After market LP-e6 battery???

[Tanglefoot47]

Just bought the 7D love it but would love to get a battery for it but I about choked when I saw the price of the Canon battery. I found a place that has a great price on a after market. But do I dare risk buying one? I can save about $50 but there is a couple things I worry about, how safe are they and I what is the battery pulled an iPod battery and gets hot enough to damage the inside of the camera my guess there goes the warranty

[overclock]

Funny how people will plunk down a chunk of change on something then cheap out on something for that something.

With all the problems with Lithium ion batteries I'd just go with the Canon. You'll have the power level reading and the confidence that it won't blow up. I've never heard of a camera blowing up because of a cheap battery before but I'd hate to be the first. Just isn't worth it.

Also, non-Canon batteries require their own charger for the LP-E6 so you'd have to put up with two different chargers.

[bohdank]

Not really. The after market chargers will charge the Canon LP-E6 so you just need the afternarket one.

Haven't tried charging a Canon battery with one yet but will be doing so, in the not too distant future. Ya, I like to live dangerously ;-)

[watt100]

Just bought the 7D love it but would love to get a battery for it but I about choked when I saw the price of the Canon battery. I found a place that has a great price on a after market. But do I dare risk buying one? I can save about $50 but there is a couple things I worry about, how safe are they and I what is the battery pulled an iPod battery and gets hot enough to damage the inside of the camera my guess there goes the warranty

the batteries from www.dealextreme.com and www.bestbatt.com for the 450D and Tl1 are good

[pwm2]

Funny how people will plunk down a chunk of change on something then cheap out on something for that something.

With all the problems with Lithium ion batteries I'd just go with the Canon. You'll have the power level reading and the confidence that it won't blow up. I've never heard of a camera blowing up because of a cheap battery before but I'd hate to be the first. Just isn't worth it.

Also, non-Canon batteries require their own charger for the LP-E6 so you'd have to put up with two different chargers.
The large part of Li-Ion batteries going up in smoke does that during charging. A big problem when you charge your laptop in your laptop. Probably a big reason why Canon prefers external chargers. Another of course that a wet camera connected to mains could be a bad idea ;)

[TeamSpeed]

Funny how people will plunk down a chunk of change on something then cheap out on something for that something.

With all the problems with Lithium ion batteries I'd just go with the Canon. You'll have the power level reading and the confidence that it won't blow up. I've never heard of a camera blowing up because of a cheap battery before but I'd hate to be the first. Just isn't worth it.

Also, non-Canon batteries require their own charger for the LP-E6 so you'd have to put up with two different chargers.

Same ol' argument all the time. Canon does not make the cells inside that nicely embossed plastic case, it is a 3rd party. There are great aftermarket batteries for most of the batteries found in the Canon line. The money I have saved buying aftermarket batteries vs Canon labeled batteries over the years has contributed alot toward the 7D.

The only issue is whether the battery you buy has been decoded to fit the LPE6 charger, there are a few out there, but they are only marginally cheaper than the Canon one. The rest of the batteries you can use (charge in a different charger), but then you won't get any indication of when the battery is about out, it will just shut down.

[FatCat]

On a whim I bought a $10 Third-party LP-E5 battery to round up an order. I intended to use it as an emergency spare but I've being using it for two months now and no problem... I must have recharged it about 3 or 4 times now... I guess they are a good deal. ^_^

[Tanglefoot47]

Well I ended up getting a Canon I found a brand new one for $52

[RiaGurl]

where tangle?

[sneakerpimp]

Well I ended up getting a Canon I found a brand new one for $52

you did the right thing and saved yourself worry about whether or not a third party cell will blow up in your camera. i got my genuine Canon battery at B&H have done the same for my other cameras over the years.

[TeamSpeed]

you did the right thing and saved yourself worry about whether or not a third party cell will blow up in your camera. i got my genuine Canon battery at B&H have done the same for my other cameras over the years.

Why do people constantly talk about this? 3rd party batteries from reputable sources are fine. It's like there are just tons of stories of 3rd party batteries that blow up and leak everywhere, and factory ones never do? Have you ever pulled the case apart and look inside? I have, guess what, the insides have nothing Canon in them, they are 3rd party cells. That tremendous markup simply pays for the Canon embossed emblem, wooo hoooo!

I figure I have saved about $735.21 by purchasing aftermarket batteries then selling the OE canon batteries to those that simply must have the Canon writing on them.

[RiaGurl]

the only issue i would have is the chip. if there was a chip on aftermarket batteries for the price that they are now, i would snatch them up, as i have non canon brand for my xxD series cameras.

[TeamSpeed]

the only issue i would have is the chip. if there was a chip on aftermarket batteries for the price that they are now, i would snatch them up, as i have non canon brand for my xxD series cameras.

There are a couple, if they say decoded on a website, I have been sending emails. Now the price has to be at least 50% of the factory for me to really consider the 3rd party, so I do have some rules, but so far that limit has always been beat. If I can get a OE for $60, then the 3rd party has to be $30 or less.

[pwm2]

There are a couple, if they say decoded on a website, I have been sending emails. Now the price has to be at least 50% of the factory for me to really consider the 3rd party, so I do have some rules, but so far that limit has always been beat. If I can get a OE for $60, then the 3rd party has to be $30 or less.
Are the battery clones with a chip having a unique serial number, or are they perfect clones - all giving the same ID?

The chip is intended to both measure the energy level (current in, current out and most probably self-discharge) and to identify the battery so the camera can keep track of the power state of multiple batteries.

[TeamSpeed]

Are the battery clones with a chip having a unique serial number, or are they perfect clones - all giving the same ID?

The chip is intended to both measure the energy level (current in, current out and most probably self-discharge) and to identify the battery so the camera can keep track of the power state of multiple batteries.

Don't know, but I don't care about tracking of many batteries, with the life of the LP-E6 and my situation, I just want one extra backup. Others may. I am sure they would just put a serial counter on the chip as they produce them, it is pretty easy. The odds that you get a 3rd party serial number that jives with a Canon one would be pretty remote.

[tvphotog]

Amazon has the LP-e6 for $60, and onsale.com has it for $64. I got two at onsale.com and they're genuine Canon batteries.

[pwm2]

Don't know, but I don't care about tracking of many batteries, with the life of the LP-E6 and my situation, I just want one extra backup. Others may. I am sure they would just put a serial counter on the chip as they produce them, it is pretty easy. The odds that you get a 3rd party serial number that jives with a Canon one would be pretty remote.
In a number of other situations, where companies have knocked out copies of equipment with serial chips in them, every single copy have had the same serial number as the specific item they cloned.

You can even find network cards where every single card has the same MAC address - a critical property to be able to address a single computer in a network.

Everything is just a question of how well they have managed to reverse-engineer the original design.

[RDKirk]

The chip is intended to both measure the energy level (current in, current out and most probably self-discharge) and to identify the battery so the camera can keep track of the power state of multiple batteries.

Yes. The camera has a mini-analyzer that tracks and compares for each registered battery the rate of discharge from shot to shot and from charge to charge. That way it can predict and warn when a battery has reached the end of its useful life. To do this, it obviously has to recognize each individual battery.

[pwm2]

Yes. The camera has a mini-analyzer that tracks and compares for each registered battery the rate of discharge from shot to shot and from charge to charge. That way it can predict and warn when a battery has reached the end of its useful life. To do this, it obviously has to recognize each individual battery.
What i meant with self-discharge is that it probably keeps track of how long time it was since last charged/used, so that it can estimate how much energy loss there have been for storing it a week in the bag. Such a function is common for battery supervisor chips.

[jetcode]

The cheap battery distributors will tell you to use their charger and there is a reason for that. I highly recommend spending the money and enjoy the security of knowing the battery is not going to explode if you accidently plug it into the canon charger and battery and camera are from the same design house meaning 100% compatible.

[jetcode]

Yes. The camera has a mini-analyzer that tracks and compares for each registered battery the rate of discharge from shot to shot and from charge to charge. That way it can predict and warn when a battery has reached the end of its useful life. To do this, it obviously has to recognize each individual battery.

The battery is attached to an A/D converter which reports the voltage to the camera's micro which distributes the information as a bar graph and the warning system. There is no tracking of battery as there is with media as far as I know.

[pwm2]

The battery is attached to an A/D converter which reports the voltage to the camera's micro which distributes the information as a bar graph and the warning system. There is no tracking of battery as there is with media as far as I know.
Wrong. There is a smart chip in the battery that is accumulating energy going into the battery when you charge it, energy going out of the battery when you use the camera, and (most probably) energy lost from the battery with time from self-discharge.

This smart chip, together with the processor and memory in the camera (5Dmk2 or 7D) will keep track of each individual battery you have. How many shutter actuations you have done with the battery since last charge. The current energy level in the battery (note that you can't measure voltage to get the charging state, since the voltage doesn't drop until the battery is depleted). How much work the charger had to fill the battery. How many actuations it takes to empty the battery.

The camera uses this information to show you the state of all batteries in the camera or battery grip and the batteries in your bag. And the statistics is used to inform you when a battery is going bad and has to be replaced.

[RDKirk]

The camera uses this information to show you the state of all batteries in the camera or battery grip and the batteries in your bag. And the statistics is used to inform you when a battery is going bad and has to be replaced.

Yes, the camera records how many shots are taken on each registered battery from charge to charge, and gives you a simple graphical readout of charge efficiency keyed to each registered battery.

[jetcode]

Thanks for the update. This is likely the difference between Canon and cheap batteries which require their own charger. It makes sense to offload the battery charge and power logic to the battery itself.

[overclock]

The large part of Li-Ion batteries going up in smoke does that during charging. A big problem when you charge your laptop in your laptop. Probably a big reason why Canon prefers external chargers. Another of course that a wet camera connected to mains could be a bad idea ;)
Actually all the reports I've seen about li-ion batteries going up in smoke were when they were in use or not being charged. There was a video of some Japanese guy's laptop catching fire in the middle of a conference, ipods burning holes in pockets, and even a UPS plane that had to land due to a li-ion battery that caught the plane on fire in flight.

The cells that Canon uses are MIJ by a joint venture between Toshiba and some other company. The LP-E6 batteries have cells that are MIJ and assembled in China. And don't forget the lead based kids toys, cough syrup with poison, toothpaste with poison, and whatever else we have consumed without knowing that is unregulated in China.

[RDKirk]

Actually all the reports I've seen about li-ion batteries going up in smoke were when they were in use or not being charged. There was a video of some Japanese guy's laptop catching fire in the middle of a conference, ipods burning holes in pockets, and even a UPS plane that had to land due to a li-ion battery that caught the plane on fire in flight.

The cells that Canon uses are MIJ by a joint venture between Toshiba and some other company. The LP-E6 batteries have cells that are MIJ and assembled in China. And don't forget the lead based kids toys, cough syrup with poison, toothpaste with poison, and whatever else we have consumed without knowing that is unregulated in China.

The only similar DSLR battery incidents I've read of were of "Canon"-branded batteries--counterfeits made in China. In a way, a battery with the Canon brand could be more dangerous than one purchased under a clear third-party brand name.

Oh, there is also the toxic dogfood and sulfer-laced toxic drywall from China.

Paul Buff, who does use Chinese imports for some of his products has complained about how hard it is to get consistent quality or more accurately, consistent adherence to specifications from there. The "front men" he deals with may actually be working with a number changing factories in China, and they have a penchant for changing specifications without telling him. He will find out later from customers that, for instance, the fabric of a diffuser has been changed from the non-fluorescing fabric he specified to one that fluoresces under UV light.

Mattel or Hasbro may have specified non-lead paint, and the original factory in China may have gotten that message, but it didn't get transferred to the subsequent factory that took over the job (without the knowledge of the Mattel or Hasbro).

The basic rule there is that the importer must be right on top of quality control the moment it reaches these shores--it can't be left to be handled within China.

[russ_hillis]

The basic rule there is that the importer must be right on top of quality control the moment it reaches these shores--it can't be left to be handled within China.

The easiest way to ensure that q/c is handled properly by Chinese manufacturers is to not buy from them in the 1st place. Human nature being what it is, we tend to gravitate to the cheapest easiest solution when the trade offs appear to be negligible. EG. $10 battery vs. $60. I can't speak directly to the LP-E6 as I don't have any yet, but the Canon factory battery is definitely better quality than the 3rd party batteries that I do own. Especially after 2 years. One thing I did do when I 1st bought the batteries that I thought was completely anal at the time was number them. Now in retrospect, it was an excellent idea as I know for certain that all of the batteries have had equal discharges & recharges and I can say that the Canon battery is without a doubt is superior in quality & longevity.

[RDKirk]

One thing I did do when I 1st bought the batteries that I thought was completely anal at the time was number them. Now in retrospect, it was an excellent idea as I know for certain that all of the batteries have had equal discharges & recharges and I can say that the Canon battery is without a doubt is superior in quality & longevity.

Well, the LP-e6 system essentially has numbered them for you, and the camera's mini-analyzer will tell you when a battery is beginning to fail...so there will be an easy way to make that judgment in the future.

[argyle]

Just wondering...is the camera "smart" enough to store info as to when a non-OEM battery has been used, and how often? If so, could Canon then use this info to deny warranty service should a problem arise with the body? I know this sounds a little "black helicopter", but you never know...

[RDKirk]

Just wondering...is the camera "smart" enough to store info as to when a non-OEM battery has been used, and how often? If so, could Canon then use this info to deny warranty service should a problem arise with the body? I know this sounds a little "black helicopter", but you never know...

People have been advancing that conspiracy theory since the 5D2 came out. However, there is at least one 3rd party true workalike for the LP-E6 that has reached the market, which proves that Canon has not implemented any kind of registration "lock out" of 3rd party batteries. That could have been easily done by an encrypted hash that would recognize authorized registry numbers by numbering pattern.

Sure, such an encrypted hash could be broken, but its existence would prove shutting out 3rd parties was Canon's intention. The fact that such encryption--which would have been easily done--does not exist is evidence in Canon's favor.

The battery registry can be purged by the user and the OEM Canon batteries can be registered in the place of any 3rd party battery. Yes, Canon could possibly set up a back-up registry that would continue to retain memory of all previous batteries, but that's even more work--and there is zero evidence that Canon has done it or would intend to do it.

Donald Rumsfeld was wrong: The absence of evidence is the evidence of absence.

[TeamSpeed]

Not only that, Canon could not do anything with that info anyways. Unless they could prove the 3rd party battery unequivocally caused whatever issue you sent the camera in, they cannot deny warranty work, at least in the US.

[russ_hillis]

Well, the LP-e6 system essentially has numbered them for you, and the camera's mini-analyzer will tell you when a battery is beginning to fail...so there will be an easy way to make that judgment in the future.


So you're saying that I can just grab the battery out of the bag and I will *SEE* that I'm battery X, Y or Z. I numbered the batteries so I could tell them apart, not the camera. I could care less about what the camera is tracking. I did it to even out the wear & tear on the batteries. Hence, I rotate their usage, Canon battery, then #2 & then #3. All done with a simple paint marker - no computer chip required.

[RDKirk]

So you're saying that I can just grab the battery out of the bag and I will *SEE* that I'm battery X, Y or Z. I numbered the batteries so I could tell them apart, not the camera. I could care less about what the camera is tracking. I did it to even out the wear & tear on the batteries. Hence, I rotate their usage, Canon battery, then #2 & then #3. All done with a simple paint marker - no computer chip required.

As I said, the camera contains a mini-analyzer that tracks the efficiency of the batteries recharge capacity over time, so the camera can tell you when the battery is losing its ability to hold a charge.

Even if you rotate the usage of the batteries, batteries are not equal. Some last longer, some die early because of variations in processing regardless how you handle them.

Of course, you can do that with careful record keeping yourself, but why continue to do something the camera does better automatically?

[russ_hillis]

As I said, the camera contains a mini-analyzer that tracks the efficiency of the batteries recharge capacity over time, so the camera can tell you when the battery is losing its ability to hold a charge.

Even if you rotate the usage of the batteries, batteries are not equal. Some last longer, some die early because of variations in processing regardless how you handle them.

Of course, you can do that with careful record keeping yourself, but why continue to do something the camera does better automatically?


Careful record keeping? LOL use battery 1 when it goes dead use battery 2 while #1 charges, when battery 2 dies put in battery 3, charge #2. All the while, I always have a backup battery. If one of the batteries starts dying faster than what I like I replace it. It's no different than rotating tires on your car and it certainly doesn't require a micro-chip.

What I'm doing isn't difficult or cumbersome, it's simple, fast & easy. I can tell which battery I'm going to use next by which battery I'm removing from the camera.

[RDKirk]

Careful record keeping? LOL use battery 1 when it goes dead use battery 2 while #1 charges, when battery 2 dies put in battery 3, charge #2. All the while, I always have a backup battery. If one of the batteries starts dying faster than what I like I replace it. It's no different than rotating tires on your car and it certainly doesn't require a micro-chip.

What I'm doing isn't difficult or cumbersome, it's simple, fast & easy. I can tell which battery I'm going to use next by which battery I'm removing from the camera.

Well, Canon has given you a microchip, so there it is. I also did fine without a built-in light meter, without autofocusing, and even without an automatically closing aperture.

[alduin]

What I'm doing isn't difficult or cumbersome, it's simple, fast & easy. I can tell which battery I'm going to use next by which battery I'm removing from the camera.

Cameras will always have a subset of features that not everyone finds useful.

Direct print, anyone? ;)

[jetcode]

Cameras will always have a subset of features that not everyone finds useful.

Direct print, anyone? ;)

They even gave us a dedicated button for that right??? Yikes!

[argyle]

Not only that, Canon could not do anything with that info anyways. Unless they could prove the 3rd party battery unequivocally caused whatever issue you sent the camera in, they cannot deny warranty work, at least in the US.

I was thinking more along the lines of electronics/circuitry damage. I'm sure that Canon could say that, upon inspection, electrical damage could have been caused by the non-OEM battery, and deny coverage (especially if the documentation specified OEM battery usage only). How would you prove them wrong, if the camera could store this info, short of sending the camera to an independent lab at probably considerable expense? Much like denying warranty coverage if you happen to expose your camera to water. I'm not saying this *will* happen, just wondering if it plausibly could arise.

[RDKirk]

I was thinking more along the lines of electronics/circuitry damage. I'm sure that Canon could say that, upon inspection, electrical damage could have been caused by the non-OEM battery, and deny coverage (especially if the documentation specified OEM battery usage only). How would you prove them wrong, if the camera could store this info, short of sending the camera to an independent lab at probably considerable expense? Much like denying warranty coverage if you happen to expose your camera to water. I'm not saying this *will* happen, just wondering if it plausibly could arise.

Canon lenses have reported their identities to the camera ever since the EF mount was introduced. Canon could have been denying warranty claims for using non-Canon lenses, too, if they had been inclined to do so.

[argyle]

Canon lenses have reported their identities to the camera ever since the EF mount was introduced. Canon could have been denying warranty claims for using non-Canon lenses, too, if they had been inclined to do so.

Good point...hadn't looked at it from that point of view.

[russ_hillis]

Canon lenses have reported their identities to the camera ever since the EF mount was introduced. Canon could have been denying warranty claims for using non-Canon lenses, too, if they had been inclined to do so.

which does bring up a good point; up til now it's been lenses which consume power. Batteries supply power which can create issues if the QC is poor. Ever try to use cheap knock off AA batteries in a PF Owl? The camera won't boot (protection circuit?) and that's from the film days. The cheap batteries are over voltage in the order of 1.9 or 2.0v rather than 1.5-1.6V! And who knows what amperage they were delivering. OTH, the same camera will boot with quality 1.2v rechargeables with out any issues.

[RDKirk]

which does bring up a good point; up til now it's been lenses which consume power. Batteries supply power which can create issues if the QC is poor. Ever try to use cheap knock off AA batteries in a PF Owl? The camera won't boot (protection circuit?) and that's from the film days. The cheap batteries are over voltage in the order of 1.9 or 2.0v rather than 1.5-1.6V! And who knows what amperage they were delivering. OTH, the same camera will boot with quality 1.2v rechargeables with out any issues.

Cameras like the 7D and 5D2 integrate so completely with their power supplies that I would confident any 3rd party battery that actually works like an OEM battery--displays, charges, et cetera--is properly made in every other way.

[pwm2]

which does bring up a good point; up til now it's been lenses which consume power. Batteries supply power which can create issues if the QC is poor. Ever try to use cheap knock off AA batteries in a PF Owl? The camera won't boot (protection circuit?) and that's from the film days. The cheap batteries are over voltage in the order of 1.9 or 2.0v rather than 1.5-1.6V! And who knows what amperage they were delivering. OTH, the same camera will boot with quality 1.2v rechargeables with out any issues.
Exactly where do you get these batteries?

You don't get overvoltages from low-quality batteries, since the voltage is controlled by the chemistry. But low-quality batteries can have very high series resistance, which means that the voltage will drop drastically when you put on a load. And a camera can produce a huge pulse load.

My Dimage 7 camera often turn off after 5-10 shots with AA dry cells, but can do 100-200 shots with rechargeable batteries. All because of the rechargeable batteries having way lower inner resistance.

By the way - "knock off" is a copy/immitation that sells for less than the original. But what is a "knock off" AA battery? Do you regularly buy false batteries claiming to be Duracell? I don't think I have ever seen any AA batteries claiming to be a known brand. And being of an unknown brand doesn't make them knock offs.

[russ_hillis]

Exactly where do you get these batteries?

You don't get overvoltages from low-quality batteries, since the voltage is controlled by the chemistry. But low-quality batteries can have very high series resistance, which means that the voltage will drop drastically when you put on a load. And a camera can produce a huge pulse load.

My Dimage 7 camera often turn off after 5-10 shots with AA dry cells, but can do 100-200 shots with rechargeable batteries. All because of the rechargeable batteries having way lower inner resistance.

By the way - "knock off" is a copy/immitation that sells for less than the original. But what is a "knock off" AA battery? Do you regularly buy false batteries claiming to be Duracell? I don't think I have ever seen any AA batteries claiming to be a known brand. And being of an unknown brand doesn't make them knock offs.

Fields, a discount store, measured the voltage with a Fluke multimeter. Have you not heard about the issues with cheap batteries? I didn't say I bought knock offs; I said I bought CHEAP batteries hoping to run 4 or 5 IR triggered cameras and it was a failure. I invested in some good quality NiMH rechargeables instead. Chemistry also controls the amount of voltage delivered by the pile. eg. Automotive batteries will typically deliver 2.1 volts / cell. Thats HOW you get an over voltage and it's also why up most rechargeable AA only deliver 1.2v.

[pwm2]

Fields, a discount store, measured the voltage with a Fluke multimeter. Have you not heard about the issues with cheap batteries? I didn't say I bought knock offs; I said I bought CHEAP batteries hoping to run 4 or 5 IR triggered cameras and it was a failure. I invested in some good quality NiMH rechargeables instead. Chemistry also controls the amount of voltage delivered by the pile. eg. Automotive batteries will typically deliver 2.1 volts / cell. Thats HOW you get an over voltage and it's also why up most rechargeable AA only deliver 1.2v.
You did write "Ever try to use cheap knock off AA batteries in a PF Owl?", remember?

"Chemistry also controls the amount of voltage".
Not "also". A specific chemistry does have a specific voltage, which is why you don't get random voltages from batteries of a specific type. QA doesn't make a chemistry to suddenly manage a completely different voltage. The tolerances of the chemical mixture will make a very small change in voltage - but may make a significant change in inner resistance and in total capacity. Quality buys you extra capacity, lower inner resistance, thicker walls, less self-discharge etc. It is because the chemistry totally controls the voltage that both NiMH and NiCD cells only manages 1.2V - tweaking just can't step up the voltage to 1.5V.

Yes, chemistry controls the voltage. The "automotive" batteries are normally known as Lead-acid batteries. Totally irrelevant to the voltage you get in the AA batteries. Just as one type of lithium batteries gives 1.5V (LI/FeS2), another gives 3V (LiMnO2) and a third gives 3.6V (LiSOCl2). But a 3V lithium battery will never suddenly manage 3.6V because the mangan-dioxide will not suddenly become thionyl chloride.

[TeamSpeed]

I have an aftermarket Titan LP-E6 battery and charger. It works quite well and lasts a very long time. I ended up buying a couple of extras for those that might want one as well. I have had other Titan batteries and they worked well. For it not reporting to the camera, I just watch for the 700th or so shot, and recharge it. I can buy almost 3 for the price of one factory battery ($25 for a battery and charger).

[joshphoto]

check out sterlingtek

[TeamSpeed]

No, they don't have anything yet, and when/if they do, most likely it will be like the other aftermarket batteries without the serialization chip.

[RDKirk]

No, they don't have anything yet, and when/if they do, most likely it will be like the other aftermarket batteries without the serialization chip.

It took two years before 3rd party companies came out with copies of the BP-511. There is at least one company that is already producing a workalike copy of the LP-E6--they're apparently having a hard time meeting demand. Now that it's clear that all of Canon's future cameras will have chipped batteries, I suspect other companies are working hard to duplicate and import it.

[msowsun]

There is at least one company that is already producing a workalike copy of the LP-E6--they're apparently having a hard time meeting demand.





Which company is that? When you say "workalike", does that mean it has a chip? Or are you referring to the many Ebay LP-E6 batteries available?

[RDKirk]

Which company is that? When you say "workalike", does that mean it has a chip? Or are you referring to the many Ebay LP-E6 batteries available?

By "workalike" I mean that it works just like an OEM LP-E6 battery--it has a chip that communicates fully with the camera and can be recharged in the Canon charger. I can't recall the name of the company that sells them, but they were mentioned in the battery sticky thread.

[simply.blue]

Was it Diamondback battery? I think they said their chip is not "100%" compatible, yet.

[TeamSpeed]

I guess I don't see why a $20 aftermarket is such a pain. I use one and have a couple new ones for sale for others that need one at 1/3 the price. I just know that by image count X+700, I will take out the battery and swap with the next one. I don't need $40 of circuitry to tell me when to switch. As a hobbyist this works. I could see if you were a pro and didn't need the hassle.

[RDKirk]

I guess I don't see why a $20 aftermarket is such a pain. I use one and have a couple new ones for sale for others that need one at 1/3 the price. I just know that by image count X+700, I will take out the battery and swap with the next one. I don't need $40 of circuitry to tell me when to switch. As a hobbyist this works. I could see if you were a pro and didn't need the hassle.

One of the ways of gaining some confidence that the battery is actually decently made is whether it truly works in all ways like the OEM battery. If it comes deficient in operation up front, especially in reporting any parameter of status, you have no clue what other build factors might have been left out.

[russ_hillis]

It appears that Diamondback pulled their LP-E6 workalike. http://diamondbackbatt.blogspot.com/2009/08/hello-everyone.html

I tried to check and see if they had re-listed since the post on blogger is 3 months old. Checked the website but I didn't see it there.

[RDKirk]

There is the Lenmar DLCE6 and another that I can't recall. The major problem with the true workalikes is that they have all been in the $50-60 range. Now the Canon-brand batteries have dropped to the $60-70 range, that's pretty much cut the market for the 3rd parties until they can get their production costs pushed down.

[TeamSpeed]

One of the ways of gaining some confidence that the battery is actually decently made is whether it truly works in all ways like the OEM battery. If it comes deficient in operation up front, especially in reporting any parameter of status, you have no clue what other build factors might have been left out.

There is nothing elaborate in the actual batteries themselves, I have rebuilt laptop and camera batteries in the past. I am familiar with the Titan line, I used them on the MKIII and they worked flawlessly like the factory LP-E4. The only thing now on the LP-E6 is that they need to reverse engineer the communications and circuitry that will sit inside the case between the contacts and the actual cells.

I am not saying this is a blanket statement for all aftermarket ones, just ones that are already determined to be reputable, but don't report.

[RDKirk]

I am not saying this is a blanket statement for all aftermarket ones, just ones that are already determined to be reputable, but don't report.

However, I don't believe any of the 3rd party companies that have established brand-name reputations for reliability and service (like SterlingTek) have produced any chipless LP-E6 replacements. I suspect they're still working on true workalikes.

[pwm2]

However, I don't believe any of the 3rd party companies that have established brand-name reputations for reliability and service (like SterlingTek) have produced any chipless LP-E6 replacements. I suspect they're still working on true workalikes.
That might be almost impossible, depending on the chip and protocol used. If Canon is using a custom chip, it will be way more expensive for a third-party to duplicate the functionality using standard components. And if Canon is using encryption technology, it may be extremely hard to manage to extract the crypto key.

Encrypted communication have been used in a number of situations to try to lock out competition. Color cartridges for ink-jet printers is probably the most well-known example.

[RDKirk]

That might be almost impossible, depending on the chip and protocol used. If Canon is using a custom chip, it will be way more expensive for a third-party to duplicate the functionality using standard components. And if Canon is using encryption technology, it may be extremely hard to manage to extract the crypto key.

Encrypted communication have been used in a number of situations to try to lock out competition. Color cartridges for ink-jet printers is probably the most well-known example.

A. We already know Canon is not encrypting the chips (at least not effectively) because some chipped workalikes have been placed on the market.

B. Chipping for the purpose of encryption isn't really working for Epson, either. They have to change the encryption every few months because the 3rd party ink suppliers keep successfully breaking it.

[TeamSpeed]

However, I don't believe any of the 3rd party companies that have established brand-name reputations for reliability and service (like SterlingTek) have produced any chipless LP-E6 replacements. I suspect they're still working on true workalikes.

Correct, but you don't need a chipped aftermarket, you can make due with a $20 non-chipped LP-E6 battery, you just have to know the final image count when you need to pull the battery. Much like having a motorcycle with no gas gauge, you watch your mileage to decide when to get gas....

[RDKirk]

Two current sources for chipped 3rd party LP-E6 batteries:

http://www.amazon.com/Maximal-Power-2000mAh-Extended-Battery/dp/B002EXH0YU

mydigitaldiscount.com

[hbomb69]

Have you used these versions, as I can't see where it says 'Chipped' in the advert.??

Mike

Two current sources for chipped 3rd party LP-E6 batteries:

http://www.amazon.com/Maximal-Power-2000mAh-Extended-Battery/dp/B002EXH0YU

mydigitaldiscount.com

[RDKirk]

Have you used these versions, as I can't see where it says 'Chipped' in the advert.??

Mike

I'm going on reviews of the products that report these batteries use the Canon charger and communicate fully with the camera.

I would point out, though, that these are "new" and unknown imports--not the well-known, reputable 3rd party brands like SterlingTek and Lenmar. I suspect SterlingTek and Lenmar are still working on getting reliable supplies from their manufacturing sources.

[davidahn]

I just got home today from a 7-day Mexico cruise. I took my 5DII, 16GB CF card, and two OEM LP-E6's (1/4 charge and full). I left my charger at home, and forgot my 32GB CF card. My MacBook Air doesn't have Firewire, so left my card reader. By Sunday night one battery was blinking. By Wed am, my 2nd battery was down to 1/2. My CF card was full so I offloaded the card. By Wed pm I was down to 2 blinking batteries. I had to save up my 5DII for important shots because I could NOT find a way to charge these LP-E6's!!! I searched for an LC-E6, but only found a $60 compatible universal charger that only fit up to the LC-E5. I thought of wiring the +/- contacts to the charger for my G10, but my wife said not to risk it.

Take home lessons:
1. I need to pack my gear, namely the LC-E6 and spare CF card, and once I go back to a MacBook Pro, the FW card reader as well.
2. I wish there were a battery adapter to use 2 AA's in emergencies!!! There is a AA magazine for the battery grip, but not for the regular LP-E6.
3. I will probably forget the charger again. I noted that the Canon G10, Rebel T1i, and another P&S camera's chargers all use 8.4V @ 0.7A, but the LC-E6 uses 8.4V @ 1.2A. Is there a battery expert here who knows if it's safe to manually wire any other charger to the battery by direct wire?

David

[pwm2]

I just got home today from a 7-day Mexico cruise. I took my 5DII, 16GB CF card, and two OEM LP-E6's (1/4 charge and full). I left my charger at home, and forgot my 32GB CF card. My MacBook Air doesn't have Firewire, so left my card reader. By Sunday night one battery was blinking. By Wed am, my 2nd battery was down to 1/2. My CF card was full so I offloaded the card. By Wed pm I was down to 2 blinking batteries. I had to save up my 5DII for important shots because I could NOT find a way to charge these LP-E6's!!! I searched for an LC-E6, but only found a $60 compatible universal charger that only fit up to the LC-E5. I thought of wiring the +/- contacts to the charger for my G10, but my wife said not to risk it.

Take home lessons:
1. I need to pack my gear, namely the LC-E6 and spare CF card, and once I go back to a MacBook Pro, the FW card reader as well.
2. I wish there were a battery adapter to use 2 AA's in emergencies!!! There is a AA magazine for the battery grip, but not for the regular LP-E6.
3. I will probably forget the charger again. I noted that the Canon G10, Rebel T1i, and another P&S camera's chargers all use 8.4V @ 0.7A, but the LC-E6 uses 8.4V @ 1.2A. Is there a battery expert here who knows if it's safe to manually wire any other charger to the battery by direct wire?

David
No, it isn't generally safe to manually wire a different charger when using Li-Ion batteries. The reason is that just a couple of percent of over-charge is enough to light up your battery. A large part of the intelligence in the battery and chargers are there to keep track of the exact charge state, to ignore too empty batteries and stop before they become too close to overcharged.

Another thing is that your older charger was specified for smaller batteries, and could potentially (unless the overload protection got activated) be damaged by the use with more powerful batteries. But that depends a bit on the design. The lower capacity charger could have worked ok, but with a lower charge current and correspondingly higher charge time.

One thing to note is that a lot of Li-Ion chargers will talk with the battery, and will refuse to charge the battery unless they can correctly identify the battery and the current battery state.

A too depleted battery may fail to charge - the charger decides that it isn't safe to charge it. A different charger (third-party "generic" multi-charger, or an older/newer charger from the same manufacturer) may be programmed with different safety limits and may start the charge anyway, allowing the battery to then be used with the original charger again.

About use of AA batteries. You would need 6 cells to get 7.2V with 1.2V NiMH AA batteries. You can't fit 6 AA batteries within the body. And if they designed the body with step-up electronics to work from a lower voltage, the camera would need very high currents in bursts when operating. Two AA batteries wouldn't manage this current, so the camera would have to shut down. Switching to smaller batteries than AA, you could fit more cells, but their capacity for high current pulses would then go down, giving the same problem. What Canon could have considered would then be an external battery pack together with their dummy batteries intended for use with an AC adapter. This would be similar to the external battery pack CP-E4 for the 580EX II. But most photographers would probably prefer the batteries in the battery grip instead of having a cable to a battery pack in your belt, so in the end, I think most people are satisfied with the current options.

[davidahn]

Thanks, PWM. You make some very good points. I was under the impression most batteries contained their own charging intelligence with only the current supplied by the transformer. I was also assuming the use of a step-up transformer with the 2.4V supplied by 2 NiMH's, but wasn't sure about the details. I know NiMH batteries do surprisingly well in cameras (more than 2x the "shots" as alkaline), but I don't know about the extra current, etc.

I just felt so powerless with my great camera, two dead batteries, and no way to charge them. The battery grip isn't really something I want, because I don't take 500+ shots in a single day, and I prefer the weight and size savings of the 5DII alone. I guess the take-home message is never leave home without a charger, or at least a few more spare batteries!

[davidahn]

BTW, anyone have positive results using an aftermarket charger with OEM batteries? My biggest fear is taking my BC-E6 OEM charger on a trip and losing/breaking it, then I have no charger. I was toying with the idea of buying a couple of backup batteries and chargers in case my charge ran down on the OEM batteries, and if I lost one of my aftermarket chargers I'd still have my OEM charger.

[msowsun]

Two current sources for chipped 3rd party LP-E6 batteries:

http://www.amazon.com/Maximal-Power-2000mAh-Extended-Battery/dp/B002EXH0YU

mydigitaldiscount.com

I ordered the Synergy battery from Amazon and it is NOT chipped. Also "mydigitaldiscount.com" does not show the LP-E6 as available.

[pwm2]

For mobile equipment, I normally check what options there are to either supply them from 5V (USB or similar) or from 12-14V (car batteries). There are also good step-up converters for laptops that may need 18V or higher. But the important thing is that you can almost always manage 5V or 12V in strange countries or late at night.

In your case, a Canon DR-E6 DC Coupler would allow you to keep your camera powered from almost anything capable of supplying electric energy.

[RDKirk]

I ordered the Synergy battery from Amazon and it is NOT chipped. Also "mydigitaldiscount.com" does not show the LP-E6 as available.

The battery sold by Synergy used to be advertised as chipped. It's clearly a "do-able" thing, but I suspect it's still pretty tough getting anything like satisfactory supplies and quality control out of China at the moment.

[msowsun]

I spoke to the owner of Miller Distributors, Inc. ( e-batterystore.com) (they shipped me the Synergy battery) and he says that he thinks Canon has changed something in their firmware updates to make the batteries incompatible.

[ManiZ]

I have a question. When used in tandem with a genuine Canon LP-E6 in a battery grip, wouldn't we still know the correct power status of an aftermarket LP-E6 since the camera would read the accurate status from the Canon battery which should in turn be the same as the aftermarket one? After all, if both batteries have the same power rating and are fully charged before being inserted into the grip, they should both discharge at the same rate.

What do you all think?

[TeamSpeed]

I have a question. When used in tandem with a genuine Canon LP-E6 in a battery grip, wouldn't we still know the correct power status of an aftermarket LP-E6 since the camera would read the accurate status from the Canon battery which should in turn be the same as the aftermarket one? After all, if both batteries have the same power rating and are fully charged before being inserted into the grip, they should both discharge at the same rate.

What do you all think?

It wouldn't be an exact science because the cells inside each battery pack could be different, discharge differently, etc. However, it would make for a good guideline, it would work well enough in general usage.

[ManiZ]

That was my thinking as well; that it should be almost correct due to the individual nuances of various battery brands. BTW, do the Titan brand batteries you use generally last a bit longer than their Canon equivalents? I have noticed that many reputable after market brands have slightly higher mAh rating than Canon. In that case, the camera's battery level indicator should only err on the side of having too much juice left in the battery instead of too little, when used with the genuine article.

[TeamSpeed]

That was my thinking as well; that it should be almost correct due to the individual nuances of various battery brands. BTW, do the Titan brand batteries you use generally last a bit longer than their Canon equivalents? I have noticed that many reputable after market brands have slightly higher mAh rating than Canon. In that case, the camera's battery level indicator should only err on the side of having too much juice left in the battery instead of too little, when used with the genuine article.

It was hard to tell with the Titan, when you get 2K-3K shots per battery, it becomes pretty easy for this "battery life" to be indeterminate between batteries, you just forget battery to battery!

[TeamSpeed]

That was my thinking as well; that it should be almost correct due to the individual nuances of various battery brands. BTW, do the Titan brand batteries you use generally last a bit longer than their Canon equivalents? I have noticed that many reputable after market brands have slightly higher mAh rating than Canon. In that case, the camera's battery level indicator should only err on the side of having too much juice left in the battery instead of too little, when used with the genuine article.

It was hard to tell with the Titan on the MKIII, when you get 2K-3K shots per battery, it becomes pretty easy for this "battery life" to be indeterminate between batteries. You just forget battery to battery! I don't know about the Titan line for the LP-E6 though.

[ManiZ]

BTW, do the chargers that come with after market LP-E6 batteries also charge the Canon ones (since the opposite isn't possible)? Would be nice to carry just one with me while traveling.

[RDKirk]

I have a question. When used in tandem with a genuine Canon LP-E6 in a battery grip, wouldn't we still know the correct power status of an aftermarket LP-E6 since the camera would read the accurate status from the Canon battery which should in turn be the same as the aftermarket one? After all, if both batteries have the same power rating and are fully charged before being inserted into the grip, they should both discharge at the same rate.

What do you all think?

Well, the camera does attempt to take few shots from each battery alternately to draw them down equally. But doing that requires the camera to read the power level of each battery accurately. I would think that with the mismatched pair, the grip would report the proper information for the Canon battery and give an error for the 3rd party battery.

I can't predict how it would try to alternate between them...it might just draw down from the Canon battery. That would be easy to determine, because it counts the shots taken with each battery. If you take ten shots and see that they've all been counted against the Canon battery, then you would know.

[ManiZ]

Interesting point Kirk. I have a Zeikos branded LP-E6 battery on the way from Amazon so I guess I will do some testing and find out. Will post results. If it doesn't work as expected, I can always return it.

[ManiZ]

Took the gamble...and my hypothesis was proven wrong. Kirk, you were right. If Canon and generic LP-E6 batteries are inserted in the grip simulteously, it sees only the Canon battery and counts all shots only towards that. When I take out the Canon, the generic one performs just as it does directly in the camera's body.

In the Battery Info menu on the camera, I do see both batteries when generic and Canon are inserted, except that (naturally) all the shots/battery life info is only available for the Canon one. So the camera is aware of both being in the grip, but uses the generic only when Canon is removed.

[TeamSpeed]

It may put all shots against that Canon battery, but, the voltage supply most likely would really be coming from both batteries. The camera is simply choosing to put the counts internally against the battery that is reporting itself since the other is not chipped.

[pwm2]

It can't normally take current from two batteries, because that would imply that the batteries have both poles wired together. Then, the battery with the highest voltage would charge the other battery without any current limiter.

It might have two diodes to draw current from the source with the highest voltage, but it isn't unreasonably that it actually do select which battery to use. Having two transistors to connect/disconnect to the two batteries leads to less voltage drop than the diode solution.

Some possible alternatives are:
- alternates between the two batteries, but counts the number of shots on the Canon battery.
- draws from the battery with the highest voltage, but counts the number of shots on the Canon battery.
- draws from the Canon battery until it is empty, and then switches to the unchipped battery.
- draws from the Canon battery until it is empty, and then turns off - totally ignoring the unchippped battery.

[ManiZ]

All valid points. I will buy a cheap digital voltage meter on my way home tonight to do some before/after testing on the two batteries. That's the only way to know for sure. Will post results here.

[TeamSpeed]

This grip/7D combo may act differently than others in the past, that is true. One way to tell would be to see how long the two batteries operate together in the grip. When the Canon one finally dies, does it have twice as many shots registered on it than what it would typically operate at, or does the Canon one decrease at a normal single battery configuration, the voltage indicator shows empty, but the grip continues to power the camera from the other battery?

[ManiZ]

In my initial testing two days ago, the Canon battery didn't overtly appear to be lasting longer than usual. But then again, I haven't owned the camera long enough to really be tuned in to its 'normal' battery usage to treat as a benchmark.

Also, the above could simply be by design as well. May be in such a scenario, the 7D is programmed to use up the Canon battery completely before resorting to generic. So tonight, if the voltage tester shows only the Canon battery drained after 100 shots, I will let it drain all the way down to see if the generic kicks in at that time.

[RDKirk]

Some possible alternatives are:
- alternates between the two batteries, but counts the number of shots on the Canon battery.
- draws from the battery with the highest voltage, but counts the number of shots on the Canon battery.
- draws from the Canon battery until it is empty, and then switches to the unchipped battery.
- draws from the Canon battery until it is empty, and then turns off - totally ignoring the unchippped battery.

The problem I believe is that the camera--as it rightfully complains--is not communicating with the generic battery at all, not even reading basic voltage levels. There is certainly no indication that the camera has any "idea" of the voltage level...it just continues to operate until the voltage drops too low to continue to operate.

If the camera is reading nothing from the generic battery, it can't place the generic battery into any kind of usage program. I believe that with a Canon battery to set the usage program, the camera will follow that program with the information it has: Draw from the Canon battery until it reaches its programed stop point, then simply stop.

[ManiZ]

Did some testing (albeit without a voltmeter) and the results are in. It turns out that my first suspicion (and that of some of you) was correct; when used in a battery grip, the camera (7D in my case) alternately draws power from both batteries even if one of them isn't a genuine/chipped Canon.

Test info:
- Well over 15 tests conducted; results of the final 10 were documented with photos of the battery info screen.
- Tests alternated randomly between using only Canon LP-E6 in the battery grip and using it in tandem with its after market equivalent made by Zeikos.
- Battery stats: Canon is 1800 mAh and Zeikos is advertised at 2600 mAh (I don't know whether that's just a marketing gimmick). Both are 7.2v.

Test method: Shooting video with a 7D at its default 1080p/30fps setting, completely filling a 2GB SanDisk Ultra CF card for each test. Video length turned out to be approx 5:40 in each case before the recording automatically stopped. Card was reformatted after each video session before moving to the next one. Test began with both batteries fully charged. Camera was set to MF and then left untouched for the duration of each test.

Result: Whenever only the Canon LP-E6 battery was in the grip, the 7D's battery info screen reflected it as using up 5% of available battery power for each 2GB video. When both batteries were used in tandem, the same screen showed the Canon LP-E6 as having used 1-2% of its available space for that same length of video. I assume the dynamic reading may have to do with the higher capacity of the generic battery and perhaps rounding up/down of the battery utilization value (e.g. 1.4% may reflect as 1% but 1.6% as 2%) as decimals are not used in 7D's battery meter. Please share your input on the possible causes.

Pictures:

I started taking pics after several initial tests, hence why they begin at 80%. All tests conducted back-to-back and camera was NOT used in-between (to maintain max possible accuracy of battery reading). Pardon the poor lighting, BTW.

Only Canon LP-E6

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/521/23079399.jpg

http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/2442/95520196.jpg

Both batteries

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/3844/70754846.jpg

http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/8145/95795753.jpg

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/7807/80325557.jpg

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/7283/50273356.jpg

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/6931/63896963.jpg

[ManiZ]

Only Canon LP-E6

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/1092/30997906.jpg

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1148/68737410.jpg

Both batteries

http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/1329/94207161.jpg

[RDKirk]

Factor in that if the camera is using both batteries, it will actually use the higher MaH battery first and exclusively until the two are equal, then it will begin alternating.

[ManiZ]

Yes, that could be. But either way, I am just glad I won't have to fork over for the genuine Canon and since my grip will always be on the camera and both batteries in it, I will simply go by Canon's battery monitor to know when to recharge both. And the Zeikos charger has a smaller form factor (my bag is stuffed as it is) and a cigarette plug adapter to boot! Couldn't have worked out better.

[pwm2]

Canon would score a couple of points if they could add a cigarette plug adapter for their chargers. 12V is almost always available somewhere you are out travelling.

[ManiZ]

True. And where I am going on vacation in two weeks, power outages are common. It is very nice to not have to rely just on a wall outlet to recharge the battery when in a bind.

[RDKirk]

Canon would score a couple of points if they could add a cigarette plug adapter for their chargers. 12V is almost always available somewhere you are out travelling.

Generic cigarette plug inverter adapters are available all over the place.

[pwm2]

Yes, but at an extra weight. I have a number of other battery chargers accepting either 90-250V or 12V. It wouldn't have made the charger too much costler to design it to handle 12V too. And yes, I do normally carry at least a small 75W 12->230V converter when travelling.

But we are not talking about possible work arounds. It's a question of getting bonus points for showing a bit of finesse with the released products.

[RDKirk]

Yes, but at an extra weight. I have a number of other battery chargers accepting either 90-250V or 12V. It wouldn't have made the charger too much costler to design it to handle 12V too. And yes, I do normally carry at least a small 75W 12->230V converter when travelling.

But we are not talking about possible work arounds. It's a question of getting bonus points for showing a bit of finesse with the released products.

What are you running your computer on?

[pwm2]

It is completely irrelevant what I run my computer on, since we are talking about camera equipment here.

But on one hand - I have at least 64GB of CF cards when I go somewhere with the camera. On the other hand - if I avoid editing, I can clear out the cards on laptop batteries and continue shooting. And if I need to, I can run the laptop directly from 12V.

But it really is advantageous to be able to fill up our camera batteries from 12V. Or are you explicitly claiming that it isn't useful?

[RDKirk]

But it really is advantageous to be able to fill up our camera batteries from 12V. Or are you explicitly claiming that it isn't useful?

I had been implicitly claiming it's not enough of a problem to be worth kvetching about.

Now I'm explicitly claiming it.

[pwm2]

I had been implicitly claiming it's not enough of a problem to be worth kvetching about.

Now I'm explicitly claiming it.
Not at all. Kvetching would imply that I repeated the same thing multiple times, but you did react the first time I post that it would have been a nice extra to have that feature. More like you had some personal problem with a charger with that feature.

[rdwalton]

I purchased on of these and it worked for about 2 months and then it wouldn't charge anymore. Also, your camera won't recognize the battery and display the status of the battery. It will work though, you just won't know what your battery level is. Go ahead and spend the additional $15 for the real thing. You can get them for $65 at bhphoto.com

[ManiZ]

Reginald, posting the same response in two related, but very different threads doesn't make it equally applicable to both. Are you claiming to have owned both the Zeikos aftermarket batt as well as the one by DigitalRev? Or do you think every generic battery must be the same regardless of brand?