Wedding Photography - Proof that the lowball takes business away from others

[form]

Post 1: A****

I was all set on hiring **** ***** {me} for our photography when I found out about **** ************ {other photographer}. They are running a special through the end of the month that is 4 hours for $100 and 10 hours for $300! Has anyone ever used him or know anyone who has? His portfolio looks really interesting but there's not much on there in terms of what he has shot during the ceremony.


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Reply from B****

Does he have a website? I did a search and couldn't find anything.
I would definitely ask for samples of previous work. Its a great deal if hes just starting weddings and you just need someone to take the photos, and do not particularly care about a style or quality. If he does have experience with Weddings and you like his style, I would JUMP on that deal! :)


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Reply from D***

His website is **********.com

We've hired him for our Strip Tour photos.
His pictures look great!


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Reply from C****

Hi A*****,

Just wondered where you saw this special price advertised? I just checked out his website maybe I missed it.

That price is unbelieveable!


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Reply from A*****

C****,

I filled out their contact info and *****{other photographer's secretary} e-mailed me. I couldn't believe it, so I emailed her back and confirmed. We are going to book him. Ask her to see some more albums of his work, he is really talented.


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Reply from C****

Hi A*****,
I have filled out the form just waiting to get reply, im booking straight away that price is unbelieveable, do you think there are any hidden costs it be better to hear from someone that has booked him in a way.

The photographer that we were supposed to get {not me, I never use "49" or "99" in my quote prices} have increased the price from 349 to 499, Im not happy with him at the moment and I wont be hiring him he quoted me couple weeks ago and then just changed it so thank god I didnt put deposit down.


______________________________

Sigh. That was going to be a good job for me and would have filled in one of my days in June 2010, which desperately needs filling. Even at my least expensive I couldn't compete with that offer.

[Karl Johnston]

Just curious but why did you increase the price from 350 to 500?

That blows...:( bad publicity sucks..especially in review.

[JayCee Images]

With the invent of increasingly easier to use DSLR's and huge amounts of cheap or free post processing software and plug ins, its turning the profession of photography into a more cut-throat game more than ever before. Its given any joe-schmoe with a decent camera, the ability to produce great images with little effort and has really taken out the creativity and experience that was necessary for professional photographers only a small handful of years ago... Theres enough portfolios flying around out there that its super easy to re-create scenes that a good photographer has made with very basic equipment and and a little bit knowledge that can be picked up from any search engine on the internet. And with the way the economy is today and the amount of people who are jobless, they will stop at nothing to make a few extra bucks...even if it means undercutting the real, legitimate professionals out there.

Mark my words...Its unfortunately only going to get worse as time and technology marches on... :confused:

[form]

I didn't increase any prices; the person who raised prices was not me, it was some other photographer. I lost one job and other potential jobs from that post. I didn't get bad publicity, but it did show that I don't have the cheapest offer going.

Some of the people on this forum would claim that it's just my own stuff coming back to bite me, but I never offered my work for that low a price.

It's depressing that I should lose out to another photographer on the sole basis of price. The client said she loved my photos...then she said in the posts that she loved his photos...I guess all those people who have said "you should charge more" are wrong, because this is what happens when I charge more: I lose business to el cheapo. Clearly my stuff is not significantly better than theirs, so I should just stay put in the budget zone where I can't really afford to do the work anymore.

[CatchingUp]

You know...I'm not singling you out to jump on your case, but I do see countless postings like this where it seems photographers like to whine about someone cutting in on their business. I don't get it? It's called the free market place.

If someone comes along and outbids you, or offers super cheap rates, what should be done? If you're just 'venting', well so be it. But it's not like people are doing anything illegal. If prospective clients are just looking for the cheapest way out, then it will serve them right if they end up with what they pay for. You can't stop people's ignorance.

But the other poster is right - in this particular field, this trend will only continue to increase as the technological advances do also.

I guess your only choices are to find another craft, or just go with the flow. I'm sure it's frustrating to some, but seriously...it just sounds like pointless whining.

[form]

It is a vent, but there are many people who say that "those who want quality or your style will pick you in spite of other lower priced photographers." Since some have even said that to me, the post becomes a "You were WRONG" statement. I'm sure that those really great shooters whose skill is on a very high level really don't get impacted much by the $300 photographer; however, I'm not on their level, so I can and do take a hit from those ultra lowballs.

[SOK]

It's depressing that I should lose out to another photographer on the sole basis of price.

I take it you're not married? Regardless of budget, B&G's have countless conflicting priorities when planning how to part with their dollars for the wedding day. So they found someone of similar quality for less money...I'm confused how this would surprise or depress you...?

I guess all those people who have said "you should charge more" are wrong, because this is what happens when I charge more: I lose business to el cheapo.

Your logic staggers me. So if you're the lowest bidder, you're in the "budget zone", and if someone undercuts you, they're "el cheapo"?

[form]

Similar quality? I don't believe that's the case. I'm also not the lowest bidder by any means. I'm still a budget shooter, but I've moved up to the upper range of that category.

[gravy graffix]

anyone that pays sub 500 for a wedding tog deserves what they get.

got this from another forum...

I went to a sporting event instead of shooting a wedding this past Sat. because the bride decided to use someone else that is much cheaper and has a family connection. The bride told me that this was going to be an outside wedding come hell or high water, she called it just right as we had downpours on Sat. On my way home from the event I went to I had to drive by the park where the wedding was taking place. It was raining sideways and everyone was soaked, I pulled up on a hill and got my field glasses to “sort of stalk the scene”. The sight through the field glasses was stunning: people with umbrellas up, people with raincoats over their head, people leaving, people holding chairs over their heads, the photographer was trying to hold an umbrella but it was nearly impossible due to the wind and rain. When I arrived on this morning at work there were 2 messages on my machine one from the photographer on Sat. she told me that her only camera was soaking wet due to the rain at the wedding and wanted to know if she could borrow one for the reception, the other call was from Monday when she found out that she had nothing on the card that was in the soaked camera and could I run it through my recovery program. All she got was from the reception when she borrowed a point and shoot from a guest.
I sure the bride will be happy that she went the cheap and friendly route.




send that to them...

[form]

I saw that post a few days ago. I'm not going to send anything like that to the bride; whatever they get is what they get and it would be extremely unprofessional of me to taunt them.

[cdifoto]

You can't charge more based on photos alone. You have to bring the whole package. That includes personality and a presentation that makes it clear that you know what you're doing and have your sh*t together.

[form]

There we go with personality again, where it usually doesn't even come into play except via email unless the bride wants a consultation beforehand. I don't have any non-professional airs when I communicate with brides. As for presentation, what the other photographer offers and what their portfolio shows is on par with the lower-middle quality budget range.

[cdifoto]

Sounds to me like all you want to do is bitch and complain. You don't seem to have any interest in solving your problems.

[form]

It's a problem I have no solution to. He got the job and whoever is satisfied with his work will use him, rave about him and get others to use him. The solution for me is to hope that others don't see his advertisements. The brides want cheap, and he gives it to them.

[JayCee Images]

There we go with personality again, where it usually doesn't even come into play except via email unless the bride wants a consultation beforehand. I don't have any non-professional airs when I communicate with brides. As for presentation, what the other photographer offers and what their portfolio shows is on par with the lower-middle quality budget range.


Are you kidding me?? Ive booked more clients with a friendly smile, an outgoing, go get-em attitude and a little enthusiasm more than any amount of advertising has ever gotten me...

Personality, even more so than professionalism, is easily the biggest "make it or break it" selling point for booking clients...maybe try showing some? :rolleyes:

[form]

All of my jobs come from the internet, including the referrals I've gotten from previous clients. Most of the brides are not locals and they have little or no family here, so I don't tend to meet many potential clients while on the job. It probably doesn't help my networking that I stay pretty much engrossed in my work when I'm shooting.

[CatchingUp]

I'm pretty comfortable with my skills and with the quality of stuff I have produced. But I'm sitting here wondering what I would have done in a driving rain storm like was described above here? Not sure that is a relevant incident to cite. ?

[form]

The point of that post was that the bride was stubborn and cheap. She insisted on an impossible wedding situation and hired the more inexpensive solution, and as a result of both decisions she probably suffered a bit of dissatisfaction.

My original post was just showing proof that the lower bid really does get the business (even if it turns the job into something nearly worthless), and venting about losing what would've been a very nice job. The other photographer is charging 1/6th of what I quoted the bride (his offer is $100 for 4 hours). I'm sore about losing the job, especially just because of price shopping. It's more concerning to me because I am going to find myself in a very dire financial situation next summer if I don't get lots of filled dates.

[cdifoto]

I get a lot of inquiries. Some discussions end as soon as I cite my basic costs. So what? Instead of crying, I move on and try to land the next one.

[CatchingUp]

Again, I understand your concern and frustration. But getting mad at the marketplace is pointless. What would you have told your neighbor years ago who made a living repairing public payphones as he saw his business future drying up? Getting mad at people who bought cell phones wouldn't solve his problem at all. :-)

[form]

Right, he would have to start selling cell phones instead. I can't afford to sell cell phones (adapt and become one of them) unless I am willing to not bother editing the photos (to allow more time for shooting to make up for the lower per-job profits).

[JayCee Images]

The way i see it, youve kind of given an answer to your own rant...

Either considerably step up your quality, techniques and style and keep charging your current prices...OR, lower your prices to keep up with the lower priced guys who are putting out good work and get more bookings.

Id go for the first option personally...its a changing world, economy and job market...only the ones who can adapt will survive.

[form]

It's easier to want to improve than to actually do it. I've wanted to improve for a while but I reached a plateau about 6-8 months ago and just haven't progressed since then. It's been a bit frustrating but I can't seem to figure out what would help me really get better that is also within my reach.

[_aravena]

Photography is a side job for me. I am substitute teaching now and hopefully will begin teaching next year school year. I under cut a lot, $100/hr. People say I should go up, but right now I'm worried and like I said, it's like a nice bonus when I have wedding. I also negotiate a lot since I'm in a really poor area.

Now...$100 for 4hrs!!! Bah! That's not worth my time. I'm desperate for money but I'd spend way to much time on that wedding for $100 or I'd select a simple "edit all" 'cause that's insane. And I thought I was cheap.

[Curtis N]

Sounds to me like all you want to do is bitch and complain. You don't seem to have any interest in solving your problems.I have to agree.

You need to get something through your head. No matter what you sell, no matter what price, you will always lose customers to someone who sells something similar, cheaper. It's part of what makes capitalism work, and you need to accept it.

If you want to make a living in the business of photography, then you need to do more than become a better photographer. You need to become a better businessman. There is a world of resources out there, including this forum, for people who really want to learn about such things and are willing to make the effort.

The Lexus dealer down the road isn't complaining about being undercut by the Chevy dealer. He's learning how to do a better job of marketing his product.

And the Hyundai dealer in this town isn't griping about being undercut by the Hyundai dealer in the next town. He's learning how to do a better job of marketing his product.

And they aren't posting threads on autodealer.com, whining about being undercut. They know that won't help them reach their goals.

[_aravena]

Well, their prices are dropping considerably which may something the OP should consider.

[cdifoto]

Well, their prices are dropping considerably which may something the OP should consider.
They are?

I know you could get a Dodge on the cheap for awhile when the dealers were shutting down and trying to liquidate stock, but Lexus' still seem to be pretty damned pricey. I looked on Lexus.com and their least expensive model starts at just a shade under $32,000.

[_aravena]

Need to go to a lot. new cars are always expensive but last year's so so insanely cheap for Lexus and just a year old? They normally drop being "a year old" but it's quite crazy. It's like Camry or Lexus? :lol:

[CatchingUp]

The car analogy is a good one. You have to determine who your potential clients are. Dealerships who sell upper end autos could careless about people buying used lower end cars. They know their clients and cater specifically to them. Any Joe-Bob can open up a used car lot on main street. But if he has no business sense, he'll be closing up shop in no time. And the people that dealt with him will be the ones who lose out -learning a life lesson that you get what you pay for.

Personally, for myself, I don't worry about how I might be affecting other photographers in the area. The people I shoot weddings for, are not going to be able to afford the 'Lexus' end of wedding photographers. Nor do I feel a need to compete with them. And believe it or not, there are people who think I might be high...and just don't have the funds to spend on that aspect of a wedding. If they can find someone cheaper than me...more power to them. But, I don't do this full time for a living. I'm like the other poster and teach full time - weddings and other gigs support my photo habit. :-)

[_aravena]

Yup and allow for those bonus buys every now and then! :D I try to work with people 'cause it's their wedding and it needs to captured.

Sometimes I wonder the pompousness of people though when I look in the market area and some photographer is submitting a wedding for a couple, they know sometimes, and saying how great they are and need a photographer but not 'cause the photog is book but because they can't afford them. I tell my "friend" to go screw himself and gladly find someone else. I find that rather ridiculous and I've seen it too often. You're rather pathetic if you can't drop your price or do it for free for friends.

[Photosmiles]

Wow - this post was good for a chuckle... I am looking for a laptop for post processing when I am on the road. I typed post-processing in the search and this is where I ended up. Here's to all the use car salesmen and el cheap o photographers out there.:lol:

[sapearl]

We discussed this in your other thread Joey. You are your own worst enemy - it's your defeatist and negative attitude that holds you back the most. Go back and reread all the posts and excellent constructive suggestions that many POTN folks offered.

The solution is pretty obvious if you really love photography and want to continue in that direction, no matter what.

Once you graduate, get TWO JOBS. The regular F.T. gig that will keep gas in the car and rent at the ready, and the side photography business that will add a little extra to your wallet, and satisfy the creative needs.

That is what I did; I didn't plan it that way, but that's how it worked out over the years. And it has led to a very happy and satisfying life, in my situation. Are you saying you have not progressed because you have not be rewarded with more sales, or do you feel the quality/creativity of your actual work has not moved forward?

It's easier to want to improve than to actually do it. I've wanted to improve for a while but I reached a plateau about 6-8 months ago and just haven't progressed since then. It's been a bit frustrating but I can't seem to figure out what would help me really get better that is also within my reach.

[form]

Unfortunately I started off catering to the budget crowds and they are the same ones who tend to jump at the lowest prices. I really don't know how to switch gears and direct my advertisement toward the middle group. I mean, technically if I had a fancy flash website with the layouts now predominating the modern photography site, it would put my site more in line with mid and upper level photographers. However, the words and the essence still need to be there, and I know that anything I write personally is not going to work. I am not skilled enough in flash to make such a website myself and paying somebody else isn't an option. But, that would probably make me look more like mid-upper level quality.

Actually I plan to try to keep shooting after I graduate; my regular day job should take up no more than 4 days a week, and the rest of the time can be spent with photography ventures.

By not progressing, I mean my personal level of skill at photography has not improved. There are so many photographers whose skill I envy and wish I could attain myself, but I feel stuck. It's a glass ceiling of sorts. I don't have thousands to spend on the seminars/workshops, but I do read about photography every day (not just the forum gossip).

[TheHoff]

www.bludomain.com
www.bigfolio.com

Top one starts at $100 goes to $400 + $100 hosting for a flash site. Bad service but it is what a lot of others use.

Bottom one is more expensive, fewer templates to choose from, but better looking and good service.

Voila... instant flash site. Now you're mid-level.

[amfoto1]

I'll let you in on a little secret....

There will always be someone offering to do your job cheaper.

You just have to be better than they are, to win the business.

If you are always trolling for clients at the bottom of the heap, you'll always be surrounded by bottom feeders whose only means of competing is to charge a lower price than the next guy. Don't worry, they won't survive long at those rates. They aren't making back their investment and won't be able to replace their camera when it breaks. If you try to compete on those terms you will be lowering the bar even more and putting yourself at risk of going out of business.

You have a very clear choice... Reposition yourself into a more lucrative part of the market, or see your business die a slow, painful death in a relentlessly downward spiraling price war.

You've been gnawing on this bone for how long now, anyway?

The reason people encouraged you in the past to raise your prices considerably was to get you away from the bottom of the market where you'll always be getting undercut and the clients are more concerned about price than quality. You chose not to do so and this is what happens... and will continue to happen.

The people you want to work for are the ones who could care less how much it costs... (google Bambi Cantrell and look at her prices). Work on that, instead of how to "compete" way down at the bottom of the heap.

Hey, I'm not a wedding photographer, but if I were in your position I'd sell my 35L and 85L, replace them with 28/1.8 and 85/1.8, and that would give me the funds to buy a very nice website and to put some printed brochures out in every wedding-related business in town, maybe even cover the cost of a booth at the next Bridal Fair. I'd emphasize quality and experience (over cheapness) in all my marketing. I'd get past clients to do testimonials. I'd put together a hellaciously good portfolio of 12 to 20 of my very best images printed 11x14, and anything else that would set me well apart from the bottom feeders. Polish up your contract and presentation, too. That doesn't cost much of anything. Take a sales seminar, instead of a photography seminar. Are there any marketing classes in your school? If so, take one or more!

[cdifoto]

Heh. Deja vu all over again. :)

[form]

I started by being a budget photographer because I was just starting out. I'm not intentionally trying to appeal to budget clients anymore. I used to focus my advertisements on affordability, but now virtually every word that suggests "inexpensive" has been removed from my ads and website in an attempt to avoid being seen as a budget option.

Yes this is becoming like the last thread and I really just wanted to vent. Not everyone will go the cheaper route and I know that. My real interest is still in improving skill and possibly developing some kind of niche style.

[gravy graffix]

I understand Your frustration but if she wants to spend a benji on her wedding photos, she's not even in your market. Your pitching hondas and she wants a winter beater...While it's irritating to read what transpired you gotta brush it off and polish what the other poster said. Some times I feel like doing 1k weddings to fill up, but I'm holding tight as I'm worth 3x that. But I'm having a hard time getting past 1600 in this market even thi Fred fox big box is some how eeking 5-7k and turning out mediocre photos.

[form]

Must be nice having a hard time getting past 1600. I'm afraid I'd have a heart attack if someone handed that kind of money over to me for a wedding. My most expensive was $650 - although after that I decided to increase my rates. However, since I upped them I haven't booked anything either. Just the same, there are several local photographers in the 1-2k range who do rather bad work and that really bothers me - not that I can't get as much as they do, but that they charge so much for sub-par work.

[cdifoto]

Go after their clients then.

[_aravena]

o0o0o I have A LOT of those.

[JayCee Images]

Go after their clients then.

If they are that bad and they are that expensive, they probably dont have any....or somethin else smells fishy in this story... :rolleyes:

[Tumeg]

www.bludomain.com (http://www.bludomain.com)
www.bigfolio.com (http://www.bigfolio.com)

Top one starts at $100 goes to $400 + $100 hosting for a flash site. Bad service but it is what a lot of others use.

Bottom one is more expensive, fewer templates to choose from, but better looking and good service.

Voila... instant flash site. Now you're mid-level.

I use www.photobiz.com
I LOVE it... $125 one time fee, than $15/mo hosting (depends on how many photos you plan to have hosted, at any given time).

Switch between templates whenever, and all your content\photos stay in place, etc.
When you move up in the business, you can pay the next $125 one-time setup fee, for the online shopping cart for clients to buy prints (You set the prices, and can have the prints sent directly to the client, or to yourself first)...

A tad off the main topic, but I thought I'd throw in another fairly cheap suggestion for a pro-looking, flash site.

[gooble]

This thread is interesting. I wouldn't do a wedding for less than $1500.

[gravy graffix]

Really? In Henderson?? I lived there and was there a few years ago. Place is vowing like mad.

[jptsr1]

low-ballers are not taking business from others. if a shooter charging less than you can yank your clients then the business wasn't really yours to begin with. sucks that you lost the gig though.

[form]

Really? In Henderson?? I lived there and was there a few years ago. Place is vowing like mad.


Henderson/Las Vegas has lots of weddings, but many of them are budget conscious, even the ones getting married at the Wynn or a country club. They pick a nice chapel and sometimes a very nice reception site, but photography seems to be low on the totem pole. I know that the most popular photographer among some of the wedding forums charges from $298 for 2 hours to $798 for 8 hours. He includes a scaling quantity of 4x6" prints, plus a DVD disc of the color corrected photos he printed and digital negatives of the rest. People love his work. he's at http://www.wilsonphoto.20m.com/

[symbolphoto]

Henderson/Las Vegas has lots of weddings, but many of them are budget conscious, even the ones getting married at the Wynn or a country club. They pick a nice chapel and sometimes a very nice reception site, but photography seems to be low on the totem pole. I know that the most popular photographer among some of the wedding forums charges from $298 for 2 hours to $798 for 8 hours. He includes a scaling quantity of 4x6" prints, plus a DVD disc of the color corrected photos he printed and digital negatives of the rest. People love his work. he's at http://www.wilsonphoto.20m.com/

I'm glad i dont live out there. If you stop doing Vegas and other areas that are maybe 2-3 hours away, could you charge more?

[form]

I live in the Henderson/Vegas area and there are no nearby cities I am willing or able to travel to for wedding work. Boulder City doesn't count because it's right next door and I've gone there a few times. I probably couldn't charge much more if I did such destination weddings either. It's most likely my own skill level that prevents me from being able to sell my work at a higher price.

[sapearl]

OK - so how does your work stack up to theirs? Do you give the same level of service, quality level, and range of coverage?

If the answer is yes, then you have nothing to lose by experimenting here. Offer one package that delivers a full day of solid coverage and price it at $1500. See what happens - you have everything to gain by trying this different approach. And certainly "act" the part when you pitch this package. Don't whine to potential clients about the low-ballers. Present all the service you'll deliver to them in this package. Display confidence, assurance, and a positive demeanor that demonstrates they have nothing to worry about since you'll take care of them for the entire day.

Btw - you commented earlier about hitting plateau in your photo abilities. Is the deficiency in the PP area or shooting aspect?

If the problem is shooting - then you need to go out and shoot more..... anything; this includes pro bono stuff, volunteer orgs, anything, just so it keeps you fresh and in the game, with a sharp edge. "Other" kinds of work will also give you a different prospective on wedding work. This is always beneficial. I do it all the time. What have YOU done lately in this area Joey?

If the problem is with PP or finishing aspects, then you need to spend more time practicing and just doing ANYTHING.

A few years back I took a couple of really cheap adult Ed photoshop evening courses at the local high school. At that time I didn't know squat about CSx. These beginning courses got me started. Then I started experimenting, and experimenting and experimenting.....

I actually looked for some expensive classes and seminars but couldn't find any that I could work into the schedule of my regular full time job. So I just bought some books and worked through them, read I lot hear, and asked lots of questions.

Big ticket seminars are great and I wouldn't criticize them... you can always take something away with you. But they are not the end-all be-all. You can always find stuff in a book, or out shooting in the street, or from a forum like POTN.


Must be nice having a hard time getting past 1600. I'm afraid I'd have a heart attack if someone handed that kind of money over to me for a wedding. My most expensive was $650 - although after that I decided to increase my rates. However, since I upped them I haven't booked anything either. Just the same, there are several local photographers in the 1-2k range who do rather bad work and that really bothers me - not that I can't get as much as they do, but that they charge so much for sub-par work.

[sapearl]

EXACTLY what do you view as a deficient in your skill level - is there something specific you have identified that holds you back?

...... I probably couldn't charge much more if I did such destination weddings either. It's most likely my own skill level that prevents me from being able to sell my work at a higher price.

[Fernando]

Maybe Austin is a different market but I can't remember seeing any wedding photographers anywhere near (and I mean ANYWHERE) as cheap as the low-priced options on this thread.

I'm not a photographer but did just drop $2500 on a photographer for our wedding.

-F

[Photosmiles]

Joey-

After looking at your website I am convinced your images are wonderful- The Aaron and Natalie wedding you just posted has some fabulous work. It is not your photographic images holding you back-;)

[form]

EXACTLY what do you view as a deficient in your skill level - is there something specific you have identified that holds you back?

I am only okay with composition, lighting and really getting people into the mood/posing them. I really need to improve in all three categories, but I'm not sure how to do that.

There is more to composition than the basic rules and I can't really figure out how to do the less tangible parts (related to purpose and additional depth/significance). With lighting I can do detail shots fairly well, and I know a few traditional styles of portrait lighting, but I am not able to understand when and why to do any specific kind of lighting and my technique with light positioning is not always good. Last, with posing I think my perception entirely misses a dimension that gives purpose and really carries the feeling or story of the occasion.

Back when I watched movies more often, I used to notice that there is a difference between okay movies and good/great ones: the better ones give more attention to extra details, subtleties and eccentricities, and have more of them. How do they know what to use for that purpose? I don't really know, but it makes a difference. I think it would also apply to photography: A subject alone with good lighting and posing is okay; with a prop may be better; with a pretty background better still; with a purpose, even better; and with an idea or emotion-provoking affect or mood that others can relate to and which is supported by all of the other pieces in the frame, ideal. But just how do you achieve it? I guess you have to understand what's harmonious and what isn't, and it seems like I don't get that part.

I have tried to describe the difference between a snapshot and a good photo, using wording as an example:
A snapshot is a picture of a barn in a field on an overcast day.
A good photo is a picture of a solitary, solemn barn in a vast, undulating field on a gloomy day with ominous clouds overhead, foreboding rain.

I know I can capture the snapshot, but how do I capture the good photo? It's so hard to isolate what makes it that way, but I think that the snapshot and good photo can both be achieved with the same subjects and elements. I believe a good photographic eye (and perhaps retouching) will catch the correct angle, framing and light necessary to evoke the feelings a good photo brings.

What holds me back from learning? I don't really have a grasp of those things I mentioned and so I can't create them. Some of those good shots may happen by accident when the pieces fit together right, but I can't recreate that feel because I don't understand it. The whole issue feels like something just under my conscious grasp, like it's right there but I can't quite reach it. It's like how I dream sometimes: I can remember whole scenes, but if I try to remember any fine details that are responsible for making the scene, they refuse to materialize.

Photosmiles: I appreciate compliments and try to do better all the time. That was a beautiful dress and a very fun bride, and there were times when environment and subject went together very well.

[sevillafox]

Form, here is a great read for you: http://mcpactions.com/blog/2009/10/12/how-should-i-price-my-photography-words-of-advice-from-jodie-otte/

[phr0ze]

Form, here is a great read for you: http://mcpactions.com/blog/2009/10/12/how-should-i-price-my-photography-words-of-advice-from-jodie-otte/

Wow great link... After reading that I need to tripple my prices.

[form]

I looked at the link; it's another of those gross/net summarizing pages that are everywhere. I understand them just fine, but profit margins are not so important to me right now as actually landing jobs, and the most important thing in my mind presently is skill improvement.

[airfrogusmc]

A perfect example of what I keep preaching and why the low ballers shouldn't be your competitions. You need to put yourself into a position where your client wouldn't even consider a low baller and as much as I sometimes disagree with CDI in wedding photography like it or not personality is a BIG factor. ;)

[airfrogusmc]

I looked at the link; it's another of those gross/net summarizing pages that are everywhere. I understand them just fine, but profit margins are not so important to me right now as actually landing jobs, and the most important thing in my mind presently is skill improvement.

You kept going on and on in another thread about how you don't have time so shooting weddings at $500 a pop is going to give you less time and energy than if you were charging $2000 a pop. Its easy to get stuck in a market and you seem to be stuck in the low end market which is not a good place to be. So like I said before you need to do something about it.

[form]

Okay, so what type of personality traits are concomitant with a mid or upper level photographer and differ from the budget photographer?

[picturecrazy]

Okay, so what type of personality traits are concomitant with a mid or upper level photographer and differ from the budget photographer?

Make it an experience rather than the purchase of a service for money.

People buy on emotion. You can make someone blow their budget if you stimulate them emotionally.

Your photography is solid. There is room for improvement, but hey, we're all in that boat. The reason some people can sell for more is that they make it more of an experience.

Create a site and hype it up like it's the greatest thing a bride can ever experience. Present your photos in a way that will make visitors cry or shiver. Make your visitors feel like YOU ARE THE MAN (whether you believe it or not) and if anyone getting married in vegas had half a brain, they would hire you.

Give your site some personality. Especially your "About Me" part. I don't get any kind of feel for your personality from it. It sounds like just about every other photographer's About Me section. Let people get a feel for the fun, relaxed, and cool person that you are. Make them WANT to hang out with you. Are you such a serious person? Your About Me makes you sound that way. And that isn't very fun sounding. I like to write how I talk, which is very far from proper english but it gives people more of an emotional experience.

People buy on EMOTION.
People buy on EMOTION.
People buy on EMOTION.
People buy on EMOTION.
People buy on EMOTION.
People buy on EMOTION.
People buy on EMOTION.
People buy on EMOTION.
People buy on EMOTION.
People buy on EMOTION.
People buy on EMOTION.
People buy on EMOTION.
People buy on EMOTION.
People buy on EMOTION.
People buy on EMOTION.

Make them FEEL like they HAVE to book you.
Make them FEEL like they'd be stupid not to book you.
Make them FEEL like you're the best photographer in Vegas.
Make them FEEL like you're a super fun guy to hang around.
Make them FEEL like your are worth a super high price.
Make them FEEL like you have deep skill and knowledge.
Make them FEEL like they can trust in your experience
Make them FEEL like they can have fun with you.

All I get from your site is:

-You are a photographer
-You offer wedding photography
-You take X amount of pictures
-Your prices start at $200

It's way too business-like and too formal. It might work if you were selling blenders, but not wedding photography. That's why people are viewing your packages as a PRODUCT PER DOLLAR, and that's why they're comparing you to other photographers that are selling PRODUCT PER DOLLAR. And guess what? If you are marketing that way, you'll ALWAYS lose to someone who offers a better PRODUCT PER DOLLAR ratio than you.

What you want to do is get them so jazzed up about you that they'll either:

A. stop looking at other sites because they're found THE ONE.

or

B. look at other sites after yours and say "gosh these are so boring, no wonder they're so cheap"

[form]

I can see very much how that makes sense, but in fact I really am very calm and level headed, not enthusiastic or cheery, and so it's not at all surprising that it comes across in my writing. I don't know how to write "happy exciting emotional" because it is so contrary to me. How do you do it?

[_aravena]

You can't just change your personality. Get a cheery friend to write for you. I would write it, but I don't know you well enough to say something about you and how you do your business. I could BS, but saying something about yourself helps.

Interviews help. You can't just change your personality. I can sell anything because I'm charming. I can't be modest as everyone knows this, it's why I get hired at retail jobs, and why people pick me. The love the experience at the meetings I give and shoots. 3 of the shots I did, never knew the people, I now continue to talk, hang out, and go out with them. For me, it was a forced personality trait being a military brat I had to make new friends every 2-3 years so I developed that adjustment trait. Conveying that emotion that you care about them and not about the money helps. If they call, convey that message. From our thread, I see more that you're complaining about not making money than not having shoots. I complain about not having shoots as I think they're fun and I love doing it! People get that and they've told me that...but that's me. My real problem is marketing. I'm only by word of mouth but I hope to change that soon.

[sapearl]

So you want to work yourself to death on slim profit margins - bad business plan. My tax guy and I talk about this all the time. 'Tis better to shoot five weddings at $2k ea (if you can get them, obviously) than 20 jobs at $500 ea.

As far as skill level goes, that's something that comes with time and a lot of practice. It does not spring forth over night. It takes a while to develop your style :D.

.....but profit margins are not so important to me right now as actually landing jobs, and the most important thing in my mind presently is skill improvement.

[_aravena]

I pick and take what I want. I'm not working to death. You're only working to death if you take that many job back to back (by week).

[Dorman]

This seems to be a common theme from you Joey, and it appears that you need to work on your attitude, confidence, and interpersonal skills. I mean no offense by my comment, but if you don't think you're worth the money, if you give up easily, and if you cannot create some enthusiasm and engage some clients in business, then you will lose work.

You can land work based on price (not the clientel you want to attract) or you can land work because you have differentiated yourself from the competition. How do you differntiate yourself? Branding, marketing/advertising, having a unique style, offering a unique product/service, by selling yourself better than your peers. The overall diffentiator is the complete experience that encompasses all of the above.

My full-time day job is not photography. I am a sales professional for the most expensive (by a long shot) manufacturer in our industry. We are constantly selling against lower priced competitors - yet we manage to sell our products/services at a premium. Our offerings are differentiated and I create the overall experience for the client. Am I enthusiastic and feeling 100% all the time? No. Do I always feel 100% confident in all situations I am facing? No. What I am doing is stepping it up a notch to create that experience that makes the customer forget my competition. People buy from people, not companies. People book photographers, not photographic services. I am trying to emphasize the importance of impressions and personality on you.

I think you would be well served with a business/sales seminar, along with continuing some photography seminars to address where you feel your shortcoming are.

Also, don't be surprised that bookings are currently down and people are evaluating on price - we are in a recession!

[sapearl]

Absolutely nothing wrong with being calm and level headed - these are actually solid, stabilizing factors that will only benefit you during the stresses of the average wedding day.

But then you say you are not enthusiastic or cheery? Man Joey, that's the kiss of death. You are what you think, and if this is how you come across to potential clients, in ANY way, then this could be the crux of your problem.

Now in all fairness, other cheerless and unenthusiastic clients may feel really comfortable with you, and be happy to hire your services. But seriously, the public doesn't want to buy from somebody who can't even muster enthusiasm or positive energy for his own work.

Dorman says it very well, so I'll just recap instead of trying to paraphrase: "I think you would be well served with a business/sales seminar, along with continuing some photography seminars to address where you feel your shortcoming are."

Until that time, I think you need a cheery front man (or woman) to sell your services Joey :rolleyes:.

I can see very much how that makes sense, but in fact I really am very calm and level headed, not enthusiastic or cheery, and so it's not at all surprising that it comes across in my writing. I don't know how to write "happy exciting emotional" because it is so contrary to me. How do you do it?

[airfrogusmc]

Okay, so what type of personality traits are concomitant with a mid or upper level photographer and differ from the budget photographer?

First you need to make sure that if your SERIOUS about making a living in the field that the low end is not you market unless you do VOLUME and that means probably having others that shoot for you too.

If you're going to just shoot commercial table top stuff then personal skills are surely not as important as they are when you are in direct contact with clients and potential clients and in higher end clients they can spot a lack of confidence a mile away because most are business owners or executives and have to deal with tough business everyday.

[form]

Okay, I'm sure that it has been mentioned in the past, but I'm not planning on making a living on wedding photography. I have another career planned and photography will just be a bonus that I can enjoy and make money doing at the same time. However, I would still like to become better at it, and I want to start catering to more middle-range clients now. I've had my stint in the budget realm and I know that I can't price-compete with $100 for 4 hours, so I'm not trying to beat them. I was annoyed at losing at least one good job to someone whose prices are cheaper than dirt only because of price.

I just have to figure out how I can sell myself better and put a more enthusiastic tone to my online persona. When I talk about my photos as I show clients during the few meetings I have, I do get a little emotionally enthused about the shots, and it comes naturally then. I have to try to translate that to my website.

[airfrogusmc]

Awwwritey I'm gonna give you a bit more advice because I've seen your work and I see potential. I remember was it year maybe a year and half ago you were defending low ballers and saying that you were one and people shouldn't be crying if a low baller is cutting into their business. How time have changed.

First you need to figure out what you are and what you want to be. You seem to complain about the clientele you know have but always give reason why you can't move out of that client base. Its not easy but with some work you could be in a good position for the future because these hard times that most wedding photographers are going through are not going to last though I doubt they will ever be like they once were.

But you are going to need to position yourself much differently for the future. First you've got to figure out who and what you are as a wedding photographer so you have less of a chance of being caught in this kind of situation again.

I had a chance to change directions almost 10 years ago now and I completely moved out of the wedding business and moved into what I thought would be a more stable area of photography that I really knew from inside. It was a HUGE risk but no pain no gain.

If you are going to stay where you're at then you need to understand that what you're going through is probably only going to get worse. If you want to move into a different market you need to figure out a vehicle that can move you.

I gave you some advice of exactly what I would do if I were you in your situation in another thread and I still would do it that way.

[form]

Yes back then I was the least common demoninator (though not by nearly as much as the latest group). Times have changed because others dropped their prices while I raised mine.

I've never complained about any of the clients I've had; I have just stated that the price shopping has hurt my business lately.

I don't really want to leave wedding photography.

[airfrogusmc]

Yes back then I was the least common demoninator (though not by nearly as much as the latest group). Times have changed because others dropped their prices while I raised mine.

I've never complained about any of the clients I've had; I have just stated that the price shopping has hurt my business lately.

I don't really want to leave wedding photography.

Then get smart about it. You have the talent. Don't be your own worse enemy.

[cdifoto]

So basically you're saying you want to make a lot more money without putting more effort into it?

[form]

I actually have put effort into it - a lot, in learning and experience. Am I wrong to think that I have reached a point where I deserve a little more than I used to get?

[harroz]

Everyone is right, but this pretty much sums it up. Print it and stick it on your office wall and read it daily Joey! Use it to focus and stay on track for your final outcome.



Make it an experience rather than the purchase of a service for money.

People buy on emotion. You can make someone blow their budget if you stimulate them emotionally.

Your photography is solid. There is room for improvement, but hey, we're all in that boat. The reason some people can sell for more is that they make it more of an experience.

Create a site and hype it up like it's the greatest thing a bride can ever experience. Present your photos in a way that will make visitors cry or shiver. Make your visitors feel like YOU ARE THE MAN (whether you believe it or not) and if anyone getting married in vegas had half a brain, they would hire you.

Give your site some personality. Especially your "About Me" part. I don't get any kind of feel for your personality from it. It sounds like just about every other photographer's About Me section. Let people get a feel for the fun, relaxed, and cool person that you are. Make them WANT to hang out with you. Are you such a serious person? Your About Me makes you sound that way. And that isn't very fun sounding. I like to write how I talk, which is very far from proper english but it gives people more of an emotional experience.

People buy on EMOTION.
People buy on EMOTION.
People buy on EMOTION.
People buy on EMOTION.
People buy on EMOTION.
People buy on EMOTION.
People buy on EMOTION.
People buy on EMOTION.
People buy on EMOTION.
People buy on EMOTION.
People buy on EMOTION.
People buy on EMOTION.
People buy on EMOTION.
People buy on EMOTION.
People buy on EMOTION.

Make them FEEL like they HAVE to book you.
Make them FEEL like they'd be stupid not to book you.
Make them FEEL like you're the best photographer in Vegas.
Make them FEEL like you're a super fun guy to hang around.
Make them FEEL like your are worth a super high price.
Make them FEEL like you have deep skill and knowledge.
Make them FEEL like they can trust in your experience
Make them FEEL like they can have fun with you.

All I get from your site is:

-You are a photographer
-You offer wedding photography
-You take X amount of pictures
-Your prices start at $200

It's way too business-like and too formal. It might work if you were selling blenders, but not wedding photography. That's why people are viewing your packages as a PRODUCT PER DOLLAR, and that's why they're comparing you to other photographers that are selling PRODUCT PER DOLLAR. And guess what? If you are marketing that way, you'll ALWAYS lose to someone who offers a better PRODUCT PER DOLLAR ratio than you.

What you want to do is get them so jazzed up about you that they'll either:

A. stop looking at other sites because they're found THE ONE.

or

B. look at other sites after yours and say "gosh these are so boring, no wonder they're so cheap"

[airfrogusmc]

I actually have put effort into it - a lot, in learning and experience. Am I wrong to think that I have reached a point where I deserve a little more than I used to get?

The problem in that world its hard to move out of the market you've established yourself in. All the people you might need to help you get into the high end world won't take you serious at those prices. In fact their commissions to recommend you would be more than that. its hard but certainly not impossible. Like I said before if the business of photography were easy everyone would be successful. The fact is, most fail.

First figure out what you want to be and then go after it with passion and everything you've got and even then it just might not be enough but its a good start. ;)

[sapearl]

We all feel that way Joey, and we all deal with it everyday in the working world - it's called life; get used to it.

I donate thousands in photographic labor each year to local non profit orgs and other worthy causes. Would I like to have have more financial recognition? You bet I would. But they can't afford me so it doesn't happen. Fortunately I have the regular FT job that allows me to "afford" the worthy groups. But they do appreciate my contributions, and therein lies much of the satisfaction and outlet for creativity.

I actually have put effort into it - a lot, in learning and experience. Am I wrong to think that I have reached a point where I deserve a little more than I used to get?

[Zansho]

Joey -

Stop browbeating yourself about your self-perceived lack of skill, and think for once, you're worth the big bucks. There are photographers out there making megabucks and they're barely taking images better than snapshot quality. It's all about your confidence, personality, and how you market yourself to your community. In my opinion, you're definitely worth more than the 700 buck maximum that you've been charging, in fact, I think you should be in the $1,400-1,700 STARTING range.

Instead of telling people they're getting budget photography, tell them when they're looking for you, that they're getting quality photography at a VERY affordable price, and market yourself with confidence. People pick up on poor confidence, and if it's not going to be in your personality and demeanor (I can pick it up here on the forums, and I've never met you), it won't be in your photographs.

Sell yourself high. You deserve it.

And what Sapearl said about charity work is absolutely true. I did some work for Texas Association for the Deaf and for USA Deaf Track and Field (charity, both) and they lead me to really lucrative paying commercial work within the deaf community. It's all about networking and knowing others, and making the right contacts, and then letting your photography skills AND your confidence sell YOU.

And I'm serious. You should be in the 1.4k-1.7k starting bracket.

[amfoto1]

Okay, I'm sure that it has been mentioned in the past, but I'm not planning on making a living on wedding photography. I have another career planned and photography will just be a bonus that I can enjoy and make money doing at the same time. However, I would still like to become better at it, and I want to start catering to more middle-range clients now. I've had my stint in the budget realm and I know that I can't price-compete with $100 for 4 hours, so I'm not trying to beat them. I was annoyed at losing at least one good job to someone whose prices are cheaper than dirt only because of price.

I just have to figure out how I can sell myself better and put a more enthusiastic tone to my online persona. When I talk about my photos as I show clients during the few meetings I have, I do get a little emotionally enthused about the shots, and it comes naturally then. I have to try to translate that to my website.


Oh geez...

Please, please, puh-leeeze FORGET YOUR WEBSITE for now!

Forget your "online persona"... whatever the heck that is (I'm visualizing "Lawnmower Man" here... and maybe some X-Files episodes. :rolleyes:).

Sorry, but you're looking for shortcuts that just don't exist.

What really matters happens face-to-face.

It's called selling.

Here "selling" isn't a dirty word, either. It might be if we were talking used cars, but we're not.

This is relationship selling. It's always a win/win for everyone. Your prospective clients need something, it's important to them, and you are among the best available to provide it to them. That's worth something to them... Which is a fair and honest payment to you. You aren't trying to take advantage of them in any way. You shouldn't be letting anyone take unfair advantage of you, either.

You have to go into meetings with your prospective clients exuding quiet confidence and calm self assurance, no matter what. You should make them comfortable and give them reasons to like you and feel good about hiring you. Most of the time this is just being yourself and sharing some of the confidence you've shown us about your abilities, putting the negative stuff and uncertainties way back hidden in some corner of your mind to deal with later when you are alone.

You should be having a conversation with your clients... 90% listening, 10% talking on your part. Ask questions. Lots of questions, even if you think you know the answers. Not simple "yes or no" questions either... Open ended questions that encourage them to talk. People love to talk about themselves, especially a highly anticipated upcoming event like their wedding! Find out what they really need and want. That's your first goal. Don't show them your portfolio of images until you've heard them out. Then, once you have a good idea what they need and want, simply start to draw them a picture how you will meet their needs, exceed their expectations and delight them with your services. While you are doing this you can present 10 or 12 of your best images, to reassure them that you have the skills to do the work. You'll also present them with your written agreement and explain how it serves to protect both them and you. Along the way you should be asking if they have any questions and addressing any that come up.

Body language is really important. Non-verbal communication is a much higher percentage of people's decision process than we realize. Yet this is something that's lost completely with websites and email, only slightly available to us over the phone. That's why it's so important to meet face-to-face and why it's important how you present yourself when you do.

If you are nervous, you'll make them nervous. If you are calm and relaxed, they will be too. Try this sometime. Start out by emulating their body language, then sit back, be relaxed and open. They will follow your lead 9 times out of 10. This isn't some mental sales trick, it's just getting them to open up so that you can better find out and meet their needs. Later, when you are presenting your portfolio you should be leaning forward, enthusiastic and confident of it's quality. After each part of your presentation, sit back and let them respond, even if it's a non-verbal response. Don't rush, that will just ruin all your efforts.

Do you use a "shot list" to plan weddings? Now might be a good time to present that, to find out in more detail what they want. It not only shows good planning and attention to detail on your part, once they are filling it out with you they are actually commiting to hire you.

You will have to deal with price, but by carefully gathering information in advance it will be easier to present. You should show them several options, and perhaps point out one that best meets the needs they've shared. If they throw up an objection about price, say that some other photographer quoted them a much lower price, what you should do is inquire if it's for the same level of service or if there are a lot of things they want done not included in that price.

You might not be able to get them to sign right then and there. Sometimes the best thing to do is to leave the paperwork for them to look over and encourage them to call with any questions. Other clients are more decisive and will be ready to sign right away, maybe before you even know it. Just try to not get so wrapped up in your presentation so that you miss that they are ready to go straight to closing the deal.

Right now you are acting uncertain, questioning your own skills and abilities, trying to compete with bottom feeders who will be going broke with their current business model, and acting a bit cool and maybe a little aloof, yet hoping an inanimate website can somehow "sell" people on using you. You find yourself just asking for and accepting the low paying gigs (at least the ones that someone else who is equally uncertain of their abilities doesn't lowball you on) because you feel you aren't "worth it" yet.

Who cares if others lowball each other and fight over the unprofitable jobs... You really don't want those jobs anyway! You want the profitable ones. You want to work with reasonable clients who value you and your services, not ones who simply want the cheapest they can get (and are by far the most likely to be a real pain in your neck before, during and after the event.)

You know the work of several much higher charging local photogs is not particularly good, not up to the standards you've set for yourself and regularly produce. Yet you are wearing out your camera equipment on unprofitable jobs, while others who don't do as good work are getting paid three times as much and more!

Hello! Does this make sense?

You will always be improving, growing, learning... You can't "wait until you are better". In fact, you already know you're better than most, it's pretty apparent. The fact that you recognize other local photogs' work as good or bad tells us that you know what's good... Others here have tried and tried to encourage you, looked at your work and told you it's great, and yet you just keep coming back with excuses why you won't or can't do what suggested.

Get over it. These are just excuses and, for some reason, a lack of self esteem. Deep down you know you can do it better than most. So get out there, enjoy working with your clients, have fun with them and do your very best to help make their special day even more memorable. It's really not about you anyway. So give your clients your best... Or get out of the business.

Once you do this....Commit to getting out there, giving it your best and enjoying yourself, rest assured you will know precisely how to reword your website. After all, it can't and never will sell people on using you... Only you can do that. Your website is merely an extension of you, and should only be one segment of your overall marketing effort... all of which revolves around you.

Your website should have one primary purpose... It needs to encourage people to contact you. Once they do that, your next goal should be to set up a meeting. During this initial phone or email conversation, you might need to ask some questions and do a little screening, to determine if they are good prospective clients or not. There might even be a few people you should stop and refer elsewhere. But work toward setting up a meeting. Offer only a range of prices for your services, if they ask, while listening to see if they gasp or not. Only once you are sitting down face-to-face with them can the relationship actually start. Only after learning about their needs should you be laying out in front of them several options, that you think might meet their needs. It still might be a little vague, at this stage. They may give you some objections that you have to deal with and address. But eventually, once all their concerns are answered, ask them to do so and they will commit by signing an agreement with you.

If all this sounds like sales training... well it is, actually. We are all selling all the time, one thing or another. It's the nature of business and even of personal relationships. And this "selling" can be as honorable and honest as you choose to make it.

Now, go get those better paying clients!

[picturecrazy]

Face to face is great... but one of the things he mentions is that many people getting married in vegas... well... aren't from vegas. So face to face is more of a luxury rather than a normal part of the sale. Vegas is a very unique wedding market.

[airfrogusmc]

Face to face is great... but one of the things he mentions is that many people getting married in vegas... well... aren't from vegas. So face to face is more of a luxury rather than a normal part of the sale. Vegas is a very unique wedding market.

Yep but there are high end consultants there (I know one) that book weddings from all of the world and recommend photographers. I'm sure he's not the only consultant.

[form]

I understand about body language and expression; one of my college courses has directed attention to verbal and nonverbal communication, and I was already conscious of that. When I meet couples, I am calm and open, and I let them do most of the talking with a few prompts from me. Once they've said everything they know to say, I will ask a few specific questions and get particular details about their preferences/unique things about their wedding. In the end, I ask if they have any other questions, and I give them a heads up that I will need a general itinerary of the wedding within a few weeks of the date. I present myself openly and smiling, relaxed and easy going. I don't stand over them or point myself away from them. I make plenty of eye contact. I back-channel often and seek clarification when I don't understand.

But, most people don't do interviews here. About 85% only talk over email and sometimes once over the phone. Most of my clients are from out of town, wanting the "Vegas Wedding Experience." Many of them want Strip Tours, which involves traveling from place to place along the Las Vegas Strip and stopping to shoot a few photos at each location. I spend a lot of time in shuttles, limos and occasionally rental cars. Some like in-suite ceremonies or receptions because it's easier/less expensive. Overall, it's very interesting.

[sevillafox]

Form....here's a thought....what if you made relationships with some of the casinos and shuttle places and offered an all inclusive package....YOU arrange the ceremony location, YOU arrange the shuttle, YOU take the pics? People might book you based on convenience....and you can charge more. ;)

[Photosmiles]

Joey-

Look at your images! To me you are looking at your images the way many teenage girls view their body. They are not as bad as you think! Yes they could use a bit of something here or there- but honestly many of them have "it".

Look at them from the view of couple.

Your images capture "it". They capture what the couple (if they stay married) will treasure on their 50th wedding anniversary.

You are capturing transitions and memories - NOT perfect lighting and composition. YES these are VERY important - but they are only tools. Sell your images - believe in them. You are giving these people a gift. And you and they both need to appreciate what cool thing that is. ;)

[sapearl]

OK - I'm blowing the whistle on you Joey.

I just looked at the shots in your other thread: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=763552

Why are you whining so much about the quality of your work? Several of these are not only quite good, but they have humor, moodiness and a special feel to them that really has the potential to set your work apart from the others in your area. I encourage the folks here to check it out. - Stu

[TheHoff]

Cue excuses as to why those photos aren't good enough or only happen once in a blue moon.

As we've seen in enough of Joey's threads, they're full of whinging and not a lick of self-appreciation. I agree with Stu, those are quality shots. Enough pity parties -- improve your marketing or move to a better city.

[_aravena]

Marketing is key. I started marketing on Craig's list...wow! I now possibly have a huge client list from one client. Unfortunately it's all in Orlando, north of Universal, which is not close but heck, I don't care if I get enough jobs. :lol:

Put something in Orlando, Tampa, and Lakeland. Oddly enough I've had 3 jobs from Orlando.

[airfrogusmc]

Cue excuses as to why those photos aren't good enough or only happen once in a blue moon.

As we've seen in enough of Joey's threads, they're full of whinging and not a lick of self-appreciation. I agree with Stu, those are quality shots. Enough pity parties -- improve your marketing or move to a better city.

If you DON"T BELIEVE in yourself you will NEVER be able to get anyone else to believe in you. Yeah enough whining Joey and either dump or get off the pot. Business is hard and most FAIL. If it were easy every business would be successful. If you spent as much time figuring out how to make it work as you do starting pity threads you would be well on your way.

[PMCphotography]

I think you're best by finding your market niche, and exploiting it. You can't book every wedding out there. Some brides are looking for extravagant, $5 grand wedding photographers, and others want low key, unobtrusive photographers.

[airfrogusmc]

I think you're best by finding your market niche, and exploiting it. You can't book every wedding out there. Some brides are looking for extravagant, $5 grand wedding photographers, and others want low key, unobtrusive photographers.

Yep I said it earlier first thing is he has to figure out what he wants to be. And from his posts it doesn't seem the low ball route is working to well.

[PMCphotography]

Yep I said it earlier first thing is he has to figure out what he wants to be. And from his posts it doesn't seem the low ball route is working to well.

Ah sorry, I didn't see that earler. I don't read every post in a long thread, usually.

It's hard trying to be the lowball guy- there's always a cheaper guy out there with a brand new slr who's happy just to do it for peanuts.

You really need to figure out your "vision"- who you are, what you are going to offer, and how you are going to get there. It's hard to sell yourself to clients when you don't even know who you are yourself.

[airfrogusmc]

Ah sorry, I didn't see that earler. I don't read every post in a long thread, usually.

It's hard trying to be the lowball guy- there's always a cheaper guy out there with a brand new slr who's happy just to do it for peanuts.

You really need to figure out your "vision"- who you are, what you are going to offer, and how you are going to get there. It's hard to sell yourself to clients when you don't even know who you are yourself.

EXACTLY!!!

[Fernando]

I can see very much how that makes sense, but in fact I really am very calm and level headed, not enthusiastic or cheery, and so it's not at all surprising that it comes across in my writing. I don't know how to write "happy exciting emotional" because it is so contrary to me. How do you do it?

It was exactly these personality traits which landed our photographer our wedding. My fiancee fell in love with the photographers and the relationship they were selling.

I had veto power when looking at their work but the photography was quite good and the emotional connections closed the deal.

Sometimes you find people whose personalities do not make them a good fit for their jobs of choice. An amazing photographer without the people-connection skills will have hard time getting people to notice that their work is amazing. Conversely a good salesman can get people to buy into work that is adequate.

-F

[Fernando]

I understand about body language and expression; one of my college courses has directed attention to verbal and nonverbal communication, and I was already conscious of that. When I meet couples, I am calm and open, and I let them do most of the talking with a few prompts from me. Once they've said everything they know to say, I will ask a few specific questions and get particular details about their preferences/unique things about their wedding. In the end, I ask if they have any other questions, and I give them a heads up that I will need a general itinerary of the wedding within a few weeks of the date. I present myself openly and smiling, relaxed and easy going. I don't stand over them or point myself away from them. I make plenty of eye contact. I back-channel often and seek clarification when I don't understand.

But, most people don't do interviews here. About 85% only talk over email and sometimes once over the phone. Most of my clients are from out of town, wanting the "Vegas Wedding Experience." Many of them want Strip Tours, which involves traveling from place to place along the Las Vegas Strip and stopping to shoot a few photos at each location. I spend a lot of time in shuttles, limos and occasionally rental cars. Some like in-suite ceremonies or receptions because it's easier/less expensive. Overall, it's very interesting.

I'm seeing something here.

Where did you ask them anything about THEM. That conversation is the FIRST one.

A cheesy line my VP uses. "Nobody will care what you know until they know that you care."

The LAST thing we did with our photographer; after the contract was already signed; was the logistics.

-F

[form]

Most of the time I let the couple guide the conversation topics at first; it gives me an impression of their personalities. I honestly do flow with them, really I do. I book about 85-90% of the clients I sit down with, and about 5% of those I don't book are jobs I found I don't want over the course of the interview.

[sapearl]

You missed the point here Joey - as Austin pointed out it doesn't look like you demonstrate overt interest in the client. You just let the client flow in their own direction. That's fine, but do you really actively show interest in the potential customer.... do you ask them questions about themselves, their likes, dislikes, that sort of thing. You seem quite passive in your approach.

Most of the time I let the couple guide the conversation topics at first; it gives me an impression of their personalities. I honestly do flow with them, really I do. I book about 85-90% of the clients I sit down with, and about 5% of those I don't book are jobs I found I don't want over the course of the interview.

[Fernando]

Most of the time I let the couple guide the conversation topics at first; it gives me an impression of their personalities. I honestly do flow with them, really I do. I book about 85-90% of the clients I sit down with, and about 5% of those I don't book are jobs I found I don't want over the course of the interview.

Honesty warning...


Ok, if you interact with the clients the way you responded to my last post that's your problem. You completely missed the point.

You are driving the conversation...to THEM. I'm talking "What do you do for a living?"/"How did you meet?" type stuff.

If you stick to simply what needs to happen in the shoot the relational and emotional connection will be missed and you are just another vendor they are trying to get for the lowest price possible.

If you connect and make them feel important and special then you drive everything else and become a partner in the wedding, and paid accordingly.

-F

[sapearl]

Again - Austin hits the nail on the head.The key to any interaction is to find that "hook" into the potential client.

What are their interests, their likes and dislikes? What things might you both have incommon that they can relate to? Common experiences and feelings make it much easier for folks to identify with you. This leads to a greater comfort level. The more you chat, the more this is enhanced. Eventually it becomes the most natural thing in their minds to want to spend their entire wedding day with you. They can't conceive of anything else, or of even considering another photographer. They want YOU.

Then you can talk about particulars like pricing, services, packages, that sort of thing.

Honesty warning...


Ok, if you interact with the clients the way you responded to my last post that's your problem. You completely missed the point.

You are driving the conversation...to THEM. I'm talking "What do you do for a living?"/"How did you meet?" type stuff.

If you stick to simply what needs to happen in the shoot the relational and emotional connection will be missed and you are just another vendor they are trying to get for the lowest price possible.

If you connect and make them feel important and special then you drive everything else and become a partner in the wedding, and paid accordingly.

-F

[sevillafox]

FORM.....

A really easy way to figure out how to interact with potential clients is to use an online questionnaire. I do this with my senior clients to figure out what they are looking for an a little bit more about their personality. It helps me to break the ice with them and connect with them.

You can make this part of your online contact form and it'll give you a nice edge when you have that phone convo or with your other communication. You can even make their price point a part of this form and the you know what they are looking to spend and can tell them what you have to offer at that price.

[neilwood32]

Not sure if this will be paid any heed to (like a lot of these threads seem to be) but a bit of advice that i heard years ago that still holds true:

Make them feel like they are the only people that matter. Treat your potential clients like you are on a date and push your good points.

Analogy - you are on that date. Do you:
a) Sit there without any confidence and hope things go ok?
b) Start a conversation and hope it goes somewhere?
c) Ask them about their interests, job, favourite colour, food, Mom and Pop etc? And then respond with anecdotes about these topics?

My guess from your attitude on here would be either A or B. Will those have the most success? Not a snowballs chance in hell. C will show your personality a lot more.

When I employed a photographer (a very busy one as it happened), he spent all the time we needed asking about us, interests, venue, people that were coming etc.

It actually felt like we were talking to a friend by the end of it and i think it showed in the end results.

[caught14]

I heard a quote recently that went something like this:

"Your systems are perfectly aligned to give you the results you are getting"

If you aren't happy with the results you are getting (which is obvious) then you need to realign your systems. Change something. You've gotten more than enough good advice in this one thread. Now you need to put hands and feet (action) to these suggestions.

A lot of people know the difference between a bad photo and a good one. Fewer people know the difference between a good one and a great one. Your skill in photography is not holding you back -- you don't need to be the best to sell higher than you are. The first wedding we ever booked was $3k. We didn't even have a wedding portfolio yet, just some free engagement sessions.

What sold the bride? She liked our pictures enough to schedule a consultation, but she booked us because she liked our personalities more than anything.

We were very fortunate (lucky) as this was the right bride at the right time, but it illustrates the fact that she booked us based on emotion and the fact that we sold ourselves and our enthusiasm for her big day.

Your website is just a medium. You are the message. You need to sell yourself, not your photography. You will not transform yourself overnight, it will be a process -- One that you need to commit to. So enough talking, now do it! Good luck!

[Fenster]

You live in Las Vegas, home of the $50 wedding, and you're complaining that people don't want to pay out for their wedding snaps? I live here too and I know better than to complain about it. If you want to earn more, try to advertise in southern California. If you're up for the commute there's Los Angeles, San Diego and the whole Inland Empire...

[JayCee Images]

You live in Las Vegas, home of the $50 wedding, and you're complaining that people don't want to pay out for their wedding snaps? I live here too and I know better than to complain about it. If you want to earn more, try to advertise in southern California. If you're up for the commute there's Los Angeles, San Diego and the whole Inland Empire...

Vegas might be the home of the $50 wedding but i guarantee you, its the number one "wedding destination" in this country and not everyone goes through the drive through...

Its just as bad here(So Cal) and probably much worse. I advertise in the greater LA area(Orange County, LA, Inland Empire) and the amount of "cheap" but good photographers out here is astounding. Im constantly being badgered about my pricing and get undercut all the time but 99% of the time, those are clients i would rather not have dealt with anyway...its part of the business and like i said before, as technology advances in the future, it will only get worse.

[Fenster]

Vegas might be the home of the $50 wedding but i guarantee you, its the number one "wedding destination" in this country and not everyone goes through the drive through...

Its just as bad here(So Cal) and probably much worse. I advertise in the greater LA area(Orange County, LA, Inland Empire) and the amount of "cheap" but good photographers out here is astounding. Im constantly being badgered about my pricing and get undercut all the time but 99% of the time, those are clients i would rather not have dealt with anyway...its part of the business and like i said before, as technology advances in the future, it will only get worse.

Really? I've had some good luck around Big Bear and Arrowhead. Rich folks, I suppose.

[mikeassk]

I started by being a budget photographer because I was just starting out. I'm not intentionally trying to appeal to budget clients anymore. I used to focus my advertisements on affordability, but now virtually every word that suggests "inexpensive" has been removed from my ads and website in an attempt to avoid being seen as a budget option.

Yes this is becoming like the last thread and I really just wanted to vent. Not everyone will go the cheaper route and I know that. My real interest is still in improving skill and possibly developing some kind of niche style.

Check out this video

http://www.asmp.org/strictlybusiness/2009/04/if-you-sell-yourself-cheap-you-will-never-get-out-of-that-hole-barbara-bordnick/comment-page-1/#comment-1035

[amfoto1]

If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you always got.

[sevillafox]

If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you always got.

Nice synopsis dude!

[focus.pocus]

sorry but supply and demand... drop your prices and compete... lowballing works both ways... why do you charge what you charge? Is it set in stone?

[airfrogusmc]

sorry but supply and demand... drop your prices and compete... lowballing works both ways... why do you charge what you charge? Is it set in stone?

Unfortunately the low ball thing is what got him into this mess. ;)

[form]

It wasn't my own lowballing that got me into the situation I'm in as far as the $100/4 hours competition. But there is no way that I can compete with that offer. I can't do it and I won't try. I wouldn't make any money for my time and effort, and I'd be exhausted at the end of the day for almost nothing.

[sapearl]

What Allen meant is that when you entered the fray, you were "lowballing" the established guys much in the same way that you are now being undercut in return by the new guys entering the trade. You were the one who decided to enter at the bottom of the market, and now the shoe is on the other foot.

I don't blame you for not wanting to compete on those terms - I wouldn't either. That's why in this and your other threads all of us have been advising you to shift your market. Your work is quite good, we've all seen it and agree on it's quality level. Your technique and ability are not holding you back. You just have to change your market approach. And we've all advised you at great length on how to do that. ;) - Stu

It wasn't my own lowballing that got me into the situation I'm in as far as the $100/4 hours competition. But there is no way that I can compete with that offer. I can't do it and I won't try. I wouldn't make any money for my time and effort, and I'd be exhausted at the end of the day for almost nothing.

[form]

I was lowballing, but only by about 15-25%, not 75-85%. I would think that I was being much more competitive than this latest run of people. You know, a part of me really hopes that rock-bottom photographer screws up their photos - but I suspect that as long as he delivers the finished product in a professional manner, the couples will like them no matter what they look like. Still, if the ultra-inexpensive photographer does a bad job, then it will encourage people to reconsider when choosing the lowest common denominator. That's why I want the brides to be disappointed.

A few wedding reviews on his business say that the clients won't be disappointed. There's no accounting for taste or standards these days.

[sapearl]

15%? 25%? That makes no difference to the higher priced photographer who feels he lost business to you. That's a 100% loss to him.... same as what you are now experiencing.

And as far as the finished product goes? If the "perception" on the part of the client is that they rec'd excellent value for what they paid, then they will always be happy. This why all of us have been saying you need to change your approach if you want to escape this rut.

I was lowballing, but only by about 15-25%, not 75-85%. I would think that I was being much more competitive than this latest run of people. You know, a part of me really hopes that rock-bottom photographer screws up their photos - but I suspect that as long as he delivers the finished product in a professional manner, the couples will like them no matter what they look like. .......

[form]

15%? 25%? That makes no difference to the higher priced photographer who feels he lost business to you. That's a 100% loss to him.... same as what you are now experiencing.

And as far as the finished product goes? If the "perception" on the part of the client is that they rec'd excellent value for what they paid, then they will always be happy. This why all of us have been saying you need to change your approach if you want to escape this rut.

But see, I didn't take away so much business because my price/familiarity ratio was far different from the other person. These factors influence each other: A lower price draws more appeal, and a greater familiarity draws more appeal.

For example, I was not very well known compared to the popular photographers (low rating for familiarity) but my price was about 20% less (somewhat higher rating for price). However, this other photographer is following a ratio of being about as well known as I was (low rating for familiarity) while having an extremely low price (much higher rating for price). The latter produces a bigger increase in his client-drawing factor than my ratio did.

As has been discussed before, if price wasn't an issue, then I would probably not lose business to him. There's a mid-upper range photographer who also has high popularity, and my work was once mistaken for hers...but I don't have nearly the marketing she does, and I don't have a bubbling personality like her.

[sapearl]

But how can you possibly know that Joey?

This is what you feel. Without hard, industry marketting statistics for your area, you are just speculating. Unless they have opened their books to you, how could you possibly know what the other guys are missing or getting?

I do agree with you though about the bubbling personality. That aspect of your approach has to be worked on.

But see, I didn't take away so much business because my price/familiarity ratio was far different from the other person. These factors influence each other: A lower price draws more appeal, and a greater familiarity draws more appeal.

For example, I was not very well known compared to the popular photographers (low rating for familiarity) but my price was about 20% less (somewhat higher rating for price). However, this other photographer is following a ratio of being about as well known as I was (low rating for familiarity) while having an extremely low price (much higher rating for price). The latter produces a bigger increase in his client-drawing factor than my ratio did.

As has been discussed before, if price wasn't an issue, then I would probably not lose business to him. There's a mid-upper range photographer who also has high popularity, and my work was once mistaken for hers...but I don't have nearly the marketing she does, and I don't have a bubbling personality like her.

[sevillafox]

Joey....you really need to work on this paragraph on your website

I'm always trying to improve my creative eye and work on composition and lighting. I enjoy photojournalism, details shots, and anything that lets me experiment with new ideas. I also do plenty of formals and posed shots, and if the bride or groom provides me with examples of shots they prefer, it helps me understand what type of photos they like best.

Stating that you are trying to improve is a bit of a confidence wrecker on the part of the bride. You want them to think that you think you are great! Who cares if you do or not. They want a photographer who believes they are good! Fake it if you don't believe it.

And, say something like "I'm always open to new ideas. If you have a picture you really like, please share it with me and we can make sure and incorporate that style or pose into your wedding coverage"

[Zansho]

Good lord.

I'm going to be as blunt as possible, and forgive me if I come off as an a-hole.

Form, stop making excuses. That's what I'm seeing in the entirety of this thread. "But this, but that, but see, woe is me.." You need to take ownership of where you want your business to go. Would you want to work LESS for MORE money, or work MORE for LESS money? I think most people would pick number one. We wedding photographers here on the forum have already said and agreed your work is worth way more than you're charging now, and wedding photographers look at other photographer's work in a very critical way.

You need to work on your confidence in your abilities and your product, and understand that you're entitled to a good price. Take ownership of your business. If people are hiring you for your price (and not your work) in my opinion, they're going about it the wrong way, and they're not really clients you want anyway.

When I book my clients, price is the LAST thing I discuss. I establish what they're looking for, they establish that they like my work and WANT to hire me, and everybody feels good about the product, THEN I talk price on my terms, and most of the time they're perfectly agreeable.

Again, stop making excuses, and start putting your business on a path where you can make good money from it.

[_aravena]

To add to the bluntness, I've never seen a guy whine so much like a little kid that just got robbed from Trick-or-Treating. Grow up, hit puberty, and do what you love, which apparently isn't photography. It's not your planned career so don't worry about it. It's one thing if you too the criticism here and and replied with how you may improve yourself but you continuously come up with new excuses. My word, people like you, shouldn't be in the business because you're taking it away from those that actually love photography and want to be there at weddings capturing moments for the B&G as it's their one big day! The people that enjoy and interact with couples.

There, I said it. It's the same thing. Seriously...

[photoguy6405]

It's depressing that I should lose out to another photographer on the sole basis of price.
It's been that way since the beginning of time. In every industry. Do you think people drive Kias over BMWs because they want to? No, it's all they can afford or are willing to pay.

That being said, BMWs do still sell, and sell well. You just gotta know and accept that you're not going to get all of the market.

[Fernando]

It's been that way since the beginning of time. In every industry. Do you think people drive Kias over BMWs because they want to? No, it's all they can afford or are willing to pay.

That being said, BMWs do still sell, and sell well. You just gotta know and accept that you're not going to get all of the market.

And they sell because BMW makes you want to be that driver. The driver of the Ultimate Driving Machine. They hit you where it counts. Squarely in the heart, not head.

I am not a photographer but a major part of what I do is sales and sales management. If any of my team had this many excuses and was this negative they would be looking for a job somewhere else...'cuz sales isn't their thing.

I'm done posting. I feel like we're wasting advice, time, and keystrokes.

-Fernando

[Zansho]

Kias are not bad cars, actually. A friend of mine has had his Kia Spectra (2004) for over 180k miles and the only problem he's had was the water pump. He took care of it, and it took care of him, and in all honesty, I could see him hitting 220k-240k in that car.

But yeah, Fernando's absolutely right. If you hit and grasp people by their hearts instead of their head, you'll get the sale pretty much guaranteed because that's how they open their wallets.

Market yourself in such a way, Form - that you hit your brides hearts, and not their minds. Confidence will go a long way in helping you get there.

[gravy graffix]

If all weddings are fetching 500 and below... i wouldn't even bother with it... really.
Looks to like you have a fork in the road, one is up a Biggggg long hill ( trying to get out of the craigs list rejects crowd ) the other is just forget it as all the stress and headache is not worth the 400 bux or $2.25 an hour... On the good note there is a rest stop on the way, where you can put up pricing of what you want and just chill and let them some to you.

IMO i really liked your images on your site and think people would be nuts to hire someone less than you. Dont quit your day job yet, I did this summer and Believe me I get stressed out big time when I dont have a booking of some sort for a while...

oh and some one suggested a BLOG "comment" contest over on FM.... im doing that as of yesterday... winner get a 16x20 wrap, and WOW!!!!!!!!! im FLOODED with comments... like over 70 i think in one day. the side benefit from getting your site out there is.... How amazing it makes me feel to hear all of this stuff... Im my own worst critique and this really help me with that confidence.

[Svetlana]

Thought many of you will enjoy this article on pricing:

http://mcpactions.com/blog/2009/10/12/how-should-i-price-my-photography-words-of-advice-from-jodie-otte/

[sapearl]

Joey - the hand writing is on the wall .....get the message yet?

Tim said it best in your last thread: "I think everything's been said in this thread, it's just going round in circles now. I think it's time to drop it and let the thread die a natural death." And then you made the only sensible response: "Yes probably best for me too; maybe a moderator can lock it."

I think you should repeat the request. And just an observation - I think folks here are going to be FAR less patient and helpful to you if you persist in whining against good, constructive common sense.

Folks have invested a fair amount of time trying to help and improve your situation. All you do is argue and carry on like an immature kid. You're very talented and work hard at your photography, but you have a lot of growing up to do. Until you do that, you'll just continue to make yourself miserable. I wish you well in that endeavor.

[photoguy6405]

Sometimes too, photos just aren't that big a deal for some people. Shocking, I know, but true.

Another analogy: I'll buy the best photo equipment that I can afford. That's important to me. Other areas of my life I just don't care that much and price will be a primary factor. Clothes, for example. I'm just not a clothes hound, and Nordstroms and Macy's can market to me all they want... I'm still buying my shirts off the rack at Kohl's.

[sevillafox]

Thought many of you will enjoy this article on pricing:

http://mcpactions.com/blog/2009/10/12/how-should-i-price-my-photography-words-of-advice-from-jodie-otte/



that was posted a few pages back. ;)

[sapearl]

Makes perfect sense - and I agree with you completely.

Camera gear, printer paper and ink, and nice vacations for the me, the wife and kids. But I'm such a cheap SOB when it comes to things like cable, Dish or U-Verse, that I still use the antenna on my roof. Gives me beautiful razor sharp HD reception too..... all for FREE!

Sometimes too, photos just aren't that big a deal for some people. Shocking, I know, but true.

Another analogy: I'll buy the best photo equipment that I can afford. That's important to me. Other areas of my life I just don't care that much and price will be a primary factor. Clothes, for example. I'm just not a clothes hound, and Nordstroms and Macy's can market to me all they want... I'm still buying my shirts off the rack at Kohl's.

[kja]

OMG *another* thread with you whining about things but not taking even one teensy step to doing something real about it?? And AFTER you asked that the last one be closed?

I'm a little shocked to see some of the same members here AGAIN trying to help you while AGAIN you ignore them page after page.

The hard cold truth is that you have to get away from the computer and get out there and start doing something to help yourself. No more excuses or whining. Just do it - trite, but true.

[sapearl]

Ah - the voice of reason. Good to see you again Kristin.:D Ditto on everything.