EF-S 10-22 and 28-135 USM IS ~or~ 24-85 USM ~ or something else? (W/20D)

[colourstorm]

It's finally time for me to buy my EOS 20D (finishing exams) and am stuck as to what lenses I should buy, because the top 10 lenses list doesn't take into account APS-C sensor crop factor - which is 1.6x on the 20D.

As I love using wide angle (have finepix s602) and would love something even wider, I'm going to go for the EF-S 10-22 which gives me 16-35mm, but don't know what to get to go along with it.

I currently have £1690, minus the price of the 20D with extra battery and 2GB microdrive inc. delivery+import, £770, minus the price of the 10-22, £350.

So you can see, I only have enough money to get one more lens! (possibly 50mm too...)

I can get the EF 24-85 USM on eBay for just under £200, and the EF 28-135 USM IS for £280. (both new)

If I get the EF 28-135 USM IS (45-216mm W/20D), my lenses wouldn't cover 35mm to 45mm, which I guess doing general photography you'd use quite often?

Would this be a problem - or am I wrong in thinking that 35-45mm is a fairly critical focal length to cover?

If anyone has any other suggestions on what would be a wise choice taking into account the limited funds I have that'd be great too!

[Admittedly, in a few weeks I would be able to afford both the lenses mentioned above (I earn £40 a week and haven't spent a penny for ages) but I'll be needing filters, lens hoods, cases and a better tripod etc.]

Thanks once again!
Joe

*I forgot to mention that I also love macro photography, and want to the know the best way into this with a digital SLR -WITHOUT- buying a 'real' macro lens. I think extension tubes are better than those twist on add-ons at the end of your lens - is this correct? Any tips on macro equipment too?

[weemannie]

The 10-22 is a lovely lens, I'm sure you'll really enjoy using it.

I don't know about the 24-85, but the 28-135IS is a popular lens.
I've looked at a number of my landscapes and most fall in the 24-28 and 50-70 range (before allowing for the crop factor).

As far as macro is concerned, yes, extension tubes will be better optically than add-ons'. There's no glass involved. Tamron do a nice 90mm 1:1 lens, that has had really good reviews. I have one of the older ones and have been very pleased with the results. You should be able to pick one up quite cheaply on ebay

Good luck with your purchases :D

[colourstorm]

so what you're saying is - i shouldn't worry about not covering 35mm to 45mm and just get the EF-S 10-22 and 28-135 USM IS?

thanks for the advice on macro as well!
joe

[weemannie]

so what you're saying is - i shouldn't worry about not covering 35mm to 45mm and just get the EF-S 10-22 and 28-135 USM IS?

thanks for the advice on macro as well!
joe

What I'm saying is, that for me, I personally, would not miss that range :)
I wouldn't want you sending a hitman after me because you missed a competition winner, as that range of zoom was unavailable to you!:lol:

[colourstorm]

OK, so I'll order my EF-S 10-22 and the EF 24-85 USM then.

feeling rather uncomfortable - it's the lure of the IS!

That'll mean I'll have £150 to play with - to start saving up for EF L 70-200, which I can get for just under £400 and is supposed to be very good...

So to begin with I'll be covering 16mm to 136mm which seems quite respectable.

If instead I bought the EF L 17-40 F4 which is supposedly amazing, I'd only be able to buy that lens on its own...

So, is this the best choice, bearing in mind I want to be 'future-proof' (one day want to get full-frame SLR)?

thanks again,
joe

[Andy_T]

As you have set your mind on the 10-22 and wide angle is thoroughly covered, why don't you look at the Tamron 28-75/2.8 XR DI instead?

Price should be the same, but as far as sharpness is concerned, it's in another league than the 24-85 or the 28-135. Bokeh is very pleasant - important for portraiture. Plus, it's a constant f/2.8 lens. The only possible beef with it is that it is not wide enough on the wide end ... but that will be no problem for you.

You are aware that at www.canonextrapromotion.com, there is a cashback voucher available (will most likely also come with your 20D) with a 35 GBP rebate on the 28-135 and a 70 GBP rebate on both the EF-S 10-22, 17-40/4.0 and 70-200/4.0, if you buy from authorized European dealers.

Did you take that already into your consideration?

Best regards,
Andy

[colourstorm]

Andy - the reason I was now going to go for the 24-85 was because if instead I went for a 28-xxx lens, I would be missing coverage of 35mm to 45mm (with crop factor taken into account).

Are Tamron XR DI lenses like the EF-S series - as in, only compatible with APS-C size frame d-slr's? I want all my lenses (with the exception of the 10-22 of course) to be forward-compatible with any future camera I might buy...

I don't understand was 'Bokeh' is yet!? What does that mean?!

I was aware of canon extra promotions - but had no idea I'd be getting vouchers with my 20D! I'd better get that first, then re-evaluate my options, it's just that I didn't want to buy a camera with no lens to use!

I suspect that even with the vouchers though, it'd be cheaper buying on eBay...

You said that my lenses not covering 35mm to 40mm would "be no problem" for me. However, weemannie said I should ensure those are covered.

Could you explain/give a bit more advice on why it would be a problem - if it wouldn't that'd be fantastic - would mean I could get much more affordable lenses...

thank you so much!
joe

*it'd cost me about £240 for the Tamron 28-75/2.8 XR DI from an eBay seller in Germany - problem is they don't speak english and i only speak english+french!

[RichardtheSane]

Seemslike you've had a lot of good advice on the lenses.

I couldn't help spotting you mentioned the 2Gb microdrive... what model is this?
There are some reallybad ones out there.... ones you really dont want!

[Andy_T]

Colourstorm

- you don't have to get the camera first, you can order the rebate booklet online (they send it to you)
- That means you can buy the camera used or from B+H, but if you buy new lenses, make sure that the dealer is an authorized dealer (there are a lot of authorized online dealers, just inquire before)
- Did I mention that there is also a cashback on the 420 EX flash?
- having 22 to 28 mm focal length not covered does not look like a major thing to me. If you want to take a wide angle picture, you will use your 10-22 ... if it is too short, you just crop the image a bit (8 MP ought to be sufficient for that).

The difference in sharpness means that if I want a tack sharp image (sharp when viewed at 100% crop), I either use my Canon EF 50/1.8 at f/2.8, my Tamron 28-75/2.8 at f/4.0 or my 18-55 at f/8.0. Both deliver about the same sharpness (according to my own, unscientific test). The two lenses you have as options will give very similar optical performance to the 18-55 kit lens. This is one step difference between the 50/1.8 and the 28-75/2.8, and another 2 steps difference between the 28-75/2.8 and the 18-55. That means that I need 4 times as much light for the 18-55 as for the 28-75/2.8 ... the difference between 1/50 and 1/200 second in shutterspeed.

This means that with the lenses you plan to buy, you don't have a problem on a sunny day, if you don't need shallow DOF. If I recall, England is not exactly known for the sunny days all year round... :rolleyes:

As far as bokeh is concerned, take a look at this thread (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=69785).

Best regards,
Andy

[Andy_T]

I couldn't help spotting you mentioned the 2Gb microdrive... what model is this?
There are some reallybad ones out there.... ones you really dont want!

Specifically, do not touch ANY 2.2 GB microdrive ... even with a flagpole.

Chances are that it is the notorious Magicstor 2.2 GB CRAPDRIVE rebadged. Hitachi and IBM are safe, but stay away from the other one (you will throw it away after losing images :rolleyes: )

[colourstorm]

thanks for all the help andy.
don't worry, it was a hitachi 2gb microdrive - but I'm spending £92 more to upgrade to Sandisk Ultra II solid state!
joe

[colourstorm]

I've had a bit of a think about what everyone's suggested - and if andy's right about 8mp being quality enough to crop instead of covering 35mm-45mm, I'm going for the Tamron 28-75 XR DI.

the Tamron XR DI 28-300 f/3.5-6.3 is only 5 euros more! but i presume this is an inferior quality lens?

is this sensible - just getting the 10-22 and 28-75? i'm going to have to purchase off a german it seems...

thanks again,
joe

[MrChad]

I never find 28mm to be wide enough for my zooms on my Drebel, I can tolerate 24mm but I think 28mm falls to narrow on the crop factor.

As is I've been looking at the Sigma 24-60mm, I'd love to have the Canon 24-70mm L but it doesn't make sense IMO for me to set that kind of cash on my shelf 90% for the hobby. I've been eyeing the Canon 24-85mm as well just because the EF will likely always be forward compatible vs. the Sigma. I have a Sigma 18-125mm DC instead of the kit lens and I figure I'd sell it with the Drebel one day, it wasn't too pricey for what you get.

But I too love IS and wish Canon would update the 28-135 to include 24mm on the wide end, even if the long end suffured.

The 17-85mm IS would be the ideal lens, but I'm not crazy about spending $600 on a lens I can't also use on my full frame cameras for film or digital full frame down the road if it ever becomes affordable in the consumer line.

If you don't own a 35mm full frame, I'd say get the 20D with the 17-85mm IS kit lens and pair that with one of the 70-200's, and look to the 10-22mm down the road, you may find 17mm is enough. And I don't think you'll miss a few mm between zooms either if you can't fill the gap completely.

[colourstorm]

mrchad - are you saying that I should go for the 17-85 IS USM, rather than the Tamron 28-75 XR DI?

the 17-85 is f/4-5.6! even the Tamron 28-300 XR DI is f/3.5-6.3!

everyone's telling me conflicting information!? aarrghh!

I really appreciate all the help and advice everyone's given - but it'd be great if someone could clarify it all and draw a conclusion!

thank you,
joe

[MrChad]

Well if you've never used an SLR you are going to have a hard time finding a lens since you really don't know what a 28mm FOV for example looks like on the 20D.

The Tamron 28-75mm and the 17-85mm IS are both excellent lenses, given the fact that you don't yet know your preferred style of lens, you may want to just try out the 20D kit with the 18-55 EFS lens before you spend larger $$$ on glass.

But since the 17-85mm IS was designed with the 20D in mind, a first lens as the 17-85mm IS isn't going to disappoint. both are great lenses, but I wouldn't place a huge order for a ton of lenses if you don't yet know what you specifically will need-desire in a lens.

I'll gladly take an f2.8 lens but it's not going to do me much good if I don't like the FOV I get with it. For my personal taste 28mm isn't wide enough for a genaral use lens on my DSLR, it's fine for me on my film body though.

[Andy_T]

I also pondered the 17-85, but to me it seems to be too expensive for what it offers.

Image quality similar to 28-135, on the wide end also to the (much less expensive) EF-S 18-55. I know that there are users here who swear by the lens and who get great images with it ... but that also applies to the 100$ 18-55 kit lens. It is just not in the same league as the 24-70/2.8 L. The Tamron is, image quality wise. Advantages of the 17-85 are IS and attractive focal range.

My suggestion is to use the 10-22 as wide angle lens and the 28-75/2.8 as light tele/walkaround zoom/portrait lens. I use the 28-75 in combination with the 18-55, the 50/1.8 and some manual focus longer lenses (Jupiter 9 85/2.0, 135/3.5 Sonnar). It works very well that way.

BTW, if you buy it from a German online dealer with the eBay 'buy-it-now' option, you are pretty much covered because of the European/German online sales laws.

Be advised that there are (few) users who got a bad copy of the lens (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=51644&highlight=tamron)and had to exchange it, but most users are happy with it (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=67200&highlight=tamron). There is even a poll (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=49000&page=2&pp=40&highlight=tamron+poll) on that issue :wink:

I bought my lens from eBay seller 'Mr. Schnaeppchen' (http://stores.ebay.de/MR-SCHNAEPPCHENS-PHOTOSHOP_W0QQssPageNameZl2QQtZkm), who has a lot of very good feedback and also a shop about 10 minutes from my home :wink: Needless to say, after reading the forum, I was also a bit afraid that I might get a bad copy, but I have yet to see one.

BTW, I haven't heard of a German seller yet who wouldn't speak English, especially if they are prepared to ship worldwide... If you need any help, please feel free to contact me, though. My German is quite acceptable :lol:

Best regards,
Andy

[RichardtheSane]

thanks for all the help andy.
don't worry, it was a hitachi 2gb microdrive - but I'm spending £92 more to upgrade to Sandisk Ultra II solid state!
joe

A wise and informed choice

[Sicily1918]

It's finally time for me to buy my EOS 20D (finishing exams) and am stuck as to what lenses I should buy, because the top 10 lenses list doesn't take into account APS-C sensor crop factor - which is 1.6x on the 20D.

As I love using wide angle (have finepix s602) and would love something even wider, I'm going to go for the EF-S 10-22 which gives me 16-35mm, but don't know what to get to go along with it.I've had this sucker since late Feb. It's fantastic and really sharp. Good choice.I can get the EF 24-85 USM on eBay for just under £200, and the EF 28-135 USM IS for £280. (both new)

If I get the EF 28-135 USM IS (45-216mm W/20D), my lenses wouldn't cover 35mm to 45mm, which I guess doing general photography you'd use quite often?

Would this be a problem - or am I wrong in thinking that 35-45mm is a fairly critical focal length to cover?I bought the 24-85 and that lens was great. Solid, light, sharp, pretty fast-focus. The only issue I ran into with it is that there were too many times that I needed a little more in the zoom deptartment which is why I traded it in for the 28-135. I looked through the viewfinder at 24mm and then moved it to 28mm to see if it made a big difference, and for me it wasn't really enough to not get the 135 with IS, although I was sad to let it go. Also, the 135 does decent macro photography (for a lens that doesn't specifically do that).

Try to consider future purchases, though; if you go for the 135, getting the 70-200 doesn't make much sense in the focal length department -- you're only getting 65mm more and you have 65mm (from 70-135) of overlap.

I'd do one of the following:


Get the 10-22, the 24-85 (or Tamron 28-75), and then save up for the 70-200.
Get the 10-22, the 28-135, and then save up for something in the 300 to 500mm range, such as the 100-400L or the 70-300DO (or equivalent Tamron/Sigma).
don't worry, it was a hitachi 2gb microdrive - but I'm spending £92 more to upgrade to Sandisk Ultra II solid state!Oh, good choice getting a Sandisk card instead of a microdrive. If you haven't already, you may want to consider two 1GB Ultra IIs instead (provided the cost is roughly the same). I say this because in the off-chance that the card dies or has 'issues' while on the field, you can simply swap cards and then fix the misbehaving one back home which lowers the chance of lost shots. At like ISO1600 the 1GB cards hold well over 200 shots each (~263 at ISO100), so you won't be hurting too much for 'film' ;)

[Andy_T]

In addition, you can continue to shoot with card #2, while your card #1 is being downloaded to a laptop/data wallet.

I also agree with sicily's advice regarding lens overlap. The 70-200/4.0 is a great sharp lens at a very attractive price (it's Canon's entry drug for the L addiction). If you plan to buy it this year, you can make use of the rebate program (so you know what you'll want to have as Christmas present :wink: )

Best regards,
Andy

[colourstorm]

It seems at last then, that not covering 35-45mm shouldn't stop me buying the Tamron - I doubt it'd give me too much grief. It'd be great to have a lens that's in the same league as an L lens!

I had a look at the EXIF info of my pictures, and it says the 'Focal Length' (whatever unit that is?) is normally within the range of 6-10mm! This is a Finepix s602 Zoom - any ideas what this means - or any SLR equivalent unit? If not, don't worry!

I've had the habit of trying to avoid using the zoom on my s602 - I'd somehow gotten it into my head that using it would degrade image quality!

Thanks for everyone's help - I really don't know what I'd do without it - I can't wait till the day when I'll finally be able to offer help and advice!

Regards,
Joe

[Andy_T]

Colourstorm,

a crop factor of 5x is perfectly normal for a compact digicam.
Their sensors are a lot smaller than the 20D's sensor.

You should not use DIGITAL zoom, but the OPTICAL zoom should be fine, as far as image quality is concerned.

Best regards,
Andy

[rklepper]

I am not an expert, although I have been taking photographs for 40 years+

I just purchsed the EF 28-135 IS USM for my digital rebel XT. I think words usually just reflect opinions, so here is a shot so you can judge for yourself.

http://www.iowalakes.edu/faculty/klepper/pictures/ruby01.htm

Doc