What equipment is most usefull?

[djdante]

Hey everyone, I am very new to this forum, as, up to this point in time, I have been practicing my photographic skills on a baisc 5MP point and shoot digital camera. I am in the fortunate position, that my parents wish to purchase themselves a DSLR.

I pointed them towards the Canon 350D or the Canon 20D, two camera's between which they are still deciding about because of obvious price difference. Any pro 20D information would be welcome, because it suits my purposes much better :evil:

The real question I wanted to ask, however, was the functionality of two different 20D kits, both of which I have seen on EBAY (cheapest deals for us here is oz). I personally will be using the camera for modeling shots, and for the rest, for playing around with out in nature to learn more about getting great shots. Parents will be using it for a lot of indoor shots, getting great pictures of the grandchildren. In other words the camera would be used mostly for shots of people rather than nature. However, want to be able to still take great nature shots as well.

the two different combinations are

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=43454&item=7519489261&rd=1
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=43454&item=7519460266&rd=1

any help would be appreciated.

[CyberPet]

If it were me, I'd stay away from those "kits" and buy a great lens, a good speedlite and other gadgets I know I need/want. I don't know much about those kits and what they really are worth, but none of them feels appealing to me.

I started off with a 350D with a Tamron 28-75/2.8 and a Canon 420EX Speedlite and 1 GB memory card (have more since before). So you might want to add a camera bag and a tripod to begin with. Then when you get more familiar with the camera, then you can start looking at lenses that are good and interesting for you. The kit-lens is not bad, so it's worth getting anyway to get a bit more wide-angle.

To convince your parents to get the 20D? Well... size matter and you might feel that the 350D is a bit too small for your hands. Even if the 20D is more expensive, it might be worth to hold off some of those lenses until you know what you need, so you get the camera body you want.

I went the opposite direction... bought decent lenses and a cheaper body. The body will eventually be replaced by something else (whatever might come after the 20D or better), but the lenses are good enough to keep as long as I stay with the Canon system. The 350D will be a great backup for me later (and I do have small hands, so to me the 350D works great).

So my advice is... take your parents to a camera store, handle both models and feel them out.... let your dad feel the cameras too, so he can feel how small the 350D is. So if you don't like the size, he'll understand why. :)

[kram]

Agree with Cyberpet there. Packages didnt impress me much - in most cases, there were items I didnt need plus if you added the prices, they were not different from picking them up seperately.

a. I picked up the camera w/kit lens. Along with of course the required memory.

b. First purchase after that came a good bag - keeping in mind that the number of items will grow. Rank 1 - high ranking due to the fact that safety and comfort of use is important.

c. A tripod (I should have bought this before my Tamron 28-75 lens. This makes such a difference that no lens can ever compensate for this. I would rank this number 2.

d. Maybe a good flash - esp. if you plan to shoot indoors and family. Rank 3.

e. Then, start building your lens collection - depending on your tastes, this is a tough one to generalize. I would recommend a start by picking up a good quality lens for the kit lens range (that's why the tamron 28-75) but there are many different views.

f. Also decide if you want other stuff like battery grips/ extra batteries, eyepiece extenders etc. These can be post using the camera for a few months.

Hope this helps.

[J Rabin]

Avoid kits like Dengue Fever.
Have your parents go to a shop and look through viewfinder (VF) first! My Dad is 79. The 350XT is capable of superb images, but the VF is terrible, crippled, about like the Nikon D70 "tunnel VF" Also, he has larger hands.

I ended up getting him a used Canon 10D with about 4-5,000 shutter actuations. More solid camera with a better build. The "heft" reduces hand shake compared to the 300D/350XT for some older folks. The Canon "wheel" is present. It's not crippled in features.

The price difference you put into better starter lens, a 420EX flash, 2-512Mb Sandisk Ultra II CF cards, CF card reader, camera bag, etc. Kids indoors means a faster lens. I don't own it, but the Tamron 28-75 f/2.8 is a solid starter kit. Go to this web-site and read about one true amateur's evolving lens selection:
http://emedia.leeward.hawaii.edu/frary/photo_index.htm

If enough of money were available, buy a 20D over a discount used or NOS (new old stock) 10D for 4 reasons: 1. you need to print images bigger than A4, 2. you shoot a lot of flash, 3. you shoot a lot of low light high ISO, 4. you shoot sports and need better servo focus than the 350XT or 10D. You will not be disappointed nor regretful. The 20D is an amazing capable tool, more than most people will need and use, and there is nothing comparable on the market in its price range, J.

[felix21685]

those sigma lenses is what i have and let me tell you they cripple the camera like mine or the 20D a great deal sometimes..

its better to get a cheaper camera and nice lenses..

[djdante]

Thanks guys for the advice.. Perhaps I should re-iterate a few minor things..

If I walk into a camera store here in sydney, I can get a 20D with standard lense for $2700. If I purchase is over ebay, I can get it for $2500 with all of those extra items. What is the quality of those exra lenses? Are you telling me, that I would still be better off purchasing a 350D with a standard lense, and dish out the extra $100 for memory card, and $400 for lense of choice? Tripod and case would also need to be purchased, so maybe another $100. All up, those things would cost me $2200, and I would only have a 350D.

I do admit, that I tend to get caught up in the extra abilities of a camera such as the 20D rather than the actual functionality (the curse of the young i guess). A real peeve that I have with digital cameras, is not getting colours brilliant enough, and/or not accurate. Are both cameras going to be pretty similar in this regard?

[tim]

Don't buy the kits, they're crap, the "pro equipment" claim is complete horse****. Instead, if money's an issue, buy good equipment from http://www.bhphotovideo.com , they ship to me in New Zealand no problem at all. I personally buy lenses and accessories from there, but I buy my camera bodies from a parallel importer here in NZ - I had to return my first 20D because the sensor was dirty and couldn't be effectively cleaned. Another Australian should pop up and recommend a good store soon.

If you buy cheap equipment you'll end up relacing it soon enough, which will cost you more in the end.

Get yourself a body from a parallel importer in Aus. From B&H add a 1-2GB Sandisk Ultra II card, a Bogen/Manfrotto tripod, a Tamron 28-75 lens, maybe a 50mm F1.8 lens, and you're set to start with. Add a 70-200 F4 lens if you want a telephono lens.

hth.

[kram]

Check out the reviews for the 350D/300D/20D on review sites. Evaluate if you are really going to be crippled by the features the 350 or the 300 dont have vs the 20D. If you have an idea of the type of photographer you want to be become, place more focus on those features - eg. action, sports, tough work conditions etc.

I would be surprised if new SLR users would find the 300 or 350 a limiting factor. And of course, the sensor quality on these is comparable - you can check that in the reviews.

The full set of tripod+flash+some good lens + 350/300 would in most cases be better than a 20D with no accessories.

[djdante]

Hrm.. I never knew there might be a possibility of a dirty sensor when it comes in the box. My problem is that it costs me just as much to buy it in a kit as it does to buy it not in a kit. Or I should say maybe give or take $200. I have no idea why this is, but you can see for youself on ebay.

I am however now a bit worried about the trouble of returning a camera all that way should there be a fault with it. It is just that, through e-bay, it is a heck of a lot cheaper.

I have been into the store to check out both cameras. My dad and I both agreed that the 20D felt a bit better to hold, but useability for both seemed pretty simliar. I don't suppose anyone has seen a comparison between the two cameras floating around? Because the 20D is priced in a different class, finding comparisons between the two seems to be nigh impossible.

I do admit, that at this point in time, the 350 is not going to limit me. So perhaps I am better off getting some good quality lenses for that instead?

[gastroboy]

Okay time for another australian to pop up to mention a good store. i agree with what Tim says, get the body here and the lens's from whoever is the most reliable as the lens (canon ones) have a worldwide warranty so it does not matter where you get it from.

A good Australian store (i have dealt with them a number of times is www.centre.net.au
they are based in Tullamerine in Melb (near the airport) and sell the stuff for fairly good prices. You do not pay GST as they act as (non-representative) agent for a store in Malaysia (so they say). YOu can get the 20D with kit lens there for $2469 (no GST to pay) plus a 1 year Mackcam warranty (I raised the question about the Mackcam warranty earlier in this forum if you wanna dig it up). Delivery including insurance is around $70 I think. Not as cheap as ebay but at least you know where they are located. There are some online camera store based in Sydney I recall. Check them out....do a Google for em...camerawarehouse or something like that.

BTW: if you ever go to Malaysia, the stuff is SOOOOO cheap there. I got a 420EX flash for $250 Ozzie - could of got it for $220 but they had no stock. (well its the same as US prices but SOOO cheap compared to the $370-$470 they ask for here.)

Oh yes, 350D and 20D question - all about preference I guess. You/parents have to try em out to see which you like better....no real deciding factor any of us can tell you about. Don't let ur mum try it though, she will probably like the smaller 350D. :-).

[I Simonius]

yes avoid those kits!
Looking at the kits anyway - it looks more like theyre trying to clear old stock than offering a cool deal (not the 20D but the accessories- especially that very dodgy looking wide angle lens they're trying to get rid of!)

Get the camera on it's own and buy lenses separately as you can afford them

[I Simonius]

snip>I do admit, that I tend to get caught up in the extra abilities of a camera such as the 20D rather than the actual functionality (the curse of the young i guess). A real peeve that I have with digital cameras, is not getting colours brilliant enough, and/or not accurate. Are both cameras going to be pretty similar in this regard?

You will probbaly need to do some post processing work on the pictures. Then the colours and sharpness will be what you expect. The Quailty from thje 20D is fantastic - but ti took me a while to understand that it does need some post processing.

If you don't like using a computer get the 350 as it might have more in camera processing than the 20D (I don't know as I only have the 20D - others can tell you) You will get the colour you expect, especially after fiddling about with the shots in the computer.Photoshop elementts 2 comes with the camera
If you like a 'proper' camera - get the 20D. It feels more solid and the controls are more intuitive and fall easier to the hand. I tried a 350 in th eshop and it was too small and light for me.

[Jon]

If there was any question that the kits are just throwing loose bits and pieces together, notice that the first one includes a 49->52 mm step-up ring, but none of the lenses take 49 mm filters. Also the "Wide angle lens" is a screw-on lens converter, and those historically have serious optical problems. And the prices are probably in US dollars, not Australian. The warranties are stated as US, so buyer beware.

[djdante]

Thanks a lot for the input guys, I must say, I am starting to lean towards purchasing a 350D with decent lenses rather than a 20D with a standard lense. I just want to be sure that I am not going to make a mistake by going with a more basic camera. As far as post processing work goes, I run a mac with a apple cinema display, and Photoshop 8, I also have access to quite a few photoshop add-ons, and I always planned to get into the post-processing side of things because I could always see how much of a difference it made.

I can see that a lot of you have the canon 20D, so answere me this if you can.. Other than the feel of the camera, speaking more directly about features, what was it the made you spend the extra money on the 20D that could have been spent on equipment?

[Jon]

The DRXT wasn't out when I got my 20D. The D60 just didn't respond as quickly as I would have preferred, and I wanted more focussing points since I had to rely on AF with that screen. The bigger buffer than the D60 was also a plus. The 10D and DR didn't offer a big enough step from the D60 to satisfy me.

[d'homme]

1. Get the camera you want and one that has room for you to grow into. Meaning, because you don't understand some features now, don't mean you won't learn and use them in the future.

2. Get a quality lens.

3. Get a good flash. Preferably one with tilting ability and the ability to be used off camera.

4. Get a good study tripod. A cheap light tripod will move and vibrate in a breeze.

[CyberPet]

Since I own the 350D I can only say that size is the only major difference (beside the price) that got me to buy it. I have small hands.

But, after trying a friends 1D + grip + 70-200/2.8 IS, I say size only matter with big lenses... the 1D is very heavy and big, but I had no problems - even with small hands - to handle this "monster". The 20D is a lot smaller than the 1D so now I'm regretting it a bit that I didn't buy the 20D.

But the results from my 350D is excellent and I have no regrets when it comes to what I get out on the camera and deal with on my Macintosh (yes I'm a Mac geek too, although not fortunate enough to have a big Cinema display).

So try the 350D and the 20D and *feel them*.... that will be the deciding factor, not the price.

[I Simonius]

Thanks a lot for the input guys, I must say, I am starting to lean towards purchasing a 350D with decent lenses rather than a 20D with a standard lense. I just want to be sure that I am not going to make a mistake by going with a more basic camera. As far as post processing work goes, I run a mac with a apple cinema display, and Photoshop 8, I also have access to quite a few photoshop add-ons, and I always planned to get into the post-processing side of things because I could always see how much of a difference it made.

I can see that a lot of you have the canon 20D, so answere me this if you can.. Other than the feel of the camera, speaking more directly about features, what was it the made you spend the extra money on the 20D that could have been spent on equipment?

It WAS the feel- honest. Go and feel em both and yoiu'll see what I mean

[lostdoggy]

I think, US warranty is world wide and world wide warrantee excludes US.
I have the DRebel and doesn't really have much in camera processing unless you're talking about the Basic Mode.

[djdante]

So... what you guys are telling me, is that canon is charging everyone an extra $1000 simply because the camera feels better, it has to more AF points, and a higher rate of burst shots? That doesn't sound right...

[Andy_T]

So... what you guys are telling me, is that canon is charging everyone an extra $1000 simply because the camera feels better, it has to more AF points, and a higher rate of burst shots? That doesn't sound right...

Well, it's called 'Marketing' :lol:
It's the art of making those who are able to spend the extra money do so (but the price difference between the 350D and the 20D is NOT $1000).

Best regards,
Andy

[djdante]

Thanks for the help guys, went into the store today, talked in depth about both cameras, had a play with them both. We are going to get a 350D and make sure we have decent lenses/equipment. The next big issue, is lenses, but I will post a new thread in the lenses forum.

I think you will see a lot more posts by me, as I get more and more invovled with the camera.

[I Simonius]

So... what you guys are telling me, is that canon is charging everyone an extra $1000 simply because the camera feels better, it has to more AF points, and a higher rate of burst shots? That doesn't sound right...

WIERD HUH?

[mdude85]

WOW

RED FLAGS everywhere

don't let this guy fool you on the second auction link. I won't even dare look at the first, as it is probably similar. First he lists the entire package at MSRP $4200. Let's take a look at the REAL PRICES of each of these items.

Canon 20D -- auction lists at $2400 for body only! HAH. 20D *with kit lens* listed at $1600 at Best Buy! Can usually get the body for $1400 if you shop smart.

18-55 zoom lens -- usually comes with the camera, if not, $100. $300 is overpriced

75-300 lens -- BEWARE HERE. SIGMA LENS IS SHOWN IN THE PICTURE, but the seller advertises Canon lens. Listed at MSRP $300, both the Sigma and Canon lenses are worth barely more than $200 even at Best Buy.

"High Resolution Wide Angle Lens" -- this is no more than a cheap WIDE-ANGLE ATTACHMENT for a normal lens. It's just a couple of pieces of glass in a metal body that you screw onto a lens and it maximizes the angle of view. That BS about a quick auto-focus is misleading ... the attachment doesn't autofocus, the lens it attaches to does! I had one for a month or two. I could easily take it apart and then put it back together, it's so poorly made. (Produces sharp images though IMO). This lists MSRP at $400! I got one of the better WA lens attachments for $45!!!

"Professional Filter Kit" MSRP $149. Yeah, right. Generic filters, no filter size listed! Probably worth $50 at most

"5 Piece Cleaning Kit" MSRP $19. That's pretty accurate, but you can get them for as low as $10 at reputable online stores.

Table Top Tripod lists at $15 on the auction, worth no more than $10 even in camera stores

2 GB flash memory card -- the only decently priced thing on here. $199 is pretty standard if you buy direct from a store, but you can find a better deal.

"USB Card Reader" auction lists at $39, but costs no more than $20 at Best Buy

Tripod auction lists at $99, worth no more than $30 in major stores

"Deluxe Camera Case" -- auction lists at $99...maybe for a Lowepro! This one is worth no more than $50

Aluminum Case -- auction lists at $149, I have no idea how much these are worth



As you can see, all these accessories are not worth $4200 as the auction lists. Probably worth $1800 at most including 20D. I can see the auction is already up over $1800. At this point it would be better to buy all the accessories seperately. Everything is exhorbitantly overpriced in this auction. BEWARE!

[canon2od]

The following advice from CyberPet is the approach I used and was very thankful I chose this path.

"So my advice is... take your parents to a camera store, handle both models and feel them out.... let your dad feel the cameras too, so he can feel how small the 350D is. So if you don't like the size, he'll understand why. :)"

[CyberPet]

canon2od, yeah exactly! And yet I bought the 350D... hahaha... go figure. But i love the 20D and I'd die of happiness if someone would give me a Mark II :D