned to Army units is so the Army can devote more soldiers to soldiering. Yet, the Air Force will still base their requirements on Air Force needs, not the combined Army/Air Force needs.

RDKirk

14th of October 2009 (Wed), 18:10

By the way, I just spoke to an actual combat photographer that lives right across from me the other day and have asked him how to get into it, how to cross train into it and what does it take to be a combat photographer

And so what did he say?

breal101

14th of October 2009 (Wed), 20:32

I had to study this stuff to get into the field and for my promotion examinations.

Actually, TOP SECRET is the "highest" clearance. There is no security classification higher than TOP SECRET. At the level of TOP SECRET, some types of information are compartmented laterally in terms of "need to know," and those compartments are identified by codewords and programs.

For instance, the launch codes used by ballistic missile submarine crews will be TOP SECRET identified by some codeword and program that limits the information strictly to the people who need to know them. The encryption codes use by NSA will also be TOP SECRET--but under a different set of codewords that the sub crewmen aren't privy to, and vice versa.

This is called "special compartmented information"---that kind of document may say "TOP SECRET" with a cluster of alphabets or silly words behind it. It's still TOP SECRET, just divided laterally. Once you have the TOP SECRET clearance, don't do any further investigation on you--a commander of sufficient authority just has to certify that you have a need to know that particular compartment of information.

It's literally like different models of safes having different levels of security, and then each individual safe of a model type having its own combination. The security regulations specify how "strong" the security measures of each classification level must be. I worked my entire career in "Special Compartmented Information Facilities" (SCIFs) that were usually underground, always windowless, and were, in fact, fully sealed vaults with heavy, combination lock doors, solid and sealed concrete and steel walls, ceilings, and floors.

Thanks for clearing that up. All I knew was when I got the job I was given a Top Secret clearance after a month or so. I had to fill out some paperwork but not a lot different from the crap they made me go through to get a government drivers license. I thought it a bit odd since the agency I worked for was NASA and I was under the impression that they were not a secret organization. I later was given extra clearances to go to other facilities with other alphabet designations and it took a while for those to go through. I just assumed they were doing further investigations. What I guess is that we were the only semi secure color lab and photography department in the area and it was a matter of convenience to use us. It wasn't a part of my regular routine, just an occasional request. They had me shoot the job and then sent a couple of extremely humorless security people with me back to the lab to process and print the job, even standing in the darkroom with me. It was kind of scary and amusing at the same time, if I couldn't see what I was doing in the darkroom it seemed a bit silly for someone to be there with me. :lol: Also this was thirty years ago so even if I did see something I shouldn't talk about I've long since forgotten about it.

DDCSD

14th of October 2009 (Wed), 21:12

OP - I have a friend I was in the Navy with that has been a photographer in the Navy for about 12 years. She just got back from Iraq. PM me your email address and I can see if she has time to talk to you about it.

jeppoy

15th of October 2009 (Thu), 01:14

And so what did he say?

He said, combat photography is not what is use to be. Lately they have been taking photographers straight out of tech school since they are so undermanned. They used to take portfolio's from experienced regular photographer and thats how they determine their qualification. So it's not that elite anymore like it use to be.

His mission is getting out there (Afghanistan, Iraq) and get to know the locals so they would trust him to take their picture. He said you can't just start taking pictures out there or you will get shot. He carries his regular M-9 and M16 when he goes on a convoy on top of the gears that he carries. He does not do any flash photography since it attracks more attention to enemy combatant so high ISO and fast lens is a must. Foreward deployment is a regular gig for him so he's never around the local area that he is deployed to. He does not deal with any base photography events. They do is they photograph aircraft mission in the air. He does not own any of his photos as their property of the government and all of his shots goes to the Pentagon where they sort it and use for ads and DoD circulation products.

We also talked about the Adobe Software Library and what software he use and I use inside that library. I was so jelous and I admired him at the same time. He was so passionate on what he do. He said it's hard but he's loves his job because at the same time that was his hobby too. He mentioned he's leaving the Air Force to pursue it further. Good for him but a big lost to the Air Force.

asysin2leads

15th of October 2009 (Thu), 01:48

He does not do any flash photography since it attracks more attention to enemy combatant so high ISO and fast lens is a must.

Nothing pisses off the guys you're with more than attracting the attention of the enemy. :D

Rule #25 of Murphy's Law of Combat:

Never draw fire. It irritates those around you.

jwilson

15th of October 2009 (Thu), 01:59

Actually, what recruiters know is recruiting--that is, accessions. They don't know the assignment business, they don't know the training business. A recruiter, if he's scrupulous, can tell you exactly what your contract says, but he can't tell you a single thing that will happen to you beyond the actual words of the contract. He can get you in, and he can tell you that the service will stick to the letter of that contract, but that's as far as he can go.

As I said before: Read the contract carefully. It will not guarantee a job--it will guarantee training, and I knew plenty of people who were forced to crosstrain when the Service found it necessary...even computer programmers.

Actually, it might not even guarantee training--there are loopholes for the military. For instance, whether you get that training may well depend on you getting through basic training in the proper amount of time and making a particular technical school class start date. If, say, you get hurt or ill (or screw up) and wind up taking a month longer in basic, the military is not required to hold you on the books until the next class start. They will offer you a different job or a release from service.

Never, ever forget that service needs always come first. You get what you want only to the extent that it fits service needs.

If someone who is in a combat zone tells me he's surrounded by military combat photographers...well of course he is. That's why they have combat photographers--to send them into the combat zones. But the fact that one happens to be in the place where the bulk of the combat photographers are currently concentrated does not indicate the overall size or the openess of the field.

The Air Force went through a major stage of contract outsourcing during the 90s in which every non-combat AFSC and even many AFSCs that were direct combat support were evaluated in terms of what percentage must remain "blue suit" to deploy and what percentage could be outsourced. When that decision was made, there were a lot of people even in fields like aircraft flightline maintenance who were forced to crosstrain. Not all of them--enough were kept in blue suits to maintain deployment requirements.

So, as has been mentioned, in the Air Force you have combat photographers--who, during war are certainly going to be spending a lot of time in combat zones--and the photographers who do "grip-n-grins" back in the States. For sure, the combat photographers are going to be military--and there won't be many of them. But a great percentage of the Stateside photography "jobs" will be outsourced, or units will just get by with someone who happens to be good with a camera.

They go to a special joint-service school at Ft Belvoir and--as you've read above--they may serve jointly as well. The reason you will see a lot of Air Force combat photographers assigned to Army units is so the Army can devote more soldiers to soldiering. Yet, the Air Force will still base their requirements on Air Force needs, not the combined Army/Air Force needs.

First, no...you are wrong. Recruiters know more than just accession. They work with the assignment folks, they have to know which career fields are "locked" or overmanned and which career fields are in high demand. Secondly, it wouldn't surprise me if the Air Force contracted out their routine photography work...they've pretty much contracted out everything else. They're not called the "Chair Force" for nothing! Ha, ha. Thirdly, the OP specifically asked about the Army or the Navy. You may be giving great info about the Air Force but that's not what he asked; and no, all the services are not the same. As I already said...the Army wouldn't be advertising and offering enlistment bonuses for photographers if they didn't NEED them. The best thing for this kid to do is to talk to the recruiters.

scot079

15th of October 2009 (Thu), 05:45

I've been active USAF for 9 years. I've known a couple photographers, they seemed to enjoy their job. I work here at Ft Meade, MD and the joint photo school (DINFOS) is here. The photography students carry around their Domke bags with Dorkon cameras snapping away like a tourist. The other day I saw them taking pictures of BX employees stocking shelves, ringing people up, etc. David Hobby visits them even, he posts an article about the visit on the strobist blog.

Nothing pisses off the guys you're with more than attracting the attention of the enemy. :D

Rule #25 of Murphy's Law of Combat:

Never draw fire. It irritates those around you.

That sounds like something Richard Marcinko would say!

asysin2leads

15th of October 2009 (Thu), 09:16

I've been active USAF for 9 years. I've known a couple photographers, they seemed to enjoy their job. I work here at Ft Meade, MD and the joint photo school (DINFOS) is here. The photography students carry around their Domke bags with Dorkon cameras snapping away like a tourist. The other day I saw them taking pictures of BX employees stocking shelves, ringing people up, etc. David Hobby visits them even, he posts an article about the visit on the strobist blog.

That sounds like something Richard Marcinko would say!

How do you know I'm not him? Oh, wait, I don't really exist.http://fc05.deviantart.com/fs32/f/2008/204/2/f/Shifty_Eyes_Emoticon_by_Canaan1.gif

S.Horton

15th of October 2009 (Thu), 09:21

Have you considered FEMA?

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=FEMA+job+photography&aq=f&aqi=&oq=&fp=2755c6b3e9b2e9

jwilson

15th of October 2009 (Thu), 09:23

Don't go Rogue, now!!!!!

RDKirk

15th of October 2009 (Thu), 09:32

First, no...you are wrong. Recruiters know more than just accession. They work with the assignment folks, they have to know which career fields are "locked" or overmanned and which career fields are in high demand.

Sorry, friend, but that is not "knowing assignments" that's still just knowing accession. What do they know about the details of Join Spouse or CHAP? What do they know about the differences between the senior NCO and junior enlisted assignment process? What do they know about how assignments are round-robined between MAJCOMs so that manning shortages are evened out--which is why a person often can't get an assignment even when he knows it's undermanned?

What they know about assignments are the specfic details they have to know for the accession process. They don't know about assigments beyond that (unless, of course, a particular recruiter had once been in the assignment role).

Secondly, it wouldn't surprise me if the Air Force contracted out their routine photography work...they've pretty much contracted out everything else. They're not called the "Chair Force" for nothing! Ha, ha.

By contracting out the slots that aren't required for deployment, the Air Force actually ensures the blue suiters are not merely a "chair force." The chairs are mainly occupied by civilians.

may be giving great info about the Air Force but that's not what he asked; and no, all the services are not the same. As I already said...the Army wouldn't be advertising and offering enlistment bonuses for photographers if they didn't NEED them.

I spent the last fifteen years of my career in joint assignments with soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines working for me. I got very involved in the training, promotion, and retention processes of all the services because I had to manage subordinates of all the services (I even served on Navy ranking boards)--and the basic pressures and responses that influence retention don't vary much because human nature and economic principles don't change much.

Some fields are kept small because the requirement is small, and even though they really need that number, they have no intention of increasing the number. But even in a small field--especially one exposed to combat--there can be a high turnover rate (EOD, for instance, or SEALs) but if the field is intended to be kept limited, there may never be any great number of slots available. They may have a very high need to fill a very small number of slots which will still mean it can be difficult to get a slot. It's kind of like a lottery: "Many will enter, few will win."

The best thing for this kid to do is to talk to the recruiters.

I never said any differently. The recruiter will know what is available at any current moment.

What I have been saying is: Read the contract carefully and understand that nothing is promised beyond the specific wording of the contract. 'Way too many people enlist based on assumptions of what the contract implies rather than what it actually says.

It has been said in this thread before, and I will re-iterate in different words. Being in the military is being military. It's not just being a photographer or being a computer programmer or being a cook. It's being a soldier or a sailor or an airman or a Marine.

That does not mean you're necessarily going to be carrying a rifle or scraping rust off the hull of a ship, but it does mean that in your head you're going to have to accept the "being" of a soldier, sailor, airman, or Marine. If you can't accept the premises that pockets should be buttoned, lines should be straight, orders should be obeyed, The Mission Must Succeed, and that such things add up to a properly functioning world, then the military is not for you, regardless of your job.

I still check all my buttons, I still keep my shoes shined, I still keep my gig line straight, I still gather my shirts into a V-pleat at the small of my back. I've had more than one person tell me, "You were in the military, weren't you? I can tell by how you walk."

nphsbuckeye

15th of October 2009 (Thu), 10:20

How else would they do a background check aside from HS/College transcripts, bank accounts, and credit scores? None of those can provide any indication of one's character....
What's your point? That's what I said.

LBaldwin

15th of October 2009 (Thu), 11:12

To the OP,

I tried to get photo, but ended up a truck driver after the AF weenies lied to me about school, but that was 25+ years ago. My advise, that my Dad gave me is to seek out the folks that are DOING the job and see what insight they can give you. Go to the closest base for branch, and talk to to the enlisted and officers for that job, in this case it would be PIO, combat camera or other photo-video related fields. The next step is go and get an eye test to make sure that your vision and color acuity is going to pass muster, if you are below a certain percentage you won't get the school slot when it opens up, somthing the other mouth breathers (recruiters) haven't told you.

There is plenty that you can find out PRIOR to talking to the recruiters, like the location and length of the school. Basic requirements for the school, usual first and second duty stations if you don't get to pick your own. If they cannot get this as a primary MOS then is a secondary MOS likely?

You will need a clearance, so if you smoke crack all day and torture small forest animals they will find out and send you to the infantry or even better MP's lol JUST A JOKE I don't want nasty grams from your ground pounders!!

jeppoy

15th of October 2009 (Thu), 13:18

If you don't feel comfortable you can go to airforce.com and chat with a recruiter and I'd stop listening to any of these folks has to say. RDKirk, first of all recruiters are military too and they know what a joint spouse assignment is . The main mission of recruiter is to recruit and be a laiason between the public and the Air Force. The Operation section which reside in the main recruiting squadron has the quotas and available jobs which they get from the HQ Recruiting Service (HRS). Now it is the job of a recruiter to sell what the current job availability. You have a choice to take it or not, some is just stupid enough to just take an "open general" which means you gave the Air Force entitlement to put you where they need it and then later complain that the air force screwed them. If the job you wanted is not available, you can sign in for the delayed enlistment program in which you wait till the job opens and when it does thats when they ship you to basic training. Recruiting service does not deal with assignments, because every recruit goes to basic training and thats it. Your assignment is determined upon a week or two of graduation from technical school, that is if you don't wash out. They will give you an initial assignment rip and you have the choice to swap out with other students that are willing to swap if you don't like what the AF gives you. For the initial process what the military does is conduct an initial security background check (NACLC) to determine your eligibility for security clearance. They will ask you if you use any type of drugs and theres drugs that military waivers. They will also process medical and physical but thats after you pass the ASVAB test. After you pass those things thats where they determine your job eligility. The only time you are committed is when you recite the oath of enlistment and sign the contract.

jeppoy

15th of October 2009 (Thu), 13:21

By the way the term accession is for officers only....enlisted is enlistment.

RDKirk

15th of October 2009 (Thu), 14:54

RDKirk, first of all recruiters are military too and they know what a joint spouse assignment is .

Sure, they know as much about it as anyone else who has been around for a while, but the point I made clear is that it's not their job. The don't "know" the assignment business they know (that is, were trained in) recruiting and and were trained to know about the assignment business only as much as it touches upon recruiting

By the way the term accession is for officers only....enlisted is enlistment.

Actually, "accession" is used as the most generic term for inducting new members into the service. The direct complement to "enlistment" is "commissioning."

For instance, see:

AIR FORCE TRAINING RIBBON
This ribbon was authorized by the Air Force chief of staff on Oct. 12, 1980. It is awarded to U.S. Air Force service members on completion of initial accession training after Aug. 14, 1974. In December 1986, the criteria expanded and authorized the ribbon to anyone who was on active duty regardless of when they completed initial accession training.

http://www.afpc.randolph.af.mil/library/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=7829

Or are you going to tell me that the Air Force Personnel Center doesn't know what "accession" means?

jwilson

15th of October 2009 (Thu), 17:01

I'm not going to engage in a "who's more military" debate...some of you are intimately familiar, some of you served a long time ago and your info is dated. And I know very little about Air Force regs/procedures (eventhough I serve with them). And I self-admittedly am not an expert on the enlisted accession process (and, yes, accession is a proper term). So, I will say one last time...talk to a recruiter. And if you have questions about a specific rating (Navy), MOS (Army), ask them to provide info and also ask if they can arrange for you to talk to someone in that specific field. Also, I never said just sign the contract...as with any contract, you want to know what you are signing. Again,if the service is going to spend the time and money to train you to be a photographer, you WILL be a photographer, provided you don't fail out of the school. You will also have other responsibilities, especially as a junior enlisted men (cleaning, guard duty, standing other types of watches, etc.), and, yes, you have to be "military," ie. properly wear the uniform, etc. as RDKirk said. But, they are not going to train you to be a photographer and then assign you a job as a helo mechanic or a cook. So, as I've said consistently....talk to a recruiter.

And to RDKirk, having trained members of the sister services working for you, serving on Navy ranking boards (which, although very important, isn't really that big of a deal), being involved in training, promotion, and retention processes for those ALREADY in the military isn't the same as being intimately involved in Navy/Army/Marine recruiting goals and processes. I'm sure your an expert on the Air Force, never implied anything different, but the services DO DIFFER and he was asking specifically about the Navy and the Army and, again, I, with over 20 yrs service myself, never claimed to be an expert. So, that's why he needs to talk to a recruiter - not to you, not to me. Peace!

Lonnie

15th of October 2009 (Thu), 17:18

How else would they do a background check aside from HS/College transcripts, bank accounts, and credit scores? None of those can provide any indication of one's character....

One way they accomplish this -

They ask you to give them a list of names of people you have known. Friends, neighbors, teachers. They then go to the people on the list you give them. They don't ask them anything, they ask them to name a person or two that is mutually known. Then, they may even do they same thing with the next person.

So - the investigator will end up talking to a lot of ex-girlfriends, neighbors that didn't like you or maybe the guy you used to smoke pot with for years. And they will get the real dirt from them.

The real dirt won't hurt you, as long as you disclose it beforehand.

LBaldwin

15th of October 2009 (Thu), 20:16

To the rest of the friends here, unless you are actually a DSS investigators, with access to JPAS, may I suggest that you discontinue speculation on how clearances are conducted, becuase no two are exactly alike. That and open discussions about clearances are frowned upon, and may effect any current ones that you may hold.

With respect,

Les

nphsbuckeye

16th of October 2009 (Fri), 00:55

FlyingPhotog

16th of October 2009 (Fri), 01:00

Definately Go Air Force:

http://upload.pbase.com/flyingphotog/image/118338459/medium.jpg

jeppoy

16th of October 2009 (Fri), 01:01

Sure, they know as much about it as anyone else who has been around for a while, but the point I made clear is that it's not their job. The don't "know" the assignment business they know (that is, were trained in) recruiting and and were trained to know about the assignment business only as much as it touches upon recruiting

Actually, "accession" is used as the most generic term for inducting new members into the service. The direct complement to "enlistment" is "commissioning."

For instance, see:

http://www.afpc.randolph.af.mil/library/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=7829

Or are you going to tell me that the Air Force Personnel Center doesn't know what "accession" means?

You don't comission an enlisted member, there's a reason why they call them Non-Commisioned Officer (NCO)......nowhere near it complements enlistment.

jwilson

16th of October 2009 (Fri), 02:43

quote=jeppoy;8831899]You don't comission an enlisted member, there's a reason why they call them Non-Commisioned Officer (NCO)......nowhere near it complements enlistment.[/quote]

Sorry, Jeppoy...RDKirk is correct. Accession is the generic term...enlisting (for enlisted) and commissioning (for officers) are more specific terms.

jeppoy

16th of October 2009 (Fri), 04:58

this will be a never ending cycle...im going to quit now :D thanks

JWright

17th of October 2009 (Sat), 18:04

Seems this has drifted a bit off the OP's original question...

Coming from someone who was in the military(Air Force) and did photography, i can tell you this is very true...

Most of military photography is being sub-contracted out through civilians anymore...

Not around here... I was in the media chalet at the MCAS Miramar air show a couple of weeks ago and the place was lousy with Navy and Marine Corps photographers. How do I know they were military photographers? They were in uniform...

Go to that website and see how many civilians are credited with photos.

Take a look at the Navy's official photo site and see how many photos are credited to civilians. Not many...

http://www.navy.mil/view_photos_top.asp

Have you considered FEMA?

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=FEMA+job+photography&aq=f&aqi=&oq=&fp=2755c6b3e9b2e9

I hop that was a joke because all I saw were a bunch of links to some conspiracy theorist FEMA photographer claiming 9/11 was an inside job...